Help on Some Druid Builds

[Kesnit]

My wife's PC (in a game I'm not in) died in the last session and she has asked me to help her build some replacements. I've got most of the builds put together, but am looking for advice on spell lists. All builds use the Spontaneous Caster ACF.

All stats are rolled. No point buy.

She is using an alternate Monk from Dragon called the Chaos Monk. At low levels, there is almost no difference from a PHB Monk.

STR 17
DEX 20 (with Gloves of DEX +2)
CON 16
INT 16
WIS 18
CHA 16

Other items
Bracers of Armor +2
Necklace of Natural Attack +1
Witchlight Reservoir

She is also using the Shapeshifter ACF for this build.

She knows 6 0-level spells and has already selected (1) Cure Minor, (2) Mending, (3) Detect Magic, and (4) Detect Poison.
She knows 3 1-level spells (not counting SNA I) and has picked Speak with Animals. She knows 1 2-level spell (not counting SNA II) and has chosen Barkskin.

Any advice for spells she should take now/consider in the future when she levels?



STR 14
DEX 20 (with Gloves of DEX +2)
CON 17
INT 15
WIS 18
CHA 11

Other items
+1 Deadly Precision Dagger
+1 Dagger
+1 Studded Leather
She needs to decide how to spend the rest of her gold. Probably on weapon crystals.

6 0-level
4 1-level
2 2-level
Only SNA III for 3-level.

Again, advice on spells to choose? I suspect they will be largely the same.

Risen Demon is an LA+1 race in a 3rd party book that the DM allows. +2 WIS, +2 CHA, -2 CON. Medium. Treated as both their alignment and the opposite alignment for purposes of spells. (In this case, NG and NE.) Native Outsiders. Darkvision 60'. Assorted bonuses.

STR 14
DEX 16
CON 12
INT 12
WIS 20
CHA 16

The character uses a sling for attacks, but is intended for buff/debuff. Again using shapeshifter ACF. She knows up to 3-level spells. Recommendations?

[Darrin]

You need to specify what sourcebooks are allowed. Online articles/Dragon Magazine?



She is using an alternate Monk from Dragon called the Chaos Monk. At low levels, there is almost no difference from a PHB Monk.


The Chaos Monk gets invited to more interesting parties. Can also multiclass with Barbarian (Pounce!) and Savage Bard.



She knows 6 0-level spells and has already selected (1) Cure Minor, (2) Mending, (3) Detect Magic, and (4) Detect Poison.


I'd probably throw create water and dawn (SC) in there somewhere.



She knows 3 1-level spells (not counting SNA I) and has picked Speak with Animals. She knows 1 2-level spell (not counting SNA II) and has chosen Barkskin.[/spoiler]

Any advice for spells she should take now/consider in the future when she levels?


eggynack's the SME on treehuggers, should be along shortly. My usual Druidzilla advice (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?221979-Druid-Help&p=12183941#post12183941).



6 0-level
4 1-level
2 2-level
Only SNA III for 3-level.

Again, advice on spells to choose? I suspect they will be largely the same.

0th: cure minor wounds, create water, dawn (SC), detect magic, guidance, mending
1st: impeding stones (Cityscape), instant of power (Forge of War), produce flame, wood wose (SC)
2nd: alicorn lance (Silver Marches Web Enhancement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20020719a)), daggerspell stance (SC), frost weapon (Frostburn), mass snake's swiftness (SC)
3rd: I'd probably swap SNA III for conjure ice beast III (Frostburn).


The character uses a sling for attacks, but is intended for buff/debuff. Again using shapeshifter ACF. She knows up to 3-level spells. Recommendations?

Focusing on buffs/debuffs:

0th: cure minor wounds, create water, dawn (SC), detect magic, guidance, mending
1st: cloudburst (SC), faerie fire, impeding stones (Cityscape), instant of power (Forge of War), snowsight* (Frostburn)
2nd: blinding spittle, frost weapon (Frostburn), mass snake's swiftness (SC), obscuring snow* (Frostburn)
3rd: dispel magic, heart of water (Complete Mage), sleet storm, spirit jaws (SC) [edit: thanks eggynack]

* = Snowglobe of Murder, 30' radius sphere of white-out visibility where the entire party can see and all of their enemies can't. Lasts 1 hour/CL.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Don't use Shapeshift, it's a direct nerf that can't be used with Natural Spell or Wilding Clasps.

On that first one, use the +0 LA Tiefling (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) and never spend a level on it (which is allowed with those (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a)), or use Lesser Tiefling from the back of PGtF (Humanoid instead of Outsider, no LA). Also, get rid of the Monk levels, plan to get a Monk's Belt with a Wilding Clasp, and just stick to Druid.

On the second one, if she's going into Daggerspell Shaper then she should begin play as a Spellthief 1/ Druid 5/ Daggerspell Shaper 1. The Spellthief level enables her to use wands of any Wizard spells of the schools that class gets access to, namely a Wand of Waithstrike kept in a wand chamber in her weapon. Also consider using Whisper Gnome (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3) for this, you didn't specify a race for this one.

On the third one, the Lesser Planetouched variant in PGtF could probably be applied to that race, making it a Humanoid with a +0 LA. Again, don't use Shapeshift, get Natural Spell. Take Exalted Companion as one of her bonus exalted feats from VoP, along with Natural Bond. Get a Celestial Dire Eagle (RoS), she'll have it at just Level -1 thanks to Natural Bond, and it will be good aligned so it should also have VoP.

Check this Druid Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0) for good spell choices. If a link at wizards.com doesn't work, replace 'www' with 'archive' and it should work fine.

[eggynack]

To get this out of the way quickly, because it's not strictly pertinent to the core question of list, a lot of the build decisions you've made here are pretty bad. And by a lot, I mean just about anything that takes you away from druidness. As a basic rule of thumb, things that make you better at doing your druid stuff are good (so stepping out of class for a bit to boost casting can be fine), while things that move you away from that are bad, including monk levels, rogue levels, daggerspell shaper, races that aren't LA +0, shapeshift, and so on. It's your prerogative to do that stuff if you want, but you seem to be seeking optimization advice, and that's the optimization advice I have to give.



She knows 6 0-level spells and has already selected (1) Cure Minor, (2) Mending, (3) Detect Magic, and (4) Detect Poison.
As Darrin notes, create water is very good, and dawn at least decent. and I really like fire eyes (MotW, 88).



Any advice for spells she should take now/consider in the future when she levels?
In addition to the spells listed, you may also want to consider entangle, because it's excellent, and maybe snowshoes (SpC, 194), to play up that speedy monk thing. For seconds, kelpstrand (SpC, 128 hasn't come up yet, so that's something you should strongly consider. Not exactly sure what exactly you want on this build, in terms of overall plan.


Again, advice on spells to choose? I suspect they will be largely the same.
It's similar, but it seems like you have something of a stealth focus, given the rogue thing. Camouflage (SpC, 43) can be quite good here, and fire eyes is even more important than before.



The character uses a sling for attacks, but is intended for buff/debuff. Again using shapeshifter ACF. She knows up to 3-level spells. Recommendations?
There are some pretty good third level buffs, including greater magic fang, the already noted heart of water, and the thus far not noted primal instincts (DrM, 72). For debuffs, I kinda like icelance (SpC, 119) and spiritjaws (SpC, 202), with sleet storm only kinda qualifying. It's worth note, however, that in contradiction to Darrin's claims, dispel magic isn't a third level spell for druids, but a fourth.

Anyways, if you want more druidish stuff, then I can always send over my handbook, which is just about leaving the realm of being in progress and entering the realm of being done. There are a few hundred pages of editing left to go through though, so you may be better off getting it in the here and now rather than waiting, if you seek out good spell information.

[Kesnit]

You need to specify what sourcebooks are allowed. Online articles/Dragon Magazine?

The DM hates the Forgotten Realms-specific books, so none of those. Online or Dragon are OK, so long as I can find and print the details.


I'd probably throw create water and dawn (SC) in there somewhere.
0th: cure minor wounds, create water, dawn (SC), detect magic, guidance, mending
1st: impeding stones (Cityscape), instant of power (Forge of War), produce flame, wood wose (SC)
2nd: alicorn lance (Silver Marches Web Enhancement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20020719a)), daggerspell stance (SC), frost weapon (Frostburn), mass snake's swiftness (SC)

Thanks.


3rd: I'd probably swap SNA III for conjure ice beast III (Frostburn).

SNA III (and all the SNA's) is a free spell for a spontaneous Druid. It doesn't count against the spells known.


Focusing on buffs/debuffs:

0th: cure minor wounds, create water, dawn (SC), detect magic, guidance, mending
1st: cloudburst (SC), faerie fire, impeding stones (Cityscape), instant of power (Forge of War), snowsight* (Frostburn)
2nd: blinding spittle, frost weapon (Frostburn), mass snake's swiftness (SC), obscuring snow* (Frostburn)
3rd: dispel magic, heart of water (Complete Mage), sleet storm, spirit jaws (SC) [edit: thanks eggynack]

I'll pass those along to her.


Don't use Shapeshift, it's a direct nerf that can't be used with Natural Spell or Wilding Clasps.

Not my choice. My wife wants to use it because having an endless list of things to wild shape into overwhelms her. She specifically asked me to trade off WS for something else.


On that first one, use the +0 LA Tiefling (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) and never spend a level on it (which is allowed with those (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a)), or use Lesser Tiefling from the back of PGtF (Humanoid instead of Outsider, no LA).

PGtF is banned by the GM. I'll point the link out to her.


Also, get rid of the Monk levels, plan to get a Monk's Belt with a Wilding Clasp, and just stick to Druid.

Can't afford it. The party is only 7th level, and she has to build with WBL (19,000.) Also, she wants the WIS-to-AC and Evasion.


On the second one, if she's going into Daggerspell Shaper then she should begin play as a Spellthief 1/ Druid 5/ Daggerspell Shaper 1. The Spellthief level enables her to use wands of any Wizard spells of the schools that class gets access to, namely a Wand of Waithstrike kept in a wand chamber in her weapon. Also consider using Whisper Gnome (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3) for this, you didn't specify a race for this one.

Race is Human. WRT Spellthief, again, she wants Evasion (which is why there's 2 levels of Rogue). Also the DM is a bit of a jerk (IMO) and WILL screw with her ability to steal spells. She's also out of gold to buy a wand.


Take Exalted Companion as one of her bonus exalted feats from VoP, along with Natural Bond.

Good point.


Get a Celestial Dire Eagle (RoS), she'll have it at just Level -1 thanks to Natural Bond,

Wouldn't it be at her level, since Dire Eagle is Druid level -3 and Natural bond is Druid level+3?


and it will be good aligned so it should also have VoP.

The DM will never allow that.


To get this out of the way quickly, because it's not strictly pertinent to the core question of list, a lot of the build decisions you've made here are pretty bad. And by a lot, I mean just about anything that takes you away from druidness. As a basic rule of thumb, things that make you better at doing your druid stuff are good (so stepping out of class for a bit to boost casting can be fine), while things that move you away from that are bad, including monk levels, rogue levels, daggerspell shaper, races that aren't LA +0, shapeshift, and so on. It's your prerogative to do that stuff if you want, but you seem to be seeking optimization advice, and that's the optimization advice I have to give.

I'm not so much looking for "optimization" (The group she plays with is so unoptimized that anyone who reads this forum regularly would go hide in a corner and cry.) Just spells that would work for self-buffing (for the Monk/Druid and Rogue/Druid) that are buried in places we can't find. Or really good buff/debuff spells.

I, personally, dislike playing spontaneous casters because choices are set. She likes it because it saves her from having to sort through her spell list every day. (Yes, I know she can make multiple lists, but having all the Druid spells to choose from is overwhelming.) The trade off being if she picks a bad spell, she's stuck with it. We're trying to avoid the issue of "why did I pick this spell? It is awful and I never use it." Which is why I asked for help in picking useful spells. :smallsmile:


Anyways, if you want more druidish stuff, then I can always send over my handbook, which is just about leaving the realm of being in progress and entering the realm of being done. There are a few hundred pages of editing left to go through though, so you may be better off getting it in the here and now rather than waiting, if you seek out good spell information.

Let me ask my wife. She may want to see it, or she may decide it would be too much to go through.

[eggynack]

Wouldn't it be at her level, since Dire Eagle is Druid level -3 and Natural bond is Druid level+3?
Celestial applies another reduction.


I'm not so much looking for "optimization" (The group she plays with is so unoptimized that anyone who reads this forum regularly would go hide in a corner and cry.) Just spells that would work for self-buffing (for the Monk/Druid and Rogue/Druid) that are buried in places we can't find. Or really good buff/debuff spells.

I, personally, dislike playing spontaneous casters because choices are set. She likes it because it saves her from having to sort through her spell list every day. (Yes, I know she can make multiple lists, but having all the Druid spells to choose from is overwhelming.) The trade off being if she picks a bad spell, she's stuck with it. We're trying to avoid the issue of "why did I pick this spell? It is awful and I never use it." Which is why I asked for help in picking useful spells. :smallsmile:

Fair enough. Druids are a lot of book keeping, I have to agree. Still, on the wild shape thing, you don't necessarily have to make use of the staggering range of choices possible. Just pick out something like desmodu hunting bat form for casting, fleshraker form for beating down, and maybe revisit those at 8th. The same goes for casting, actually, because she may actually be better off with a prepared caster with a perfectly fixed list. You get a greater degree of versatility that way, and it also allows her to pick up sanctified spells, which is very relevant, especially for the VoP character.

However, those weren't my only point of contention. I'm not saying you have to ditch them, but these characters would actually be better at their designated roles were they to swap out the rogue and monk levels for more druid. The pure druid is better at hitting stuff in the face than the monk/druid, and the pure druid is likely better at stealth than the rogue/druid. It's just how druids roll.


Let me ask my wife. She may want to see it, or she may decide it would be too much to go through.
I'll PM it then, under the core assumption that I don't especially need to be party to that decision making process. There is a decent chance that it is too much to go through, given that it's apparently 577 pages, but it's a significantly less daunting thing to just check out the pertinent sections. I tend to offer it because it has more information than I can plausibly hand out in a single forum post.

Edit: Putting that claim in perspective, the section of the handbook that stretches from the top of the spells section to the end of thirds runs 188281 characters (33110 words), which means that I think it runs beyond the maximum character length for posts, if I'm remembering that one correctly. Man, that's going to take forever to copy over.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Wouldn't it be at her level, since Dire Eagle is Druid level -3 and Natural bond is Druid level+3?

The DM will never allow that.

Exalted Companion allows her to get a Celestial version, which carries an additional Level -1, otherwise it would have been at her level with Natural Bond.

If the PC has VoP, and the PC's companion is good/exalted, then there shouldn't be a reason to prohibit the companion from also having VoP. It's generally an issue when the PC doesn't have VoP and would have purchased gear for the companion. Since she'll have an intelligent companion, since it's a Celestial creature, it will need a share of the loot for gear, i.e. a portion of her share that would have been donated. This goes against what VoP says about giving others a portion of her share, so it would only be fair for the companion to also have VoP.