Theorycrafting: Arcane Channeling through a thrown enemy(or weapon)

[amdskitzo]

Hey all,

Thinking of an over the top, fun build and I came up with: What if you could channel spells through thrown enemies?

The idea goes with using:
-Duskblade's Arcane Channeling
-Bloodstorm Blade's Thunderous Throw(treats thrown attacks as melee)
-Hulking Hurler's Really Throw Anything or the feat Fling Enemy


Would the above mentioned work in the way I am thinking? If one goes Bloodstorm Blade 4 to get Lightning Ricochet, after throwing an enemy they would allow one to throw them again?

[BowStreetRunner]

Would the above mentioned work in the way I am thinking?

I don't think it does. Arcane Channeling uses a Standard Action to cast a touch spell and deliver it through a weapon as a melee attack. That's the action. Cast a touch spell and deliver it through a weapon as a melee attack. Thunderous throw allows you to treat any ranged attack you make as a melee attack, but arcane channeling does not allow you to make a ranged attack to which Thunderous Throw could then be applied. If TT allowed you to make a ranged attack in place of a melee attack, that would be another matter.


If one goes Bloodstorm Blade 4 to get Lightning Ricochet, after throwing an enemy they would allow one to throw them again?

Other than the Arcane Channeling not working I think the rest of what you are proposing is viable. Grab a goblin, throw him at his buddies, then watch him ricochet back to be thrown again! :smallbiggrin:

[amdskitzo]

[QUOTE=BowStreetRunner;19756811]I don't think it does. Arcane Channeling uses a Standard Action to cast a touch spell and deliver it through a weapon as a melee attack. That's the action. Cast a touch spell and deliver it through a weapon as a melee attack. Thunderous throw allows you to treat any ranged attack you make as a melee attack, but arcane channeling does not allow you to make a ranged attack to which Thunderous Throw could then be applied. If TT allowed you to make a ranged attack in place of a melee attack, that would be another matter.


I can see where your logic is coming from. With basic Arcane Channeling, one has to make a melee attack after spending the standard action to cast the spell. With Thunderous Throw, its a ranged attack first, then is treated as a melee attack. But the Bloodstorm Blade's(from now on referred to as BSB) Thunderous Throw states that it is a swift action to treat all thrown attacks as melee attacks for the turn.

What if the character was Duskblade 13, allowing full attack channeling?

[Bucky]

Other than the Arcane Channeling not working I think the rest of what you are proposing is viable. Grab a goblin, throw him at his buddies, then watch him ricochet back to be thrown again! :smallbiggrin:

Does the goblin's movement provoke attacks of opportunity? Because I want to know if I can grab Improved Combat Reflexes and three goblins and juggle them to death.

[BowStreetRunner]

What if the character was Duskblade 13, allowing full attack channeling?

In this case I think it might work. The rule here is that you can cast a touch spell as part of a full attack action, and the spell affects each target you hit in melee combat that round. The wording here would allow you to declare a full attack action with your ranged attacks and cast the spell as part of that action. Normally you would fail to deliver the spell because you would not hit any targets in melee combat if you were using ranged attacks. However, with the Thunderous Throw feat you can now treat those ranged attacks as melee, successfully fulfilling the requirements of Arcane Channeling.


Does the goblin's movement provoke attacks of opportunity? Because I want to know if I can grab Improved Combat Reflexes and three goblins and juggle them to death.

Only if they move out of a square you threaten while moving.

[WhamBamSam]

Full Attack Channeling doesn't seem to work either. It requires you to hit your target "in melee combat," and despite making melee attacks, your attacks don't meet that definition. From the 3.5 Glossary (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_melee&alpha=)...


Melee combat consists of physical blows exchanged by opponents close enough to threaten one another's space, as opposed to ranged combat.Emphasis mine. That's sort of stupid though, and I'd probably allow it to work if you brought a Duskblade/Bloodstorm Blade to the table.



Also, while Duskblade's Arcane Channeling might not work, Channel Spell from Spellsword or Ordained Champion certainly will, so long as whatever you're planning to throw counts as a melee weapon. If that thing is an enemy, they presumably count as one while you're wielding them as an improvised weapon. You won't even need to bother with Bloodstorm Blade.

[Darrin]

Also, while Duskblade's Arcane Channeling might not work, Channel Spell from Spellsword or Ordained Champion certainly will, so long as whatever you're planning to throw counts as a melee weapon. If that thing is an enemy, they presumably count as one while you're wielding them as an improvised weapon. You won't even need to bother with Bloodstorm Blade.

Ordained Champion works best (unlimited uses). If you add Psychic Warrior or Adept for the move action (via hustle), then we need Improved Grab... Spirit Bear Totem is easiest but only works up to your size. Scaled Horror goes up to size plus one, but needs an aquatic or reptilian subtype. Scorpion's Grasp has no size limitation but requires three feats or a monk dip.

I think you may be right about not needing Bloodstorm Blade. The text in Throw Anything specifies any melee weapon, and Really Throw Anything opens that up to any improvised weapon that the Hulking Hurler can lift.

So... how about:

Anthropomorphic Huge Viper Snake 3/Adept 2/Cleric 3/Monk 1/Hulking Hurler 1/Psychic Theurge 10
1: Power Attack
3: Point Blank Shot
6: Weapon Focus: Meatmissiles
9: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Scorpion's Grasp
12: Practiced Manifester
15: Natural Heavyweight
18: Penetrating Shot

Channel spell + throwing enemies comes online around ECL 10. Everything after that is gravy.

[WhamBamSam]

Ordained Champion works best (unlimited uses). If you add Psychic Warrior or Adept for the move action (via hustle), then we need Improved Grab... Spirit Bear Totem is easiest but only works up to your size. Scaled Horror goes up to size plus one, but needs an aquatic or reptilian subtype. Scorpion's Grasp has no size limitation but requires three feats or a monk dip.

I think you may be right about not needing Bloodstorm Blade. The text in Throw Anything specifies any melee weapon, and Really Throw Anything opens that up to any improvised weapon that the Hulking Hurler can lift.

So... how about:

Anthropomorphic Huge Viper Snake 3/Adept 2/Cleric 3/Monk 1/Hulking Hurler 1/Psychic Theurge 10
1: Power Attack
3: Point Blank Shot
6: Weapon Focus: Meatmissiles
9: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Scorpion's Grasp
12: Practiced Manifester
15: Natural Heavyweight
18: Penetrating Shot

Channel spell + throwing enemies comes online around ECL 10. Everything after that is gravy.I think you're missing something. Ordained Champ levels for starters. Was it supposed to be Anthro-Snake 3/PsyWar 1/Cleric 1/Ordained Champ 3/Monk 1/Hulking Hurler 1/Psychic Theurge 10 or maybe Anthro Snake 3/Ardent 2/Cleric 1/Ordained Champ 3/Monk 1/Hulking Hurler 1/Psychic Theurge 9? You also need Power Attack from somewhere. I guess you could sneak it in by getting PBS from the Elf domain, though this is not a character that screams "Elf" to me. Also you probably need to take Weapon Focus in something else, since you never actually become proficient with measacks. That'll make the War Domain a valid way to pick up the feat though, so that's not such a bad thing.

Also, the -8 Str from Anthropomorphic Giant Constrictor really stings.

Couldn't we just get swift action movement from Travel Devotion? We don't seem to be doing anything else with turn attempts.

There are a number of LA+0 races that can get into Scaled Horror. Aquatic X, Skarn, Lizardfolk, and Changelings off the top of my head. They aren't large, but we might be better off just using polymorph, honestly.

[Darrin]

I think you're missing something. Ordained Champ levels for starters.

Huh. That's... huh. Ok, not sure how I missed that.

Also, I meant Huge Viper Snake, not Constrictor Snake (which you'd think should get some sort of grapple bonus), but they both have -8 Str. I was trying to avoid Anthro Baleen Whale, which I felt I might be overusing, but... looks like Baleen Whale would be much better here (also, better NA and blindsight). How about:

Whale 3/Adept 2/Monk 1/Cleric 1/Ordained Champ 3/Hulking Hurler 1/Psychic Theurge 9

And yes, I'm aware that you can't get proficiency with improvised weapons. I just thought it sounded more interesting than WF: spear or whatever.



Couldn't we just get swift action movement from Travel Devotion? We don't seem to be doing anything else with turn attempts.


You can use that for movement, yes, but the swift action will interfere with hustle, and you need the move action for Channel Spell. Ideally, you'll be standing within melee range, so the combo would look something like:

1) Full round attack, first unarmed strike triggers Scorpion's Grasp.
2) Activate hustle to channel... uh, wow. Clerics don't have a lot of interesting things to channel. Archivist might be better for spell selection.
3) Second iterative attack, throw opponent.



There are a number of LA+0 races that can get into Scaled Horror. Aquatic X, Skarn, Lizardfolk, and Changelings off the top of my head. They aren't large, but we might be better off just using polymorph, honestly.

Hornhead Saurial (Serpent Kingdoms) might work. Ranger spells... hmm. Well, there's tree shape at least. Or maybe aspect of the wolf.

The chameleon template can add the reptilian subtype to any humanoid for only LA +1.

[amdskitzo]

Full Attack Channeling doesn't seem to work either. It requires you to hit your target "in melee combat," and despite making melee attacks, your attacks don't meet that definition. From the 3.5 Glossary (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_melee&alpha=)...

Emphasis mine. That's sort of stupid though, and I'd probably allow it to work if you brought a Duskblade/Bloodstorm Blade to the table.



Also, while Duskblade's Arcane Channeling might not work, Channel Spell from Spellsword or Ordained Champion certainly will, so long as whatever you're planning to throw counts as a melee weapon. If that thing is an enemy, they presumably count as one while you're wielding them as an improvised weapon. You won't even need to bother with Bloodstorm Blade.

Even though, thunderous throw allows you to treat ranged(thrown) attacks as melee? Melee combat consists of an enemy and I threatening each others spaces? By that logic, if I am wielding a reach weapon and move up to hit an enemy(threaten their space), but still be out of reach of them threatening my space(without them moving closer), then I wouldn't be able to user Arcane Channeling because I am not hitting them in melee combat?

[WhamBamSam]

Huh. That's... huh. Ok, not sure how I missed that.

Also, I meant Huge Viper Snake, not Constrictor Snake (which you'd think should get some sort of grapple bonus), but they both have -8 Str. I was trying to avoid Anthro Baleen Whale, which I felt I might be overusing, but... looks like Baleen Whale would be much better here (also, better NA and blindsight). How about:

Whale 3/Adept 2/Monk 1/Cleric 1/Ordained Champ 3/Hulking Hurler 1/Psychic Theurge 9

And yes, I'm aware that you can't get proficiency with improvised weapons. I just thought it sounded more interesting than WF: spear or whatever.I'm now more or less convinced that you mean Ardent, not Adept. Probably take the Substitute Power ACF, so we can get some other things (like Expansion) in on the fun as well.

I thought you were going for the Snake to get Improved Grab, but I guess that's not necessary if you're getting Scorpion's Grasp anyway, and it's only the Constrictor, which has the same Str penalty and a level adjustment. Yeah, the Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale is really good as large races go. We could try Half-Ogre instead, I guess. It's probably not as good, but it does give an extra level to work with. Or Half-Minotaur X if we're willing to use Dragon Magazine.


You can use that for movement, yes, but the swift action will interfere with hustle, and you need the move action for Channel Spell. Ideally, you'll be standing within melee range, so the combo would look something like:

1) Full round attack, first unarmed strike triggers Scorpion's Grasp.
2) Activate hustle to channel... uh, wow. Clerics don't have a lot of interesting things to channel. Archivist might be better for spell selection.
3) Second iterative attack, throw opponent.Ohhh... I see. I misinterpreted what you were using Hustle for. That's nifty.

I'm rather fond of Sha'ir/Ordained Champion, since they're technically divine casters but have the better offensive stuff due to working off the Sor/Wiz list. Qualifying requires either a Cleric dip or Southern Magician to be able to qualify. Shame the Ranger list doesn't have Magic Weapon on it, or it'd dovetail nicely with going Scaled Horror for Improved Grab. Archivist is probably a better option unless we need a Turning Pool or domain power.

If we stick with Cleric, we can trade one of our domains for the Divine Magician ACF, to add stuff like Shivering Touch, Dominate Person, Enervation, or the like to our Cleric list. There are a lot of solid targeted spells in Enchantment and Necromancy, albeit not so many in Divination. Ordained Champion has a restriction on casting time for a channeled spell, unlike Spellsword, so no Geas, but there ought


Hornhead Saurial (Serpent Kingdoms) might work. Ranger spells... hmm. Well, there's tree shape at least. Or maybe aspect of the wolf.

The chameleon template can add the reptilian subtype to any humanoid for only LA +1.Yeah, Ranger casting is kinda lame for this. It won't be worth taking more than 1-2 levels of Scaled Horror.

Amphibious adds the acquatic subtype for LA+0, though that creates the problem of not being able to breathe air. You could slap Necropolitan on top of it I guess.


Even though, thunderous throw allows you to treat ranged(thrown) attacks as melee? Melee combat consists of an enemy and I threatening each others spaces? By that logic, if I am wielding a reach weapon and move up to hit an enemy(threaten their space), but still be out of reach of them threatening my space(without them moving closer), then I wouldn't be able to user Arcane Channeling because I am not hitting them in melee combat?The definition also says "as opposed to ranged combat" which would presumably cover that situation.

Then again "ranged combat" isn't defined in the glossary, just ranged attacks, which have a similar clause of "as opposed to melee attacks." That could mean that you aren't in ranged combat, and are therefore in melee combat any time you make a melee attack.

It's probably best to just ask your DM. The rules are wonky. I'd let you get away with it, but strict RAW is a grey area here.