Durkula may be going to lose this fight

[Kindley Pixel]

I admit this is a pretty shaky argument, but it seems like Durkula has no reason to try to mind control Roy into stop fighting rather than just killing him, unless he doesn't think he can win.

[littlebum2002]

So if you're in a fight, even if you are 100% certain you'll win, you can't think of ONE reason to instead choose to end it in a fashion that doesn't involve you getting hit by a sword numerous times first?

And in a fight where you have a 98% chance of winning, you can't think of ONE reason to make that a 99% chance?

I'm not saying Roy doesn't have a chance, I'm saying Durkon fighting intelligently doesn't have anything to do with that. If anything, the fact that Durkon knows how to use all the tools at his disposal is BAD news for Roy.

[Tathum]

I agree Durkula is going to lose...

1) It seems like the only way to keep the vote from going through, ending the world.

2) Roy has all of those anti-spellcasting feats to put to good use.

3) Belkar hasn't had a sufficient enough death scene to rule him being out of the way; he's coming back to get his "you-were-right-about-Durkula's" before this is over.

4) C'mon, he done pissed off Roy.

The only thing that worries me is that Durkon hasn't been a vampire long enough to think there might be a comeback for him in this. If is stopped here, it will probably be end with him being dusted, having those ashes boxed up, and interred in his ancestral home.

On the plus side, the argument can be made that he hasn't actually made it home, yet. If that is the case, then both the Oracle's prophecy and the High Cleric of Thor's prophecy of his bringing Death to the dwarves is still on the table.

[Mike Havran]

Durkula is Durkon's personal nemesis, anathema. When Durkula falls, it will be because Durkon has managed to prevail against him, somehow, not because Roy has waved his magic sword.

Also, all Durkula has to do is to change into a bat or gas and fly out of Roy's reach.

[Sky_Schemer]

Also, all Durkula has to do is to change into a bat or gas and fly out of Roy's reach.

We don't know all of the rules about what it means to be "present" for a god's vote to count. It could be that Durkula is not able to do either of these things without ending the proxy spell/manifestation/whatever it is.

[Gift Jeraff]

Roy can slay Durkula but not permanently if he stakes him, and then Gontor Hammerhel removes the stake after the vote is over.

[1chapelcredit]

Durkula is Durkon's personal nemesis, anathema. When Durkula falls, it will be because Durkon has managed to prevail against him, somehow, not because Roy has waved his magic sword.

Also, all Durkula has to do is to change into a bat or gas and fly out of Roy's reach.

This exactly. Durkon was working on something in 963; if Roy does win, it will be because of that, and not simply Roy's fighting prowess, however formidable against undead magic users it may be.

[Blisstake]

I admit this is a pretty shaky argument, but it seems like Durkula has no reason to try to mind control Roy into stop fighting rather than just killing him, unless he doesn't think he can win.

I think you're looking at this the wrong way. Domination is how vampires like to win encounters; for the intents of this fight, domination is as good as winning... actually it's better, because it also gives you a minion to play around with.

[Dorni]

It is a mistake to believe that this fight has to end with either Roy or Durkula being killed.

Durkula's objective isn't to kill Roy - its to carry out Hel's plan to have the world destroyed. He just needs to not be killed while the demi-god votes are tallied. Roy is a Fighter which has a low Will Save. By mind controlling Roy into not attacking, he eliminates Roy as a threat and buys time for the voting to continue. Durkula wasn't trying to avoid the fight, he was trying to win the fight.

Roy doesn't need to kill Durkula either. Remember, as per the rules the god needs to have their cleric present in order for their vote to be counted. If Durkula were forced to retreat/escape, then Hel's vote would also no longer be counted.

And while I'm very much a fan of narrative trumping perfect mechanical play, as others have noted Durkula has too many escapes for me to believe Roy is going to kill him. It would also be a waste of a great potential story arc.

[Jothki]

There's at least one other priest of Hel in the building who doesn't have Roy as a bodyguard, so the narrative tension isn't in danger here.

[Alex Warlorn]

Whether Durkula wins or not is meaningless, he's served Hel's scheme already. He created a horde of back-up high priests. Taking him down is meaningless.

[Alex Warlorn]

And while I'm very much a fan of narrative trumping perfect mechanical play, as others have noted Durkula has too many escapes for me to believe Roy is going to kill him. It would also be a waste of a great potential story arc.

THIS IS the story arc! And Hel no longer needs him IN PARTICULAR, he created an entire clergy for her before coming in, so they can congo line until the vote is finished.

[Sylthia]

Did the other clerics actually vampirize yet? We never saw the spell being cast, and we don't know for sure if Durkula can cast it.

To go along with Roy winning, it looks like Durkula's Holy Symbol is swinging quite a bit in the last panel. If Roy were to cut that off somehow, it would level the playing field between the two quite a bit.

[5tephen]

I personally plump for a bit of all of the above:

Roy prevails (I like the idea of removing Durkula's Holy Symbol)
Durkula is forced to retreat thus removing Hel's vote
No other clerics of Hel are present, because Durkula didn't turn them after killing them. (No time, and didn't want to waste the spell slot, and didn't need them, and didn't want brand new uncontrolled vampires running around: wanted an orderly vote.)
Durkula returns to Durkon's homeland bringing death and destruction with him.

Durkula is eventually defeated, by Durkon's outwitting him and using Durkula's inability to perceive/understand good emotions.

...Durkon dies in the process.

[theasl]

Did the other clerics actually vampirize yet? We never saw the spell being cast, and we don't know for sure if Durkula can cast it.

Personally, I don't think so. There would have be time in between the second vampirization and him arriving at the main room to do things freely, like raise Gontor and the other one, hide their bodies, or even drain some more unfortunate victims, but until Rich shows us there is no way to know.

[SlashDash]

I agree Durkula is going to lose...

1) It seems like the only way to keep the vote from going through, ending the world.

False. As was stated, they just need to get Durkula out of the room.
It's possible that getting him to dismiss the spell (it might need concentration, we don't know) or dispelling it will also work if he doesn't have another one memorized.



2) Roy has all of those anti-spellcasting feats to put to good use.

And Malack defeated Durkon without any. Plus, if Durkula has flight or anything, the battle is over. The ring of jumping isn't with Roy...



3) Belkar hasn't had a sufficient enough death scene to rule him being out of the way; he's coming back to get his "you-were-right-about-Durkula's" before this is over.

Most likely



4) C'mon, he done pissed off Roy.

True, but doesn't mean squat.


The only thing that worries me is that Durkon hasn't been a vampire long enough to think there might be a comeback for him in this. If is stopped here, it will probably be end with him being dusted, having those ashes boxed up, and interred in his ancestral home.

Your assumption is that this will end with one of their deaths - why?
Isn't it likely that Durkula just walk away if his plan fails? Word of Recall was used by Redcloak, I'm guessing Durkula probably has a sanctuary of his own (possibly on the ship). If not he can always turn into bat-dwarf again (which the Giant needs to put on a T-Shirt ASAP)

More likely that I think he'll run away and eventually join Xykon. We are constantly reminded that the ritual requires arcane and divine casters and Red Cloak is going to betray Xykon eventually so wouldn't shock me if Durkula takes his place.

After all, remember that Loki said the gods can vote "No" on the world and then destroy the world anyway before the Snarl escapes. So, if Hel fails, her next bet would be to unleash the Snarl to force the gods to destroy the world.


Did the other clerics actually vampirize yet? We never saw the spell being cast, and we don't know for sure if Durkula can cast it.

The spell exists in Malack's staff which Durkula carries. He has studied the staff for all the time they've traveled on the ship. It's safe to assume he can at least use it.


I personally plump for a bit of all of the above:

Roy prevails (I like the idea of removing Durkula's Holy Symbol)
Durkula is forced to retreat thus removing Hel's vote
No other clerics of Hel are present, because Durkula didn't turn them after killing them. (No time, and didn't want to waste the spell slot, and didn't need them, and didn't want brand new uncontrolled vampires running around: wanted an orderly vote.)
Durkula returns to Durkon's homeland bringing death and destruction with him.

Durkula is eventually defeated, by Durkon's outwitting him and using Durkula's inability to perceive/understand good emotions.

...Durkon dies in the process.
I would still be my money on Belkar showing up.

[mig el pig]

There's at least one other priest of Hel in the building who doesn't have Roy as a bodyguard, so the narrative tension isn't in danger here.

Perhaps but If he doesn't have spell slots can he cast 'summon proxy' to prove he's Hell's new high priest?

[Lvl 2 Expert]

More likely that I think he'll run away and eventually join Xykon. We are constantly reminded that the ritual requires arcane and divine casters and Red Cloak is going to betray Xykon eventually so wouldn't shock me if Durkula takes his place.

But the ritual was Redcloak's idea. It's useless to Xykon, because it can only transfer control of the rifts to the Dark One. On top of that, the only way to know that half of the ritual is to be the high priest of the Dark One and wear the red cape.

[SlashDash]

But the ritual was Redcloak's idea. It's useless to Xykon, because it can only transfer control of the rifts to the Dark One. On top of that, the only way to know that half of the ritual is to be the high priest of the Dark One and wear the red cape.

If the Dark One can grant it to Red, why can't Hel give the knowledge to Durkula?

[hroþila]

If the Dark One can grant it to Red, why can't Hel give the knowledge to Durkula?
Because everything we've been told suggests the ritual is something the Dark One came up with, not something he knew by virtue of being a god.

[Shekinah]

This fight could really go either way. The cleric of Thor intrigues me greatly in this, and I think she will have at least a small hand in what comes. While she can't harm Durkula, maybe she'll be able to heal and buff Roy? Unless assisting in a fight is banned, too, which wouldn't surprise me.

[Sylthia]

The spell exists in Malack's staff which Durkula carries. He has studied the staff for all the time they've traveled on the ship. It's safe to assume he can at least use it.


I'm not sure how long it takes to research spells out of the staff or how many charges of the spell the staff held. I know a lot of spell-learning rules are pretty weird, like needing 7 pages to record a one word spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0306.html). Durkon probably put more priority into researching the Protection from Daylight Spell.

It seems like Malack was saving the spell for a special occasion when he cast it. If there are an arbitrarily high number of charges in the wand, maybe vamping some po-dunk middling cleric would make sense, but otherwise it would seem to make sense to save it for a more powerful thrall.

[martianmister]

False. As was stated, they just need to get Durkula out of the room.

High Priest of Balder leaved the room and his vote still counts.

[Sylthia]

High Priest of Balder leaved the room and his vote still counts.

Maybe they have to leave the building, or allowances are made if they are still doing stuff for the moot, like gathering the lesser clerics.

[Seward]

I'm not sure how long it takes to research spells out of the staff or how many charges of the spell the staff held. I know a lot of spell-learning rules are pretty weird, like needing 7 pages to record a one word spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0306.html).

That's an artifact of Vancian magic.

All spells are mostly in the spellbook, not in the casting. You do the hour of prep while referencing your tome and cast MOST of all of the spells you've got for the day. Then you can release the spell with a single word, or a few words and a gesture, etc.

Think of it as the equivalent of writing a computer program vs executing it. Except that wizards have to re-write the program every day, referencing their spellbook.

So - 7 pages in a book and probably several minutes referencing it (given how many other spells V can prep in an hour) so that he has bound up enough arcane energy in just the right form to release on a designated target it with a single word.

If you thought the spellbook just contained the Word itself, there'd be no need to prep it and no limits on using it. V could just remember the Word and spam it over and over. Like Sorcerers can until high level spell slots are exhausted. Or Psions forever till they entirely run out of points.

[SlashDash]

High Priest of Balder leaved the room and his vote still counts.

But the dialogue between Roy and Wreckan clearly states the priests have to stay put. So either its not just the room but the building or possibly an oversight, or possibly since the priest is leaving the vote is being stalled a bit till he comes back.

Either way, it's clear that Durkula can't leave the place entirely.

[Silverionmox]

High Priest of Balder leaved the room and his vote still counts.

It has been pretty much invalidated by the last comic, but another way to resolve the issue favorably was one of the clerics violating the rules, after which a clerical free-for-all would ensue... killing every cleric in the room. The Balder's priest would return, and, being the only one with a vote left, win the vote with 1 against 0 for not destroying the world.

[Fish]

I'm going to argue this in two ways: (Monty Python aside: "First in my normal voice, and then in a kind of silly high-pitched whine.")

Durkula doesn't have to lose the fight to have his vote rejected. Durkula announced himself as "Durkon Thundershield." If Roy is able to definitively prove that isn't Durkon, it may be the vote doesn't count; there may be a rule against impostors.

Still, I expect this is the last we'll see of Durkula, as the vampire cleric doesn't seem to have any plot points beyond this one. Go to the meeting, snarl up the vote, destroy the world, win. There's no Plan B. Of course Rich could invent or reveal a further purpose to the HPoH, but as of now, I don't see one.

I would personally enjoy seeing Elan talk his way in to the Moot by having Banjo join the pantheon, but I doubt it'll happen.

[Mike Havran]

I'm going to argue this in two ways: (Monty Python aside: "First in my normal voice, and then in a kind of silly high-pitched whine.")

Durkula doesn't have to lose the fight to have his vote rejected. Durkula announced himself as "Durkon Thundershield." If Roy is able to definitively prove that isn't Durkon, it may be the vote doesn't count; there may be a rule against impostors.

Still, I expect this is the last we'll see of Durkula, as the vampire cleric doesn't seem to have any plot points beyond this one. Go to the meeting, snarl up the vote, destroy the world, win. There's no Plan B. Of course Rich could invent or reveal a further purpose to the HPoH, but as of now, I don't see one.

I would personally enjoy seeing Elan talk his way in to the Moot by having Banjo join the pantheon, but I doubt it'll happen.Why shouldn't Durkula's true name be Durkon Thundershield? Nobody says the vampire spirit has to have a different name than the victim.

I assumed that Durkula has also the purpose of giving Durkon his own personal enemy he should triumph against. That never happens if Roy kills him now.