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Freelance GM
2015-08-30, 04:45 PM
So, I'm making a bunch of dungeon maps for my next campaign, and I've noticed I'm getting hyper-realistic with the details.

Like, the watchtower I just finished actually has authentic, historically correct medieval bathrooms.

So, I recognize that many dungeons would not have bathrooms, but I wanted to ask the playground:

Players: Do your GMs do stuff like this, too? Do you notice? Do you appreciate the attention to detail, or are rooms like lounges and bathrooms just dead space in between exciting encounters?

DMs: Are there any rules or guidelines you use when you're creating a dungeon, such as "there must be at least one bed or nest per resident monster," or "there must be at least one source of food and water?"

I don't know, I thought it might be a fun topic to discuss. It seems like there's a distinction between dungeons with rooms that create cool encounters (D&D 4E's Kobold Hall), and ones with rooms that would logically be in that location (Edge of the Empire's GM Kit's adventure, Debts to Pay).

Which do you prefer?

How fine is the line between the two?

Mr. Bitter
2015-08-30, 05:05 PM
I try not to put anything in that might waste player time. I'd rather have six rooms with interesting challenges than thirty rooms with ten challenges. Like, I'd much rather have a Monster Watering Hole than Yet Another Orc Privy. I'm not dogmatic about this, though.

NRSASD
2015-08-30, 05:35 PM
Agreeing with Mr. Bitter. I always try to make my dungeon "make sense" unless it's not supposed to, simply because it helps me write up the story and encounters behind it. I draw on real world architecture all the time when designing civilized dwellings (comes with being an archaeologist), but in general I just go with what feels right. As far as bathrooms go, chamber pots are pretty darn ubiquitous.

Freelance GM
2015-08-30, 05:39 PM
I'd rather have six rooms with interesting challenges than thirty rooms with ten challenges.

That actually reminds me of another thing!

It seems like there's a pendulum swinging back and forth between keyed encounters (like the later half of 3.5, and all of 4E), where enemies wait in a room until their specific encounter is triggered, and unscripted encounters, where monsters wander throughout the dungeon at the DM's whim.

Keyed encounters are great because there's some really cool stuff you can do with them, but they feel extremely video-gamey.

Unscripted encounters are great because they feel more natural, but they can quickly turn a balanced encounter into a deathtrap.

Which do you prefer in your varyingly realistic dungeons?

mephnick
2015-08-30, 06:38 PM
I generally do keyed encounters that shift depending on the circumstances. Ghouls from room 4 will be attracted to a door being broken open or sounds of combat in room 3, but will not move if the party is quiet.

I'd do wandering encounters in a large dungeon, but I never do those any more because of the prepwork involved. Mine are usually under 10 rooms.

Keltest
2015-08-30, 07:09 PM
As a general rule, I have two kinds of dungeons. One kind is the random dungeon crawl dungeon, which is made specifically to be adventured in. Exploration is rewarded, but not required, and you can generally get the gist of the dungeon with minimal sidetracking.

The other kind is a pre-planned structure that serves a specific purpose. A barracks, for example, will have sleeping quarters, armories, etcetera... while a manner house might have regular rooms, along with a secret dungeon for kidnapping people.

Darth Ultron
2015-08-30, 09:20 PM
Keyed encounters are great because there's some really cool stuff you can do with them, but they feel extremely video-gamey.

Kinda funny as keyed encounters are far older then video games.....


My dungeons are always realistic, with everything a ''real'' dungeon would need: air, light, water, exits and so forth. I often put more detail then needed for the game, or that even gets used. But it is there.

I even put so much detail into dungeons that it confuses the more modern player that thinks absurdly everything is something important, just as it was mentioned. Like the way fiction is done for the masses. But I'm fine relaxing for an hour while the players go all crazy trying to figure out why there are fish in a small pool of water

LaserFace
2015-08-30, 09:38 PM
So, I'm making a bunch of dungeon maps for my next campaign, and I've noticed I'm getting hyper-realistic with the details.

Like, the watchtower I just finished actually has authentic, historically correct medieval bathrooms.

So, I recognize that many dungeons would not have bathrooms, but I wanted to ask the playground:

Players: Do your GMs do stuff like this, too? Do you notice? Do you appreciate the attention to detail, or are rooms like lounges and bathrooms just dead space in between exciting encounters?

DMs: Are there any rules or guidelines you use when you're creating a dungeon, such as "there must be at least one bed or nest per resident monster," or "there must be at least one source of food and water?"

I don't know, I thought it might be a fun topic to discuss. It seems like there's a distinction between dungeons with rooms that create cool encounters (D&D 4E's Kobold Hall), and ones with rooms that would logically be in that location (Edge of the Empire's GM Kit's adventure, Debts to Pay).

Which do you prefer?

How fine is the line between the two?

I think it's important to keep the pace going, but a DM should be ready to answer basic questions like "What do the monsters eat" and whatever. As such, when I DM I don't really devote much time to rooms that have nothing worthwhile to find in them. If they even get mentioned, their descriptions will probably be joined to that of a larger chamber, ie "you're now in the main hall, and have passed a few small empty chambers that may have been used for A, B and C. Anyway, in the hall you see X, Y and Z."

While I find it good to be ready to answer questions players might have, I think beyond their immediate concerns the Less Is More approach works better because you leave more to player imagination and keep the excitement moving well.

goto124
2015-08-30, 10:11 PM
Has anyone suggested Dung Fu?


But I'm fine relaxing for an hour while the players go all crazy trying to figure out why there are fish in a small pool of water

Eheheheh. Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Roll Knowledge (Underwater Creatures)...

I figured it work better in computer games and PbP, where time contraints ('Everyone, we already wasted more than a hour in this dungeon we'd better hurry up and move on to the boss!') aren't a concern.

Balmas
2015-08-30, 11:11 PM
As a general rule, it's more important to me that my dungeons make sense, than that every little detail is replicated. So for example, my dungeon may have a barracks with a few monsters there, but probably not a bathroom or kitchen. It's more important that there's a coherent design.

Incidentally, this extends to other dungeon hazards. There isn't going to be cheesewire at eye-level unless the inhabitants of the dungeon are short enough to walk under it. There aren't going to be death-scythes in the living quarters. If there's a long hallway straight to the boss room, you can bet that it's going to be a deathtrap, and PCs know that. However, the dungeon denizens also know that by pulling the ear on the gargoyle, there's a passage to where they live, so that they don't have to navigate the corridor of death every time they leave.

goto124
2015-08-30, 11:32 PM
'There aren't going to be death-scythes in the living quarters.'

Of course! It's called a living room, no one should die in there!

What does 'dungeon' mean in this thread, by the way? I thought 'dungeon' meant the stereotypical kind that tends not to make much sense, while people have used it to mean houses, barracks, etc.

JAL_1138
2015-08-30, 11:56 PM
But I'm fine relaxing for an hour while the players go all crazy trying to figure out why there are fish in a small pool of water

You can never be too careful about random fish in dungeons, no matter how small and harmless they look. They could be Death Minnows. (http://www.lomion.de/cmm/deatminn.php)

JAL_1138
2015-08-31, 12:34 AM
As a general rule, it's more important to me that my dungeons make sense, than that every little detail is replicated. So for example, my dungeon may have a barracks with a few monsters there, but probably not a bathroom or kitchen. It's more important that there's a coherent design.

Incidentally, this extends to other dungeon hazards. There isn't going to be cheesewire at eye-level unless the inhabitants of the dungeon are short enough to walk under it. There aren't going to be death-scythes in the living quarters. If there's a long hallway straight to the boss room, you can bet that it's going to be a deathtrap, and PCs know that. However, the dungeon denizens also know that by pulling the ear on the gargoyle, there's a passage to where they live, so that they don't have to navigate the corridor of death every time they leave.


You mean to tell me you don't have cheesewire at eye level in your house? I've had back problems for years from ducking under it in my place, and walking hunched-over to avoid it at night. Occasionally I use strong grey thread (or low-visibility braided fishing-line--not monofilament, it's all fluorescent nowadays) with treble-hooks strung on it instead, if I'm feeling really mean. [Disclaimer (for the inevitable person who'll take the joke the wrong way, either as a statement of fact or as some kind of home-defense advice, of which it is neither): that is a blatant lie for comedic purposes only and I have never done such a thing IRL nor do I advocate it in any way. Never do that sort of thing IRL for any reason. If the horrible nature of the injuries it could easily inflict isn't reason enough not to do it, booby-trapping a location is incredibly illegal pretty much everywhere because of the potential grievous harm to emergency responders or law enforcement. Seriously, don't do it.]

And of course there aren't going to be death-scythes in the living room. Those go in the dining room. The tapestry made of brown mold and the collapsing floor into the 40' deep 10'x10' pit with the gelatinous cube taking up the bottom 10' are for the living room.

It Sat Rap
2015-08-31, 02:26 AM
Most of the classical underground dungeons are quite unrealistic, but I tend to furnish my dungeons with things that make sense, even if they don't serve any kind of challenge. I pay attention to these things:

-Food and water supply for inhabitants.
-Light sources if the creatures there don't have darkvision.
-Air supply, through vents or magical.
-Bathrooms or at least an outhouse for intelligent inhabitants.
-Rooms for amusement. Only in video games the NPC is standing 24/7 on his watch!
-Beds or nests of course.
-Workbenches to craft and repair weapons and similar.
-Large groups of intelligent inhabitants should have an infirmary.
-Shrines for the believers.
-A kitchen and storage rooms.
-Remember: Nobody would place a trap in a place where he could accidently set a foot in it himself!

MrConsideration
2015-08-31, 05:52 AM
I generally include versimilitude where I can (Look! Here's the tastefully-decorated Goblin pantry!) but I think players, or at least my players, don't really notice or care, and if your dungeon was Orcs in 10" rooms I don't think they'd question it.

goto124
2015-08-31, 08:51 AM
(Look! Here's the tastefully-decorated Goblin pantry!)

Tastefully-decorated by goblin standards, you mean.

Freelance GM
2015-08-31, 09:00 AM
'There aren't going to be death-scythes in the living quarters.'

Of course! It's called a living room, no one should die in there!

What does 'dungeon' mean in this thread, by the way? I thought 'dungeon' meant the stereotypical kind that tends not to make much sense, while people have used it to mean houses, barracks, etc.

Literally any kind of 'dungeon' is up for discussion. 5-Room Dungeons, Gygaxian labyrinths, abandoned houses, cave networks, collapsed temples, Demilich deathtraps, Frost Giant fotresses, etc.

Even a house dungeon needs to feel like an actual house. Logically, the rooms would be tightly packed, there are few, if any corridors, and there are rooms like a living room and a dining room, instead of an acid bath and 100' long pendulum blade hall.

Unless it's JAL_1138's house. Then it can compromise for having both. With a tasteful amount of Goblin bone art.

Yora
2015-08-31, 09:04 AM
I like environments to be as plausible for the circumstances as possible. Which is why I don't use floorplans for whole buildings. Instead I do flowcharts of how the important areas are connected and perhaps very rough sketches of likely battlefields, so players have an idea where any pieces of cover, chasms, and bridges are in relation to each other. Furniture, wiring, and plumbing is there, but it just doesn't get mentioned unless it becomes relevant. And at that point you can easily add it, since there's no existing floorplans it could conflict with.

JAL_1138
2015-08-31, 10:11 AM
Unless it's JAL_1138's house. Then it can compromise for having both. With a tasteful amount of Goblin bone art.

Which also launches poison-tipped darts. :smallbiggrin:

Frozen_Feet
2015-08-31, 10:58 AM
I've always been an adherent of Gygaxian naturalism and like fairly realistic dungeons. Especially if the "dungeon" is a house, castle or something else someone is supposed to live in. I often use real buildings and places as inspiration. I'm a plumber and construction worker by profession, I have a lot of real experience of planning and crawling through some interesting and "interesting" places.

And in said experience, mundane details become surprisingly interesting if you look at them without full knowledge of what they are or why they are there. The factory I work in daily becomes a cross between Mordor and Zelda-style puzzle dungeon, complete with switches which move blocks around when you step on them. Rummaging through a perfectly normal apartment becomes an adventure in itself if you pay enough attention to them.

... and now I want to run a campaign where players are all burglars and do just that.

I do occasionally make use of highly random or surreal places too, though. It's to push myself and players outside the established comfort zone. So in above burglar campaign, eventually one of the ordinary buildings would serve as a lead-in to a far weirder place (a la God That Crawls) or be occupied by something clearly not belonging there (a la Death Love Doom). I'm also a big fan of "twilight zones", ie. places which mimic or mock outward trappings of something "real", but follow a twisted dream logic in how they operate (a la Death Frost Doom and Red & Pleasant Land).

Inevitability
2015-08-31, 11:11 AM
I try to make my dungeons make sense, but I honestly don't think the players would care if I didn't. Still, if for example I am creating a trapped dragon cave, I make sure all traps can be avoided either through flight (for the dragon) or secret passages/weighted triggers (the kobolds).

MrConsideration
2015-08-31, 11:11 AM
Tastefully-decorated by goblin standards, you mean.

To Goblins, 'tastefully' means you wouldn't object to eating it.

Frozen_Feet
2015-08-31, 11:22 AM
A lot of people here say things like "players probably wouldn't notice".

I don't think that's true. A lot of players don't remark on things like this during game, but give them a five minute break and suddenly someone goes "wait, where do these things sleep?" or some such. It's a willing suspension of disbelief thing. Most people, especially those accustomed to video games, are happy to accept and operate in the in-game moon logic as it happens, but once a game is over the unrealism becomes glaringly apparent and often a bottomless well of game-related humour.

Havelocke
2015-08-31, 12:36 PM
As a DM, it depends on what the location is. For example, if the dungeon is a tomb designed to protect treasures, there may be loads of traps and deadly critters waiting in the wings with a few random wandering gribbly things. If the dungeon is more of an underground living ecosystem, then I would make it more realistic. I agree with what It Sat Rap said, make sure the intelligent denizens have proper life support (food, water, air, waste management), recreation/work/faith areas, and proper defenses depending on how paranoid the residents are. Most people lock their doors, but I do not have pendulum scythes on my front porch, I do NOT want a lawsuit from the post office! If the residents of your dungeon have an active trade industry, they may have more guards and less traps since they expect company. However if they are more secluded or solitary, then by all means, load that thing up with traps from floor to ceiling! Post guards 24/7 with a full rotation of fresh manpower or use constructs (golems, gargoyles, warforged, etc...)

The Grue
2015-08-31, 01:26 PM
But I'm fine relaxing for an hour while the players go all crazy trying to figure out why there are fish in a small pool of water


You can never be too careful about random fish in dungeons, no matter how small and harmless they look. They could be Death Minnows. (http://www.lomion.de/cmm/deatminn.php)

Possibly, but I find it's more commonly red herrings.

Nifft
2015-08-31, 03:55 PM
Most of the classical underground dungeons are quite unrealistic, but I tend to furnish my dungeons with things that make sense, even if they don't serve any kind of challenge. I pay attention to these things:

-Food and water supply for inhabitants.
-Light sources if the creatures there don't have darkvision.
-Air supply, through vents or magical.
-Bathrooms or at least an outhouse for intelligent inhabitants.
-Rooms for amusement. Only in video games the NPC is standing 24/7 on his watch!
-Beds or nests of course.
-Workbenches to craft and repair weapons and similar.
-Large groups of intelligent inhabitants should have an infirmary.
-Shrines for the believers.
-A kitchen and storage rooms.
-Remember: Nobody would place a trap in a place where he could accidently set a foot in it himself!

Yeah, this is what I do as well.

When I remember, I also try to create some obvious "official" routes and "unofficial" routes -- the latter being what the soldiers are not supposed to do, but do anyway because it's convenient. That kind of thing facilitates stealth *greatly* while not making the inhabitants behave in an implausibly incompetent way.

The traps along the route which separate the unofficial route from the official route will tend to be easier to circumvent or disable.

- - -

An example from a modern setting: the server room (in a location where I totally never worked) is very secure and well guarded and behind several offices, but it also was on the way to the internal fire escape staircase, and two janitors would regularly wedge the server door open to have a smoke in the staircase.

Getting past the front desk wouldn't be easy. Sneaking into the server room wouldn't be easy. But getting into the fire escape staircase from a different floor and waiting for the janitors to open the backdoor? Dead easy.

BootStrapTommy
2015-08-31, 05:25 PM
If I make a fortess, I do make the walls 20ft+ thick. But no, I don't waste time and space with bathrooms or other frivolities.

goto124
2015-08-31, 09:42 PM
'You see- and smell- a lot of bird poop.'
'Ewww! Why can't they just use the toilet?'
'They're birds. They have trouble holding it in.'

Gamgee
2015-08-31, 09:57 PM
Well they stumbled onto a dungeon with a million floors they can't access. So far they've cleared one of the floors. 999,999 to go right? I never intend for them to access those other rooms but they're crafty in this weird post apocalyptic future. At any rate no I don't. As long as it's fun and interesting.

Mr. Bitter
2015-08-31, 10:07 PM
You mean to tell me you don't have cheesewire at eye level in your house?

In lieu of cheesewire, I keep a katana in each room within easy reach. It just makes sense.


It seems like there's a pendulum swinging back and forth between keyed encounters (like the later half of 3.5, and all of 4E), where enemies wait in a room until their specific encounter is triggered, and unscripted encounters, where monsters wander throughout the dungeon at the DM's whim.

I think the best dungeons have clever interactions between keyed and random encounter. And reinforcements. And monster nests that produce more monsters over time. And a band of monsters returning home to the dungeon via the same entrance the players used.

goto124
2015-08-31, 10:11 PM
But what happens if the PCs (try to) kill the baby monsters and crush the eggs?

HidesHisEyes
2015-09-01, 04:33 AM
One option if you want a dungeon that's realistic but not boring is to include kitchens, beds and privies as "set dressing". Just say like "behind this door is living quarters - you have a look around and find nothing of interest" and move on. Some players may not like this approach as it detracts from the feeling that you're in a fully realised world to be explored at your leisure, but I think pacing is more important really.

FlumphPaladin
2015-09-01, 07:08 AM
I did this the first campaign I DM'd. The dwarves in the big city where the adventure was set had some problems with organized crime, and they'd constructed an underground base of operations, with entrances and air vents in the ground floor of decoy houses on the surface.

And then one of my players said "I take a dump in the air vent"...

JAL_1138
2015-09-01, 10:26 AM
I did this the first campaign I DM'd. The dwarves in the big city where the adventure was set had some problems with organized crime, and they'd constructed an underground base of operations, with entrances and air vents in the ground floor of decoy houses on the surface.

And then one of my players said "I take a dump in the air vent"...

At least it wasn't a modern campaign, so your players couldn't go "I leave the fake house, go to Wal-Mart and Lowe's, come back, and mix a boatload of muriatic acid and bleach right next to the air intake." Your bunker is below ground and chlorine gas is heavier than air...

MrZJunior
2015-09-01, 10:49 AM
I like to make dungeons as accurate as possible and I try to avoid set piece encounters, I find them dull compared to more organic encounters.

Mr. Bitter
2015-09-03, 10:08 AM
One option if you want a dungeon that's realistic but not boring is to include kitchens, beds and privies as "set dressing". Just say like "behind this door is living quarters - you have a look around and find nothing of interest" and move on. Some players may not like this approach as it detracts from the feeling that you're in a fully realised world to be explored at your leisure, but I think pacing is more important really.

Exactly. If you're going to have rooms that do not further the action, be up front with your players and gloss over them so you don't waste precious minutes at the table going through underwear drawers.

Threadnaught
2015-09-03, 10:23 AM
The dungeons are as realistic as everything else.

Hundreds of not real Dragons flying around the world while not real magical wizards transport not real armies across not real dimensions instantly and not real Undead roam the land looking for the next not real big bash.


Yeah, they're not real dungeons. There's absolutely nothing "realistic" about being stuck in a not real dungeon made up of magical energy, with varying gravity and with black holes behaving as pit traps in anti-magic sections, spike traps that are a colossal entity with readied actions to fire spines into adventurers, living architecture, a world within a word and an upside down version of Sharn... All inside a whale.
Not a giant whale. Not a whale so massive it is capable of containing all that because it is the size of a planet, but a simple immortal Orca that cannot be slain.
Non of that is realistic, I don't care how many facilities I include to make it more believable, it just isn't realistic and it never will be. Because it isn't real.

Takewo
2015-09-03, 10:23 AM
Exactly. If you're going to have rooms that do not further the action, be up front with your players and gloss over them so you don't waste precious minutes at the table going through underwear drawers.

One thing I have learnt in my experience is never underestimate the player's ability to make something really fun and interesting out of the most frivolous trivialities.

Unless, of course, you want to railroad them.

Jay R
2015-09-03, 05:01 PM
Exactly. If you're going to have rooms that do not further the action, be up front with your players and gloss over them so you don't waste precious minutes at the table going through underwear drawers.

Don't your monsters hide treasure in their underwear drawers?

goto124
2015-09-04, 04:00 AM
Don't your monsters hide in the underwear drawers, disguised as brief, boxers, etc?

Broken Crown
2015-09-04, 06:21 AM
I use mimics. My monsters are underwear drawers!

goto124
2015-09-04, 07:18 AM
http://www.headinjurytheater.com/images/d&d%20beasts%20mimic%201.jpg
http://www.headinjurytheater.com/images/d&d%20beasts%20ceiling%20monster.jpg
http://www.headinjurytheater.com/images/d&d%20beasts%20trapper%20floor.jpg
http://www.headinjurytheater.com/images/d&D%20beasts%20stun%20jelly.jpg
http://www.headinjurytheater.com/images/d&D%20beasts%20bowler.jpg
http://www.headinjurytheater.com/images/d&d%20beasts%20sheet%20phantom.jpg

JAL_1138
2015-09-04, 09:18 AM
http://www.headinjurytheater.com/images/d&d%20beasts%20mimic%201.jpg
http://www.headinjurytheater.com/images/d&d%20beasts%20ceiling%20monster.jpg
http://www.headinjurytheater.com/images/d&d%20beasts%20trapper%20floor.jpg
http://www.headinjurytheater.com/images/d&D%20beasts%20stun%20jelly.jpg
http://www.headinjurytheater.com/images/d&D%20beasts%20bowler.jpg
http://www.headinjurytheater.com/images/d&d%20beasts%20sheet%20phantom.jpg


A Wizard Did It. "Mad Wizard" can explain just about anything.

Although the Mimic, Lurker, and Trapper are not without precedent...

Stick insects, leaf insects, leaf-tailed geckos, stone flounders, mimic octopodes, cuttlefish, angel sharks, stonefish, spider-tailed snakes, baron caterpillars (and so many other caterpillars it could be a whole page), pitcher plants, certain seahorses...there are so many kinds of weird camouflage in nature they're not really that farfetched.

Especially the mimic octopus--look 'em up on Youtube sometime, they're amazing.

YossarianLives
2015-09-04, 09:52 AM
But what happens if the PCs (try to) kill the baby monsters and crush the eggs?
You let them murder the children, and move on, if you want to be nice, give your players a nice gruesome description of the slaughter.

Thrudd
2015-09-04, 10:21 AM
The dungeons are as realistic as everything else.

Hundreds of not real Dragons flying around the world while not real magical wizards transport not real armies across not real dimensions instantly and not real Undead roam the land looking for the next not real big bash.


Yeah, they're not real dungeons. There's absolutely nothing "realistic" about being stuck in a not real dungeon made up of magical energy, with varying gravity and with black holes behaving as pit traps in anti-magic sections, spike traps that are a colossal entity with readied actions to fire spines into adventurers, living architecture, a world within a word and an upside down version of Sharn... All inside a whale.
Not a giant whale. Not a whale so massive it is capable of containing all that because it is the size of a planet, but a simple immortal Orca that cannot be slain.
Non of that is realistic, I don't care how many facilities I include to make it more believable, it just isn't realistic and it never will be. Because it isn't real.

So you're in the "it's fantasy, so nothing has to make sense" camp.

I like my worlds to make sense. Living organic creatures have biological needs, whatever their origins are. Populating your fantasy world with details that give insight into how it might function as a "natural" environment, albeit with magic and slightly altered laws of physics, helps players get immersed and is a good exercise for the DM to develop the world. "It's magic" should not be the only explanation the DM has for any question about how the world works.

Threadnaught
2015-09-04, 12:58 PM
So you're in the "it's fantasy, so nothing has to make sense" camp.

Nope. It's fantasy, so it can be as outlandish as I want it to be.

TheOOB
2015-09-04, 01:08 PM
I always try to consider why the dungeon exists and how it was made, but I think mechanics of play take precedence over any sort of realism. I'd rather have a dungeon that's fun to go through then one that has a bunch of negative space that doesn't matter.

I also try not to overdesign dungeons, I prefer to have flexibility to adjust the dungeon on the fly.

Thrudd
2015-09-04, 03:04 PM
Nope. It's fantasy, so it can be as outlandish as I want it to be.

Outlandish is fine. But I still want to know how the creatures living inside the extra dimensional orca survive. Do they eat and reproduce and create waste? How do intelligent creatures organize their societies? What motivates the living spike creature? Does it eat the things it kills, or is it defending its nest or territory? How did all those black holes get there? If everything is actually a magical living construct of some kind, who built it and why?
If gangs of monsters are found somewhere, how did they get there and how long have they been there and what do they eat and what do they want.
That's what we're talking about when we say "realistic" dungeons. There are details which help make sense of things in the context of the fantasy world, which can be as outlandish as you want

Threadnaught
2015-09-04, 06:39 PM
That's what we're talking about when we say "realistic" dungeons. There are details which help make sense of things in the context of the fantasy world, which can be as outlandish as you want


Non of that is realistic, I don't care how many facilities I include to make it more believable, it just isn't realistic and it never will be. Because it isn't real.

There you go, no matter how much verisimilitude I create for such a place, it will never be realistic, because it isn't real.

JAL_1138
2015-09-04, 07:00 PM
So pretend we're saying "verisimilitudinous" instead of "realistic," rather than being pedantic about "real."

valadil
2015-09-04, 08:20 PM
I like and try to create dungeons that are detailed. Whether that detail comes from a history book or a whiskey induced nightmare I had doesn't really matter. What I'd like to avoid is rooms and corridors full of monsters and nothing else.

I think that logic applies to your keyed battle question too. If the players find a cave that leads to a kobold warren, a magic pendulum that summons monsters on a specific interval doesn't make a lot of sense. But if they're breaking into a wizard's vault, go nuts.

Susano-wo
2015-09-05, 03:52 PM
So pretend we're saying "verisimilitudinous" instead of "realistic," rather than being pedantic about "real."

+1
realistic is essentially contains verisimilitude, or makes internal sense (and is also a sliding scale, not generally conceptualized in an absolute sense, even if the language used is often binary). Realistic =/= real. Which is what I want in my dungeons(both ones I design or ones I encounter): realism/verisimilitude/consistency/etc. Though I will not worry about it if someone doesn't put in kitchens or privies--but I will definitely appreciate it if they do.

As far as set piece encounters, I detest them, unless you just mean that certain monsters are by default in certain locations. I don't mind at all if I will always encounter monster X in location A, unless I make a commotion in location C which would logically result in monster X moving. When the things in a dungeon don't react to stimuli it kills my immersion and suspension of disbelief.

HidesHisEyes
2015-09-06, 06:58 AM
One thing I have learnt in my experience is never underestimate the player's ability to make something really fun and interesting out of the most frivolous trivialities.

Unless, of course, you want to railroad them.

I don't want to railroad them, I want to present them with a situation they can explore at their leisure - but only when the situation has exciting stuff in it. Any part of the imaginary world that doesn't have exciting stuff isn't part of gameplay, it's the transitions between the gameplay. This isn't a video game, there is no automated visual simulation of the world for the players to actually explore in real time.

Takewo
2015-09-06, 09:55 AM
Situation: Party has infiltrated in a dungeon but been discovered by someone. They've killed him, but not before he raised the alarm.

Player: Hey, surely there's a toilet somewhere?
GM: Yea, I should suppose so.
Player: I take the body, hide in the toilet room and lock the door.
GM: You do realise that they will eventually knock the door and try to get in, right?
Player: I will try and make that guy's voice and send them away.

DigoDragon
2015-09-06, 10:11 AM
Fantasy dungeons aren't terribly realistic, but those made for modern campaigns I tend to put more thought into them. I'll Google building floor plans and work off those for facilities that are expected to be occupied.

Amusingly, sometimes the PCs will remember that places with some form of workplace safety might incorporate a fire escape map. They'll look for it so they can get a basic layout of the floor they're on. Clever.

NowhereMan583
2015-09-06, 07:35 PM
About five years ago, I designed a dungeon that was both a thorough exercise in verisimilitude and a nonsensical murderous labyrinth that operated on Gygaxian moon-logic.

It was, according to the rumors and urgent pleas for help that had floated to the capital city, the lair of a mad sorceror bent on world domination. The small town a few miles away from this dungeon was thrilled to see people coming to their rescue and made a big fuss over the PCs -- though they frequently advised caution, as many lesser heroes had gone up to the lair on the mountain and never returned. They even had a small magic-mart, run by a retired wizard who had come here for the relaxation of small-town life.

The PCs would climb the mountain, enter the dungeon, and almost immediately be assaulted by exotic beasts -- and, occasionally, orcish mercenaries hired to keep the beasts under control / make sure not too many of them got killed because they're expensive. There were traps in every hallway, and the majority of the rooms seemed to be designed with no purpose other than to slaughter everyone in them. Everything was poisoned, and magical traps were set up every few feet. The layout made no sense, most of the treasure turned out to be illusions covering up a pit or similar, all the traps seemed to reset behind them when they left a room, and whenever they seemed to be doing fairly well, they would suddenly find themselves hassled by crossbow bolts from tiny murderholes in the walls.

A savvy player might have found the well-hidden secret door that led to the orcish mercenary barracks, complete with dining hall, privy, and yes, a small but tasteful chapel. This area, of course, had no traps.

A savvier player might have found the very small and even-better-hidden secret doors that connected to a completely reasonable and trap-free series of kobold-scale tunnels that ran through the dungeon walls.

A truly savvy player might have noticed that not only did none of this make sense, but there was no evidence of any plot for world domination -- if there was a sorceror here, he clearly spent all his time making magical traps to screw with adventurers. That player might have gone on to realize that these mercenaries and exotic beasts represented a sizable investment, and they hadn't found any trace of the valuable gear the last hundred or so wannabe heroes had come in with... and speaking of gear, these magic items they'd bought in town seemed to be dangerously -- even intentionally -- defective...

Yeah. The whole thing was an elaborate trap designed to attract the kind of people who walk into dungeons with hundreds of thousands of gp worth of stuff on them. The profit margins were slim -- workable, though; I think I actually did the math -- but the kobold tribe who'd set it up was mostly motivated by misanthropy and spite anyway.

I'd mapped out the caverns under the dungeon where the kobolds lived, and made sure they had everything they needed, from fresh air and light (via some tunnels to the surface that the players never looked for) to food and water (the standard fungus garden / subterranean lake setup, plus a few fairly standard farms on a different part of the mountain). I had a lot of free time and an odd sense of fun.

Unfortunately, the only way for someone bigger than a kobold to enter these caverns was through some of the deepest pit traps -- the bottoms of which were holding pens near the kobold kitchens. I think there was even one room, full of smoke and metal gratings, that intersected a kobold chimney -- and it was possible to trigger a trap that dropped you two hundred feet down into a cooking fire. Kobolds need protein too.

I also decided that the kobolds were ecologically responsible enough to use EVERY part of the adventurer, so on the rare occasion that the PCs saw a kobold resetting one of the traps, said trapsmith would be dressed in garments of odd-looking leather with bone clasps.

JAL_1138
2015-09-06, 07:53 PM
About five years ago, I designed a dungeon that was both a thorough exercise in verisimilitude and a nonsensical murderous labyrinth that operated on Gygaxian moon-logic.

It was, according to the rumors and urgent pleas for help that had floated to the capital city, the lair of a mad sorceror bent on world domination. The small town a few miles away from this dungeon was thrilled to see people coming to their rescue and made a big fuss over the PCs -- though they frequently advised caution, as many lesser heroes had gone up to the lair on the mountain and never returned. They even had a small magic-mart, run by a retired wizard who had come here for the relaxation of small-town life.

The PCs would climb the mountain, enter the dungeon, and almost immediately be assaulted by exotic beasts -- and, occasionally, orcish mercenaries hired to keep the beasts under control / make sure not too many of them got killed because they're expensive. There were traps in every hallway, and the majority of the rooms seemed to be designed with no purpose other than to slaughter everyone in them. Everything was poisoned, and magical traps were set up every few feet. The layout made no sense, most of the treasure turned out to be illusions covering up a pit or similar, all the traps seemed to reset behind them when they left a room, and whenever they seemed to be doing fairly well, they would suddenly find themselves hassled by crossbow bolts from tiny murderholes in the walls.

A savvy player might have found the well-hidden secret door that led to the orcish mercenary barracks, complete with dining hall, privy, and yes, a small but tasteful chapel. This area, of course, had no traps.

A savvier player might have found the very small and even-better-hidden secret doors that connected to a completely reasonable and trap-free series of kobold-scale tunnels that ran through the dungeon walls.

A truly savvy player might have noticed that not only did none of this make sense, but there was no evidence of any plot for world domination -- if there was a sorceror here, he clearly spent all his time making magical traps to screw with adventurers. That player might have gone on to realize that these mercenaries and exotic beasts represented a sizable investment, and they hadn't found any trace of the valuable gear the last hundred or so wannabe heroes had come in with... and speaking of gear, these magic items they'd bought in town seemed to be dangerously -- even intentionally -- defective...

Yeah. The whole thing was an elaborate trap designed to attract the kind of people who walk into dungeons with hundreds of thousands of gp worth of stuff on them. The profit margins were slim -- workable, though; I think I actually did the math -- but the kobold tribe who'd set it up was mostly motivated by misanthropy and spite anyway.

I'd mapped out the caverns under the dungeon where the kobolds lived, and made sure they had everything they needed, from fresh air and light (via some tunnels to the surface that the players never looked for) to food and water (the standard fungus garden / subterranean lake setup, plus a few fairly standard farms on a different part of the mountain). I had a lot of free time and an odd sense of fun.

Unfortunately, the only way for someone bigger than a kobold to enter these caverns was through some of the deepest pit traps -- the bottoms of which were holding pens near the kobold kitchens. I think there was even one room, full of smoke and metal gratings, that intersected a kobold chimney -- and it was possible to trigger a trap that dropped you two hundred feet down into a cooking fire. Kobolds need protein too.

I also decided that the kobolds were ecologically responsible enough to use EVERY part of the adventurer, so on the rare occasion that the PCs saw a kobold resetting one of the traps, said trapsmith would be dressed in garments of odd-looking leather with bone clasps.


I love it. Love it. Reminds one of the Tomb of Horrors--most of the Tomb of Horrors is designed to deposit massive amounts of adventurers' gear in the Demilich's hoard, either by killing the adventurer carrying it via genre savvy or just as often depositing the adventurer naked but unharmed at the entrance and teleporting their gear to Acererak's inner sanctum. The entire thing is schmuck bait from start to finish. But here it doesn't need an überpowered big bad--just some very, very clever kobolds.

Brilliant.

MrZJunior
2015-09-06, 08:54 PM
Amusingly, sometimes the PCs will remember that places with some form of workplace safety might incorporate a fire escape map. They'll look for it so they can get a basic layout of the floor they're on. Clever.

The building I work in has very confusing and inaccurate maps mounted on the walls. They aren't labeled in any reasonable way, so if you don't know where you are already you have to guess. They show rooms and sometimes corridors which don't exist anymore and haven't for several renovations now. It is speculated that this is deliberate, some sort of security measure or something.

Nifft
2015-09-06, 09:10 PM
About five years ago, I designed a dungeon that was both a thorough exercise in verisimilitude and a nonsensical murderous labyrinth that operated on Gygaxian moon-logic.

(snip)

That's inspiring.

goto124
2015-09-07, 03:39 AM
The kobold-built dungeon is genius.

There should be (magical) cameras in every room. If the dungeons's made mostly out of hate of humans, there should be ways to turn it into a morbid, or hilarous, or morbidly hilarous reality TV show. But for kobolds!

Actually, every dungeon should do this. The sheer amount of money one can make from things like this is amazing.

DigoDragon
2015-09-07, 08:11 AM
The building I work in has very confusing and inaccurate maps mounted on the walls. They aren't labeled in any reasonable way, so if you don't know where you are already you have to guess. They show rooms and sometimes corridors which don't exist anymore and haven't for several renovations now. It is speculated that this is deliberate, some sort of security measure or something.

Well I'm no Fire Marshall so I don't know if that violates any rules, but it would make for a clever little bit. PCs grab a copy of the fire escape plan, turns out that map hasn't been updated in two decades and the building has been renovated since...

Bard1cKnowledge
2015-09-07, 10:00 AM
I once built a decrepit mansion, two stories. Complete with servants quarters, kitchen, larder/storage, wine cellar, library and private studies. It has been (mostly) abandoned for the past fifty years and has been overrun with homunculi, spiders, and a few dire rats.

The group Barbarian entered the larder and had to make a Fortitude save or be sickened by the smell of rotting meat/veggies. There was going to be an encounter with a Lich, but most of the group left so that happened

MrZJunior
2015-09-07, 07:50 PM
Well I'm no Fire Marshall so I don't know if that violates any rules, but it would make for a clever little bit. PCs grab a copy of the fire escape plan, turns out that map hasn't been updated in two decades and the building has been renovated since...

I'm not really sure.

It used to be that governments would keep plans for the various fortresses they built on file, but often these plans bore very little resemblance to the actual structure. Fortresses would be designed but never finished, or finished centuries later, or finished to a completely different plan.

DigoDragon
2015-09-08, 07:54 AM
I'm not really sure.

It used to be that governments would keep plans for the various fortresses they built on file, but often these plans bore very little resemblance to the actual structure. Fortresses would be designed but never finished, or finished centuries later, or finished to a completely different plan.

Oooh, that inspired me. Scenario: PCs explore an abandoned building, they notice the fire escape plan doesn't match the actual floor plan-- there's a hallway on the map that is just a walled section. Break through the wall and they find an older part of the building that was sealed off.

But WHY was it sealed off? Dun dun dunnnnn...
(well, yeah it could be a mundane reason, but that's not as fun!)

JAL_1138
2015-09-08, 08:20 AM
Oooh, that inspired me. Scenario: PCs explore an abandoned building, they notice the fire escape plan doesn't match the actual floor plan-- there's a hallway on the map that is just a walled section. Break through the wall and they find an older part of the building that was sealed off.

But WHY was it sealed off? Dun dun dunnnnn...
(well, yeah it could be a mundane reason, but that's not as fun!)

Better yet, have enough sections sealed off for a mundane reason (lousy floors, or place to put HVAC, or converted to storage, or under renovation with the wall to be taken down when it's up to the same standard as the newer part, etc.) that people assume that's the reason for every sealed-off section in the building and don't discover the Evil LaboratoryTM until it's too late.

MrStabby
2015-09-08, 09:08 AM
I like to use dungeons to add clues and detail that could lead players to some insight - but it is mainly for my own purposes, and it ensures I keep things consistent.

I do things like make sure the number of beds in a dormitory are not exceeded by number of guards etc. (Once useful as the party hunted down the last guard who was cowering in the corner - they worked out there was someone missing). Toilets I sometimes use but not always - a couple of my players are scared of them after "The Incident With the Roper".

There is usually a kitchen in the place - a knowledge check on some items may reveal the type of creature that usually eats some unusual things.

Variety coupled with the mundane is also quite useful. In the kitchens I once had players cover their escape with a huge cloud of smoke from putting cabbage on the coals of a stove and closing the chimney.

Sometimes the mundane is very important, to highlight what is extraordinary. Inconsistencies in the world to highlight illusions etc.. Likewise you can hint that an NPC is a Necromancer due to spell components on a work bench or similar (although I am not sure that counts as realism)

You can take it too far, and I am sure I do, but sometimes it is a nice touch and it is rewarding when players pick up on it and follow it through.