First Pathfinder build - Barbarian or Paladin...

[Iamacup]

Hello GITP,
So it's been about five years since I last played a table top RPG, that was ADND (2nd ed DND). During that time I played a number of range, rogue, and assassin character types. The bottom line is, I was always jealous of the front line melee machine, even though my archer did more damage per round in the first six levels or so.
Now a Pathfinder game is being discussed bewteen some friends, a mixture people, some have never played RPGs, and others that have not played in years. All of us are new to the pathfinder game system.
I have rolled a character, and nailed my rolls, to get a set of stats that can work for anything.
17 16 14 10 14 18
I am looking for advice on what works and what doesn't work so well for melee in this game setting. Mainly core rules as i don't know yet what the DM/house rules will be.
at the moment i am thinking half orc, or human Paladin, as lay of hands is pretty awesome. However, i think to make it more exciting a barbarian might be the way to go. The pure chaos caused by barbarians can be hilarious. I have always been jealous of the chaos. I know we have a magic user and a ranger at the moment also being developed, so the range and magic are covered.
i have read a few build threads and it seems so much more confusing than building an advanced character.
Which has the better pure melee damage capabilities, Paladin or Barbarian?
It seems paladin is more tank material where barbarian is pant wetting damage. Is this the case? I am not too concerned about the other spells for paladin.also looking at THF, falchion or great axe for preference.
also what are alternatives, can i dip into paladin and get lay of hands befoer getting barbarian? The class dipping is also a new concept that i have not managed to find a huge amount of literature on. I am waiting for my core book and apg in the post.

So i guess the main question is, how would you build a pathfinder melee/damage character with these stats?

[Novawurmson]

Yes, generally the Barbarian is generally the better raw damage dealer. The Barbarian is also nice because the basics are simple: Pick up Power Attack, Raging Vitality, and a two-handed weapon, and you're a powerhouse damage dealer that's tough to kill. Everything from there can be personal preference.

If your GM allows the APG (and most will), you're going to want to invest in the Beast Totem line of Rage Powers to get pounce (full attack on a charge - being able to move and full attack in the same round is critical at high levels).

If you're looking for something a little crazier and the GM allows more sources, take a look at the Bloodrager - most of the raw power of the Barbarian, but with more spells and supernatural abilities to back it up. The Primalist archetype also allows them access to the regular Barbarian's Rage Powers.

Edit: Also, for stats, I'd probably go something like:

Str - 18
Dex - 16
Con - 17
Int - 14
Wis - 14
Cha - 10

Those are some amazing stats you rolled - That's a 50 (!) point buy equivalent. If you go Bloodrager, I'd use something like:

Str - 18
Dex - 14
Con - 16
Int - 10
Wis - 14
Cha - 17

Also, feel free to check out the optimization guides compendium in my signature. I wrote a Barbarian guide - it's out of date, but it should still be useful.

[Pex]

A paladin is specialized. He will be awesome against fighting one evil foe whom he targets with a Smite Evil. Paladins love to fight BBEGs one on one. They can dish it out and take it. Against anyone else they're relying more on feats than class abilities for fighting prowess. Certainly capable enough but their shining glory is against the BBEG or whoever is the evil boss of the enemies in a combat, and it is absolutely glorious.

A barbarian can fight against the BBEG, as any warrior class should be able to, but their prowess in doing so is no different than fighting mook number 3. They're at their best no matter who they fight against, but there's no difference in aestheticism between opponents. No one wants to be next the raging barbarian.

Both classes can dish out a lot of damage. The math different between them isn't important. It doesn't matter if one class does X average damage more than the other. What differences between them that is important are their fighting styles and class features. Paladin can choose his own magic weapon, has useful spells, healing, passive buffs, and a lot of whoop-ass against one foe. Barbarians have lots of hit points, rage, and can select from a list of interesting things to do while raging. Once chosen that's what he has. Neither is better, just your preference for play.

[Iamacup]

Once chosen that's what he has. Neither is better, just your preference for play.

I think this means i will be playing a Barb, i want the chaos, everywhere. I want to smash down doors and charge into leagues of underlings only to reduce them to lumpy piles of gore. I want a character that is a blender.

Bloodrager sounds good. Maybe a little over complicated for my first soujourn into pathfinder. What book are they in? I will start looking into the build.

[Iamacup]

Also, feel free to check out the optimization guides compendium in my signature. I wrote a Barbarian guide - it's out of date, but it should still be useful.

Thanks, i will do.

[Novawurmson]

Bloodrager (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager) is from the Advanced Class Guide. The ACG is a book of "hybrid classes" - mash ups of two older classes into something similar to (but not quite exactly the same as) its predecessors - in this case, the barbarian and the sorcerer. It's really not that much more complicated than the barbarian and paladin. It's got a little less raw power than the barbarian for good chunk of maximum potential and customization. There's absolutely no problem with going Barbarian, I just want to put the option on the table.

[Iamacup]

This seems like a good thread to look at.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1plVgdYb5KYxtXiysgd_pzdK-37PCmz2u9VzpuvNPDdo/mobilebasic
The invulnerable build seems to be pretty hard core. I will have a look into Bloodrager. Thanks Nova, your guide is also really comprehensive.
Playing is going to be the best way to learn.

[Iamacup]

This seems like a good thread to look at.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1plVgdYb5KYxtXiysgd_pzdK-37PCmz2u9VzpuvNPDdo/mobilebasic
The invulnerable build seems to be pretty hard core. I will have a look into Bloodrager. Thanks Nova, your guide is also really comprehensive.
Playing is going to be the best way to learn.

I found this quote on the paizo boards, from Proftobe,
Invulnerable rager isn't by itself overpowered. The superstitious line up to spell sunder isn't over powered. Beast totem isn't overpowered. Picking up extra damage reduction as a rage power isn't overpowered. Come and Get me isn't overpowered, but if you combine all of the above especially on a human using alternate racials to get his saves into the stratosphere then you are probably facing one of the top martials in the game.
This is what i am going for, hope it works!!

[Extra Anchovies]

Yeah, supertank barbarian is fun. Have you considered the Unchained Barbarian (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/barbarian-unchained)? They get all of the above, plus temporary HP instead of that useless Constitution boost (no need for Raging Vitality), and they have some really strong options for rage powers (a lot of the weaker rage powers got pretty substantial buffs in Unchained).


especially on a human using alternate racials to get his saves into the stratosphere

Care to explain? I don't see any human alternate racial features that provide save bonuses that aren't both minor and situational (+2 Fortitude vs hot climates?).

[squiggit]

Care to explain? I don't see any human alternate racial features that provide save bonuses that aren't both minor and situational (+2 Fortitude vs hot climates?).

Human Barbarian FCB gives +1/3 to superstition's bonus to saves.

[Pex]

I think this means i will be playing a Barb, i want the chaos, everywhere. I want to smash down doors and charge into leagues of underlings only to reduce them to lumpy piles of gore. I want a character that is a blender.

Bloodrager sounds good. Maybe a little over complicated for my first soujourn into pathfinder. What book are they in? I will start looking into the build.

Yes, barbarian is more of a fit then.

Barbarians get rage powers that allow them to do cool things while in a rage. Bloodragers instead get a small number of arcane spells which can be cast while in a rage. If you play a regular barbarian I would recommend the updated version from the book Pathfinder Unchained. Regular barbarian has a bug where while raging if your character drops to below 0 hit points it can immediately die because you lose the Constitution and hit points you gained from raging immediately. Unchained barbarian fixes that by giving you temporary hit points instead. That's the important big deal. Everything else is incidentals.

[Novawurmson]

Unchained Barbarian can be a direct downgrade from the regular barbarian depending on your build and optimization level.

For a extremely quick example, the CRB barbarian gets a +4 bonus bonus to Str; the Unchained Barbarian gets a +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls. If you're two-handed fighting, that's a nerf, as you would be getting a +3 bonus to damage because of the 1.5x multiplier; if you're two-weapon fighting, that's a buff, as you'd usually be taking the x.5 multiplier on your offhand weapon.

On a higher optimization level, the Unchained Barbarian no longer gets "once per rage" rage powers that can be used multiple times per combat via "rage cycling" (i.e. dropping and regaining rage rapidly by abusing an ability that gives immunity to fatigue); "rage cycling" doesn't even renew the temporary hit points granted.

Overall, it's mostly a matter of preference.

[Iamacup]

I have been playing with the build books and looking into the guides.

This seems to be the type of build I have been looking for.

Any advice on this build and advice for the final levels would be god. I don't really know if we will start at Lvl 1 so I thought I would plan ahead. The stats are the ones I rolled, I may play down some of the stats depending on some of the other party members.

Male Half-Orc Barbarian 1
 Chaotic Good



Strength 20 (+5) Includes half orc modifier
Dexterity 16 (+3)
Constitution 17 (+3)
Intelligence 13 (+1)
Wisdom 14 (+2)
Charisma 14 (+2)
Size:
Medium
Height:6' 4"
Weight:440 lb


Falchion [2d4, crit 18-20/x2, 8 lb, two-handed, slashing]
Hide armor [medium; + 3 AC; max dex + 4; check penalty -3 25 lb.]



Favored class points: Hit points +0; Skill points +1

Adjust weapon attack rolls and armor penalties as required for masterwork / magic equipment.
Half-Orc


• +2 to strength (already included)
• Darkvision (see 60 feet in pitch-dark)
• +1 to all rage rounds per day Added
• +2 on intimidate (already included)
•
• Sacred Tattoo - +1 bonus on all saving throws
•
• All orcs know greataxes and falchions
• All Orc weapons are Known
Barbarian

Feats and Rage powers
• Fast Movement (+10 feet, already included)
•
• (level 1)Rage -- 5 + con mod (+3) rounds per day. Two more rounds / day / level +4 strength, +4 constitution, +2 on will saves, -2 on AC. At each even-numbered level, barbarians gain a new rage power — Power Attack
•
• (level 2) Beast Totem Lesser - Invulnerability EX (DR/- per half level, DBL non lethal)
•
• (level 3) Extreme Endurance EX (Inured to cold, Cold resistance at 1 point per 3 levels) — Cleave
•
• (level 4) Elemental rage lesser - Cold
•
• (level 5) Great Cleave
•
• (level 6) Beast totem (+1/4L natural armour bonus) - Extreme Endurance 2
•
• (level 7) Combat Reflexes
•
• (level 8) Increased DR +1 (stacks)
•
• (level 9) Extreme endurance 3 — Improved Critical
•
• (level 10) Beast Totem greater
•
• (level 11) Greater Rage -- +6 strength, +6 constitution, +3 will — Extra rage power — Elemental rage
•
• (level 12) Extreme Endurance 4 - Improved DR +1 (stacks)
•
• (level 13) Come and Get me
•
• (level 14) Indomitable Will (+4 on will, stacks with rage and all other plusses)
•
• (level 15) Extreme Endurance 5 — Iron Will
•
• (level 16) Superstition
•
• (level 17) Tireless Rage -- no longer fatigued after raging — dodge
•
• (level 18) Witch hunter - Extreme Endurance 6
•
• (level 19)
•
• (level 20) Mighty Rage -- +8 strength, +8 constitution, +4 will

Any advice would be welcome.

[Novawurmson]

Raging Vitality indisputably deserves a spot in your build. Not only does it increase your Con bonus from raging by 2 (giving you +1 hp per level and increasing your Fortitude save), but it also means that you can't suddenly die from being knocked unconscious.

Let's say you're level 3. Your base con is 17. Let's say you rolled exactly average for HP, with the standard full HP at level 1, and you put your favored class bonus into rounds of rage. That's 12+6.5+6.5+(3x3=9)=34 when not raging, 40 HP when raging.

Now, let's say you're at 1 HP, when you take a hit that deals 13 damage to you. You're now at -12, which hurts, but you don't die until -21 (your Con while raging). However, because you're unconscious, you're no longer raging, and your Con drops back to 17. Your maximum and current hit points drop by 6 (the amount you gained from raging. Now you're at -18 HP, and you die at -17, so you're dead.

Now, let's say you took Raging Vitality. While raging, your Con is 23, and your HP is 43. If you're at 1 HP and you take 23 damage, you drop to -22, but you can still expend rounds of rage to keep your Con bonus and not die immediately.

TL;DR: Take Raging Vitality. It helps you not die.

I'm not a fan of Cleave and Great Cleave, but feel free to take them if you want them.

If you really, really want to optimize damage, consider Raging Brutality (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/raging-brutality) as well. Your Con while raging should be stupid high by the time you qualify for it.

Edit: Also, Iron Will isn't bad, but you've got a pretty solid Wisdom, and your rage grants you a bonus to Will saves as well. By the time you reach that point in your build, you may find you don't need it.

[TheifofZ]

[Snop]

Okay briefly consider: What does half orc give you that going full orc doesn't?
If you're using a lot of half orc things, than it's fine, but going full orc with the alternate racial that gives you ranged attack penalties instead of being dazzled in bright light is overall slightly stronger (literally).
Second: IMO cleave is too situational to take on every barbarian; Sure, when it's good, it's REALLY good, but most of the time, the 'Drop foe, get attack on adjacent foe' requirements to trigger it happen to rarely to make it worth it.
You could replace it with an improvement to one of your combat maneuvers instead, and gain reliable utility in combat. Overrun and Bullrush are both powerful options for battlefield control, and Trip gives you that -and- let's you grab things that combo together (Cornugon Smash, I think it was, for instance) to let you absolutely punish one target.

[Novawurmson]

I'm a big fan of drag for barbarian combat maneuvers. It has Power Attack as a prerequisite (which you're going to be picking up anyway), but the payoff comes when you get Greater Drag. Imagine a setup like this, where A=Ally, E=Enemy, and Y=You:

E
AYA

When you drag them backwards, you pull them into a flanking scenario and grant your allies attacks of opportunity.

AEA
Y

Though trip is really good, especially with Knockdown (and Strength Surge, if you've got room in your build).

[Iamacup]

I did wonder about having Iron will and indomitable will, I think having a cleave feat will be useful, especially early on. However after looking at raging vitality and raging brutality, two feats that I had overlooked, I have swapped out great cleave and iron will for raging vitality and raging brutality respectively. Although, in my reading of cleave, you get a second attack on a successful attack. Is this not the case?

With being Half Orc, I thought about full Orc and dismissed it pretty readily due to the in game social connections. I want to be a power house, but one that can also go into most places and order a beer with out being chased by a mob. I then considered human, for the heart of the fields trait. After thinking about what I wanted, I didn't have that many 1/rage abilities, so rage cycling was not going to be a huge deal for me. I also have found night vision to be invaluable at times in previous 2nd Ed games, so getting that free was great. With Sacred tattoo and Falchion proficiency I think I am pretty well covered.

As this is my first build, do you think this will work as barbarian?
Also, a question about superstition. Does this also mean I have to save against taking potions, lay on hands and cure wands. I assume wands would be a save but the others I don't know. Also I read that a Pc can decide not save against an effect, that also I assume is not the case for this rage power. Just thinking about mid battle healing.
Cheers

[Novawurmson]

in my reading of cleave, you get a second attack on a successful attack. Is this not the case?

Yes, but the attack has to be against a different opponent adjacent to the first who is also within your reach. You're correct that it's pretty decent early game, but it does fall off late. You might talk to your GM about whether or not retraining is available. It can work (and work well) sometimes, but it's not an "all the time amazing" thing like Power Attack.


As this is my first build, do you think this will work as barbarian?

Absolutely. Your half orc should tear enemies holes in places they didn't know they had while being quite tough to kill.


Also, a question about superstition. Does this also mean I have to save against taking potions, lay on hands and cure wands. I assume wands would be a save but the others I don't know. Also I read that a Pc can decide not save against an effect, that also I assume is not the case for this rage power. Just thinking about mid battle healing.
Cheers

Lay on Hands doesn't grant a saving throw for living creatures, so you couldn't save against it even if you tried (or, alternately, even if you rolled a saving throw, it would do nothing). You would have to save against a wand, but I'm honestly not sure about potions.

Edit:
Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. The character taking the potion doesn't get to make any decisions about the effect—the caster who brewed the potion has already done so. The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect).

I'd say you have to save vs. potions.

[TheifofZ]

I'm a big fan of drag for barbarian combat maneuvers. It has Power Attack as a prerequisite (which you're going to be picking up anyway), but the payoff comes when you get Greater Drag. Imagine a setup like this, where A=Ally, E=Enemy, and Y=You:

E
AYA

When you drag them backwards, you pull them into a flanking scenario and grant your allies attacks of opportunity.

AEA
Y

Though trip is really good, especially with Knockdown (and Strength Surge, if you've got room in your build).
I've always liked trip for the sheer amount of punishment you can get rolling in one turn: Oh, I hit you. Now I trip you for free, with bonuses because I hit you. Now you've been tripped, I hit you again as my AoO, which I have several of. Because I hit you, and because you're prone, you take a Debuff to your AC and I get a bonus to my attacks against you, so I hit you -again-, most likely at a total of -1 off my previous hits, grand total. That's 3 hits pretty much guaranteed, and you're getting barbarian damage on all of them.
It might not look pretty, and it eats feats for every meal, but in a happy 1v1 or even against a small cluster, it's pretty much downright horrifying. Also any other buddies nearby also get AoOs, and the target is prone. So that's nifty.
Drag is a close second, personally, because it lets you pull people into unhappy places which is always all kinds of fun. Especially if you've got a sneak nearby to take advantage of the easy setup for flanking.
But it's definitely down to personal preference on which maneuver you like more, or even if you bother using them at all.

(I really miss the bullrush shenanigans in 3.5 though: The knockback feat was especially brutal, letting you bullrush someone by hitting them really hard with your weapon, and adding your power attack damage bonus as a bonus to the bullrush attempt. Go large sized anything, grab a big hammer and take a 2 level dip in fighter for the Dungeoncrasher ACF that said that anything you bullrushed into a wall took bonus damage. Then go play baseball with anything weaker than you.)

[Selion]

Why don't you multiclass paladin/bloodrager (bloodragers have not alignment limitations)
You may select the abyssal bloodline and play a character that try to follow his deity, but must fight with his blood heredity (maybe an ancestor had a pact with a demon), and occasionally become bloodthirsty and brutal.

God, now i want to do play this character myself :D

[Novawurmson]

Why don't you multiclass paladin/bloodrager (bloodragers have not alignment limitations)
You may select the abyssal bloodline and play a character that try to follow his deity, but must fight with his blood heredity (maybe an ancestor had a pact with a demon), and occasionally become bloodthirsty and brutal.

God, now i want to do play this character myself :D

I started making a build for my VMC guide that's Bloodrager VMC Paladin (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=510067). I took celestial bloodline pretty much purely for fluff reasons. This way, you get full character level=class level for your bloodrage abilities and casting, plus lay on hands and smite evil with decent scaling.

[Iamacup]

I thought about the bloodrager mix and decided that I wanted to really not dibble in magic at all. I initially was going to go for the Primalist rager, but I wanted pure, barbarian, chaos.
I like the look of trip for damage, with come and get me, I can manage a few AoO against me. If I find a place to fit it in it could be funny.