Pathfinder Estus Flask?

[5w337x7007h]

I want to make up for the lack of healers in my party, but I need some help in designing an item. The idea is to craft an Estus Flask. A healing supplement that scales as you go.

It has a scaling number of uses per day equal to half your level rounded down.

The Estus Flask is a flask made of amber that contains a viscous glowing fluid that, once imbibed, grants 1d8 healing as Cure Light Wounds (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/cure-light-wounds) + half your hit dice. You can use the Estus Flask up to a number times equal to half their hit dice, per day.

7th level: The Estus Flask grants 2d8 healing as Cure Moderate Wounds (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/cure-moderate-wounds) + half your hit dice.

10th level: The Estus Flask grants 3d8 healing as Cure Serious Wounds (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/cure-serious-wounds) + half your hit dice.

13th level: The Estus Flask grants 4d8 healing as Cure Critical Wounds (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/cure-critical-wounds) + half your hit dice.

The Estus Flask can be strengthened by an owner, giving increased benefits and a stronger glow. At 4th level, you can etch your name into the flask. Strengthening the flask requires the owner to take 1 temporary negative level. The negative level lasts for 1 week. The strengthening is permanent. You gain a bonus 5 to healing instead of half your hit dice. It can be further strengthened at 7th, 10th, and 13th level, but you must take 2 temporary negative levels at 7th, 3 at 10th, and 4 at 13th, increasing the bonus by 5 each time, for a total of +20. You can only strengthen the flask once a week.

Example: Garry a lvl 10 fighter decides to strengthen his flask for the first time, in order to strengthen it up to his level, he must strengthen it three times. The first time he strengthens his flask he will take 1 temporary negative level. The second time he'll take 2 temporary negative levels. The third time he'll take 3 temporary negative levels.

Estus Flasks cannot have more than one owner. If the current owner dies, the flask dims and the etched name vanishes, allowing a new owner to take possession of the flask.

To reiterate, The temporary negative levels cannot be healed, but they will go away after a week. You cannot strengthen the flask more than once a week.

The optional bonus comes at a cost. You can get better healing, but the flask must be strengthened by giving it part of your soul, aka the temporary negative levels. A good example would be, where Garry's friend, the wizard, would only gain 3d8+ 1/2 HD, Garry the Fighter would benefit from 3d8+15.

I based the uses and scaling on when Paladins get their cure spells, and the number of times they can use Lay On Hands. Does this look like a decent item?

[Psyren]

It seems all right (functionally the same as getting half your level in free potions) but I'm not sure about the strengthening mechanic. So you take a negative level for a week (losing 5 HP) so that your flask can heal for 5 HP more? Can characters still buy potions or wands, or summon healing creatures in this system?

[5w337x7007h]

It seems all right (functionally the same as getting half your level in free potions) but I'm not sure about the strengthening mechanic. So you take a negative level for a week (losing 5 HP) so that your flask can heal for 5 HP more? Can characters still buy potions or wands, or summon healing creatures in this system?

Well I could shorten the week to a day, but the flask can still only be strengthened once a week. The idea behind this item is to lighten a partial healer's load.

As for consumables, yeah, if you can buy them get them, but potions only heal to the minimum caster level, meaning you'd only get 1d8+1, 2d8+3, 3d8+5, or 4d8+7. You can however have custom consumables made with higher bonuses, but then they'd cost more, and when you're out you've got to buy more. A CSW pot with a 15 CL would be 2250g. A wand at the same CL would be 33750g, with 50 charges.

The price is where I'm struggling, because I think it's a great item, but it's price is going to skyrocket at each unlock.

[torrasque666]

I'm not seeing anything that says that the strengthening only lasts for a week. Or maybe I am and just reading it poorly. In any case, you could allow the strengthening to persist even past the negative level.

[5w337x7007h]

I'm not seeing anything that says that the strengthening only lasts for a week. Or maybe I am and just reading it poorly. In any case, you could allow the strengthening to persist even past the negative level.

The strengthening is supposed to be permanent. I should really edit that.

[torrasque666]

The strengthening is supposed to be permanent. I should really edit that.
Probably. Its likely the comma that's throwing it off. Probably instead put something like
The Estus Flask can be strengthened by an owner, giving increased benefits and a stronger glow. At 4th level, you can etch your name into the flask. Strengthening the flask requires the owner to take 1 temporary negative level. The negative level lasts for 1 week. The strengthening is permanent.

[Andreaz]

I'd in this case remove from the game cheaply spammable heals like wands. I'd make a simpler mechanic as well.
For example: the flask heals up 1d8 + half level, then 3d8+ level, then 2×level. Uses per day are 2, 4, 5... Up to half your level.

Strengthening the flask gives you one of either progression and can be done once a week and gives you a negative level for a day or two.

So it quickly goes from a few hit points to your square level. It's a good amount, and almost exclusivel off-battle thing.

[Oddman80]

i have two problems with it actually:

from a fluff standpoint, you are creating an item that mixes positive and negative energies - good and evil spells... to craft such a thing would require an unusual collaboration between good and evil casters.

Additionally, the penalty is really quite steep! At level 13, you are offering 6x/day 4d8+20 healing in exchange for a total of negative 24 levels... so that just doesn't work, as some how the flask knows its owner, and will not work 'properly' for anyone other than its owner... So at level 13, the most a single PC could use the thing (at full strength) is 3 times per day, which would result in the PC getting stuck at level 1 for a week. All of that is in exchange for healing an average of 111 hit points... Oh! but because of the 12 negative levels the PC took, it reduces his/her max HP by 60... so unless you are a high CON barbarian, it is unlikely you could even get that much healing, before reaching a new, lower HP cap due to temp negative levels.

By comparison, at level 13, a single Heal spell by a cleric would heal a character for 130 HP, and remove any and all ability damage, as well as the blinded, confused, dazed, dazzled, deafened, diseased, exhausted, fatigued, feeble-minded, insanity, nauseated, poisoned, sickened, and stunned conditions.

A PC could hire a cleric to cast such a spell for 780 gp, or .5% of the PC's level 13 wealth.
That seams rather reasonable...

If Cleric Spellcasting services aren't available for purchase, though - and that's why you are trying to make this item - then the party members won't be able to obtain a restoration spell to counter the temporary negative levels. That means that if the party needs serious healing, then they are getting sidelined for an entire week. But if (at level 13) you just simply took a week of full bed rest, you would heal 182 hit points on your own. No need for your Estus Flask at all.

if you are looking for a simple solution to lack of HP healing in the party, you may consider dropping an item from D&D 3.5 into the mix. It is called a Healing Belt (found in the Magic Item Compendium) and it costs only 750 gp to buy. It comes with 3 charges that refresh each day. Activating the belt is a standard action. If, when activated, you use only a single charge, you heal 2d6 points of damage. If you burn 2 charges at once, you heal 3d6 points of damage, and if you burn all 3 charges at once you heal 4d6 points of damage.

So, by using 3 standard actions, a character could heal between 6-36 hp/day (21 hp/day average... or 147 hp/week). Not too shabby. Also - as a normal wondrous item, it can be used to full effect by any party member, as needed. If one combines three days of using this item coupled with full bed rest - you get 141 hit points healed at level 13.

I do have to ask one last thing. Does the party not have anyone that can somewhat reliably hit the needed 20 UMD to activate a simple wand of CLW? I mean, even if the character only has a 25% chance of rolling high enough to hit the DC 20, it should be sufficient to help the party enough to avoid this whole mess. After all, rolling a Natural 1 on the UMD check only makes the wand unusable for 24 hours.. its not like it destroys it.

Finally, have you looked at Pathfinder Unchained's Scaling Magic Items? (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/scaling-magic-items) You could give them a base level item that has the ability to grow with the party if they pay the gold to unlock higher functionality... that way they continue to invest in the item in order to get the scaling benefits, but you don't need to introduce any sort of scaling drawbacks for balance.

[5w337x7007h]

You can strengthen the flask four times. 4th, 7th, 10th, 13th. Strengthening the flask is a permanent boost to it's effective power when dealing with the owner. Hence why you can only Strengthen a flask four (4) times.

At 13th level, you'll be dealing with four (4) temporary negative levels for one week, if you've routinely strengthened it at 4th level, 7th level, and 10th level.

So if I were to strengthen the flask at 4th level, I'd take one (1) temporary negative level that lasts for one (1) week, and the flask gains a permanent +5 to it's healing when I drink from it. That's 1d8+5 as opposed to 1d8+2 without strengthening it.

I want to make myself clear on this subject. When you strengthen the flask, that's a permanent boost to the item, which can be done four (4) times overall, giving you a +20 after your fourth and final time strengthening it.

Now Say I'm at 7th level and I want to strengthen my flask further. I will take two (2) negative levels, that last for one (1) week. This counts as the second strengthening, which makes that permanent +5 a +10.

I can go on, but I won't because I hope I've made myself clear as to how this item functions. You can only ever strengthen an Estus Flask four (4) times during ownership. Once you've fully strengthened it, it's done and you'll gain the benefits of 4d8+20 (equivalent to a 20th level cleric casting CCW on you) whenever you drink from the flask.

This is the Estus Flask (http://darksouls2.wiki.fextralife.com/Estus+Flask) if anyone is curious.

Also, if I were to make a Dark Souls campaign, I'd limit all casters to 4th level spells maximum, prohibit the creation of magic items, hand each of them an estus flask, and say, "Survive". Of course I'd be happy to allow them to buy items from vendors, find loot on dead enemies, and even offer them bonfires as a method of quick recovery, but when you do rest at a bonfire every enemy, not including bosses, comes back. Also, experience is money. You can spend souls to level, or you can spend souls on equipment. The system would have to be adjusted for balancing purposes.

[Oddman80]

Thank you for clarifying.
That makes a lot more sense now.

Can the flask be used a total number of times per day equal to half the owner's hit die? Or can anyone use the flask a number of times per day equal to half their own hit die (yet the owner gets added heling benefits when he/she drinks from it)?

So, a level 10 fighter owns the flask, can it be used a total of 5 times that day (divided out howver he pleases between he and anyone else) or could he use it 5 times a day himself, and then also provide 1/day healing to a endless line of level 2 commoners after a natural disaster hit their town?


You had deleted your original post/reponse to me about pricing of scaling items - and that may mean you are not interested in that line of discussion.. hence i placed this in the spoiler brackets.

Based on Unchained Scaling Magic Items, the most expensive/strongest ability of the item is what sets the craft cost - but not the actual value of the item. So, while a item that allows 10x/day use of (Caster Level 15) Cure Critical Wounds would have a final value of 240,000 gp (and a craft cost of 120,000) it would have a much smaller starting cost at level 1. A 1/day Caster Level 1 CLW item would cost only 400 gp. The item can then be upgraded from there.


By 4th level, a 2/day Caster Level 4 - CMW item would cost 6400 gp (upgrade cost of 6000 gp, or craft cost of 3000 gp)

By 6th level, a 3/day Caster Level 6 - CSW item would cost 21,600 gp (upgrade cost of 15,200 gp, or craft cost of 7600 gp)

By 8th level, a 4/day Caster Level 8 - CCW item would cost 51,200 gp (upgrade cost of 29,600 gp, or craft cost of 14,800 gp)

By 12th level, a 6/day Caster Level 12 - CCW item would cost 115,200 gp (upgrade cost of 64,000 gp, or craft cost of 32,000 gp)

By 15th level, a 8/day Caster Level 15 - CCW item would cost 192,200 gp (upgrade cost of 76,800 gp, or craft cost of 38,400 gp)

[5w337x7007h]

The full benefit from a fully strengthened Estus Flask is supposed to be treated like Cure Critical Wounds cast by a 20th level Cleric (4d8+20). But this benefit is only offered to the owner. The power is supposed to scale to the user's level as well. So I guess it could have the uses per day equal to half the owner's hit dice, if the owner decided to share, he could, at max only give out 10 uses at 4d8+10. So once the uses are expended you need to wait until the next day for the uses to replenish. So technically after possessing the flask for 24 hours it's attuned to you, and scales off your hit dice and its unlocked potential.

The Estus Flask isn't made to be shared in the Dark Souls games though. Though it's technically supposed to be lethal to mortals who don't suffer the curse of undeath. But that has to deal with lore in the Dark Souls games.

Oh god... I'd love to make a class or race based on this as part of Pathfinder. Can't die, but for every death you gain a negative level which can be healed by restoring your humanity. If you gain a number of negative levels equal to your character levels, you end up hollowed and become a mindless undead, to which there is no recovery, unless someone is generous enough to restore your humanity for you. You're given an estus flask, but the uses and powers are costly, and the item is exclusive to your race, because it's lethal to anyone who doesn't suffer from the curse.

[Andreaz]

Oh god... I'd love to make a class or race based on this as part of Pathfinder. Can't die, but for every death you gain a negative level which can be healed by restoring your humanity. If you gain a number of negative levels equal to your character levels, you end up hollowed and become a mindless undead, to which there is no recovery, unless someone is generous enough to restore your humanity for you. You're given an estus flask, but the uses and powers are costly, and the item is exclusive to your race, because it's lethal to anyone who doesn't suffer from the curse.

That'd be a racial template better than a standalone race.

[5w337x7007h]

Agreed. As for dealing with the situation; I could totally see the people of Golarion, or at least the clergy of Iomedae, go around and collect the 'hollowed' and stuff them into an asylum to live out their humanity, away from the general populous to keep the Curse of Undeath from spreading. I mean, I'd even make Urgathoa afraid of it, because these aren't mindless undead, they're the cursed living. Every aspect is part of a curse and they can only meet true death when the curse is broken.