Thrown Weapon Mastery

[Naez]

Just wondering for Throwing Weapons like Daggers and Throwing axes are they affected by melee weapon mastery or ranged weapon mastery?

[AvatarVecna]

It depends on the thrown weapon in question. If a thrown weapon is a melee weapon that can be thrown (such as a dagger), then it's a melee weapon; if a thrown weapon can't be used effectively in melee (such as darts), then they're ranged weapons. That determines which one is more appropriate. Interestingly, this means that most thrown weapons are melee, meaning they don't get the range increment bonus that Ranged Weapon Mastery gives you.

The above, BTW, is what RAW has to say on the matter; if you're asking for a game, and you want one to apply instead of the other, it shouldn't be that hard to convince your DM to allow you to apply the one that doesn't apply by RAW. Thrown weapon combat sucks enough that I've actually convinced a DM to let me apply both at the same time, although I still needed to spend the feats on them.

[Jowgen]

It's debatable. If you accept the Rules Compendium, the passage below suggests you apply both. Otherwise, it's an argument whether melee/ranged is inherent in the weapon (as per the tables and range increment) or determined by how the weapon is used.


Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that aren’t effective in melee. Some melee weapons can be thrown, bridging these two categories.

[AvatarVecna]

It's debatable. If you accept the Rules Compendium, the passage below suggests you apply both. Otherwise, it's an argument whether melee/ranged is inherent in the weapon (as per the tables and range increment) or determined by how the weapon is used.

That rules compendium quote is either stating "Thrown weapons, or projectile weapons that can't be used effectively in melee" or "thrown/projectile weapons that can't be used effectively in melee"; under the first interpretation of the grammatically confusing sentence, both can apply; under the second, only one can apply, and which one applies depends on whether or not the thrown weapon in question can be used effectively in melee or not.

[Socratov]

It's debatable. If you accept the Rules Compendium, the passage below suggests you apply both. Otherwise, it's an argument whether melee/ranged is inherent in the weapon (as per the tables and range increment) or determined by how the weapon is used.

one could argue that melee weapons are weapons that can be used in melee and ranged weapons are weapons with a range increment. Which would make a dagger both, a dart ranged and a greatsword melee. I can't quote these as RAW, but it wouldn't be all too far fetched to assume this to be sensible. It also would be wrong to assume that ranged and melee would be opposite categories. I mean, on your character sheet you can say wether a weapon is ranged or not, what its range increment is and what its type is.

[Jowgen]

one could argue that melee weapons are weapons that can be used in melee and ranged weapons are weapons with a range increment. Which would make a dagger both, a dart ranged and a greatsword melee. I can't quote these as RAW, but it wouldn't be all too far fetched to assume this to be sensible. It also would be wrong to assume that ranged and melee would be opposite categories. I mean, on your character sheet you can say wether a weapon is ranged or not, what its range increment is and what its type is.

I do personally that that, if a melee weapon has a range increment as per its table, it means that the weapon itself is both melee and ranged, making it a RAW-legal benefactor of both melee and ranged weapon benefiting effects. Melee/ranged attack benefiting effects are still limited by how you're using the weapon though.

But as I said, it's debateable, and dependent upon a DM whether he is okay with e.g. you mastering the stabbing aspect of a dagger allowing you to also throw it more effectively and vice-versa.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'd say either could apply. It's not like thrown weapons are overpowered, anyway. (I guess they can be w/ Boomerang Daze, but IMO that's a problem w/ Aptitude weapons, not the feat)

[Curmudgeon]

The category a weapon is in is defined by its use, not its position on the weapons table. If you're using a dagger for a melee attack it's a melee weapon. If you're throwing the dagger it's instead a ranged weapon. It's not in both categories simultaneously, nor does it retain the category from the weapons table when you're using it differently than initially categorized.

So, you apply Ranged Weapon Mastery only when you're using a weapon for a ranged attack, and you apply Melee Weapon Mastery only when you're using a weapon for a melee attack.

[SkipSandwich]

Further mucking up the categories are Feats like Throw Anything and the Throwing weapon enchantment. Given that, I would go with Curmudgeon's interpretation above, you use the Mastery appropriate for how you are currently using the weapon.

[AvatarVecna]

Further mucking up the categories are Feats like Throw Anything and the Throwing weapon enchantment. Given that, I would go with Curmudgeon's interpretation above, you use the Mastery appropriate for how you are currently using the weapon.

Not the mention the Thunderous Throw ability of the Bloodstorm Blade, where you use your melee attack roll to make a ranged attack with a melee or ranged weapon of your choice. Thrown weapon combat is so all-over-the-place.