[3.5/P] Musings on Pounce, melee mobility and possible houserules.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I've been thinking a lot about the usual issues mundane melee characters face compared to their spellcasting brethren, and the thing that always comes first is the issue of mobility and full attacks. That is that they are normally mutually exclusive; of course Pounce is the answer and while it is trivially easy to get in 3.5 (just a single level dip) it isn't as easy to get in PF.

Any way, I've been considering houseruling pounce into the Charge action, with the caveat that you get your full allotment of attacks minus one (minimum one attack of course), for example someone with BAB +11/+6/+1 would be able to pounce, but would only attack at +11/+6. This would also take into account other sources of attacks such as Haste, TWF, Natural attacks etc.

On the other hand I'd also like to buff the actual Pounce ability, a small reward for the players who invest resources into that, but I'm not sure how. Some ideas I've think of are getting an extra attack on standard action attacks, or perhaps a slight attack boost on charges (+1 for every iterative attack maybe?).

So what do you think about it?

[Psyren]

If this works for you and your group, go for it. For some groups, pounce being a little difficult to get to is a-okay, and for some it is emblematic of martials being denied nice things; this is not an issue that it's going to be possible to achieve consensus around.

For what it's worth I think your approach is fine. If you wanted to weaken it a little further, you could have this remove one of the highest iteratives/primary attacks instead of one of the lowest ones, and then have folks who achieve pounce normally get that iterative back. Then you wouldn't need to add anything to reward the players who put in the resources to get pounce normally as they will already have plenty of incentive to do so.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Gutting the first iterative would weaken pouncing charge a lot more, I want to give melee characters something nice so I'l avoid that. Still not sure on how to improve pounce though.

[Psyren]

Maybe if you put in the effort to get pounce by spending resources, you get a small bonus to all your attacks, and natural 1s are not automatic failures/fumbles anymore?

[Spore]

+11/+6/+1

Without Pounce: +9/+4 (-2 and last attack omitted)

With Pounce: +11/+6/+1

Benefits: An extra attack (albeit a poor one), and no "TWFing" penalties. Speaking of which, how would you treat TWFing then?

[Dusk Eclipse]

I think giving penalties on charge attack misses the point of actually making a charge attack, but yeah that is the gist of it.

And a TWF with a BAB of +11/+6/+1 would have an attack routine of +9/+9/+4+/-1 and when pouncing would go +9/+9/+4. I will probably allow two-weapon fighters to make two attacks as a standard action.

[sovin_ndore]

I would be tempted to use the standard -4 non-proficiency penalty... maybe make natural weapons and unarmed strikes 'pounce weapons' that ignore that penalty normally and aquiring the pounce ability would remove the penalty with any weapons. If you then want to continue to apply the standard +2 to Hit/-2 AC, that would be a net -2 to each for non-proficient chargers.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Imposing a penalty to attacks while pouncing defeats the purpose of allowing people to pounce for free. I want to make it easier for melee characters.

[Psyren]

Imposing a penalty to attacks while pouncing defeats the purpose of allowing people to pounce for free. I want to make it easier for melee characters.

I think they're talking about imposing a penalty to your "free-pounce" which obtaining pounce normally would then remove.

Or you could impose no penalty and then grant a bonus to the ones who obtain it normally like you were originally planning - which is more or less functionally identical.

[Ferronach]

I have always thought that pounce should incorporate something like a warforged's slam attack. The damage should vary depending on character weight and/or armour type seeing as physics tells us that more weight at the same speed will convey a more forceful impact :)

Something along the lines of:

No armour: 1D4 slam on impact, chance to hurt the attacker (because hitting something hard without protection hurts)
Light: 1D6 slam on impact
Medium: 1D8 slam on impact
Heavy (and higher - looking at you mountain plate..): 1D10 slam and chance to inflit some sort of stun/daze effect


Obviously this would scale with size and armopur with the "spiked" property would apply that damage as well in addition to spiked shields/gauntlets and a warforged juggernaut's spikes.
*note: the categories would have to be modified for a Warforged to reflect the body plating type and the fact that they already have a slam attack...

[Psyren]

seeing as physics tells us


seeing as physics


physics

No, you fool!

*Watches in horror as dice burst into flames*

[Dusk Eclipse]

I have always thought that pounce should incorporate something like a warforged's slam attack. The damage should vary depending on character weight and/or armour type seeing as physics tells us that more weight at the same speed will convey a more forceful impact :)

Something along the lines of:

No armour: 1D4 slam on impact, chance to hurt the attacker (because hitting something hard without protection hurts)
Light: 1D6 slam on impact
Medium: 1D8 slam on impact
Heavy (and higher - looking at you mountain plate..): 1D10 slam and chance to inflit some sort of stun/daze effect


Obviously this would scale with size and armopur with the "spiked" property would apply that damage as well in addition to spiked shields/gauntlets and a warforged juggernaut's spikes.
*note: the categories would have to be modified for a Warforged to reflect the body plating type and the fact that they already have a slam attack...

An interesting idea, though not quite what I'm looking for, thanks for sharing though.



No, you fool!

*Watches in horror as dice burst into flames*

Wait, Psyren are your dies actually catgirls? Cause that is kind of awesome :smalltongue:

[squab]

At the table I play at, the DM ruled that full attacks are standard actions and lets people stick an attack somewhere in their move. The advantages of pounce become "charge then full attack" as opposed to "move then full attack."

[KingSmitty]

just make pounce a feat so you don't have to dip barbarian.

[Extra Anchovies]

You could just let characters move up to their speed as part of a full attack, distributing the attacks among the movement however they want to. Almost every way to get movement and a full attack in the same turn is optional; the only thing that would need a compensation buff would be the Medium's Champion spirit, because their greater power would be completely redundant and you can't get the other Champion abilities without picking up that one.

[Calimehter]

just make pounce a feat so you don't have to dip barbarian.

While this a nice option for some builds, a lot of melee types would rather dip Barbarian than spend a feat.

[Ferronach]

No, you fool!

*Watches in horror as dice burst into flames*

Hahaha, *ahem* Muahaha! Physics does sort of apply to those poor hand to hand combatants who cannot wake up every morning and tell physics to screw off :P


An interesting idea, though not quite what I'm looking for, thanks for sharing though.

All good, just a thought :)

[daremetoidareyo]

Why not just make pounce into a feat. Give it a +6 bab requirement except for fighters, monks, and barbarians: who can take it whenever they want. If you're giving out nice things, give out nice things. No more unbalancing than grease or invisibility.

Edit: Ninja'ed

[KingSmitty]

While this a nice option for some builds, a lot of melee types would rather dip Barbarian than spend a feat.

then let them. making it a feat doesn't mean the ACF doesn't exist.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You could allow a swift action activation pounce, if you're worried about action economy stuff (like using certain (quickened) spells or ToB/PoW boosts). Or even allow a partial charge as a move action, so you could partial charge (hit once), then use a ToB/PoW strike or something.

[Snowbluff]

Maybe full attack should have less penalty for iterative attacks, and everyone have pounce, which works at 0/-5/-10/-15 like how it does now?



Wait, Psyren are your dies actually catgirls? Cause that is kind of awesome :smalltongue:
It's not if you like catgirls. ;^;

Mine are carved out of human vertebrae, and they started cursing and spewing smog.

[Extra Anchovies]

Maybe full attack should have less penalty for iterative attacks, and everyone have pounce, which works at 0/-5/-10/-15 like how it does now?

Interesting idea. Maybe -3 per iterative, so a 20th-level Barbarian has a BAB of +20/17/14/11/8/5/2, or +20/15/10/5 on a charge?


It's not if you like catgirls. ;^;

Mine are carved out of human vertebrae, and they started cursing and spewing smog.

Those sound like some weird catgirls :smalltongue:

[Ferronach]

Interesting idea. Maybe -3 per iterative, so a 20th-level Barbarian has a BAB of +20/17/14/11/8/5/2, or +20/15/10/5 on a charge?

That actually sounds way easier than my idea and would probably be more balanced too!

On a side note: One of my many sets of dice are formed from the crystallised tears of laughter from maidens who I have made laugh at my expense. They just bounce around until they land on a 1 when I say foolish things...

[Dusk Eclipse]

Ok after some thinking of my part I decided to with my first idea (everyone can pounce, but they substract 1 attack from their routine, minimum one) and with actual pounce (and similar abilities) they get a scaling attack bonus (+1 for every 5 BAB points). I'll probably make a campaign log once the game start and I'll be sure to let you know how it goes.

On another note, I'm going through the Stamina system and I'm liking what I've seen so far, so I'm thinking of implementing it, I don't think it will have make things too complicated for my newer players as it is quite similar to the Effort points in A:BF; you have a pool of EP equal to your Con stat, you can spend 1 to get a +15 on any physical check (it is a d100 btw) you normally can't use more than one per round per check, but there are abilities to bypass that). I will probably give Combat Stamina as a bonus feat once the character gets +5 BAB, with the provision that they can take it earlier and once they reach that BAB they can retrain it for another [Combat] feat.

[DrMartin]

as a side note, along the lines of giving nice things to fighter-types, in my game while TWF-ing it's allowed to make one attack per weapon as a standard action. Makes the style a little less terrible and does not break anything valuable (Two-handed still rocks the house anyway)

[Curmudgeon]

I don't believe you've thought this through adequately. I think the most likely outcome of this house rule is that most non-spellcasting characters will start to look like they're interchangeable. Most everyone is going to use melee combat rather than ranged attacks, and most of the melee attacks will be Charges. And because Leap Attack grants improved damage when you Charge with Power Attack, you're going to get a lot of characters with those feats. And because Power Attack and Leap Attack give you more damage with two-handed weapons, you're going to see most everybody adapting to that arithmetic. So a Rogue will wait until somebody Pounces to attack an enemy, then they'll Pounce to attack from a flanking position, bashing two-handed with a quarterstaff.

Because you'll be shepherding your PCs to pick these options, you'll also be able to shut them all down easily. Just have enemies attack at range with difficult terrain, and their slight variations on one trick will have them literally stuck in the mud.


If you're going to skew the game toward one "optimal" fighting style, there will be consequences. If you want to avoid this scenario (any color you want as long as it's black), you need to come up with equal or superior improvements for ranged combat, stealthy combat, terrain mastery, and other options.

[Troacctid]

This looks like a job for my homebrew feat!

Troacctid's Swiftness
Why would you want to stand still for the whole fight? You think that's dumb. You've read the 5th Edition Player's Handbook and you have some better ideas.

Prerequisites
Base attack bonus +6, must be proficient with one or more martial weapons

Benefit
You can make a full attack as a standard action. You can also make a full attack with melee weapons while mounted, even if your mount moves more than 5 feet.

Normal
Making a full attack requires a full round action, and you cannot make more than one melee attack while mounted if your mount moves more than 5 feet.

Special
This feat can be used in conjunction with a Spring Attack, Flyby Attack, or Swim-By Attack, allowing you to make each of your attacks at any point during your movement. (This replaces the single attack made in a Spring Attack, although you may still avoid attacks of opportunity from one target as normal, and Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz still function normally if you have them.)

At 6th level, a monk may select Troacctid's Swiftness as her bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites.

A fighter may select Troacctid's Swiftness as one of his fighter bonus feats. A scout may select Troacctid's Swiftness as one of her scout bonus feats. A ranger using the Champion of the Wild variant may select Troacctid's Swiftness as one of his Champion of the Wild bonus feats.

I agree that tying it to charges is a bad idea. I think it makes a lot more sense to just get full attacks as a standard action--or at the very least, the extra attacks granted by Two-Weapon Fighting, Flurry of Blows, Haste, etc. There's no good reason to restrict those to a full attack.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I don't believe you've thought this through adequately. I think the most likely outcome of this house rule is that most non-spellcasting characters will start to look like they're interchangeable. Most everyone is going to use melee combat rather than ranged attacks, and most of the melee attacks will be Charges. And because Leap Attack grants improved damage when you Charge with Power Attack, you're going to get a lot of characters with those feats. And because Power Attack and Leap Attack give you more damage with two-handed weapons, you're going to see most everybody adapting to that arithmetic. So a Rogue will wait until somebody Pounces to attack an enemy, then they'll Pounce to attack from a flanking position, bashing two-handed with a quarterstaff.

Because you'll be shepherding your PCs to pick these options, you'll also be able to shut them all down easily. Just have enemies attack at range with difficult terrain, and their slight variations on one trick will have them literally stuck in the mud.


If you're going to skew the game toward one "optimal" fighting style, there will be consequences. If you want to avoid this scenario (any color you want as long as it's black), you need to come up with equal or superior improvements for ranged combat, stealthy combat, terrain mastery, and other options.

I agree that there are some things that I probably missed when I thought of this houserule, that is one of the reasons I decided to post so people can point out things that I missed. Anyway in this particular case I'm not really concerned about Leap Attack and other PA boosters, as I will be running pure Pathfinder and as far as I know there aren't many, if at all, boosters. (Yes, the thread title is tagged as 3.5/P, but that was so people who are playing either of them feel free to jump in).

As you mentioned charges are relatively easy to shut down, players should know that and if they are planning on charging a lot they should invest in ways to overcome said deficiencies or another trick, this is a good thing. I want players to feel rewarded if they invest resources in being good at what they do. Giving "pounce" for free may sound counter-intuitive to this, but I think that is simply giving some base-line competitiveness.

Ranged combat has one of the best DPR in PF (once again I'm running PF) , sure it takes a lot of feats to make it work, but I don't think it needs a buff (maybe trimming down the feat requirements, I'm not completely sure), if you have any suggestions on how to improve Stealthy combat I'd be thrilled to hear them. I'm not sure what you mean by terrain mastery.


This looks like a job for my homebrew feat!

Troacctid's Swiftness
Why would you want to stand still for the whole fight? You think that's dumb. You've read the 5th Edition Player's Handbook and you have some better ideas.

Prerequisites
Base attack bonus +6, must be proficient with one or more martial weapons

Benefit
You can make a full attack as a standard action. You can also make a full attack with melee weapons while mounted, even if your mount moves more than 5 feet.

Normal
Making a full attack requires a full round action, and you cannot make more than one melee attack while mounted if your mount moves more than 5 feet.

Special
This feat can be used in conjunction with a Spring Attack, Flyby Attack, or Swim-By Attack, allowing you to make each of your attacks at any point during your movement. (This replaces the single attack made in a Spring Attack, although you may still avoid attacks of opportunity from one target as normal, and Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz still function normally if you have them.)

At 6th level, a monk may select Troacctid's Swiftness as her bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites.

A fighter may select Troacctid's Swiftness as one of his fighter bonus feats. A scout may select Troacctid's Swiftness as one of her scout bonus feats. A ranger using the Champion of the Wild variant may select Troacctid's Swiftness as one of his Champion of the Wild bonus feats.

I agree that tying it to charges is a bad idea. I think it makes a lot more sense to just get full attacks as a standard action--or at the very least, the extra attacks granted by Two-Weapon Fighting, Flurry of Blows, Haste, etc. There's no good reason to restrict those to a full attack.


I don't like the idea of tying it to feats as it then becomes a feat tax, but that is just me.