Tier 3 alternative to Wizard and/or cleric.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I'm going to be running Rise of the Runelords in late-September and I'm trying to compile a list of houserules to try and make the campaign as smooth as possible, and one thing that is worrying me is that my group will have a huge disparity in experience. Some of my players played a lot of 3.5 (and one in particular is a little "powergamey" with a penchant for spellcasters), but some of them have never played a d20 system before. Therefore I think that limiting class choices to a range (tier 3-tier 4) would help to keep intra-party balance.

For wizards I suppose Magician Bard is the best tier 3 alternative for a wizard,Druid is covered by the Hunter, but I'm having trouble for cleric, I mean Warpriest covers the militant cleric and Inquisitor covers the sneaky cleric, but I'm not sure which class would cover the supporting aspect of the class.

Am I missing any other Tier 1 classes that might be problematic?

(I just know that someone is going to suggest using Sphere of Powers, but I don't want to introduce a whole new system for my first long-term campaign (I'm already doing that by using PoW) plus the book isn't on the PFSRD so I wouldn't have an easy reference. So please do not suggest that.)

[Tuvarkz]

Magician Bard is Tier 2 actually. Just use the Magus, they can get some Sorc/Wizard spells through their Arcana.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I considered Magus for the Wizard replacement, but I want to keep the squishy-caster aspect of Wizards and being a Magus would defeat that purpose.

And would Magician Bard still be tier 2 if I limited his Expanded Repertoire to spells from the Wiz/Sorc list? That would mean no discount spell from the Summoner spell list. I would also change the casting ability to Int too.

[darksolitaire]

There's a Divine Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantDivineBard) in D&D 3.5 Core. Maybe porting that to PF would be a decent cleric replacement?

(Also, Savage Fey Bard for Druids :smallbiggrin:)

[Dusk Eclipse]

Divine bard is a good starting point, thanks for reminding me of it's existence.

[Kurald Galain]

I considered Magus for the Wizard replacement, but I want to keep the squishy-caster aspect of Wizards and being a Magus would defeat that purpose.

The Magus is equally squishy (or not-squishy) as the Bard, really. Same hit points, same armor ability, mostly the same defense spells even.

[Dusk Eclipse]

And now I feel like an idiot.

[Psyren]

Actually, Magus eventually gets to cast in medium and heavy armor so I would say they are a bit tougher than Bards. At the very least it makes a Strength-based build much more tenable.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Either way the Magus and Bard (to some degree) are still too "martial" to be a complete T3 wizard replacement, I want to try keep the fantasy of being a squishy caster who (in theory) has to stand behind a front-line to be able to bring arcane might to bear. Am I making sense?

[Eldaran]

Here's my list (http://www.bpfindley.com/Classes.html) of Pathfinder (and some 3.5) tier 3 classes. Has a bunch of homebrew ones that were mostly pulled from this forum with some modifications to fit Pathfinder or for my balance concerns. Also you can see them by role (http://www.bpfindley.com/Roles.html), if you're looking to fill something particular.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Wow, thank you that is very useful though I'll avoid the homebrew classes, in general I don't have anything against homebrew, but I don't want to a) overwhelm my new players and b) have to double check every class my players might find.

[Psyren]

Either way the Magus and Bard (to some degree) are still too "martial" to be a complete T3 wizard replacement, I want to try keep the fantasy of being a squishy caster who (in theory) has to stand behind a front-line to be able to bring arcane might to bear. Am I making sense?

Yeah, I totally understand. I like using Staff Hex Magus for this but even they can get a bit martial with all the staff-twirling.

Maybe the Occultist can do something sufficiently squishy and castery? I haven't looked too deeply into the OcA classes aside from Kineticist and Psychic.

[Eldaran]

No problem. I switched to tier 3 because although my players were very experienced we would run into issues of one player (on a tier 1/2 class) overshadowing others regardless of how optimized anyone else might be. It's been the best decision I ever made in regards to tabletop gaming, everyone has greatly enjoyed the change.

There are some roles lacking though, particularly the very supportive Arcane and Divine role. I'd still recommend the Priest (http://www.bpfindley.com/Priest.html) and Magician (http://www.bpfindley.com/Magician.html) to fill those roles, even if you want to avoid homebrew because they're relatively simple and it's difficult to find the concept in tier 3.

[Cyrocloud]

For the wizard replacement I'd highly suggest the occultist from Occult Adventures. If you're not familiar with the class, it's an Int based med BaB, 6 lvl caster that focuses on using implements to cast magic. It starts with 2 and gets total of 7 implements through the course of it's levels. Each implement represents a school of magic, and when it is chosen you gain 1 spell known per spell level from the that magic school, the implements also give special abilities ranging from allowing summoned monsters to last longer, to ability increases to divination abilities. An example of an implement would be like the finger bone from a saint would be a necromancy implement, or a crystal ball for divination. The class its self is very versatile and can go in many different directions depending on the implements and feats chosen.

It also has several archetypes that may be of interest for this character. One is the Shiar, it replaces implements with elemental genies (small elementals with the young simple template, so tiny sized) that follow you around. You gain a total of 3, each one is tied both a school of magic and an elemental wizard school (I believe they are in APG), and you gain certain abilities to make the genies larger and such. Another one you might be interested is the tome eater that uses a book for all it's implements and can eat spells and scrolls, I don't quite remember all the benefits of doing so off hand, but I do remember people saying this is the closest you can get to playing Robin from the new Super smash brothers. The last one that would also fit off the top of my head is the Necrocultist, which is probably the caster heaviest of the archetypes, though it does focus on necromancy and gives many bonuses to that it doesn't stop you from taking implements from other schools .

[Tambourine]

Take a look at the 3rd-party Spheres of Power book. It has a bunch of approximately tier 3 spellcasters of assorted themes.

It's also going to get some secondary support going forward by Dreamscarred Press in their own 3rd-party material (see the Steelforge playtest thread for examples).

[Dusk Eclipse]

I'm going to be running Rise of the Runelords in late-September and I'm trying to compile a list of houserules to try and make the campaign as smooth as possible, and one thing that is worrying me is that my group will have a huge disparity in experience. Some of my players played a lot of 3.5 (and one in particular is a little "powergamey" with a penchant for spellcasters), but some of them have never played a d20 system before. Therefore I think that limiting class choices to a range (tier 3-tier 4) would help to keep intra-party balance.

For wizards I suppose Magician Bard is the best tier 3 alternative for a wizard,Druid is covered by the Hunter, but I'm having trouble for cleric, I mean Warpriest covers the militant cleric and Inquisitor covers the sneaky cleric, but I'm not sure which class would cover the supporting aspect of the class.

Am I missing any other Tier 1 classes that might be problematic?

(I just know that someone is going to suggest using Sphere of Powers, but I don't want to introduce a whole new system for my first long-term campaign (I'm already doing that by using PoW) plus the book isn't on the PFSRD so I wouldn't have an easy reference. So please do not suggest that.)


Take a look at the 3rd-party Spheres of Power book. It has a bunch of approximately tier 3 spellcasters of assorted themes.

It's also going to get some secondary support going forward by Dreamscarred Press in their own 3rd-party material (see the Steelforge playtest thread for examples).

Emphasis mine.

[Andreaz]

You want the magus to stay squishy, default to an archetype in light armor, like Staff Magus. It even rewards you for using spell staves.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I'll consider it, I haven't give much thought to that particular archetype (all my Magus tend to default to Bladebound and/or hex crafter)

[NightbringerGGZ]

I would second the Occultist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/occult-adventures/occult-classes/occultist) for a Wizard/Sorcerer replacement. Note, this isn't necessarily a less complicated class for new players, but it won't be as potentially game breaking.

I would note that the Summoner has a lot of potential to overshadow the party, even if you go with the Unchained version of the class. Having played one in a low-optimization group it is possible to "downgrade" it, but some GMs ban this class outright.

For the caster cleric, I would just allow an Oracle and ban Paragon Surge (or go with the FAQ ruling on the spell). Ya you get 9th level casting, but newer players going the "Priest" route are generally looking for a healing class. A Life Oracle is never going to break a game, and might just make the rest of the party feel like they can take risks and really shine.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Downgrade 9th level casters to the spell progression of 6th level casters like the bard. (Although you might boost spells/day slightly to compensate for the lack of martial ability in the case of the wizard and sorcerer.) Boom, casters now in line with other casters. If you want to cut cleric out wholesale... perhaps Skald, casting from a divine list?

[Dusk Eclipse]

That is definitely an option, but I wanted to see if there was a less drastic measure than gutting out the classes themselves.

[The Vagabond]

Simple- ban a ton of spells. Maybe even just the CRB. I personally would just ban every spell over level 5 unless also on a 6 level casters list.
Maybe implement words of power to do a bit more nerfing, and to make it less powerful and easier for the newer guys.
The classes are their spells- but new folks don't entirely realize the degree.
Also- five free metamagic feats to fill up the higher slots.

From what I heard, spheres of power is actually better for newer players than vatican casting, so it might prove attractive for the newbies- and while you might not like adding a new subsytem, it might help.

[Kurald Galain]

From what I heard, spheres of power is actually better for newer players than vatican casting, so it might prove attractive for the newbies- and while you might not like adding a new subsytem, it might help.

Vatican casting? That's new :smallbiggrin:

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Uhh... how has nobody suggested Warpriest for the cleric replacement? They are literally clerics with 6 levels of spells that have superior combat class features, disregarding spells.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Uhh... how has nobody suggested Warpriest for the cleric replacement? They are literally clerics with 6 levels of spells that have superior combat class features, disregarding spells.
Good question.

I mean Warpriest covers the militant cleric

[noob]

Beguilers are tier three and can be all the mind control part of wizards.
Dread Necromancer are tier three casters too I believe.

[Dusk Eclipse]

:Points towards the Pathfinder Tag:

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Well yeah, but inquisitors are different beasts than either the cleric or the warpriest. Warpriest literally uses the same list as cleric, just with the top 3 levels of casting lopped off. Not even the magus does that, technically.

[grarrrg]

Beguilers are tier three and can be all the mind control part of wizards.
Dread Necromancer are tier three casters too I believe.

:Points towards the Pathfinder Tag:

In his defense I'd like to point out that he IS a noob.

[Kaidinah]

My vote is for spheres of power. It is an easier system to learn and it builds just like a martial does.

[Extra Anchovies]

Investigator would probably work fine if they could choose between alchemy and prepared casting from the sor/wiz list, although the latter might put them a bit on the strong side. Might even want to give them the option of arcanist-style casting, and create an investigator talent that gives them an arcanist exploit (powered by inspiration points). Investigator also covers the Psychic via the Psychic Detective archetype.

Characters who want a bloodline could take the sorcerer VMC or play a Bloodrager or Eldritch Scion Magus.

Witch is probably fine just getting a 6th-casting progression (maybe with +1 spell per day of each level), because Hexes are still really strong. Same goes for Shaman. I'd do the same with Oracle, too (switch to 6th-casting, give +1 spell/day/level), in case someone wants a 6th-casting alternative to the Warpriest.


My vote is for spheres of power. It is an easier system to learn and it builds just like a martial does.
(I just know that someone is going to suggest using Sphere of Powers, but I don't want to introduce a whole new system for my first long-term campaign (I'm already doing that by using PoW) plus the book isn't on the PFSRD so I wouldn't have an easy reference. So please do not suggest that.)

[daryen]

I agree with Grod. To make a Tier three Wizard, Cleric, or Druid, simply replace their spell progressions with that of the Magus. Leave everything else the same. You do have to live with the "+1" for each spell level being implied for Cleric (or Domain Druid), but you shouldn't have to change anything else to make this work. (Doing this for Sorcerer is trickier, as you have to adjust the levels where they get their Bloodline spells. But even that should be fairly easy.)

The advantage of doing this is that you do have to worry about getting something that is kinda like, but not quite, the same as a Tier 3 Wizard, Cleric, or Druid. If you want your squishy Tier 3 Wizard, you get your Tier 3 squishy wizard without having to deal with the other effects of using a Magician Bard or Magus. And if you are going to modify the replacement class anyway, why not just make this simple, fundamental change to the base class and run with it? Same for Druid. Sure, Hunter is kinda like a Druid, but only if you are focused on your animal companion. If you want a Tier 3 shape changing Druid with a Domain, Hunter doesn't cut it. So, just take the Tier 3 shape changing Druid with a Domain and a 6-level spell progression. Same for the Cleric.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I just want to see if there are any options already set into the game before modifying the base classes; if I don't find anything that works for me I'll probably end up modifying the T1/2 classes a you guys have suggested.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Skald with "arcane spells" crossed out and "divine spells" written in in crayon does okay for a leader/buffer cleric. As for the wizard... you could replace him wholesale with the alchemist and hit most of the same flavor points, if not mechanics.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Skald with "arcane spells" crossed out and "divine spells" written in in crayon does okay for a leader/buffer cleric. As for the wizard... you could replace him wholesale with the alchemist and hit most of the same flavor points, if not mechanics.

Skald, however, is a metal class. The word "divine" would be written in blood.

[ericgrau]

The thing is you want spells like lesser restoration, raise dead and so on ASAP. Fly, see invisibility and so-on too. In general you want 3rd level spells ASAP.

Try this:
Wizards and clerics get spells per day as a bard 1 level higher than them. They get additional school specialization and domain spells as normal (but with the same delayed progression). Band-aid and utility spells are at 2/3 their normal level, rounding down, but to a minimum of level 1. This should be obvious for most spells but some are fuzzy. The DM has the final say on what are band-aid and utility spells. Generally if the spell is also good for something else, especially offensive combat, it doesn't count.

This has the added benefit that many scrolls and potions will be much cheaper. Expect potions of spider climb and lesser restoration to become crazy popular if your players ever figure it out. Scrolls of augury and see invisibility too. If that's something you don't want, then you may want to cost them at their normal spell level. But it helps bring more utility to the party even without a wizard or cleric so you may want to leave it alone. If that's something you really want, give out the tip to your players that 2nd level has tons of great utility spells that suddenly got cheap. This won't make 1st level utility obsolete either, because variety is great for utility and they can get both.

That way you keep all the essentials without any delay. And for the combat spells it's hard for any quick and dirty casting change to be too weak for party balance. Even if magic is weaker, magic is so different that it will almost always be helpful regardless. The wizard and cleric will feel more like support characters and perhaps a little weak if not played well, but never useless.