[3.5] Help creating a warforged crusader

[Dousedinoil]

Hey everyone,

I apologize for making another thread about crusaders. I have already looked at the handbooks around crusaders and have read up on everything that they do as well as everything related for warforged. I am only starting at level 6 and noticed that I am very starved for feats. My DM doesn't allow flaws, so I'm not sure if running a warforged crusader is even possible. I was originally looking at JaronK's build but their is no way I can keep up for feats. He has it as:

Build 1: The D&D Smiteadin

Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Crusader 2/Fighter 2/Crusader +14, Human.

1: Improved Shield Bash, Power Attack
2: Improved Trip
3: Improved Bull Rush
5: Shield Charge
6: Shield Slam, Extra Granted Manuever
9: Shock Trooper
12: Leap Attack
15: Shield Specialization
18: Shield Ward

That doesn't even include combat expertise which I think he missed. Without the extra feat from human, the combat expertise and taking adamantine body at 1st level, I would be really behind on the build. I don't care if my crusader is super powerful but I at least want it to be good enough to keep up with the rest of the party. I also looked at Warforged Juggernaut but it doesn't really seem worth it. So next I thought I could do the simple Crusader 20 build from the Tome of Battle for Dummies:

Basic Crusader
Build Stub: Human Crusader 20

Feats:
Human: Combat Reflexes
1: Stand Still
3: Extra Granted Maneuver
6: Combat Expertise
9: Improved Trip
12: Robilar’s Gambit
15: Defensive Sweep (PHB2)
18: Overwhelming Assault (PHB2)

I wouldn't get the extra feat from being human but I could do a Fighter2/Crusader3/Fighter2/Crusader13 build to get Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise and Improved trip as Fighter Feats. I was thinking my feats should look something like this:

1: Adamantine Body(Fighter Level 1)
1: Combat Reflexes (Fighter Level 1)
2: Combat Expertise (Fighter Level 2)
3: Stand Still (Crusader Level 1)
6: Extra Granted Maneuver (Fighter Level 3)
7: Improved Trip (Fighter Level 4)

Does that work? Even with this build, im still behind.Also, I wanted to take a tower shield but can't see a real reason to use it. Should I run Sword/Shield or THW with reach? I was thinking that given Warforged natural attacks that I should go with the reach weapon so that I can still hit with the natural weapon if enemies move within range. I wanted to take a tower shield but can't see a real reason to use it. The problem with the THW with reach is that it leaves me less tanky. I feel like I need to have Stone Power in order to keep up my defences. The problem I have with that is that Stone Power + Shocking Fist looks like it will drop off at higher levels:

1: Adamantine Body
3: Stone Power
6: Shocking Fist

It seems okay for level 6 but I'm not sure where to take it. Which build should I be running as a Warforged Crusader and why? Any improvements that I can make? I don't care if it is fully optimized but I dont want to be useless after level 10. Please help!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Just use the Warforged slam attack with a shield, it doesn't get iterative attacks but you can only make a single attack with most martial strikes anyway, and it gets 1.5x Str to damage if you're not using any other weapons.

I would go with Adamantine Body, Stone Power, and Extra Granted Maneuver starting out. Plan to pick up Shield Specialization and Shield Ward in PH2, and Heavy Armor Optimization and Greater Heavy Armor Optimization in RoS. Get the Quick trait (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#quick) if possible so you'll still have a 30 ft. land speed. Note that your base land speed is reduced by taking Adamantine Body, but you're not slowed down by wearing armor, so you can still use the Tumble skill. Trade Ride for Tumble as a class skill (archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a), and take a look at the Balance and Tumble skill tricks in CS.

Another option is to include the Dragonborn of Bahamut (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1) template in Races of the Dragon. When that's applied to a Warforged you'll lose the base composite plating and light fortification, but nothing else. You can still get Adamantine Body, and you'll still have the Living Construct subtype and everything that comes with it. Your slam attack is not one of your racial traits due to how it's presented, so that won't even be lost. As a Dragonborn you can get a breath attack usable every 1d4 rounds, and you can pick up Entangling Exhalation also in Races of the Dragon to severely debuff your opponents and prevent them from getting an advantageous position on your party, while also dealing damage every round which will present your character as a significant threat. It's the perfect thing to do on any round that you don't have a useful martial strike granted. In this case, be sure to start out with Entangling Exhalation, and just push the other feats back to a later level.

[Dousedinoil]

My DM doesn't allow flaws or traits but thanks for the idea. I also won't be pin into dragonborn because it goes against the whole role playing aesthetic that I'm going for.

This might sound noobish but how does the math work for a natural attack that makes it worth using? The slam damage is only a 1D4. Assuming I have strength of 17 and a modifier of +3 that means that I would do an extra 4.5 damage? So that's an average of 2.5+4.5=7 damage? Something like a Morningstar would do 1D8 +3 for 7.5 damage? Where is the benefit of using the natural attack?

[ExLibrisMortis]

The second level of barbarian grants Improved Trip, without requiring Combat Expertise. That's why JaronK's build doesn't have Combat Expertise listed. Using his build with an adamantine-plated warforged puts you two feats behind, which is annoying, but can be fixed. You can add more levels that grant feats (psychic warrior 1 and 2, feat rogue 1, monk 1 and 2 with a custom martial arts style), but that'll cost you base attack bonus and maneuvers. You can try to 'buy' feats using magical locations - I don't think any of them grant the feats you need, but talk to your DM about finding a trainer of some sort. You can also get the party wizard/incantatrix to persist heroics a couple of times, a mid-high level tactic that eats into other buffs, but still doable.

[Troacctid]

The slam attack is the only weapon that can be used with Shocking Fist.

Aside from that, it's mainly useful as a way to threaten adjacent squares while wielding a reach weapon.

[noob]

Then there is dark chaos shuffle and items giving you feats and locations giving you feats you do not need simply DCS them and you have all the feats you want.

[Dousedinoil]

The slam attack is the only weapon that can be used with Shocking Fist.

Aside from that, it's mainly useful as a way to threaten adjacent squares while wielding a reach weapon.

Yeah that's what I was thinking of doing but the other poster recommended using a shield instead. I do like the idea of having shield block but alone isn't worth taking the a shield. JaronK's build also takes a shield over the two handed weapon. Personally, I like the idea of using a two handed weapon but that leaves me with an AC of only 19. Seems pretty low for a tank.

Also, I'll see if my DM will allow me to dip into some other classes. He isn't a big fan of multiclassing but I can probably persuade him.

[Troacctid]

Ideally you'd have a two-handed weapon and an animated shield, for the best of both worlds.

[Dousedinoil]

Ideally you'd have a two-handed weapon and an animated shield, for the best of both worlds.

How much does that cost? I see it says +2 bonus in the Magic armor section but I don't know what that means... Lol I'm such a noob.

[Troacctid]

A +1 animated shield will set you back 9000 gp, plus the cost of a masterwork shield.

[Darrin]

Build 1: The D&D Smiteadin

Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Crusader 2/Fighter 2/Crusader +14, Human.

1: Improved Shield Bash, Power Attack
2: Improved Trip
3: Improved Bull Rush
5: Shield Charge
6: Shield Slam, Extra Granted Manuever
9: Shock Trooper
12: Leap Attack
15: Shield Specialization
18: Shield Ward


As has already been mentioned, Wolf Totem Barbarian 2 gets Improved Trip without requiring Combat Expertise. You can also combine that with Spirit Lion Totem (Complete Champion) for Pounce, which is kinda required on a melee build to keep them from becoming irrelevant later on. Ok, so, two feats... Extra Granted Maneuver is nice to have, but not essential. Shield Ward helps your touch AC, but it's also not essential, so we may be able to reorganize some of this... how about:

Fighter 2/Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Crusader +16, Warforged.

1: Adamantine Body, Power Attack
2: Improved Shield Bash
3: Improved Bull Rush
4: Improved Trip
6: Shield Charge
9: Shield Slam
12: Shock Trooper
15: Leap Attack
18: Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown)

If you're missing the Crusader stuff early on, you could swap it to Fighter 2/Crusader 2/Barb 2. If you're worried about waiting too long to get access to Shield Charge/Shield Slam or Shock Trooper/Leap Attack, we could move things up a bit with Fighter 4/Barb 2/Crusader 14 or Fighter 2/Psychic Warrior 2/Barb 2/Crusader 14. You still get one 9th level maneuver that way.



I wouldn't get the extra feat from being human but I could do a Fighter2/Crusader3/Fighter2/Crusader13 build to get Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise and Improved trip as Fighter Feats. I was thinking my feats should look something like this:

1: Adamantine Body(Fighter Level 1)
1: Combat Reflexes (Fighter Level 1)
2: Combat Expertise (Fighter Level 2)
3: Stand Still (Crusader Level 1)
6: Extra Granted Maneuver (Fighter Level 3)
7: Improved Trip (Fighter Level 4)

Does that work?


Yes, but I'd still recommend Fighter 2/Crusader 3/Barbarian 2 to pick up Pounce via Spirit Lion Totem (Complete Champion).



Also, I wanted to take a tower shield but can't see a real reason to use it.


I've also never been clear on how to use a tower shield. Well, ok, there is one way: give it to a Conjurer Wizard and have him hide behind it while summoning creatures to do his dirty work.

The only other thing I can come up with to do with a tower shield on a melee meatbag is trade away the proficiency for an exotic shield or for a Dragonborn feat (Dragon Wings or Dragon Tail).



Should I run Sword/Shield or THW with reach?


Start with a guisarme and use your slam if anyone gets close to you. Once you get a decent amount of Crusader maneuvers, then Sword & Board starts to look a little more viable, as you have more strikes to make "move + standard action" more interesting.



The problem I have with that is that Stone Power + Shocking Fist looks like it will drop off at higher levels:

1: Adamantine Body
3: Stone Power
6: Shocking Fist

It seems okay for level 6 but I'm not sure where to take it. Which build should I be running as a Warforged Crusader and why? Any improvements that I can make? I don't care if it is fully optimized but I dont want to be useless after level 10. Please help!

How about:

Battle Dancer 1/Barbarian 1/Crusader 2/Fighter 2/Crusader +14

1: Adamantine Body, Improved Unarmed Strike (Battle Dancer is in Dragon Compendium Vol. 1)
3: Stone Power
5: Second Slam (Races of Eberron)
6: Shocking Fist, Heavy Armor Optimization (Races of Stone)
9: Snap Kick
12: Superior Unarmed Strike
15: Improved Natural Attack (Slam)
18: Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike)

[Ellowryn]

Don't worry about your AC unless you starting at level one as to-hit scales exponentially as you level while AC does not, so stacking AC is only really useful in the 1~5 level range. What you really need to invest in is miss chance as that is a flat miss number regardless of the opponents to-hit. The best possible miss chance item is Obi of the White Lotus Master (Dragon Compendium pg138), it unfortunately requires you to be lawful and have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat but gives you true 20% miss chance that isn't negated by trueseeing.

[Dousedinoil]

You guys are amazing! I feel like wizards should be paying you for all the help. Thanks guys!