Necropolitan question.

[Yael]

I was reading Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook), just to extend and enforce my already-extensive knowledge on the subject of Monsters; then I came up to the following sentence (that I will quote), note that in the handbook there's a lot of bolding, but I'll only bold the part that I want to highlight (aside for the section name).


The Augmented Subtype: Some templates change a creature's type. Every Vampire is Undead, while every Half-Dragon has the Dragon type. However, this doesn't usually mean that you have to change all of a monster's Racial Hit Dice when it gets a template. Unless the template says otherwise, if a template changes a creature's type gains the Augmented(Former Creature Type) subtype. For example, a Half-Dragon that you based off a Brown Bear goes from being an Animal to a Dragon(Augmented Animal). The Augmented Subtype means that, while the creature gains the Traits of its new Type, it keeps the Features of its original Type. So a Half-Dragon Brown Bear would have the same Base Attack Bonus as a normal Brown Bear, and would not gain the Base Attack Bonus of a creature of the Dragon Type. Even if a template says it changes a creature's Hit Dice, those changes only apply to Racial Hit Dice unless the template says otherwise. In particular, while some types of Undead change all of a creature's Hit Dice, including those gained from classes, (Vampire and Lich are both examples) if the template does not say it changes Hit Dice from classes, it does not do so.

Now, the Necropolitan'sLM Hit Dice entry says only: Increase to d12. And the sample of a Necropolitan Creature, a Necropolitan, 5th-Level Human Wizard has Hit Dice: 5d12 (32 hp)

I think that would enter in conflict with the bolded statement in Urpriest's guide, and looking at the Lich or Vampire's Hit Dice entry, they actually do say:
Hit Dice
Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d12s.

I'm not really sure if Libris Mortis is 3.0 or 3.5, but the thing is that maybe I'm misunderstanding the rules or Urpriest's explanation here or necropolitan isn't as good as I thought an hour ago... Any thoughts?

EDIT: I also checked the Libris Mortis Errata and it didn't list any Necropolitan changes.

Green represents a mix between sarcasm and a little lie, this post.

[Crake]

It's worth noting that the line in ur-priests's guide is his own interpretation for the rules (that line is not taken from any RAW description of the augmented subtype that I've ever seen), and I must say, I believe it to be wrong. Generally, at least since 3.5, racial HD has been called out as the exception, so if something refers to HD, it means all HD, but if it says racial HD, it means just racial HD. Prime example being the way half dragon is worded, specifically calling out racial HD, as opposed to just saying HD.

Ur-priest's interpretation holds true I think for 3.0 material, as I don't believe they previously did not differentiate between HD and racial HD, generally using the term interchangably and instead specifically calling out class HD, so for example, the feral template's HD related benefits are specifically for racial HD, class HD does not apply.

[Yael]

It's worth noting that the line in ur-priests's guide is his own interpretation for the rules (that line is not taken from any RAW description of the augmented subtype that I've ever seen), and I must say, I believe it to be wrong. Generally, at least since 3.5, racial HD has been called out as the exception, so if something refers to HD, it means all HD, but if it says racial HD, it means just racial HD. Prime example being the way half dragon is worded, specifically calling out racial HD, as opposed to just saying HD.

Ur-priest's interpretation holds true I think for 3.0 material, as I don't believe they previously did not differentiate between HD and racial HD, generally using the term interchangably and instead specifically calling out class HD, so for example, the feral template's HD related benefits are specifically for racial HD, class HD does not apply.

So if it doesn't apply to Racial HD unless it says so, but it also doesn't apply to HD overall unless it says so, when does it apply?

[KillianHawkeye]

Just confirming that Libris Mortis is a 3.5 book, being that it was published slightly a year after the revision.

[Vaz]

A template’s description provides a set of instructions for altering an existing creature, known as the base creature. The changes that a template might cause to each line of a creature’s statistics block are discussed below. Generally, if a template does not cause a change to a certain statistic, that entry is missing from the template description. For clarity, the entry for a statistic or attribute that is not changed is sometimes given as "Same as the base creature."


Most templates do not change the number of Hit Dice a monster has, but some do. Some templates change the size of a creature’s Hit Dice (usually by changing the creature type). A few templates change previously acquired Hit Dice, and continue to change Hit Dice gained with class levels, but most templates that change Hit Dice change only the creature’s original HD and leave class Hit Dice unchanged.

These are quotes drawn from the SRD; in short, unless it specifically changes something, it stays the same.

In regards to changing hit dice, unless it mentions that it changes the hit dice of those gained with class levels (such as via the vampires mention of change all current and future hit dice) then it only applies to "original HD and leave class Hit Dice unchanged".

The example monsters and characters are notorious for sometimes not qualifying with the own rules of the template or prestige class; (I say notorious, there are several well documented examples, which causes many RAI and RAW confusions; RAW being that persons own interpretations of the language).

In this instance a Necropolitan Template example character explicitly goes against the rules of the Necropolitan Template; in that it changes the class levels of the existing wizard. So, that 5th level wizard once it becomes Necropolitan has all of its current Hit Dice changed (including that of class levels). There is nothing to say that further leveling of the character results in gaining class levels with D12's, because a) the template doesn't say so, and b) the example character doesn't make mention of if levels have been gained post Ritual of Crucimigation.

[Crake]

So if it doesn't apply to Racial HD unless it says so, but it also doesn't apply to HD overall unless it says so, when does it apply?

Nah, i mean, by default, when it says "HD" in 3.5 it means all HD, including class, but in 3.0 it means racial HD. So in libris mortis (and the 3.5 MM1) when it says "All HD become d12" that means all HD, not all racial HD like ur-priest's guide seems to imply, but in savage species, which is a 3.0 book, when it says "the abilities you get are determined by HD" it means racial HD, since I believe in 3.0 the term racial HD didn't exist, it simply had a divide betwee "HD" and "level"

I may be completely wrong regarding the 3.0 bit, but for sure the 3.5 books, unless it specifically calls out racial HD, it's all HD

Or I dunno, maybe just ignore me, I can't be bothered sorting my thoughts out right now.

[Urpriest]

These are quotes drawn from the SRD; in short, unless it specifically changes something, it stays the same.

In regards to changing hit dice, unless it mentions that it changes the hit dice of those gained with class levels (such as via the vampires mention of change all current and future hit dice) then it only applies to "original HD and leave class Hit Dice unchanged".

The example monsters and characters are notorious for sometimes not qualifying with the own rules of the template or prestige class; (I say notorious, there are several well documented examples, which causes many RAI and RAW confusions; RAW being that persons own interpretations of the language).

In this instance a Necropolitan Template example character explicitly goes against the rules of the Necropolitan Template; in that it changes the class levels of the existing wizard. So, that 5th level wizard once it becomes Necropolitan has all of its current Hit Dice changed (including that of class levels). There is nothing to say that further leveling of the character results in gaining class levels with D12's, because a) the template doesn't say so, and b) the example character doesn't make mention of if levels have been gained post Ritual of Crucimigation.

Vaz has pointed out the specific text backing up the handbook quote.

However, as others have pointed out, my philosophy on this is not strictly RAW. (It also isn't RAI, which is a notoriously slippery notion and probably doesn't exist in most cases.) Rather, I generally advise people to try to apply the rules consistently, so as to maximize the amount of content that can viably be used.

Something that changes only some class hit dice and not the rest would be very inconsistent. Splitting up a class into two parts with different HD happens to a very limited extent for substitution levels, but uncontrolled application, especially with something like a ritual that can happen at different points during a story, is something the rules are pretty careful to avoid. It's why the Augmented subtype exists in the first place.

More generally, many undead have lots of racial hit dice, and it's less of a problem for them to have class hit dice that aren't d12s. If you're a Mummy Lord, you've got 8d12 hit dice from your race to rely on so those 10d8 with no Con from your class levels are less of a problem. In contrast, undead templates that can be applies to creatures with only class levels generally change future hit dice, to prevent a d4 with no Con mod Vampire Wizard from dying to a stiff breeze. Every Necropolitan we've seen statted out in a rulebook has all of its hit dice as d12s (AFB at the moment, but my guess is there's at least one beyond the LM example, if only in a Dungeon issue). While Necropolitan doesn't explicitly change future HD to d12s, letting it do so seems like the consistent thing to do.