D&D Advanced Warfare! (EnderDwarf may not read)

[ImSAMazing]

Allright Playground,

I need your help once again! So, my character has some IC reasons to take over the village of Greenest(for information, see the spoiler below). He has the time, and he will do it on his own. I have made up a plan, please give feedback on it, tips, idea's, and stories if you have ever taken over a city!


Greenest is located in the middle of the Greenfields, in the Forgotten Realms. If you search "Sword Coast map" you'll find it in Google Images. It's not small, but not that big. The leader is called Governor Nighthill, and that's about it. 3/4 months ago it got raided by a big group of kobolds.



I said I would do it alone, but I lied a bit. I got the help of an experienced Fighter and an experienced Wizard(They are old PCs, currently NPCs, but they will help me. I don't know the exact level, but they are both around lvl 10/11). The fighter is a Battlemaster dex-based Fighter and the Wizard a gnome specialized in Illusion/Enchantment.
I am playing a lvl 17 Wizard with many spells, but my high level spells are: Prismatic Wall, Shapechange, Clone, Demiplane, Control Monster, Teleport, Reverse Gravity and Disintegrate. I got a bunch more, ask if you want to know the rest. I am using my lvl 7 & 8 slot for the fact that I need to cast Teleport 2 times(or 1 time if I play it smart with Shapechange).



Allright this is what I am going to do:
1. I try to get to arrange a meeting with the mayor, Governor Nighthill. It might be hard, because it will be nighttime, but this is Plan A.
2. When I have arranged a meeting(I'll say it is important), I talk to him that something bad is going to happen, and when he askes: "What is going to happen?" I'll answer with Shapechanging into an Adult Red Shadow Dragon, killing the Mayor and his bodyguards in the surprise round and giving the signal that the attack begins. Ill let my companions take out the leader of the local army, and then I fly to the soldiers and kill them from the air.
3. Ill shadow breath every guard, and thats my plan :D



1. When I have failed to arrange a meeting, Ill surprise attack the guards with a Shapechange into Adult Red Shadow Dragon form.
2. Me and my companions Hack 'n Slash thru all the Guards.
3. We kill the Mayor and take the city over. Thats plan B :D

[HoarsHalberd]

Have you ever seen an adult red shadow dragon?

EDIT: Actually this won't work. Adult red shadow dragons would be at least CR 18-19.

[KorvinStarmast]

Allright Playground, If you are considering the use of Shape Change, the CR of what you shape change into can't be higher than your level.
The good news is that lvl 17 Wizard could SC into an adult red dragon:

(Ref = Basic Rules DM guide monster information)
Adult Red Dragon
Huge
Chaotic evil
Armor Class 19 (natural armor)
Hit Points 256 (19d12 + 133)
Speed 40 ft., climb 40 ft., fly 80 ft.
Challenge 17
Best wishes on flying about and being awesome, if you choose to pursue that idea ...

[ImSAMazing]

Adult Blue Shadow Dragon then. But I think my DM will allow a Adult Red Shadow Dragon at lvl 17. So lets say I can transform into a Adult Red Shadow Dragon, any feedback on my Battleplans?

[JoeJ]

After you kill the mayor, what's your plan for actually taking control of the town? If the townspeople kill you or drive you off, all your planning will have been for nothing. If they flee, or if they fight you and lose, you'll be left with just a bunch of empty buildings.

[ImSAMazing]

After you kill the mayor, what's your plan for actually taking control of the town? If the townspeople kill you or drive you off, all your planning will have been for nothing. If they flee, or if they fight you and lose, you'll be left with just a bunch of empty buildings.

I think, if I use my Frightful Presence, most villagers won't run. The guards will I shadowbreath for Shadows, so they can be the new "guards". The Wizard(the companion, not me) will just transform into the mayor and tell everyone it's safe. Any other idea's for that, because it isn't the part I have thought about the most :smallbiggrin:

[AvatarVecna]

This is like asking for thoughts on a plan to nuke the city from orbit: there's not really any need for tactical thought at this point unless the city in question can either force the nuke to miss, or ignore the effects of the nuke. Putting it back in game terms, the default here is that the mage-turned-dragon is going to run amok across the city until they either flatten/burn/whatever everything or they get bored...unless a group of adventurer's stop them. Now, the Forgotten Realms is a bit infamous for having higher-level, retired adventurers making up a not-insignificant portion of the population, and it's likely that, in a city this large, there's at least one or two casters on your level (or possibly even higher). The presence of adventurers who are capable take you down, and if/how they go about doing it, is the only potential snag in this plan. If the adventurers don't get involved, there's no problem; if they do, there might be a problem.

What you need to do, before just running in and dragon-ing up, is find out which people in town, if any, are capable of and willing to fight such a dragon; if you find any such people, you need to either make them less capable or less willing to fight such a dragon.

[AvatarVecna]

I think, if I use my Frightful Presence, most villagers won't run.

This is literally the opposite of what Frightful Presence does.

[ImSAMazing]

This is literally the opposite of what Frightful Presence does.

Looking at it, you are totally right xD.

[ImSAMazing]

This is like asking for thoughts on a plan to nuke the city from orbit: there's not really any need for tactical thought at this point unless the city in question can either force the nuke to miss, or ignore the effects of the nuke. Putting it back in game terms, the default here is that the mage-turned-dragon is going to run amok across the city until they either flatten/burn/whatever everything or they get bored...unless a group of adventurer's stop them. Now, the Forgotten Realms is a bit infamous for having higher-level, retired adventurers making up a not-insignificant portion of the population, and it's likely that, in a city this large, there's at least one or two casters on your level (or possibly even higher). The presence of adventurers who are capable take you down, and if/how they go about doing it, is the only potential snag in this plan. If the adventurers don't get involved, there's no problem; if they do, there might be a problem.

What you need to do, before just running in and dragon-ing up, is find out which people in town, if any, are capable of and willing to fight such a dragon; if you find any such people, you need to either make them less capable or less willing to fight such a dragon.
Greenest isn't that big of a town in our campaign, I mean, a group of 80 kobolds + like 30 cultists and 2 dedicated warriors(maybe cr 6 both) easily raided the town. I don't think there are that strong adventurers and if there were, they are or dead or not that strong/scared/traumatised.

[AvatarVecna]

Then I don't see what the problem is. This is like going to a daycare center and beating up the toddlers, just because the workers all got killed in gang violence earlier today and haven't been replaced yet. Sure, you can take their lunch money or snacks or whatever best fits this dark analogy, but it's not because you're a tactical genius, it's because you're a grown person beating up toddlers.

EDIT: And even the, their parents (the local government) will take them to safety (out of the city) and call the cops (super-high level adventurers) in to deal with you, and then you're hosed. Because letting some random ******* (mage-turned-dragon) randomly punch toddlers (killing civilians) while declaring themselves king of the daycare center (city) isn't something you just let happen.

[ImSAMazing]

Then I don't see what the problem is. This is like going to a daycare center and beating up the toddlers, just because the workers all got killed in gang violence earlier today and haven't been replaced yet. Sure, you can take their lunch money or snacks or whatever best fits this dark analogy, but it's not because you're a tactical genius, it's because you're a grown person beating up toddlers.

It's sort of revenge/showing what I can to the companions who are going to help me.

EDIT: And ofcourse, there will be some guards but they wont be a problem. It's just that I need some help what I do after the takeover.

EDIT2: If I play it good there isn't going to be anyone who is calling for help.

[AvatarVecna]

It's sort of revenge/showing what I can to the companions who are going to help me.

Whatever your reasoning is, sure, fine, play the game however you want to. But I'm not seeing any need for advice here; there's nobody capable of stopping you nearby, or even capable of moderately inconveniencing you. Have fun with it, I suppose.

[ImSAMazing]

Whatever your reasoning is, sure, fine, play the game however you want to. But I'm not seeing any need for advice here; there's nobody capable of stopping you nearby, or even capable of moderately inconveniencing you. Have fun with it, I suppose.

The problem is, there might be some people who can stop me. Thanks for the advice on checking it out first, because it may be like you say.It's just that I am not sure,

ALSO: Please, nobody think that I am a bad person in D&D or in RL, I have enough IC reasons to do this. Please believe me on my word...

[AvatarVecna]

The problem is, there might be some people who can stop me. Thanks for the advice on checking it out first, because it may be like you say.It's just that I am not sure,

ALSO: Please, nobody think that I am a bad person in D&D or in RL, I have enough IC reasons to do this. Please believe me on my word...

Your IRL alignment doesn't really relate to this, but I can't help but be a bit curious as to what this town--this whole town--has done to give you the impression that attacking the whole town as a nigh-unkillable dragon is morally justified.

[ImSAMazing]

Your IRL alignment doesn't really relate to this, but I can't help but be a bit curious as to what this town--this whole town--has done to give you the impression that attacking the whole town as a nigh-unkillable dragon is morally justified.

Well, you are sort of right, but I wont harm them. I just want to well, overthrow the mayor. He hasn't been nice to me, and my character wants to test out how strong he is. I will only harm those who haven't been nice to me / my friends. Hmm, maybe attacking the town is a bit harsh. Maybe, hmm, thinking about it...

[AvatarVecna]

*Teleports into the mayor's office*

*Disintegrate him in the Surprise Round*

*Teleports back out*

He should be dead at this point, unless he's either more competent than I've been expecting, or much luckier. Tossing a second save-or-die into the mix should take care of that pesky luck/skill, though, and then you can leave.

Or hey, you could cast Dominate Monster on him and instruct him to start stabbing random citizens and generally act psychotic until he gets arrested. Or you could use Shapechange/Alter Self/Disguise Self to go out and do stuff like that yourself (disguised as him) to make his reputation worth less than dirt. There's a lot of ways to go about destroying/killing/humiliating this mayor than "dragon rampage".

[ImSAMazing]

*Teleports into the mayor's office*

*Disintegrate him in the Surprise Round*

*Teleports back out*

He should be dead at this point, unless he's either more competent than I've been expecting, or much luckier. Tossing a second save-or-die into the mix should take care of that pesky luck/skill, though, and then you can leave.

Or hey, you could cast Dominate Monster on him and instruct him to start stabbing random citizens and generally act psychotic until he gets arrested. Or you could use Shapechange/Alter Self/Disguise Self to go out and do stuff like that yourself (disguised as him) to make his reputation worth less than dirt. There's a lot of ways to go about destroying/killing/humiliating this mayor than "dragon rampage".

True. Think I will do this.

[Sigreid]

Are you sure it wouldn't be easier just to use your likely vast riches to take over the town through economic warfare? What I mean is get the important towns folk beholden to you through loans and investments and basically just own the place?

[Louro]

Why turning into a dragon when you have goblins?

Disguise yourself (no magic required) as a normal guy (beggar, writting a book about cities on the region...) and get to know how the city works. Talk to the people, ask about their problems, ask about the governor, about those goblin raids, the city problems, how the guard behave, food source, trade, wealth, rats, water supply, most important persons, business, relations with other cities, weather issues, garbage control, whore policy, the thieves guild, elven plague control, beer quality, relevant religions, and many other things.

When the next goblin horde (bigger in numbers and with better gear) arrives to raid the city again, the mysterious beggar who seems to be concerned about the city will happen to be the city savior. Goblin leader will be (conveniently) captured to find out his tribe has been paid by the leader to kill his political opponent using the raid as a smoke screen. That goblin will even have the governor's ring/medallion.

Enjoy how people kill the governor.

All you need is modify memory to make the governor thinks he lost his medallion/ring after you steal it. Hire the goblins disguised as the governor, give them a reasonable amount of gold and the ring as a binder that you will pay the rest after they complete the mission.

[Louro]

Damn, that's quite an effort.
Aren't you lv 17?

Grab the governor and teleport with him to the town's major plaza/center square during a major event/festival.
Turn into a dragon and burn him down.
Then say: I AM HE NEW LEADER OF THE CITY. DOES ANYONE DISAGREE?
...
GOOD!
NOW KEEP THE FESTIVAL GOING.
...
I SAID I WANT THE FESTIVAL TO CONTINUE. PLAY THE MUSIC, DANCE AND LAUGH. SAD FACES ARE NOT ALLOWED ANYMORE. LET'S ALL BE HAPPY.

Good news: you have accomplished you mission.
Bad news: your character has gone mad so you don't control it anymore. Roll a new one.


Later on.
Player: OK, here is my new ranger.
DM: Nice, in addition to the starting equipment you also have the half mask that enforces you to smile. The mask that everyone wears in the city when they go outside their home.

[Coidzor]

The best thing to do is to depose the current mayor, assassinate them, or replace them with a doppelganger that you've secured the loyalty of or made, isn't it?

Causing a ruckus is just going to get an Elminster up your butt or catching the Harp or something.

Plus, you don't just want to have undead monsters as your guards, especially when they're made from the metaphysical essence of the former town guard which is going to make their surviving families quite put off.

If you are going to attack the town, then you want some catspaws to do it with and you want a ready source of replacement for the previous powerbase for when you get rid of the catspaws and set up your own new government after liberating the township.

Or just suborn a bunch of orcs and goblinoids and barbarians and take over the joint the old fashioned way, using your magic to blunt initial resistance and discourage the town from trying any funny business to go all Le Resistance on you.

[Inevitability]

At this point, your main concern is that some priest gets off a sending and you have to face a small adventurer-led army the next day. As long as no one knows something is wrong, nothing will happen to you.

I'd first spend some time on investigating the town and learning who knows powerful enough magic to contact other cities. Then make sure many of those people die in 'accidents'. Once the town becomes too suspicious, surprise attack the few remaining casters.

[Malifice]

What happens afterwards when the local lord's armies backed by a powerful mage of their own come and get you?

Can people routinely get away with murder and killing in this area without ramifications?

I mean, didnt the Cult of the Dragon just try attacking this very town with both an army AND its own blue dragon just 3-4 months ago - and not only didnt they get stopped, but they got attacked by adventurers from several powerful factions (harpers, lords alliance, tormites, zhents etc), had their entire plans thwarted, and most of their top members systematically murdered and artifacts all stolen, and even the god they worship had its teeth kicked in?

How on earth are you going to get away with it if Tiamat, the cult of the dragon, an army of dragons and kobolods and cultists etc didnt?

I would expect high level adventurers (at the least) to by hired to come in and kick your ass. Semmemon, Tsass Tham and Manshoon dont go around doing **** like this. Probably for a reason.

[AvatarVecna]

You can get away with this **** as a 17th level wizard in Eberron, because the number of characters in the world above 10th level don't require more than fingers and toes to count; powerful people are extremely rare, making magic items more useful and relatively powerful. In the Forgotten Realms, there's a retired archmage living in every large city, every religion's high priest has at least 7th level spells (and probably 9ths), and every captain of the guard is a Fighter 20 with an eyepatch (it feels that way sometimes, anyway).

This "dragon taking over town" thing? That's lasting just a few days, unless you really go all out on using your mastery of magic to carve out your own tiny nation.

EDIT: And even that was more true in 3.5 than it is in 5e; high-level mages are powerful in this edition, but they can still be taken out by enough pointy-stick-wielding mammals working together, not to mention other mages. At least in 3.5 a mage could run roughshod over the mundanes, but now you've got to worry about them while you're having a magic duel to keep control of your nation.

[Malifice]

You can get away with this **** as a 17th level wizard in Eberron, because the number of characters in the world above 10th level don't require more than fingers and toes to count; powerful people are extremely rare, making magic items more useful and relatively powerful. In the Forgotten Realms, there's a retired archmage living in every large city, every religion's high priest has at least 7th level spells (and probably 9ths), and every captain of the guard is a Fighter 20 with an eyepatch (it feels that way sometimes, anyway).

This "dragon taking over town" thing? That's lasting just a few days, unless you really go all out on using your mastery of magic to carve out your own tiny nation.

EDIT: And even that was more true in 3.5 than it is in 5e; high-level mages are powerful in this edition, but they can still be taken out by enough pointy-stick-wielding mammals working together, not to mention other mages. At least in 3.5 a mage could run roughshod over the mundanes, but now you've got to worry about them while you're having a magic duel to keep control of your nation.

Polymorph into dragon and murder the mayor.. or just... run for election as the new mayor?

I'm sure with the magical resources at his disposal, he can feed and protect the town (and repair the houses etc) just fine. Should win a popular vote in a landslide.

If needed (and youre more on the N side of alignments) rig the vote with magic, magically modified memories and dominate illusions to discredit the mayor, or just use conjured proxies (not pixies - but they'll do nicely).

How is it that option 1 (MURDER THE TOWN) even gets considered by anyone short of a total psychopath with an intelligence and wisdom of 6-8 range? A genius wizard with an Int of 20 and 9th level spells has all the time in the world - can create his own demiplane, immortal servants, and can wish any matter or enegy into existence with a click of his fingers. He can contact the very gods tehselvves, scry they planes etc etc

Why do the one thing that would most likely get him murdered in return?

[ImSAMazing]

At this point, your main concern is that some priest gets off a sending and you have to face a small adventurer-led army the next day. As long as no one knows something is wrong, nothing will happen to you.

I'd first spend some time on investigating the town and learning who knows powerful enough magic to contact other cities. Then make sure many of those people die in 'accidents'. Once the town becomes too suspicious, surprise attack the few remaining casters.

Well, you can just kill everyone, take their stuff, destroy most of the houses and get out of there, but yes, you can't just take over a city without stopping the casters first.

[ImSAMazing]

What happens afterwards when the local lord's armies backed by a powerful mage of their own come and get you?

Can people routinely get away with murder and killing in this area without ramifications?

I mean, didnt the Cult of the Dragon just try attacking this very town with both an army AND its own blue dragon just 3-4 months ago - and not only didnt they get stopped, but they got attacked by adventurers from several powerful factions (harpers, lords alliance, tormites, zhents etc), had their entire plans thwarted, and most of their top members systematically murdered and artifacts all stolen, and even the god they worship had its teeth kicked in?

How on earth are you going to get away with it if Tiamat, the cult of the dragon, an army of dragons and kobolods and cultists etc didnt?

I would expect high level adventurers (at the least) to by hired to come in and kick your ass. Semmemon, Tsass Tham and Manshoon dont go around doing **** like this. Probably for a reason.

The Cult of the Dragon didn't fail trying to loot Greenest, they succeeded. Their "prisoner" only got to escape later. At least in our story, the Cult of the Dragon looted the whole town, putting most houses on fire causing the death of at least a 100 citizens.

[Malifice]

The Cult of the Dragon didn't fail trying to loot Greenest, they succeeded. Their "prisoner" only got to escape later. At least in our story, the Cult of the Dragon looted the whole town, putting most houses on fire causing the death of at least a 100 citizens.

And what happened to the people behind the plot afterwards?

A bunch of adventurers representing half a dozen different powerful factions hunted them down and killed them all?

Out of curiosity, your character is obviously Chaotic Evil?

[Louro]

I guess it all depends on the wizard motivations.
If he is really willing to rule that city then he should follow a plan along the lines I have explained a few posts away.
If he just seeks revenge against the governor... either dominate him, kill him straight away, maybe curses, illness, nightmares...
The dragon burning the city and conquering it by force... it sounds a bit evil to me.

[Ranting Fool]

I'm finding this thread so very funny as I'm just about to start a bit of prep work for my campaign where one of my players wants to take over the town of Greenrest... by convincing the people that he will protect them, not tax them for a year, build a town wall and both train and equip a garrison (Paid for out of his pocket) so that the town is never again pillaged by those pesky kobolds. Oh and vowing to hunt them down and return all the loot. Rather then just going on some power mad killing spree because NPC's were rude/mean to him :smallbiggrin:

[ImSAMazing]

And what happened to the people behind the plot afterwards?

A bunch of adventurers representing half a dozen different powerful factions hunted them down and killed them all?

Out of curiosity, your character is obviously Chaotic Evil?
Well, in our story, we didn't continue with Rise of Tiamat after HOTDQ, we were just to de-motivated to do. Our DM waved his own story around it, and we dont know what was in the chest of Rezmir, but it probably wasn't the Black Dragon Mask. We did stop the Cult of The Dragon, so no Tiamat or something.
My Character is LE/NE, his target? Change all the citizens into Shadows under his permanent command as a private big army full of killing machines.


I guess it all depends on the wizard motivations.
If he is really willing to rule that city then he should follow a plan along the lines I have explained a few posts away.
If he just seeks revenge against the governor... either dominate him, kill him straight away, maybe curses, illness, nightmares...
The dragon burning the city and conquering it by force... it sounds a bit evil to me.
It is evil indeed.

[Ranting Fool]

The dragon burning the city and conquering it by force... it sounds a bit evil to me.

That has been the basis of many a good D&D adventure in the past.... a bunch of strangers meet in a tavern... :smalltongue:

[ImSAMazing]

I'm finding this thread so very funny as I'm just about to start a bit of prep work for my campaign where one of my players wants to take over the town of Greenrest... by convincing the people that he will protect them, not tax them for a year, build a town wall and both train and equip a garrison (Paid for out of his pocket) so that the town is never again pillaged by those pesky kobolds. Oh and vowing to hunt them down and return all the loot. Rather then just going on some power mad killing spree because NPC's were rude/mean to him :smallbiggrin:

Cool, also I really really like the avatar. Can I sig the following:

I'm finding this thread so very funny

[ImSAMazing]

That has been the basis of many a good D&D adventure in the past.... a bunch of strangers meet in a tavern... :smalltongue:

And get killed by a Shadow Dragon ;):smallcool:

[Malifice]

My Character is LE/NE, his target? Change all the citizens into Shadows under his permanent command as a private big army full of killing machines.

So he's suddenly gone and turned into a completely psychotic mass murderer?

As long as you dont complain when a bunch of LG NPC's come along to take you down afterwards. Paladins and that sort of thing look down on that stuff.

Only mentioning it, as thats whats going to happen. You'll become the BBEG. Expect high level NPC adventurers (the deadliest threat in the game) to come after you.

[ImSAMazing]

So he's suddenly gone and turned into a completely psychotic mass murderer?

As long as you dont complain when a bunch of LG NPC's come along to take you down afterwards. Paladins and that sort of thing look down on that stuff.

Only mentioning it, as thats whats going to happen. You'll become the BBEG. Expect high level NPC adventurers (the deadliest threat in the game) to come after you.

How will they know it's me? Ill wear a mask, my companions will to, and most of the time I am going to be a Shadow Dragon.

[Ranting Fool]

Cool, also I really really like the avatar. Can I sig the following:

If you want to :smallcool:

[Ranting Fool]

How will they know it's me? Ill wear a mask, my companions will to, and most of the time I am going to be a Shadow Dragon.

Visions from their God's (Also a very common quest starter), any witness, speaking to the dead, high level divination, people overhearing your evil laughter in the pub while you brag about your vile plans, people tracking down any of your allies, your allies betraying you because they want you out of the way, dumb luck, using magic to track down any items that you may loot, the DM designing an encounter with NPC Good guys... I'm sure I could think of more

[ImSAMazing]

Visions from their God's (Also a very common quest starter), any witness, speaking to the dead, high level divination, people overhearing your evil laughter in the pub while you brag about your vile plans, people tracking down any of your allies, your allies betraying you because they want you out of the way, dumb luck, using magic to track down any items that you may loot, the DM designing an encounter with NPC Good guys... I'm sure I could think of more

I wont tell about it to anyone. Scrying may work, thinking about that one. Thanks for the feedback!

[Ranting Fool]

I wont tell about it to anyone. Scrying may work, thinking about that one. Thanks for the feedback!

Just think of all the ways the Hero normally finds out about things. Also you should probably work on your Evil Laugh (TM) for Roleplay reasons.

[Malifice]

How will they know it's me? Ill wear a mask, my companions will to, and most of the time I am going to be a Shadow Dragon.

They're 17th level (like you). They have both a Wizard (wish) Cleric (divine intervention etc), Rogue (skill check of 30+) on staff to find out.

[ImSAMazing]

Just think of all the ways the Hero normally finds out about things. Also you should probably work on your Evil Laugh (TM) for Roleplay reasons.

True. Will do

[Louro]

Maybe the King's high priest has already foresee that something awfully evil is about to happen in one of his cities, so he might have sent someone to investigate it already.

You know, kings don't like when they don't receive their taxes anymore.

[KorvinStarmast]

You know, kings don't like when they don't receive their taxes anymore. So I hear.

How does a DM deal with the standard Murder Hobo (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/q/8002/22566), eh?

[Malifice]

So I hear.

How does a DM deal with the standard Murder Hobo (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/q/8002/22566), eh?

Great article.

I detest 'psychopath evil' more than I do 'lawful stupid'.

The kind of lack of empathy one needs to murder a bunch of innocent people and then animate them as undead slaves is beyond holocaust level of sociopathy. Real 'evil' people arent like that. Think your Walter Whites and Tony Soprano (also a sociopath) dont just spontaneosly murder hundreds of people to 'take over a town'. If the potential repurcussions didnt stop them at the very least, then it's just not what they do. They have motivations for thier evil. I suppose 'destroy the town and enslave everyone' has it's place in high fantasy literature, but it's more often than not lazy characterisation and poor roleplaying.

Unless the character in question has inentionally portrayed themselves as an utter psychopath with no regard for the ramifications of their actions and a total lack of empathy (the bad guy from no country for old men) then I'd raise an eyebrow at the least.

There would also be in game ramifications. Word would reach the local 'forces of good' and they would do something. Someting involving a bigger fish.

[KorvinStarmast]

Great article.

I detest 'psychopath evil' more than I do 'lawful stupid'.
Mostly feel that same way.

I've been reading some old Dragon Magazine articles about evil PC's, early 1980's vintage. It appears that this issue goes down to "why do you want to fantasize about being evil?"

Of interest would be to investigate the thoughts of actors who play bad guys on screen, TV, and in plays.

As to No Country for Old Men ... an interesting if disturbing movie, from an author who is over hyped.

[Coidzor]

My Character is LE/NE, his target? Change all the citizens into Shadows under his permanent command as a private big army full of killing machines.

Yes, and? What's the plan for this huge army of shadows?

And why didn't you say why you wanted to kill the entire town in the first place?

[Malifice]

Mostly feel that same way.

I've been reading some old Dragon Magazine articles about evil PC's, early 1980's vintage. It appears that this issue goes down to "why do you want to fantasize about being evil?"

Of interest would be to investigate the thoughts of actors who play bad guys on screen, TV, and in plays.

As to No Country for Old Men ... an interesting if disturbing movie, from an author who is over hyped.

I quite like playing evil characters personally. It fits with the resurgence of intruiging evil characters on modern TV and movies (Walter White, Tony Soprano, Dexter, Stringer Bell, Titus Pullo from Rome etc) and makes for great morality drama.

I absolutely loathe the 'evil' PC who sets about murdering a NPC becuase he didnt like him or whatever while twirling his long mousache. Actual Ted Bundy/ Joker type psychopathic mass murderers are incredibly rare, and dont reflect the complexity of evil people and personalities. Its boring, simplistic and plainly awful roleplaying the vast majority of times. Evil is not 'insane necrophilliac psycho' - more often than not 'evil' people are just regular Joes that have complex motivations for their own moral compass. Most dont even view themselves as evil.

I personally think much of the problem comes from the baseline for most adventurers is the 'murder hobo'. When you come from a starting point of justifying to your DM the slaughter of helpless or sleeping sentient creatures (even non-combatants) and try and twist it into a 'good' thing, then only acts of outright genocide and baby torture for fun can get hedged into the 'evil' bracket. Most 'good' PC's are (objectively) played at many tables as far worse monsters than the creatures they hunt down and kill.

Anyways, I digress. Im not here to tell people how to play evil. If it works at your table, go for it.

[ImSAMazing]

Great article.

I detest 'psychopath evil' more than I do 'lawful stupid'.

The kind of lack of empathy one needs to murder a bunch of innocent people and then animate them as undead slaves is beyond holocaust level of sociopathy. Real 'evil' people arent like that. Think your Walter Whites and Tony Soprano (also a sociopath) dont just spontaneosly murder hundreds of people to 'take over a town'. If the potential repurcussions didnt stop them at the very least, then it's just not what they do. They have motivations for thier evil. I suppose 'destroy the town and enslave everyone' has it's place in high fantasy literature, but it's more often than not lazy characterisation and poor roleplaying.

Unless the character in question has inentionally portrayed themselves as an utter psychopath with no regard for the ramifications of their actions and a total lack of empathy (the bad guy from no country for old men) then I'd raise an eyebrow at the least.

There would also be in game ramifications. Word would reach the local 'forces of good' and they would do something. Someting involving a bigger fish.
Haha, the last sentence :smallsmile:. It is a bit psychotic, how you say it, it makes me rethink it. Luckily I asked for advice :D

So I hear.

How does a DM deal with the standard Murder Hobo (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/q/8002/22566), eh?
Great Article!


Yes, and? What's the plan for this huge army of shadows?

And why didn't you say why you wanted to kill the entire town in the first place?
My original plan was to carry it around in a bag of holding, using it when needed for the Greater Good. But I am reconsidering that plan.


I quite like playing evil characters personally. It fits with the resurgence of intruiging evil characters on modern TV and movies (Walter White, Tony Soprano, Dexter, Stringer Bell, Titus Pullo from Rome etc) and makes for great morality drama.

I absolutely loathe the 'evil' PC who sets about murdering a NPC becuase he didnt like him or whatever while twirling his long mousache. Actual Ted Bundy/ Joker type psychopathic mass murderers are incredibly rare, and dont reflect the complexity of evil people and personalities. Its boring, simplistic and plainly awful roleplaying the vast majority of times. Evil is not 'insane necrophilliac psycho' - more often than not 'evil' people are just regular Joes that have complex motivations for their own moral compass. Most dont even view themselves as evil.

I personally think much of the problem comes from the baseline for most adventurers is the 'murder hobo'. When you come from a starting point of justifying to your DM the slaughter of helpless or sleeping sentient creatures (even non-combatants) and try and twist it into a 'good' thing, then only acts of outright genocide and baby torture for fun can get hedged into the 'evil' bracket. Most 'good' PC's are (objectively) played at many tables as far worse monsters than the creatures they hunt down and kill.

Anyways, I digress. Im not here to tell people how to play evil. If it works at your table, go for it.
I am not saying it is a good thing, it totally isn't. I am really reconsidering my plan now, but I have came up with this plan since this is probably one of the only times I will play such a high level in a 5th edition campaign, so I thought I would make the best of it.


I am really, really reconsidering my plan because it is indeed really psychiotic.

[Sigreid]

I wont tell about it to anyone. Scrying may work, thinking about that one. Thanks for the feedback!

Haven't you heard of the spell Contact Giantitip Forum?

[Sigreid]

Great article.

I detest 'psychopath evil' more than I do 'lawful stupid'.

The kind of lack of empathy one needs to murder a bunch of innocent people and then animate them as undead slaves is beyond holocaust level of sociopathy. Real 'evil' people arent like that. Think your Walter Whites and Tony Soprano (also a sociopath) dont just spontaneosly murder hundreds of people to 'take over a town'. If the potential repurcussions didnt stop them at the very least, then it's just not what they do. They have motivations for thier evil. I suppose 'destroy the town and enslave everyone' has it's place in high fantasy literature, but it's more often than not lazy characterisation and poor roleplaying.

Unless the character in question has inentionally portrayed themselves as an utter psychopath with no regard for the ramifications of their actions and a total lack of empathy (the bad guy from no country for old men) then I'd raise an eyebrow at the least.

There would also be in game ramifications. Word would reach the local 'forces of good' and they would do something. Someting involving a bigger fish.

Now now, not all sociopaths are out right evil. Mine doesn't set out to cause harm, he just puts people into three categories Friends to be supported, Enemies to be destroyed and everyone else who has no value and isn't even worth considering when making plans.

[Malifice]

Now now, not all sociopaths are out right evil. Mine doesn't set out to cause harm, he just puts people into three categories Friends to be supported, Enemies to be destroyed and everyone else who has no value and isn't even worth considering when making plans.

Sounds like your standard adventurer ;)

[Sigreid]

Sounds like your standard adventurer ;)

Well, he has little enough regard for his own life to actually go on a dangerous epic adventure. How much regard can he really be expected to have for anyone else's?:smallcool:

[Malifice]

Well, he has little enough regard for his own life to actually go on a dangerous epic adventure. How much regard can he really be expected to have for anyone else's?:smallcool:

Let me guess. CN alignment. No actual detailed backstory, place of residence, youve been playing it for months and still cant name your own parents or family members (or are some kind of orphan that doesn't know them, or they're dead etc)?

[KorvinStarmast]

Let me guess. CN alignment. No actual detailed backstory, place of residence, youve been playing it for months and still cant name your own parents or family members (or are some kind of orphan that doesn't know them, or they're dead etc)?
My current character began with a three page backstory, parents dead (killed by pirates, dad was double dealing with crooks for extra money and got busted) and the pirate leader may be folded into the campaign. DM hasnt decided yet. Motivations and such, why his background is sailor ... and how he got to be a cleric. (An old family connection ...) I enjoy the background building, though at the moment we started a simple mission to help out someone and it has turned into something quite involved and (I hate this) now we are dealing with the underdark and the drow. (I really dislike drow, have since Gygax and friends introduced them in the original Against the Giants module). Sorry, as a monster class, they are something like Limberger cheese. :smalltongue: As PC's ... don't get me started, the penalties for sunlight are not severe enough.

[Sigreid]

Let me guess. CN alignment. No actual detailed backstory, place of residence, youve been playing it for months and still cant name your own parents or family members (or are some kind of orphan that doesn't know them, or they're dead etc)?

Nope. Home town, friends, contacts, the works.