Coup De Grace, Incorporeal Undead, and other things.

[Yogibear41]

Can a shadow or wraith deliver a coup de grace? In the rules compedium it says it requires a "melee weapon" so I am unsure if a melee touch attack is considered a melee weapon.

In the case that it does somehow count in the case of a shadow since it only does Strength damage and not actual damage how would you handle that? Would you simply just give it a free critical on it's touch attack and be done with it?

One Final question would be that in the case of a sleeping opponent and a creature such as a shadow, would said opponent even be awoken by the shadow's touch? Getting hit by a hammer or axe is easily jarring enough to wake someone up, but is the draining touch of an incorporeal creature enough to rouse a sleeping creature?

[Crake]

Can a shadow or wraith deliver a coup de grace? In the rules compedium it says it requires a "melee weapon" so I am unsure if a melee touch attack is considered a melee weapon.

In the case that it does somehow count in the case of a shadow since it only does Strength damage and not actual damage how would you handle that? Would you simply just give it a free critical on it's touch attack and be done with it?

One Final question would be that in the case of a sleeping opponent and a creature such as a shadow, would said opponent even be awoken by the shadow's touch? Getting hit by a hammer or axe is easily jarring enough to wake someone up, but is the draining touch of an incorporeal creature enough to rouse a sleeping creature?

The rules compendium does add that it needs to be a melee weapon attack, whether or not a touch attack would be considered a weapon or not is up to you. Do note though that wraiths and shadows don't actually deal damage with their attacks, so at best the DC to survive would be 10, with double str/con damage/drain (unless they had rogue levels and managed to sneak attack their target)

[Yogibear41]

Wraiths actually deal 1d4 normal damage in addition to their potential Con Drain, but yes to everything else you said.

[Vaz]

You can deliver touch attacks with a melee weapon (Ghost Touch).

If an unarmed or natural weapon attack can count for it though, I don't see why not.

[Taveena]

You can deliver touch attacks with a melee weapon (Ghost Touch).

If an unarmed or natural weapon attack can count for it though, I don't see why not.

That is not what Ghost Touch does. Ghost Touch allows you to ignore the 50% miss chance for striking ethereal enemies. Delivering touch SPELLS through a melee weapon is possible for the Duskblade, and you can deliver a touch spell through an Unarmed Strike without any issues, but non-spell/spell like abilities are NOT deliverable through a weapon with Ghost Touch alone.

[Vaz]

Got the wrong name of the spell, meant to say Wraithstrike.

[Psyren]

They can however use a Ghost Touch weapon to CdG you if one is nearby, so try not to fall unconscious while fighting one as they can then pick up yours and finish the job.

[Taveena]

Got the wrong name of the spell, meant to say Wraithstrike.

Wraithstrike would turns weapon's attacks into a Touch Attack. It would not allow you to deliver a SPECIFIC touch attack with a weapon.


They can however use a Ghost Touch weapon to CdG you if one is nearby, so try not to fall unconscious while fighting one as they can then pick up yours and finish the job.

Keeping in mind that Coup de Grace is A: a fortitude save not specified to affect objects, and B: crit based, you need some way to give an Undead creature living vulnerabilities. (Which is possible.)

[Psyren]

Keeping in mind that Coup de Grace is A: a fortitude save not specified to affect objects, and B: crit based, you need some way to give an Undead creature living vulnerabilities. (Which is possible.)

I meant they (the undead) can CdG you (a living creature), using your own GT weapon, if you fall unconscious while fighting one.

[The Viscount]

Because wraith's incorporeal touch is a natural weapon and deals normal damage I'd say they can coup de grace with it, though I would only double the 1d4, the con drain is extra damage.
The shadow is a trickier question. If the strength damage is normally doubled on a critical hit, I'd say you can coup de grace. If not, I'd say no, but I'm leaning towards no right now.

I don't have any rules on whether shadow's touch should wake you up, but from a simple gameplay perspective I say they should in fairness to the players. Otherwise any sleep equals death, and this is exactly the sort of thing they might turn around on you.

[Yogibear41]

I don't have any rules on whether shadow's touch should wake you up, but from a simple gameplay perspective I say they should in fairness to the players. Otherwise any sleep equals death, and this is exactly the sort of thing they might turn around on you.

Well to be fair, I as a player want to use it on NPCs. I have a Lich Paladin of Tyranny who's religion is highly undead affiliated, and I am looking for ways to take back my ancestral homeland from the invaders that took it 200 or so years ago. I was going to use the shadows to soften up the defenses of the local fortified villages, before attempting to mount a ground assault. The campaign he is in is temporarily on hold, and it will likely be just me if I ever get to play in it again, so I am trying to think out of the box.

[Taveena]

I meant they (the undead) can CdG you (a living creature), using your own GT weapon, if you fall unconscious while fighting one.

THIS IS TRUE and I totally misread. Sorry.

So don't fall asleep while fighting Ghosts, is what you're getting at.

[The Viscount]

In that case there is something else worth mentioning. Umbral Creature is a template that's basically shadow for nonhumanoids. It's basically the same, with the important difference that it scales Str damage based on size. A Huge Umbral creature deals 3d6 Str, enough to kill most people if it catches them unawares. If it hits a sleeping creature they won't have time to wake up. Alternatively just more than one shadow attacking a creature that is unawares get a surprise round, and a few touches will kill things as well.

For killing many people the Plague Blight from LM is truly frightening, it has a disease that incurs its damage every round.