Optimize me a Mind Leech!!! (Ummm... if you don't mind?)

[Jowgen]

Mind Leech. That slimy little symbtiont worm from Fiend Folio (p. 217). I see a world of potential and wanna see just how much use it is possible to get out of one.:smallbiggrin:

I don't think the thing requires any sort of up-dating to 3.5, and acquiring one shouldn't be too hard. Easiest method I found is having your friendly neighborhood wizard Call you a water-element creature version via Lesser Planar Binding for 450 gp. If anyone has any better ideas, I am all ears.:smallsmile:

First order of business: making sense of the screwy rules involved with this thing.

A Mind-leech literally sits in your brain, but it clearly has the ability to use its SLAs on things outside your brain, which is weird because LoE/LoS. I think the RAI in this instance is that it can use the host's senses/body for such purposes. I don't see how anyone could have LoE / LoS to the thing in return; but I might be overlooking something. Stuff's weird. :smallannoyed:

Also, just to make sure: having one and being the dominant one in the symbiotic relationship allows you to decide how it acts on any given go, right?:smallconfused:

Second order of business: how to minimize the draw-backs of its use.

The thing tries to control the host and deals him Int damage when it uses its SLAs. Now, the Int damage can be countered effectively with a Binder dip for Naberius, but maybe someone knows a more effective way of doing it? The Ego thing seems a bit harder, I mean, how does one ensure Dominance in the Symbiotic relationship and/or avoid Ego-conflicts effectively? I am out of my niche-rule-depth here.

Third order of business: How to make it better at what it's meant to do.

The Mind-Leech's SLAs work like Spells cast by level 10 sorcerer, making their DCs scale with Charisma. Also, has Spell Penetration as a feat, so it has a CL of 12 for SR purposes going for it, which is something. Now, how could one increase the Cha/DCs/CL on a Fine worm sitting in your brain (i.e. I doubt it could wear a cloak of charisma :smalltongue: )?

Also, it has a +7 modifier on any knowledge check and Spellcraft, perhaps there is a way of boosting this as well for walking-library purposes?

Fourth order of business: how to make it useful for things it isn't really meant to do

The Leech gets its own actions, every turn. Admittedly, they're effectively only mental actions, but there might be something that can be done with this? E.g.: to what extend could one expect it to be able to use the Aid-another action?


That's all the optimization-approaches I can think of right now, but I'm obviously open to new stuff :smallsmile:

[daremetoidareyo]

First off, I like your moxie.

We need to know more about the life cycle and reproduction of a mind leech so we can establish the basic goals of the creature. It may not want to dominate and charm monster whomever the host desires. It probably only does that to things that it, itself views as threats. So what does a mind leech feed on, how does it reproduce, and what is the optimal placement of mind leech eggs or babies? Answering these questions will allow us to figure out the mind leech for roleplaying.

Considering the language used in the beginning, it appears that personality conflicts will mostly occur mechanically. Symbiont wants to charm the wrong person, or PC wants the symbiont to charm someone that it doesn't want to. That said, all you need to do is pump that will save until it can reliably beat a DC 16 (the ego score). This implies that the PC can direct the symbiont to use its abilities on his turn. This is the assumption that I am going with, as the thing prevents you from using your neck magic item body slot.

CRAFTY DM WARNING: if you fail your will save, your mind leech can use your brain to dominate YOU, in which case, your going to be failing lots of saves of your own "volition."

A bard with inspire spellpower (races of stone) feat can get that caster level up one. Take the Music of the outer spheres feat from LoM to add another +2 to that mind leeches DCs. Throw doomspeak on this guy for a -10 to to will saves of others. Actually take the iron will feat for reasons other than prestige pre-reqs. Bard is a good option as it enjoys intelligence but doesn't need it. When prestiging out, you NEED to look at the will save column.

Bard 8/sublime chord 1/dark scholar 1 (take ten ranks of knowledge history)
Put 12 into wisdom and you can always make your ego check due to your will save bonus (die roll minimum 1 + 15).

If you go divine bard, research the lightning bolt spell, and then finish up with hexer 10.

[noob]

The symbiote might start gaining levels there is no rule against that.
it might gain levels in sorcerer making him better.

[Jack_Simth]

The symbiote might start gaining levels there is no rule against that.
it might gain levels in sorcerer making him better.

There's no rule against it... but it also doesn't have an LA, which means while the DM can make one as a classed monster, you as the player can't readily make it happen (although you can see about locating such a beast).

As to dealing with the ability damage... Strongheart Vest, Magic of Incarnum, available via the Shape Soulmeld feat from the same book. Reduce all ability damage by 1. That covers everything except the Leech's Dominate Person ability. Add one point of essential to the Strongheart Vest (Bonus Essentia feat from the same book gives you two points to play with), and the Dominate Person is now at will too.

As to Ego:
You want a nice Will save bonus via whatever source, and then the Pride domain ability... which can be gotten by way of the Planar Touchstone Feat, picking the Catalogues of Enlightenment.

So for three feats and some investment in Willpower, you can have Dominate Person at will....

Edit:
Now, if you really want to optimize, pick up Leadership, for an Elan Psion wilder cohort. Make sure the cohort takes Assume Supernatural Ability (Savage Species) to pick up the Share Spells symbiont trait, and then hire a Polymorph Any Object to turn your cohort into a Mind Leech. You now have an extra buff every round in battle at no action cost. If your cohort picks up the fix-it spells, you can also seem to break out of effects that you REALLY shouldn't be able to (as your cohort fixes it after you've been disabled). Granted, you've probably gone through a few feats to get here, but it's handy. Oh and yes: Using your cohort also has the added bonus of needing a lot less in terms of Ego checks.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

If you don't mind being evil, there's a 9th level spell in the Book of Vile Darkness that, while I don't like to say the name on this forum, allows you to crack open someone's mind and rewrite all their experiences, beliefs, etc. You could use this to mold the Mind Leech to be a devoted follower of any belief or cause you support. That should keep the Mind Leech for competing with you through Ego...and should also ensure that it acts when and how you want it too.

To optimize the creature itself...I'd do the technique suggested above, then find a way to convert the creature into a Ghost. There's nothing in the Attach ability the Mind Leech has that specifies it must be corporeal to function, and the Ghost template gets you some nice bonus features, including an increased Charisma for save DCs, Telekinesis at caster level 12, and a moan that may panic nearby enemies.

There are probably other spells / effects to consider for optimization, but the above would be a decent start.

[Jowgen]

First off, I like your moxie.

Why, thank you. :smallredface:


We need to know more about the life cycle and reproduction of a mind leech so we can establish the basic goals of the creature. It may not want to dominate and charm monster whomever the host desires. It probably only does that to things that it, itself views as threats. So what does a mind leech feed on, how does it reproduce, and what is the optimal placement of mind leech eggs or babies? Answering these questions will allow us to figure out the mind leech for roleplaying.

Okay, things we have to go on: Illithid in origin, lives Solitary, highly intelligent, usually Lawful evil (like an illithid), can not advance in terms of HD. I'd wager their motivation in life is to bond with as powerful as a creature as possible so they can live as lawful evil Illithids do. As for how they propagate, that depends on how their origin is fluffed by a DM (e.g. if they're purposeful illithid creations, they'll lack the ability to multiply on their own).


Considering the language used in the beginning, it appears that personality conflicts will mostly occur mechanically. Symbiont wants to charm the wrong person, or PC wants the symbiont to charm someone that it doesn't want to. That said, all you need to do is pump that will save until it can reliably beat a DC 16 (the ego score). This implies that the PC can direct the symbiont to use its abilities on his turn. This is the assumption that I am going with, as the thing prevents you from using your neck magic item body slot.

Agreed.


A bard with inspire spellpower (races of stone) feat can get that caster level up one. Take the Music of the outer spheres feat from LoM to add another +2 to that mind leeches DCs. Throw doomspeak on this guy for a -10 to to will saves of others. Actually take the iron will feat for reasons other than prestige pre-reqs. Bard is a good option as it enjoys intelligence but doesn't need it. When prestiging out, you NEED to look at the will save column.

Bard 8/sublime chord 1/dark scholar 1 (take ten ranks of knowledge history)
Put 12 into wisdom and you can always make your ego check due to your will save bonus (die roll minimum 1 + 15).

If you go divine bard, research the lightning bolt spell, and then finish up with hexer 10.

Solid.


The symbiote might start gaining levels there is no rule against that.
it might gain levels in sorcerer making him better.

Its advancement column has a dash in it, which to my knowledge means no advancing by HD or by character class for the DM, and the lack of LA was already covered.


Strongheart Vest, Magic of Incarnum, available via the Shape Soulmeld feat from the same book. Reduce all ability damage by 1. That covers everything except the Leech's Dominate Person ability. Add one point of essential to the Strongheart Vest (Bonus Essentia feat from the same book gives you two points to play with), and the Dominate Person is now at will too.

Great, we have a Naberius alternative :smallbiggrin:

As for Pride domain, that's still a 1/400 chance of being controlled. It's good, but it's not perfect. On the bright side, it's a great effect to have anyway; so it's certainly practical at least.

Also, that Leadership idea is just evil. I'm talking Red Fel evil. *shudders*


9th level spell in the Book of Vile Darkness

Ah. I guess that would work. Failing that, I suppose other brainwashing methods might work as well (e.g. Redeemery).

I don't think the Ghost idea can work, due to the "retains all the special attacks of the base creature, although those relying on physical contact do not affect nonethereal creatures." clause. "Secreting anaestetic" and "burrowing through flesh" seem like decidedly physiclal contact things.



Seems like we're off to a good start here :smallsmile:

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I don't think the Ghost idea can work, due to the "retains all the special attacks of the base creature, although those relying on physical contact do not affect nonethereal creatures." clause. "Secreting anaestetic" and "burrowing through flesh" seem like decidedly physiclal contact things.

Solution? Etherealness. Play a spellcaster. Or play a Ghost yourself. :smalltongue:

[Jack_Simth]

As for Pride domain, that's still a 1/400 chance of being controlled. It's good, but it's not perfect. On the bright side, it's a great effect to have anyway; so it's certainly practical at least. Well, there's also Martial Study (Tome of Battle, page 31) for Moment of Perfect Mind (Tome of Battle, page 64) to replace a will save with a Concentration check (which explicitly doesn't auto-fail on a 1) as an immediate action 1/encounter. Downside is you have to not be flat-footed when the conflict happens. How much do you want to invest in this (class levels, skills, feats - how much are you willing to spare, and what base build do you want to put it on)?

And, of course, if you instead use a permanently polymorphed cohort (who is very well defended, being inside your skin!) you don't really need to worry about ego anyway.

Also, that Leadership idea is just evil. I'm talking Red Fel evil. *shudders*What are you talking about? It's perfectly alignment-independent. The polymorph can be undone readily enough - by the cohort, even, under transparency ... at least, once you can cast PaO yourself... and with a cohort, there's no particular need to subjugate your fellow's will. As noted, there's an implied sense-sharing, so it's not like your cohort is missing out on anything.

Edit: For that matter, it goes really well with Exalted!

If you have, say, a Cleric-15 (Trickery + whatever) main character with Vow of Poverty, and an Elan Psion-13 Cohort (also with Vow of Poverty), using the Trickery domain for the PaO. The Psion's base Int dropping to 16 becomes irrelevant because you're not using it offensively so the save DC doesn't matter, and the enhancement from the Vow gets the Psion's Int high enough to use the highest level powers.... then just make sure the cohort has all of the fix-it powers (Egoist helps here!), and you can be the juggernaut! Almost anything someone does to you gets fixed the next round.

[daremetoidareyo]

I like the leadership polymorph any object idea.

Pride domain is one way to solve it. Another option is to take two luck feats and then dumb luck (complete scoundrel) followed by residual rebound (UA) which turns any failed save into a free chance to dominate the mind leech. :smallwink:

I also like the idea of building a character whose sole existence is to be a perfect mechanical multiplier of a mind leeches abilities. Bard is kinda suited for it, but is there a better way to get at it? Bards are already heavy into mind-control type shenanigans. Is there a TOB build that would benefit from having a mind leech controlling enemies into become coflankers as free actions?

What spells would enhance a mind leech?

Can you druid aberrant wild shape into a mind leech? Cuz there might be hijinx there. Can they cast spells from inside your head?

[Jack_Simth]

Can you druid aberrant wild shape into a mind leech? Cuz there might be hijinx there. Can they cast spells from inside your head?Not pre-epic. The Mind Leech is Fine size, and Aberrant Wild Shape is limited to the animal forms you could assume. Could get a Cerebral Hood or a Psionic Sinew at 11th, though, to similar effect.

[daremetoidareyo]

Found it.

The Shifter prestige class from 3.0's masters of the wild can net you a druid mind leech at level 14. But alas, they are limited to a max of 3rd level spells with that option. But maybe they can take some neat feats that give them something?...


Nevermind, got it.
Human Druid 5/Vermin keeper 7 (Underdark)
1: aberration blood (LOM) / Iron Will
3:aberration wild shape (LOM)
6: natural spell
9: FEAT (blindsense (CA) or extra wildshape is suggested)
12:great and small (CC)

or if you have a more wild DM who allows weird things
Goliath druid 5/vermin keeper 5
1: iron will (outyough hole or flaw), aberration blood
3: proportionate wildshape (master of wild) or powerful wild shape (RoS)
6: great and small
9: aberration wildshape
12: natural spell

You count as large in proportionate wildshape (and maybe powerful wild shape) so you can wildshape into large creatures, which means that you can use great or small to bump your dimunitive wildshape vermin form down to fine. You can possibly also replace goliath with a human with jormengrund feat... Which means you can be a mind leech by level 10, but you can't do much until level 12 anyway except...maybe let your wildshape duration run out, thus exploding out of a host's skull....