Bard/Warblade

[Masakan]

So as many know 4Bard/16 Warblade is a very common build for many people
Would 16 Bard/4 Warblade have a similar effect?

[Red Fel]

So as many know 4Bard/16 Warblade is a very common build for many people
Would 16 Bard/4 Warblade have a similar effect?

The short answer is, Oh my goodness, no.

Have you read these classes? Warblade progresses martial maneuvers and a string of neat class features. Bard progresses bardic music, spellcasting, and bardic knowledge.

Now, the reason these classes may be found together is due to the Song of the White Raven feat in Tome of Battle. This feat allows your Crusader or Warblade levels to stack with your Bard levels for the purpose of Inspire Courage.

So the combination of how many levels you want to take of each depends on what you want. A Bard 4/ Warblade 16 will give you lots of powerful maneuvers and class features. A Bard 16/ Warblade 4 will have more use of bardic music, and a smattering of maneuvers.

But would they have a similar effect? No, they would not.

[Socratov]

The short answer is, Oh my goodness, no.

Have you read these classes? Warblade progresses martial maneuvers and a string of neat class features. Bard progresses bardic music, spellcasting, and bardic knowledge.

Now, the reason these classes may be found together is due to the Song of the White Raven feat in Tome of Battle. This feat allows your Crusader or Warblade levels to stack with your Bard levels for the purpose of Inspire Courage.

So the combination of how many levels you want to take of each depends on what you want. A Bard 4/ Warblade 16 will give you lots of powerful maneuvers and class features. A Bard 16/ Warblade 4 will have more use of bardic music, and a smattering of maneuvers.

But would they have a similar effect? No, they would not.

though, to be fair you are forgettin gspells. Bard 4 gets you a couple of 1st. level spells while bard 16 gets you a lot more spells in various usefulness degrees and with the right manuevers could make for quite an effective support caster/initiator.

[Lateral]

No, of course not. A Bard 4/Warblade 16 is a Warblade with Inspire Courage, a Warblade 4/Bard 16 is a Bard with a few low-level maneuvers. Song of the White Raven stacks the classes only for Inspire Courage, not for maneuvers, which is why the standard build is mostly Warblade.

[Dusk Eclipse]

You are also forgetting the BAB differences, the Bard 4/Warblade 16 Bardblade) gets 19 BAB at level 20 while Bard 16/Warblade 4 (Warbard) gets 16 at 20. Now both of them get 4 attacks which is usually wanted for martial characters (even more if you are going into Epic levels), but the Bardblade has a smoother curve and can access to some excellent feats with BAB pre-requisites, faster than the Warbard, for example the usual combo of Robilar's Gambit+Stormguard Warrior comes online 2 or 3 levels sooner for the Bardblade than the Warbard.

[Masakan]

You are also forgetting the BAB differences, the Bard 4/Warblade 16 Bardblade) gets 19 BAB at level 20 while Bard 16/Warblade 4 (Warbard) gets 16 at 20. Now both of them get 4 attacks which is usually wanted for martial characters (even more if you are going into Epic levels), but the Bardblade has a smoother curve and can access to some excellent feats with BAB pre-requisites, faster than the Warbard, for example the usual combo of Robilar's Gambit+Stormguard Warrior comes online 2 or 3 levels sooner for the Bardblade than the Warbard.

Oh I'm aware of that, the bardblade would be the guy on the front lines with the rest of the bruisers, the warbard is more the support fighter who focuses on assisting their team and keeping them alive, both would make good use of the white raven discipline regardless. But the warbard would easily have more of a caster base and would throw out debilitating spells like loves lament, while bardblade would just keep inspire courage on all the time possibly having DFI and helping the big damage dealers damage even mroe.

[Lateral]

Oh I'm aware of that, the bardblade would be the guy on the front lines with the rest of the bruisers, the warbard is more the support fighter who focuses on assisting their team and keeping them alive, both would make good use of the white raven discipline regardless.
No, no, that's the thing. There is no 'warbard.' The reason that nobody talks about it is because it is a waste of time. A Bard 16/Warblade 4 gains one point of BAB and a few low-level maneuvers (which he doesn't have the BAB to use effectively) over a Bard 20, in exchange for 4 lost caster levels. A Bard 4/Warblade 16 loses two initiator levels (still gaining 9ths), one point of BAB, and the Warblade capstone, in exchange for full Inspire Courage. There's just no comparison.

[Masakan]

No, no, that's the thing. There is no 'warbard.' The reason that nobody talks about it is because it is a waste of time. A Bard 16/Warblade 4 gains one point of BAB and a few low-level maneuvers (which he doesn't have the BAB to use effectively) over a Bard 20, in exchange for 4 lost caster levels. A Bard 4/Warblade 16 loses two initiator levels (still gaining 9ths), one point of BAB, and the Warblade capstone, in exchange for full Inspire Courage. There's just no comparison.
In other words hitting things harder is better.

[Socratov]

are the manuevers you select so much better then the spells you lose? Or have I gone into an alternate dimension where "spells" is not simultaneously the answer to any of DnD's Problem?

[Extra Anchovies]

Spells are definitely stronger, but any caster who already has access to their highest level of spells should dip one level of Warblade for the Diamond Mind save-replacing maneuvers, unless they're not maxing Concentration for some weird reason.

[Hiro Quester]

Spells are definitely stronger, but any caster who already has access to their highest level of spells should dip one level of Warblade for the Diamond Mind save-replacing maneuvers, unless they're not maxing Concentration for some weird reason.

Like the weird reason that they're a bard, with melodic casting, which replaces the need for ranks in concentration altogether, because you make a perform check instead.

That's why there's few Warbards. If you go Bard 16, you might as well go all the way. Dipping warblade just loses caster levels, and doesn't add that much you need.

[Vhaidara]

In other words hitting things harder is better.

No. Bard 20 is honestly stronger than Bard 4/Warblade 16. However, it is also monumentally stronger than Warblade 4/Bard 16, because those Warblade levels do next to nothing for you compared to what another 4 bard levels would have done.

[Masakan]

No. Bard 20 is honestly stronger than Bard 4/Warblade 16. However, it is also monumentally stronger than Warblade 4/Bard 16, because those Warblade levels do next to nothing for you compared to what another 4 bard levels would have done.

Hold on, are you saying gishes are weak?

[Vhaidara]

Excuse me? Where did I say that? You've done this a lot in the other thread, where you but words in the mouth of people who don't agree with you.

Gishes are plenty strong. You aren't playing an even halfway decent gish. Good gish builds generally don't have more than 5 levels in non prestige classes. Especially since the gold standard for gish is 16 bab and 9th level spells, or at least 8th. Bards can make functional gishes, but the warblade levels do almost nothing for them.

By comparison, bard levels on a warblade gives you song of the white Raven, ie, full inspire courage, ie, the strongest bard ability a melee type can get. While still reaching 9th level maneuvers pretty much on schedule.

[Masakan]

{{Scrubbed}}

[Lateral]

{{Scrubbed}}
No. You do not get to play that card. The original question you asked was, and I quote:

So as many know 4Bard/16 Warblade is a very common build for many people
Would 16 Bard/4 Warblade have a similar effect?
The answer to that question, as several people have told you, is a resounding NO. It's simply not a comparable build. End of story. Nobody is saying you can't play as a Bard 16/Warblade 4, just that it's not optimal, which is the discussion that comes up when you ask about a comparison of a relatively unoptimal build to a more optimal build. It's not even about relative considerations of power- a Bard 16/Warblade 4 is probably more powerful than a Bard 4/Warblade 16, it still gets 6th-level Bard spells. But you asked a question, and we answered it. Changing the question after the fact and putting words in other peoples' mouths, dismissing counterarguments as powergaming, that's incredibly disingenuous.

[Masakan]

{{Scrubbed}}

[Masakan]

{{Scrubbed}}

[Val666]

You may play a Dvati Bardblade :v It's like Inspire Courage + DFI and you spend your maneuvers 2 times faster. Also one of the Dvatis can recover all maneuvers while the other execute them c:

[torrasque666]

{{Scrubbed}}.
They didn't tell you "do this way because I said so" they told you that the idea was bad and listed why. Remember that this is a game that has been overanalyzed for the past 12 years. Its not necessarily that its not thinking outside the box, its that the box is large and most ideas have been explored by a variety of people. 12 years for ideas to be tried and tested. 12 years to see what works well and what doesn't. 12 years, or 9 in the case of the Warbard, to know why it doesn't achieve its desired goals.

You asked a question and got an answer you didn't like. Boo hoo. Not all ideas are good ones and what would be worse? Finding out that your build isn't that great in-game and have all that effort wasted and have egg on your face? Or have someone let you know ahead of time that "eh, its not the best. You may want to do XYZ instead"? Because one has you looking like a fool to the people you play with and know in person. The other has you looking like a fool, but redeemable, to people you don't know and likely never will.

[Twurps]

{{Scrubbed}}

generally: If you don't want to hear the answer, don't ask the question.

specifically:If you're set on playing a bard4/warblade16, and nothing else, then why ask us to compare it to anything else?
If it's set in stone, just play it. There's no reason why you shouldn't have fun with it. If parts of your build are unfinished, you can come here for advice. It would really help though if you would indicate which parts are already set in stone.

Asking someone for an opinion, and then getting upset if you get one is REALLY bad manners though.

[ComaVision]

I{{Scrubbed}}

It took you 4 months to come up with Bard 16/Warblade 4?

[Troacctid]

And why Warblade 4? That's not really a breakpoint that makes sense. Usually with a Bardblade or Bardsader you go Bard 4 because that's the cutoff to get 2nd level spells, and it segues conveniently into 2nd level maneuvers with your first level of Warblade. Neither of those factors are in play if you're splitting in the other direction. It would be much more logical to do something like Bard 8/Warblade 1/Bard +11. Or, even better, finish off the build with Sublime Chord into Virtuoso or Jade Phoenix Mage, depending on whether you want to put more emphasis into maneuvers or Inspire Courage.