[3.5] Incarnate builds?

[bogsnes]

I've tried googling to find actual Incarnate builds, however the results have been fairly dissappointing, considering how much stuff the class can do, etc. I've found some CN spitters and some NG tanks with VoP and whatnot, but in general way less than expected. Is this just because the source is so obscure and rarely used? Also, do any of you have any nice builds that you would be willing to share? Kind of wanting to see what people have done to be useful in combat at the midlevels for instance, because most builds I've thought of don't really have much offensive poential after spitting no longer is very efficient. Does one generally splash a level of warblade/crusader or 2 at some point to keep up?

In general I'd like to see semifleshed out build ideas (as in race/class levels/feats) to see what the class can do except for spitting and tanking (assuming the mobs bother to hit you when you don't do much harm to them).

[ComaVision]

The thing is that you don't really get much for staying in Incarnate. You're best off picking one of the theurge type prestige classes and going that route.

[Talionis]

The thing is that you don't really get much for staying in Incarnate. You're best off picking one of the theurge type prestige classes and going that route.

I'll second this, most of the optimization builds splash incarnate. It can often add a lot with its first level and the returns for staying in it do not scale well especially since the class abilities scale without staying in the class.

Meld shaper level matters for a few abilities, but not many.

However look up Incarnate by the Numbers. It's a guide that is still around and breaks the numbers down pretty well.

Incarnates are very good at being hard to kill and can keep up with a lot of Rogues skills.

By the Numbers runs through a lot of the combat options. Taking Frost Helm as a feat helps some.

I also see two levels of Tome of Battle base classes do make combat as an Incarnate more fun. Remember the discipline items in the back of the book that help you have at least one of the best maneuvers of some of the disciplines as you level. I suggest spreading out your maneuvers so that you can use two or three of those items and have more maneuvers available. Crusader and Swordsage are better in that regard because they get to know more maneuvers in the first two levels

Another item that may help is a Skillful Weapon that gives you the three quarters BAB for that weapon only.

Share Soulmeld helps to increase your spitting damage since your familiar, or other mount, companion also gets your soulmelds.

But Incarnates aren't going to be crazy good at damage.

[Troacctid]

Standard melee Incarnate build: LN Incarnate 4/Crusader 1/Incarnate +X; alternately, Incarnate 8/Crusader 1/Incarnate +X. Crusader is a high-value dip, adding a lot of extra power for very little investment. (Standard action strikes also have good synergy with Lightning Gauntlets bound to your hands.) Delaying the lesser chakras hurts, but it's worth it. This build also works great with Ironsoul Forgemaster, if that floats your boat.

Minionmancer build: NE Incarnate 2/Wizard 3/Soulcaster 10. Use the animal companion variant for Wizard, and take Obtain Familiar as a feat. Take Share Soulmeld to share your soulmelds with both of them. You can also get a necrocarnum zombie and a soulspark. Congratulations, you're taking five turns per round instead of one.

Necrocarnate build: NE Incarnate 6/Necrocarnate 13. Use the Primary Contact feat for early entry into Necrocarnate. Raise some necrocarnum zombies or whatever.

Psionic build: Incarnate 3/Ardent 2/Soul Manifester 10. Use the ol' Practiced Manifester trick to boost Ardent manifesting. Pick up the Psionic Open Chakra power with a feat, and use Overchannel and Midnight Augmentation and other ML boosts to bind all the soulmelds to all the chakras earlier than a regular Incarnate could. Also, ask your DM if a psicrystal can benefit from Share Soulmeld.

[Brova]

Minionmancer build: NE Incarnate 2/Wizard 3/Soulcaster 10. Use the animal companion variant for Wizard, and take Obtain Familiar as a feat. Take Share Soulmeld to share your soulmelds with both of them. You can also get a necrocarnum zombie and a soulspark. Congratulations, you're taking five turns per round instead of one.

What is that getting you over a more standard necromancy Wizard or Dread Necromancer build? Shape Soulmeld (necrocarnum whatever) gets you a necrocarnum zombie, and I feel like the delay in getting other options (animate dead mostly, but also planar binding) isn't really worth it for the stuff you get. Is the soulspark doing something totally insane?

[Grod_The_Giant]

What is that getting you over a more standard necromancy Wizard or Dread Necromancer build? Shape Soulmeld (necrocarnum whatever) gets you a necrocarnum zombie, and I feel like the delay in getting other options (animate dead mostly, but also planar binding) isn't really worth it for the stuff you get. Is the soulspark doing something totally insane?
You can use Share Soulmeld with all of them and turn yourself into a lovely little Dissolving Spittle volley gun?

[Troacctid]

What is that getting you over a more standard necromancy Wizard or Dread Necromancer build? Shape Soulmeld (necrocarnum whatever) gets you a necrocarnum zombie, and I feel like the delay in getting other options (animate dead mostly, but also planar binding) isn't really worth it for the stuff you get. Is the soulspark doing something totally insane?

Despite delaying your casting, you actually come online a lot sooner than a straight caster would, just because of the crazy early-game power of soulmelds. Share Soulmeld lets you extend that power into the midgame by doubling and then tripling your damage output, and because you're a theurge, you scale even better into the lategame than a single-class Wizard would. Basically, you know how theurges are typically underpowered because, despite being really strong in the endgame, they take a long time to get going, and as a result, they often end up being worse than if you'd gone single-classed? Soulcaster is like that, except instead of taking a long time to get going, you get to hit the ground running with one of the best low-level classes in the game; and instead of being worse than either of your classes individually, you're basically strictly better than a straight Incarnate, because the class is so frontloaded that there's nothing to delay.

Also, while Shape Soulmeld can technically get you a necrocarnum zombie as a non-Incarnate, it still costs you a 4th-level spell to bind it, and the zombie you get is a pretty crappy one, since your meldshaper level is going to be garbage.

[Brova]

Despite delaying your casting, you actually come online a lot sooner than a straight caster would, just because of the crazy early-game power of soulmelds.

I'm still not super convinced that soulmelds are a powerhouse at low levels. dissolving spittle is sweet and all, but it's ultimately just a way to deal a bunch of damage to one target. It's ranged, making it better than a Barbarian's greataxe or a Cleric's mace, but it doesn't seem like something to hold up as "crazy power" in a world of silent image, color spray, and sleep.


Basically, you know how theurges are typically underpowered because, despite being really strong in the endgame, they take a long time to get going, and as a result, they often end up being worse than if you'd gone single-classed?

In my experience, that's the opposite of how it works. At low levels, being a theurge is a great deal. The best level of a Wizard/Beguiler/Ultimate Magus's life (compared to a straight Wizard of the same character level) is 2nd, because he gets twice as many 1st level castings and isn't behind any spell levels and hasn't lost out on any class features. At high levels, you're bringing as much casting to the table from your theurge-ing as you would from Leadership (less for your secondary class, less for both classes if you didn't have an early entry trick), and you've given up the ability to be a Shadowcraft Mage or Geometer or whatever to do it.

[Red Fel]

This build also works great with Ironsoul Forgemaster, if that floats your boat.

Here I come to save the day!

Yeah, I'm a big fan of using Incarnate as an intro to the Ironsoul Forgemaster PrC. There are a bunch of build stubs over here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17377971&postcount=5) for the Ironsoul Forgemaster.

The fact is, Incarnum is in a bit of a tricky situation. On the one hand, it doesn't multiclass well, as the primary class feature of Incarnum classes - soulmelds - is progressed exclusively by MoI classes, and without that progression, they're not amazing. At higher levels, having a limited essentia pool and a limited number of melds gives you versatility, but fairly little punch. On the other hand, if you don't multiclass, you really can't excel at any particular role, although you can dabble quite well. So a bit of dipping here and there does wonders.

As others have mentioned, dipping ToB classes is amazing for any melee-oriented Incarnate. The opposite is also true - dipping Incarnate is amazing for any ToB class, or almost any non-caster, as it gives you a profound surge in versatility.

But yeah, back to builds, it really depends on what you're trying to do. The IF-focused ones in the thread I linked are a few examples of builds with a particular goal that do the job reasonably well. Rather amusingly, the two more fleshed-out Incarnate-based builds use psionics, which incidentally couples very nicely with Incarnum generally and Incarnates particularly.

[Troacctid]

I'm still not super convinced that soulmelds are a powerhouse at low levels. dissolving spittle is sweet and all, but it's ultimately just a way to deal a bunch of damage to one target. It's ranged, making it better than a Barbarian's greataxe or a Cleric's mace, but it doesn't seem like something to hold up as "crazy power" in a world of silent image, color spray, and sleep.

DR 4/magic is game-breaking against low-CR enemies. They just can't break through it. Combine that with your strong, consistent DPS and it's basically impossible for you to lose a fight: you're one- or two-shotting enemies while they can't touch you at all. Arcane casters are glass cannons; Incarnates are just actual cannons.

[Pluto!]

I've used Incarnate in a lot of builds, but I can't think of one that was actually stronger for it.
At least not ine that used more than a 1-4 level incarnum dip, anyway. (And those were only actually an asset in the cases of weak classes like mundane skillmonkeys and fighter-types.)

[Chronos]

Quoth Talionis:

Incarnates are very good at being hard to kill and can keep up with a lot of Rogues skills.
The thing is, a straight Incarnate can be nearly as good at skills as a straight Rogue (though still with some major gaps like the stealth skills)... but a rogue with a one-level dip in incarnate is significantly better than either. Especially if you then follow up with three levels of Umbral Disciple. There's really very little reason to stay in Incarnate, compared to switching to a different class: You start off with access to all of the melds you'll ever get, and your essentia capacity depends on character level, not class level.

[Talionis]

As others have mentioned, dipping ToB classes is amazing for any melee-oriented Incarnate. The opposite is also true - dipping Incarnate is amazing for any ToB class, or almost any non-caster, as it gives you a profound surge in versatility.

This is one of those things you wouldn't on its face think was true, but is very very true. Without a prestige class that allows you to theurge ToB with MoI, the first thought is that you'd need Bloodline Levels from Unearthed Arcana to make it work. But ... And its a big one. Both systems are pretty kind to characters that dipping and get more powerful based on your total character level not just your levels in the particular class.

Also many of the ToB maneuvers are based on skill checks. Take Setting Sun Discipline... It uses a lot of Sense Motive and Strength checks. All of the throw maneuvers have strength (or Dex checks). Between Mauling Gauntlets, Sphinx Claws (? not 100%, since Totemists get so many claws) and the feat that grants you one Essentia and allows you to apply it to all Trip checks you have three different melds you can potentially dump into to increase your strength check. (This also works for a lot of the Tiger Claw maneuvers with Jump checks, there are even more Totemist melds that increase jumping. The 9th level Setting Sun Maneuver grants you more attacks in one round based on your speed, which again Incarnates have access to so many ways to increase speed. While looking back at this much of this requires feats to grab Totemist and Soul Paladin melds, but I do think that even a 20 level Incarnate should look very closing for a couple soulmelds from other classes to pick up by the feat.

Worg Pelt is another great feat to get access to stealth skills and to increase speed.

[bogsnes]

Yeah, ToB with incarnum seems fairly strong to me as well. One of the builds I was thinking about before starting the thread was Swordsage 6/Incarnate 14, taking swordsage at levels 1, 8, 11, 14, 17 and 20, giving me 7th level manuevers as well as a fair bit of meldshaping. Incarnate 4/Crusader 1/Ironsoul Forgemaster 2/Crusader +1/Ironsoul Forgemaster+8 also potentially seems decent.

I think I have to read up some on the whole setting sun discipline as I haven't used it too much and both sense motive and speed are areas where souldmelds (and class features for CN incarnates) can help, and having not used it before (setting sun that is) I didn't realize you could gain all that much from those.

[WhamBamSam]

I'm a big fan of Changeling as an Incarnate race for a few reasons.

1. With Racial Emulation, a changeling can access several the nice racial options that Incarnates have at once (the three Incarnate RSL options by emulating a Lesser Tiefling, Lesser Aasimar, or Gnome, Draconic Melds by emulating a Dragon Magic subrace or kobold, Ironsoul Forgemaster by emulating a Dwarf if you're non-evil). If you're a NG Incarnate, you can even bounce back and forth between Gnome and Aasimar Incarnate sublevels (which basically means you get your choice of sublevel at 1 and 7, free Detect Thoughts, the improvement to Incarnum Radiance, and 2 extra skill points on any level where you didn't take the Aasimar sub-level, d8 HD on each level that you did). This is a general bit of changeling cheese, of course, but Incarnate has an especially large number of race-specific options.

2. Other changeling sub-levels work very nicely in Incarnate builds even before you get into Racial Emulation stuff. Changeling Rogue will boost your skillmonkey ability considerably, and you'll barely even miss Trapfinding, as the Theft Gloves' hand bind gives it back. If you're a Soulcaster and can spare two more levels of Wizard before you enter Soulcaster, then Morphic Familiar+Improved Familiar will give you a pretty significant extra dimension to the pet that you're sharing soulmelds with.

3. Able Learner is available to Changelings per a sidebar in the Chameleon class in Races of Destiny. This can help a lot, what with how badly the Incarnate skill list sucks, especially if you're opening with a level of Changeling Rogue. For that matter, Chameleon itself can synergize very nicely with a dip in a Meldshaping class, as the floating feat can be used to pick up improving Open Chakra feats as you scale in level or melds from other class lists on a day to day basis.

[bogsnes]

Does racial emulation allow you to qualify for prestige classes (even if you later stop emulating dwarves?). Seems like a fairly painful RP requirement if not.

[Talionis]

Does racial emulation allow you to qualify for prestige classes (even if you later stop emulating dwarves?). Seems like a fairly painful RP requirement if not.

My understanding is that Changeling just qualifies as every race regardless of what race it is currently emulating. Which makes sense, most prestige classes aren't biological requirements they just only seem to be taught to a certain race. So I don't think you lose whole prestige class abilities by emulating a different race. Anyone know better?

[ComaVision]

My understanding is that Changeling just qualifies as every race regardless of what race it is currently emulating. Which makes sense, most prestige classes aren't biological requirements they just only seem to be taught to a certain race. So I don't think you lose whole prestige class abilities by emulating a different race. Anyone know better?

I believe you're correct. They explicitly qualify for Able Learner which explicitly requires human.

[WhamBamSam]

Does racial emulation allow you to qualify for prestige classes (even if you later stop emulating dwarves?). Seems like a fairly painful RP requirement if not.If you believe that those rules apply to PrCs outside of Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane, then ceasing to emulate a Dwarf would indeed disqualify the changeling from Ironsoul Forgemaster. That's a contested point, which I tend to come down on the other side of. However, there is no such rule (book-specific or otherwise) pertaining to racial substitution levels. So if I wanted to go, say, Changeling Rogue 1/Gnome Incarnate 4/Ironsoul Forgemaster 10 and use Draconic Soulmelds, then I would just emulate Fireblood Dwarves exclusively from level 8 onwards, as there's nothing suggesting I can lose the benefits of Gnome Incarnate by disqualifying myself.


My understanding is that Changeling just qualifies as every race regardless of what race it is currently emulating. Which makes sense, most prestige classes aren't biological requirements they just only seem to be taught to a certain race. So I don't think you lose whole prestige class abilities by emulating a different race. Anyone know better?There's no reason to believe this is the case. Minor Shapechange doesn't do anything of the sort in absence of Racial Emulation any more than Disguise Self does.


I believe you're correct. They explicitly qualify for Able Learner which explicitly requires human.They qualify for Able Learner per this text in the Chameleon adaptation sidebar in Races of Destiny.


If you're using the EBERRON Campaign Setting, the chameleon prestige class should be available to changeling player characters as well as humans and doppelgangers. In this case, the Able Learner feat extends to changelings as well.Emphasis mine. It's not a quality of Changelings that lets them qualify for Able Learner, so much as it's that Able Learner extends to apply to changelings as well as humans.

[Bonzai]

Commoner 1/Incarnate 6/Necrocarnate 13

Feats: Chicken Infested (flaw), Necrocarnum Acolyte, Quick Draw. Rest are up to you, but I would also recommend Heart of Incarnum.

Key Melds: Necrocarnum Vestiments (bound to waist).

Items: Spell component pouch.

Combo: Free action draw, free action drop. Draw chickens, drop them in an adjacent square until you get tired of it. End of round the chickens are killed by your Necrocarnum vestments. Early on you can spend 1 minute per chicken, gain essentia equal to 1/2 your Necrocarnate level for 24 hours. Do this 60 times an hour for however many hours you use to prep in the morning. Later it takes a full round, so you can do it 600 times an hour. Can do the combo in other ways earlier, just need to kill chickens and harvest.

Heart of incarnum gives you HP equal to your essential pool, so you can tank like no ones business. Plus as much essentia as you will ever need.

[The Viscount]

There's really very little reason to stay in Incarnate, compared to switching to a different class: You start off with access to all of the melds you'll ever get, and your essentia capacity depends on character level, not class level.

I am confused with how common this sentiment is. There is a notable reason to stay in incarnate after level one, and it is one that doesn't get much discussion: binds. Every meld has one, and you unlock more as you advance in the class. Not every bind is supremely useful, but binds add enormous amounts of functionality to melds. Many melds have mediocre shaped effects, and you often care about binds. Furthermore, while essentia capacity does expand based on character level, you need to take steps to increase the number of essentia you have. Even the meldshaping classes do not have sufficient essentia to fill up more than half or so of their melds, and it's one reason why necrocarnate is as useful as it is.

As for discussion of necrocarnum zombies, note that you need to bind it to your crown to actually make zombies with the Necrocarnum Circlet. It's only 2 levels of incarnate to do so, but it still means you cannot simply take Shape Soulmeld.

In terms of what to do with incarnates, tanking is a common discussion, since with Astral Vambraces, Vitality Belt, and Necrocarnum Vestments they can become extremely resilient (it's not hard to have more temporary hp than actual HP) and for this reason Crusader is a common dip to add healing and additional strength as a wall of health.

Focused builds aren't too common with Incarnate partially because it is a finicky class that has aims to go in many directions. It's partially because Incarnum is not as simple a system as Vestiges or Maneuvers, and because of its lack of support (Dragon Magic and a web enhancement are it) there's less things to put together. There's also the fact that totemist has stronger focus and does it very well, so there is more optimization focus on it.

That being said, I know Venger has an Incarnate/Totemist/Necrocarnate build that has access to all melds, and something like one short of all binds for all melds. He can explain it better than I can.

[Chronos]

I am confused with how common this sentiment is. There is a notable reason to stay in incarnate after level one, and it is one that doesn't get much discussion: binds.
For which you give up both magic item slots (or feats, for Split Chakra), and whatever class features you could have gotten if you had taken some other class instead. It's not nothing, but it's not enough to justify staying in an incarnum class.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There was a pretty good Incarnate/Crusader/Ironsoul Forgemaster build which is a decent tank. Toss in some Deepstone Warden for even more fun. One of the few builds which made shields viable due to the investment into energy resistance (yes).

[Taveena]

I mean, the thing about Necrocarnum zombies that I found out is that all Necromancers have to come to an agreement with their DM and the rest of their party about how powerful they want to have their critters be. Most necromancers probably SHOULDN'T use Animate Dead on the most powerful creature they can possibly Animate Dead on at once, due to exactly how much they CAN squeeze out of a heavily templated Warbeast or the like. With a Necrocarnate, you can go a little farther, but still be careful you don't break the game too hard.

The Necrocarnum Zombie has a better BAB an reflex save but worse skills than a standard Zombie and no good Will save. It gains another natural attack and some minor DR, but loses all Special Qualities and Special Attacks.

The Warbeast template is very useful, as it gives the DM a price for animals you can buy and reanimate. Ask if you can get a discount for one that's already used (dead).

[The Viscount]

For which you give up both magic item slots (or feats, for Split Chakra), and whatever class features you could have gotten if you had taken some other class instead. It's not nothing, but it's not enough to justify staying in an incarnum class.
You could always buy the special property for the item you want, but your point stands that melds come at a cost. What about essentia, then? You need to get it from somewhere if you're advancing melds. That and binds don't make it necessary to stay in a class, but they make it a possibility.


The Necrocarnum Zombie has a better BAB an reflex save but worse skills than a standard Zombie and no good Will save. It gains another natural attack and some minor DR, but loses all Special Qualities and Special Attacks.

The Warbeast template is very useful, as it gives the DM a price for animals you can buy and reanimate. Ask if you can get a discount for one that's already used (dead).

Zombie loses all special attacks anyway, and it only retains a vague fraction of special qualities. Zombie has no skills at all, so Necrocarnum Zombie is leagues better in that respect. It retains all monster skills. It also has attacks that count as magic for DR, and doesn't have the single action only ability so it can make full attacks. It can also be applied to things with more than 10 HD.

[bogsnes]

Started thinking a bit about a beguiler master skillmonkey build, though there is the issue with soulcaster only giving 2 skill points per level.

There is obviously the possibility of going say Beguiler 4/Incarnate 2/Soulcaster 1/Uncanny Trickster 3/Legacy Champion 9/X 1 though that would lose a bunch of caster levels for the beguiler side (5 to be exact) which might be too painful. Could potentially be the ultimate skillmonkey though with lots of skillpoints, melds to further enhance the skills and spells as well. Could maybe save one of the caster levels by blowing 2 feats (shape soulmeld+open least chakra, though the least chakra feat at least ends up being fairly useless a bit further into the build.

[Chronos]

You need to decide whether you want high-level spells or not. The ultimate skillmonkey would have very little spellcasting at all. Do you just want as close to ultimate as you can get while still having high-level spells?

[WhamBamSam]

Changeling Rogue 2/Cloistered Cleric 1/Tiefling or Gnome Incarnate 2/Chameleon 10/Uncanny Trickster (Progress Incarnate) 3/X 2 or if you don't want to do Chameleon DMM shenanigans Changeling Rogue 3/Tiefling or Gnome Incarnate 2/Chameleon 10/Uncanny Trickster (Incarnate) 3/X 2 might work pretty well for an Incarnum skillmonkey with casting. Maybe make only one Uncanny Trickster level progress Incarnate to squeeze in Umbral Disciple 3 for HiPS.

If your heart is set on Beguiler, I'd say you should endeavor to lose one less caster level at least. I wouldn't even bother with Legacy Champion. You'll be Int based and the difference between 2 and 4 skill points per level isn't really worth the lost caster levels. You probably also don't care about Magical Distillation that much, which . Something like NE Lesser Tiefling Beguiler 4/Tiefling Incarnate 2/Soulcaster 8/Unseen Seer 3/Beguiler +3 would get you 9ths, including an Advanced Learning 9th. If you're dead set on setting caster levels on fire to get out of the Soulcaster's 2+Int skill points, then you could, I suppose go Beguiler 4/Tiefling Incarnate 2/Soulcaster 1/Uncanny Trickster 3/Legacy Champion 6/Soulcaster +2/Unseen Seer 2 or Beguiler 4/Tiefling Incarnate 2/Soulcaster 1/Uncanny Trickster 3/Legacy Champion 6/Soulcaster +1/Beguiler +3 and still get 8ths including an Advanced Learning 8th.

[bogsnes]

Well, I suppose it won't be "the ultimate skillmonkey" though I'm thinking it still would be pretty good at what it does. I guess I'd be willing to sacrifice some caster levels if the spells still would make me a semicompetent caster and not useless at the higher levels. Given that any campaign I'd join likely won't be with a really optimized party so what I'm looking for is more a decently competent build with lots of fun quirks than a second pun-pun or whatnot.

[Taveena]

Zombie loses all special attacks anyway, and it only retains a vague fraction of special qualities. Zombie has no skills at all, so Necrocarnum Zombie is leagues better in that respect. It retains all monster skills. It also has attacks that count as magic for DR, and doesn't have the single action only ability so it can make full attacks. It can also be applied to things with more than 10 HD.

Keeping in mind that an equal-leveled Necromancer can have four zombies of equal HD, it's still a little restrictive. But yeah, Necrocarnum Zombies pretty much HAVE to be done as the massive bruiser due to not having the option of the Zombie Horde. In spite of what the fluff-writers for the Necrocarnate said.

Worth noting is that Necrocarnum Weapon stacks with Incarnate Avatar (Evil) if you ever feel like doing melee incarnate. You can OSTENSIBLY do it as a LN incarnate, too, due to the Necrocarnum Acolyte feat, but seriously, you're torturing souls. You aren't LN. If your DM isn't concerned about the fluff, then that's a pretty effective build that's rules-legal. If you're NE melee then you gotta find more accuracy boosts. Martial Discipline Skillful weapon helps.