Idea for making crossbows stand out from longbows: have them ignore some armor.

[AnonymousPepper]

Don't necessarily need to go full "hit touch AC," though having them do so within Point Blank Shot range wouldn't be bad, I don't think.

What I was thinking was some sort of distance-scaling armor - ignoring an increasing amount of armor+shield+natural armor bonus to AC as you get closer to the target. Could have this value be different for different crossbows; hand crossbows would be the weakest, basically needing to be right in their face to get any, with light crossbows doing somewhat better (as befits their stronger frames and draw strength), heavy crossbows being able to ignore pretty hefty amounts of armor up close and still faring well at mid-range, and great crossbows basically hitting touch against all but the absolute toughest nuts. Repeaters would be treated as their equivalent non-repeating variant.

Sure, longbows historically were capable of penetrating armor weakspots too, but as I recall, crossbows were really good at making holes in armor, and besides, longbows don't really need a buff anyway.

I feel like this is a much less abuse-prone (and more varied) way of making crossbows viable outside of niche builds (in comparison with the ubiquitous composite longbow) than just simply giving them more dice to throw at the enemy or something, and would also give the poor, neglected heavy crossbow a reason to exist (and draw some more attention to the highly-underrated great crossbow).

[Diarmuid]

They're already fairly well differentiated by being simple weapons, having shorter ranges, and having higher crit ranges.

Is there a specific symptom or deficiency that you're trying to overcome?

[Mystral]

Very few weapons in pathfinder and D&D 3.5 are as well differentiated as bows and crossbows.

[Flickerdart]

longbows don't really need a buff anyway.

Longbows are better off than crossbows, but all archery in D&D is phenomenally weak.

[Extra Anchovies]

Is there a specific symptom or deficiency that you're trying to overcome?

I'm going to be discussing Pathfinder, because all archery sucks in 3.5.

Composite bows are better for a few different reasons:

1. Manyshot. A composite-bow build gets one more attack per turn than a crossbow build does.
2. Rapid Reload. A crossbow build has three required feats (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot) to a composite-bow build's two (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot). Using a heavy crossbow also requires Crossbow Mastery.
3. Strength to damage. All composite-bow builds get to add an ability score to damage. A crossbow build can only do this with 5 levels of Bolt Ace Gunslinger.

The first two are the biggest, but the third is still worth noting.

[Diarmuid]

In your listing of longbow feats, you're also forgetting that Martial Weapon proficiency is required.

Yes, many classes get that for free...but that's somewhat part of what differentiates crossbows and longbows. You can use a crossbow on a chassis that doesn't get MWP.

Also, crossbows have a better crit range.

You seem to think that there must be a certain level of parity between the weapon types. You're certainly welcome to that opinion and can make any changes you want in your games.

[icefractal]

In your listing of longbow feats, you're also forgetting that Martial Weapon proficiency is required.

Yes, many classes get that for free...but that's somewhat part of what differentiates crossbows and longbows. You can use a crossbow on a chassis that doesn't get MWP.

Also, crossbows have a better crit range.

You seem to think that there must be a certain level of parity between the weapon types. You're certainly welcome to that opinion and can make any changes you want in your games.The crit is equal - better range, less multiplier, +10% damage either way.

Aside from that, I'm assuming that the OP wants crossbows to be a useful weapon for PCs. Sure, the current crossbow stats might be a reasonable trade-off as far as 1st level NPCs are concerned, but as a PC they don't get used because they're not good. In Pathfinder, not even casters tend to use them, usually having a school/bloodline/domain power that's more effective even when not using actual spells.

As for the partial armor penetration idea, it seems workable, although maybe a little clumsy in play - you need to report the attack result with and without the bonus. Might be more streamlined to say that they do full damage on a normal hit, half damage if it hits touch AC. Half base damage, if you want Rogues to love them. I'm not sure it brings crossbows up to par for a primary warrior type (compared to guns, for example), but it might make them a decent bet for the semi-combatant classes.

[AnonymousPepper]

The crit is equal - better range, less multiplier, +10% damage either way.

Aside from that, I'm assuming that the OP wants crossbows to be a useful weapon for PCs. Sure, the current crossbow stats might be a reasonable trade-off as far as 1st level NPCs are concerned, but as a PC they don't get used because they're not good. In Pathfinder, not even casters tend to use them, usually having a school/bloodline/domain power that's more effective even when not using actual spells.

As for the partial armor penetration idea, it seems workable, although maybe a little clumsy in play - you need to report the attack result with and without the bonus. Might be more streamlined to say that they do full damage on a normal hit, half damage if it hits touch AC. Half base damage, if you want Rogues to love them. I'm not sure it brings crossbows up to par for a primary warrior type (compared to guns, for example), but it might make them a decent bet for the semi-combatant classes.

Don't see why you'd have to report twice? Just implement it like so (sample):

Crossbows and Armor

Treat the enemy's armor bonus to AC as lower against attacks from crossbows at close range (see Table: Crossbow Armor Penetration). The target's AC cannot reach a number lower than its touch AC due to this effect.

Find the range to the target the shooter is attempting to hit, and apply the applicable value for that weapon that is most useful to the shooter at that distance. These penalties to the target do not stack in any way, and only apply for the creature wielding the crossbow. A value of "Touch" indicates that the weapon fully penetrates any amount of armor at that range, no matter how strong, hitting touch AC directly.

Table: Crossbow Armor Penetration



20ft
40ft
60ft
80ft


Hand
2
1
0
0


Light
4
2
1
0


Heavy
Touch
6
4
2


Great
Touch
Touch
6
4



Hand crossbows include hand crossbows and their double variant; sporting crossbows, despite not being one-handed weapons, are also considered hand crossbows for armor penetration purposes due to their low power. Light crossbows include aquatic, light, light double, and light repeating. Heavy crossbows include grapple-firing, heavy, heavy double, and heavy repeating crossbows. Great crossbows only include great crossbows. Winch crossbows cannot penetrate armor.

Size and Crossbow Armor Penetration

Relative size also affects the ability of a crossbow to deal with armor; a smaller weapon generally fires a less massive bolt at a lower speed, with consequentially lower ability to punch through hard materials, and armor made for smaller folk generally has less material to stop a penetrator. For every size category that the size of the weapon exceeds the size of the target beyond the first, treat it as one penetration category higher, and vice versa. If the effective value places the weapon below hand-size, the crossbow does not gain any penetrative ability whatsoever, and for any beyond that of a great crossbow, the weapon will always hit touch AC within 80 feet.

For example, Tordek is wielding a medium great crossbow against a tiny Monstrous Centipede. Because his weapon's size exceeds that of his target by two categories, his great crossbow is treated as being one penetration category higher; since great is already the highest available category, it defaults to automatically hitting touch within the first eighty feet. As a counter-example, Lidda is wielding a pair of small hand crossbows against an ogre. Because her crossbows are two categories lower than the ogre's size, and hand crossbows are already the smallest type, she cannot hope to gain any special penetrative power whatsoever.


Obviously the above is a sample, but that's roughly how I'd implement it. There's some very small bookkeeping, but it's all GM-side.

[Crake]

I actually did something similar for guns in my game. Rather than having them hit touch AC within the first few range increments, i had them ignore a certain amount of AC (specifically armor, shield and natural armor AC, thus not being able to reduce below touch AC) depending on their calibre and have that number be reduced over range increments. I used -20 for a sniper rifle, and -14 for mid calibre revolvers, reducing by 2 per increment, so I could see a crossbow going at something like -8 or so, being able to punch through unenchanted full plate at close range (since isn't that what they were designed for?)

[BWR]

being able to punch through unenchanted full plate at close range (since isn't that what they were designed for?)

I believe it was ease of use (much easier to aim with a crossbow than a self-bow), and you don't need to be so damn strong to use a crossbow as a selfbow, especially those designed for war. And you can load a crossbow and keep it loaded and aimed, ready to fire. Try doing that with a selfbow. Actual penetration power and damage dealt to the target is, I believe (though I may be misinformed) pretty much the same.

[Ashtagon]

The 2nd edition AD&D end-of-series Combat & Tactics book included an option for crossbows to do exactly this.

Firearms, and light/heavy crossbows (not hand crossbows, and not repeating crossbows) benefited from this. At short range, they ignored 5 points of armour-based AC. At medium range, they ignored 2 points of armour-based AC.

In 3.x terms, crossbow short range corresponds to the first three range increments, and medium range to the second three range increments.

[Vhaidara]

Nitpick on your rules/example: centipedes have a natural armor bonus, and your rules only ignore armor bonuses.

I suggest appending it to include shield, natural armor, and armor, the three sources ignored by touch.

[Ashtagon]

Nitpick on your rules/example: centipedes have a natural armor bonus, and your rules only ignore armor bonuses.

I suggest appending it to include shield, natural armor, and armor, the three sources ignored by touch.

Not sure which post you're replying to here. The OP did include all three of those by name. I didn't, but to be fair, I was citing the 2nd edition rule, and those different types hadn't been invented yet when that rule was written.



Size and Crossbow Armor Penetration

Relative size also affects the ability of a crossbow to deal with armor; a smaller weapon generally fires a less massive bolt at a lower speed, with consequentially lower ability to punch through hard materials, and armor made for smaller folk generally has less material to stop a penetrator. For every size category that the size of the weapon exceeds the size of the target beyond the first, treat it as one penetration category higher, and vice versa. If the effective value places the weapon below hand-size, the crossbow does not gain any penetrative ability whatsoever, and for any beyond that of a great crossbow, the weapon will always hit touch AC within 80 feet.


I wouldn't adjust the penetration ability by size class. This is already refelcted by bigger monsters having a higher AC.

[Fizban]

I don't remember where I read it (could have been pathfinder or 5e but I think it was somewhere else), but I liked the idea of making them not provoke attacks of opportunity. Drawing a bow leaves you open, but pulling a trigger does not (and don't go saying you need to aim 'cause there's no way you could fire a bow that fast either). If anything you should be able to take AoOs with a crossbow/gun.

Doesn't actually make it more powerful if the PCs usually dictate the terms, but for a game where the DM isn't shy of ambushing or driving the PCs into a corner then being able to fire point-blank is nice to have.

[Ashtagon]

...If anything you should be able to take AoOs with a crossbow/gun.

Never bring a gun to a knife fight (http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/article/dont-bring-a-gun-to-a-knife-fight/).

tbh, I'd say anyone armed with a launcher-type weapon who is engaged in melee should either immediately drop the weapon, or accept a -2 penalty to AC.

[Vhaidara]

[I]Crossbows and Armor

Treat the enemy's armor bonus to AC as lower against attacks from crossbows at close range (see Table: Crossbow Armor Penetration). The target's AC cannot reach a number lower than its touch AC due to this effect.


That's the line I'm referring to.

[turbo164]

Crossbows also have the advantage of being usable while Prone.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Crossbow Armor Penetration

I think you'll find this overly deadly at lower levels, and still relatively useless at higher levels.

When you only get 1-2 attacks (and only one of them is really reliable), getting a 30% chance greater change to hit (or hitting on a touch attack) is HUGE. As your other attack options become better and better the crossbow begins to be worse and worse.

In short, you're giving them far too much power for a single attack while not actually fixing the issue of the crossbow in the first place.

A Proposed Solution

Increase the range increment to 150 feet: Crossbows could typically fire at longer effective ranges, due both to their greater pull strength and the ability to hold them steady for longer while aiming. Putting it this high may be a bit unrealistic, but also creates a bit more of a difference between the crossbow and the Composite Longbow.

Give them a +2 bonus to attack rolls against creatures with natural or manufactured armor: A +2 is enough to make them better in the hands of an unskilled character -- which is reasonable, given that one of the greatest advantages of a crossbow was the ease of use.

Allow them to fire when threatened without provoking an AoO: Pulling a trigger is much easier to do under stress than drawing back a longbow.


New Suggested Feats

Crossbow Sniper
Prerequisites: BaB +6, Weapon Focus (Crossbow)
Benefit: As a standard action, you may make a single attack with a crossbow. If successful, your crossbow's base damage is multiplied by the number of iterative attacks you would normally get (i.e. if you have a +11 Base Attack Bonus and deal 1d8+5 damage with a +5 Crossbow, your attack instead deals 3d8+5 damage).

****************

With these solutions the crossbow is a much stronger weapon in the hands of an unskilled fighter unable to make several attacks per round, and is a stronger tool for long-range combat where a single, reliable attack is more important than a quantity of attacks. You don't have as overwhelming an issue at the lower levels, and you still have a niche for crossbow combat at higher levels.