Roy Doesn't Deserve To Be The Leader

[Kruploy]

First, he is dumb. He got fooled by Durkon so easily. A small smile, a joke or two and the vampire had this supposed saviour of the world wrapped around his finger. Let's not forget how he challenged an epic level lich on his own and got massacred, leaving his team leaderless either.

Secondly, he is overly trusting. He has been keeping a chaotic evil psychopath like Belkar with him without any sort of restraint on him to keep him in check. How many innocents died because Roy couldn't be bothered to keep his supposed follower or prisoner under control?

Finally, he is weak. He is a high level fighter when his adversaries are even higher leveled casters. Yet despite this obvious disadvantage he rushes headlong into his fights without formulating a proper plan. We saw this before when he jumped on Xykon's dragon and we see it now as he attacks Durkon. How is he supposed to defeat Xykon when most people think he won't be able to handle Durkon?

Why is this guy the leader again?

[martianmister]

Well, he's the best they could get.

[AvatarVecna]

Belkar makes a solid case for Roy being the leader here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0881.html); Roy may have some serious flaws, but he's the one relatively sane man leading this group of misfits and crazy people. It's a wonderful "here's why you suck" speech that somehow serves as an inspirational speech as well.

[Mad Humanist]

First, he is dumb. He got fooled by Durkon so easily. A small smile, a joke or two and the vampire had this supposed saviour of the world wrapped around his finger. Let's not forget how he challenged an epic level lich on his own and got massacred, leaving his team leaderless either.

Secondly, he is overly trusting. He has been keeping a chaotic evil psychopath like Belkar with him without any sort of restraint on him to keep him in check. How many innocents died because Roy couldn't be bothered to keep his supposed follower or prisoner under control?

Finally, he is weak. He is a high level fighter when his adversaries are even higher leveled casters. Yet despite this obvious disadvantage he rushes headlong into his fights without formulating a proper plan. We saw this before when he jumped on Xykon's dragon and we see it now as he attacks Durkon. How is he supposed to defeat Xykon when most people think he won't be able to handle Durkon?

Why is this guy the leader again?


Roy is leader becase he hired the others. There was nothing in the hiring agreement that said anybody could challenge for leadership or call for a vote of no confidence or anything like that. If someone does not like Roy's leadership they can talk to him. If Roy agreed to letting go of the leadership or something that would be one thing. But in general people can either accept his leadeship or leave.

And actually at times he had brilliant leadeship such as in the big battle with Tarquin. He does make mistakes but in story-terms he is meant to be a flawed hero.

All that said one way out of the current story-arc I envisaged is that the Godsmoot would impose the High Priest of Hel as the leader of the party, as a condition to permitting the party to deal with Xykon. my reasoning was that I expected Durkon to remain a vampire for the whole book, but this looks less likely now.

[Kish]

How is he supposed to defeat Xykon when most people think he won't be able to handle Durkon?
This is a lot like asking, "How is he supposed to defeat Xykon when he wears blue armor?" Only one person's opinion on whether he'll be able to handle Durkon actually matters to his ability to do so. That person is Rich Burlew.

[Kantaki]

Okay... I'm not sure we are reading the same comic.

Why is he willing to trust vampire Durkon?
Well, Durkon is his best friend and most people give their friends the benefit of doubt. Until „Durkon” gave him a reason to distrust him Roy was willing to treat him as the same person he knew. Especially because there was no way for Roy to know that Durkon isn't Durkon.

Why does he keep Belkar around? Well, so far there was no prison that could realistically hold the little guy, killing him would go against Roy’s alignment and believe it or not he does keep Belkar in check.

And why does he keep charging Xykon (and now Durkon)? Because he is a hero - meaning he won't let others take the risk - and the most capable member of the Order to do so. He dedicated his entire build to fight (undead) casters - exactly what he is doing right now.

And honestly? Who else could lead the ragtag bunch of misfits that is the Order of the Stick?

[theasl]

I honestly can't tell if OP is trolling or not...

[factotum]

OK. If Roy doesn't deserve to be the leader, who does? The only one of the group who actively distrusted Durkula was Belkar, but you don't seem to be a fan of him either considering your comments about him. We already saw what a pig's ear of things the rest of them made when they were split up with Roy dead in "Don't Split the Party".

If it's your opinion that only a perfect character who makes no mistakes and sees through all lies can be the leader, sorry, I think you're reading the wrong comic--there is no such character in this one on *any* side.

[grandpheonix]

Pretty sure its trolling. All of these questions HAVE been answered in the comic.

[Ornithologist]

A leader isn't necessarily one who always makes competent decisions, or who never makes mistakes. A leader is someone who can get get others into a group and have them do more than any of them could on their own.

Roy is the leader, because he has a True neutral elf, 2 chaotic good humans, a chatoic evil halfling, and a lawful good evil dwarf working towards the same goal. He also take responsibilities on the groups failings. Thats why he leaped into combat with Durkon.

Don't forget Durkula was being decpetive on the vampire spirit, and until the reveal the board was split almost 50/50 on wether or not it was still Durkon. And the board has had more time, more space, and as much personal investment on this issue as Roy did well.

[zimmerwald1915]

Pretty sure its trolling. All of these questions HAVE been answered in the comic.
It's trolling. Pretty much all these talking points came straight from Miko.

[BaronOfHell]

OP aside. It's important that Roy makes mistakes and learn from those mistakes. It shows growth and makes it more realistic that he'll one day be able to best the tasks ahead of him.

[Sylian]

First, he is dumb.Not really.


How many innocents died because Roy couldn't be bothered to keep his supposed follower or prisoner under control?0 (unless I'm forgetting someone).


How is he supposed to defeat Xykon when most people think he won't be able to handle Durkon?Probably with teamwork.


Why is this guy the leader again?Because he alone has the qualities needed to lead. Haley, Elan, Durkon, V, and Belkar do not. Roy is probably the third most powerful character in combat (V and Durkon beating him), and he possesses a good balance between Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma.

[zimmerwald1915]

0 (unless I'm forgetting someone).
No one remembers Belkar's guard in Azure City.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

First, it's hardly like anyone else could lead better. Vaarsuvius could possibly pass your first problem with Roy (though given the ridiculous standards you seem to have to declare someone "not dumb" that seems unlikely), but has killed many more innocents than Belkar has. Second, power level has very little to do with leadership capabilites.

[Nightcanon]

No one remembers Belkar's guard in Azure City.

Not Roy's responsibility. Both he and Belkar were in the custody of the Sapphire Guard at the time. There was the gnome Belkar killed when travelling with Haley (when Roy was dead).
Between Roy and Mr Scruffy and the Mark of Justice, Belkar's murder sprees have been severely curtailed.

[Kantaki]

No one remembers Belkar's guard in Azure City.

He was in Azure City’s custody when that happened not in Roy’s.

[Nightcanon]

It has nothing to do with deserving.

Roy meets the single necessary and sufficient criterion to be a leader: people follow him

Initially it was because they were under contract, but he ripped those up months ago and yet, here he is. Leading. With followers.

[martianmister]

0 (unless I'm forgetting someone)

These goblins? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0115.html) I'm not sure.
Also these. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0133.html)

[Keltest]

These goblins? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0115.html) I'm not sure.
Also these. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0133.html)

Technically, they weren't under contract at that point.

[Sylian]

No one remembers Belkar's guard in Azure City.Oh, but I did remember it, I just don't think that's on Roy. The Azure guard didn't properly search him before dumping him in a cell without anti-magic, that's hardly Roy's fault. Roy couldn't really do much since he was locked up.


These goblins? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0115.html) I'm not sure.
Also these. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0133.html)I'll give you the goblins (though we don't know whether they count as "innocent", and would it be reasonable to expect Roy to prevent Belkar from murdering them?)

The barbarians? I don't think it's reasonable to blame Roy for that. Belkar might very well have joined the barbarian guild on his own, and Roy can't be expected to follow Belkar everywhere he goes.

[Shining Wrath]

Roy is the leader because everyone else in the party looks to him to make decisions when deciding must be done.

[Throknor]

No one remembers Belkar's guard in Azure City.

What about all the guards Haley killed in Bleedingham (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0722.html)?

To paraphrase Geico, "When you're a guard in a story you get killed during the protagonist's escape attempt. It's what you do."

It pretty much parallel's Roy's "Resisting arrest" - "It was an illegitimate authority". If Miko had been killed during the fight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html) Roy might have felt bad about it but probably in a vague way. He didn't even really care about the guard that was killed and was perfectly happy to manipulate Belkar's sentence for it such that he'd do no time whatsoever for it. We might be back to judging Roy but if the Lawful-Good Hero doesn't care then I'm not sure why I should.

I've always felt the sentence handed down was ridiculous. Belkar was dragged down to the city and imprisoned and then tried against laws he never agreed to follow by a single man without representation. In my eyes it was no different from the bandits attempt to hang everyone; no one cried about the dead executioner (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0164.html) there.

I'm not saying he wasn't a jerk; but about the only senseless killing I can think of is the gnome. And maybe the Oracle, but at least he actually had a reason instead of just throwing a dagger at a random stranger. Not much of a reason in our eyes maybe, but it would actually have been a valid one to society as recently as the old west.

[Keltest]

What about all the guards Haley killed in Bleedingham (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0722.html)?

To paraphrase Geico, "When you're a guard in a story you get killed during the protagonist's escape attempt. It's what you do."

It pretty much parallel's Roy's "Resisting arrest" - "It was an illegitimate authority". If Miko had been killed during the fight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html) Roy might have felt bad about it but probably in a vague way. He didn't even really care about the guard that was killed and was perfectly happy to manipulate Belkar's sentence for it such that he'd do no time whatsoever for it. We might be back to judging Roy but if the Lawful-Good Hero doesn't care then I'm not sure why I should.

I've always felt the sentence handed down was ridiculous. Belkar was dragged down to the city and imprisoned and then tried against laws he never agreed to follow by a single man without representation. In my eyes it was no different from the bandits attempt to hang everyone; no one cried about the dead executioner (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0164.html) there.

I'm not saying he wasn't a jerk; but about the only senseless killing I can think of is the gnome. And maybe the Oracle, but at least he actually had a reason instead of just throwing a dagger at a random stranger. Not much of a reason in our eyes maybe, but it would actually have been a valid one to society as recently as the old west.

That would be why Belkar's charges were brought down to manslaughter. his escape attempt was reasonable. He was still charged because his actions were excessive.

[Windscion]

While I agree that Roy has done nothing to deserve the punishment of having to lead the OotS, the fact is that he volunteered.

[AvatarVecna]

While I agree that Roy has done nothing to deserve the punishment of having to lead the OotS, the fact is that he volunteered.

Both your post and your signature made me spit-take. Have an internet, my good person.

[Cizak]

There was an entire book about why Roy is the leader. You may have read it, it's called "Don't Split the Party".

[jidasfire]

Wow, even forum threads are succumbing to clickbait syndrome now.

"12 reasons you won't believe Xykon is the real hero of Order of the Stick!"

See, I can say needlessly provocative and inaccurate things too.

[Commander672]

Hold the Phone. Didn't we get an entire book more or less dedicated to why Roy is necessary to lead the group? I could have sworn their was a long, Roy-less period of time where the other protagonists, when left to their own devices, did absolutely nothing but wallow around in their own personal side-quests that did jack squat to stop Xylon (But the character development! Oh the Character development! I loved those arcs!).

It's almost like this question was already answered.

[Nightcanon]

So we have demonstrated that Belkar kills for the fun of it, pretty much every chance he gets: would-be barbarians, goblins who are trying to surrender, gnome merchants, kobold oracles, dirt-farmers. In Origin of PCs he breaks back into jail to kill his guard after V inadvertently springs him. He would have been perfectly happy if the pile of bodies in 439 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html) had been Azurite civillians rather than hobgoblins. Yet in several months of travelling with the Order, Roy has ensured that he barely kills anyone 'innocent'.Roy's reasoning in 489 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html) is spot on. V is smarter than Roy, but has managed to commit untold murders of innocents, and comes to Roy for counsel. Durkon is wiser and somehow got turned into undead. Power isn't leadership.

[Keltest]

Wow, even forum threads are succumbing to clickbait syndrome now.

"12 reasons you won't believe Xykon is the real hero of Order of the Stick!"

See, I can say needlessly provocative and inaccurate things too.

I believe the OP already made that thread. Someone has the Giant's response to it in their sig.

[Remedy]

The two potential best leaders in this comic strip got killed for precisely the things that make them good leaders, so it's no wonder Roy is the most competent person left to deal with it.

[The_Weirdo]

Well, no one else seems to even want to take charge...

[Sloanzilla]

really? A response to this thread was needed besides "meh"?

[The_Weirdo]

really? A response to this thread was needed besides "meh"?

I'm BORED. :smalltongue:

[skim172]

He's the leader because there no one else in the party wants to be. Elan wants to be the goofball. Belkar wants to be the weapon - point him at the enemy and shoot. Vaarsuvius has no interest in leading (and doesn't handle people very well anyway). Durkon has a solid, stable personality, but seems more content as his position as an adviser. And while Haley has been seen to be an able leader in the past, she has strong self-doubts about her ability to lead and is unwilling to take the responsibility.

So, Roy is the leader by default. (Also, he was the guy who started the party). He's not the best, strongest, wisest, most stable, or kindest of leaders - but he's what they've got.

Which is really applicable to the party as a whole. They're not the best, strongest, smartest, most virtuous, or the most heroic, and there are probably others who'd be better at this whole "world-saving" thing. But this is who we've got and there's no one else to do it.

[Bird]

The two potential best leaders in this comic strip got killed for precisely the things that make them good leaders, so it's no wonder Roy is the most competent person left to deal with it.
Shojo and Ho Thanh?

[ti'esar]

Wow, even forum threads are succumbing to clickbait syndrome now.

"12 reasons you won't believe Xykon is the real hero of Order of the Stick!"

See, I can say needlessly provocative and inaccurate things too.

...I already don't believe Xykon is the real hero of Order of the Stick.

(But seriously, if I had been eating something at the time, seeing that post would have made me choke on it. I'd ask to sig it if this forum allowed longer signatures.)

[SaintRidley]

I remember a thread where you verged pretty close to this once before.

This one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?326571-Roy-is-soft&p=16828821#post16828821), perhaps?

If not entirely on the same topic, it seems instructive that the way that thread (and others) went might be the way this one goes as well. Worth considering, at any rate.

[Porthos]

I remember a thread where you verged pretty close to this once before.

This one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?326571-Roy-is-soft&p=16828821#post16828821), perhaps?

If not entirely on the same topic, it seems instructive that the way that thread (and others) went might be the way this one goes as well. Worth considering, at any rate.

Interestingly enuf, that thread was created BEFORE the reveal of "Durkon" to the audience. Not saying it's perfectly instructive since we later saw the Belkar/"Durkon" shenanigans (I am discounting the "Durkon"/Gnome Priest one since Roy was oblivious to it). Still, it shows just where the forum was at the time.

[Cavenskull]

No one remembers Belkar's guard in Azure City.

Others have already pointed out that Belkar was not under Roy's custody at that time, but I'd like to add that it shows why Roy has been needed to keep Belkar in check. The Azure City guard failed to keep Belkar from escaping, and even a paladin as powerful as Miko had so much trouble trying to recapture him, that Belkar actually had to wait for her to regain consciousness in order to keep the pursuit going. For that matter, the Azure City guard couldn't keep Haley from picking the lock on her cell, and in a different city even Elan managed to figure out a way to escape from a jail cell with the help of Thog. When half the party has proven itself capable of breaking out of jail cells (Haley's even gone so far as to break INTO them), how is Roy supposed to be sure that there's a legal system capable of keeping Belkar in check?

[Enran]

I'm inclined to side with the Deva's statistics on this one: No force short of death will stop Belkar from doing some amount of Evil, but Roy is keeping it down by several hundred kilonazis through his actions. Sure, maybe he's not doing everything absolutely perfectly in that regard, but if you expect absolute perfection of action from anyone, you're not going to find it in any comic strip that knows how to make good, real-feeling characters... Much less this one, which is frankly more pessimistic in that regard than most.

[Kruploy]

I remember a thread where you verged pretty close to this once before.

This one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?326571-Roy-is-soft&p=16828821#post16828821), perhaps?

If not entirely on the same topic, it seems instructive that the way that thread (and others) went might be the way this one goes as well. Worth considering, at any rate.

Man, I forgot I made that. The forum remembers I guess?

Regardless, I would like to note that I right then too. Trusting Durkon turned out to be the wrong move.

Anyway, I would like to reply to everyone but I don't want to make a wall of text so I will just respond to some general ideas.

First of all, I will give that out of all in the party, Roy is the best suited for the leadership role but that just shows what a miserable group that the Oots is. Not much of complement. I guess the title of this topic should have been "Roy doesn't deserve to be the hero."

Secondly, I disagree about Belkar. Are you guys telling me that in a world where resurrection is possible and nerds can blow up stuff with their minds, there are no authorities that can restrain a stupid, stab happy halfling? Keep in mind that having Belkar close means sleeping with him around every night. Who in their right mind would sleep around a free Belkar?

Finally, I am fine with Roy being a fighter. What I don't like is his lack of forward planning before jumping into battles.

Oh and I'm not trolling and as much as I respect Miko, I am not her.

[Vinyadan]

"Roy doesn't deserve to be the hero."


You don't deserve to be the hero, you just act like one when it's needed and you become one. :smalltongue:

[Nightcanon]

Sure there are ways to get rid of the threat that Belkar poses. It's just that disintegrate/ gust of wind isn't avery Lawful Good approach to crime prevention.
As to Roy sometimes acting without thinking, he's reacting to events as they present themselves. This a what heroes do.
You seem to be judging Roy as if he was a PC in a TO game, rather than a character in a story. If your contention is that the Order of the Stick would be far more effective if it were comprised of 6 LE full casters who between them could predict what was going to happen with perfect accuracy and respond with no more ethical discussion than 'this supports our mutually agreed aims', then you're dead right. But that ain't what this story is about.

[zimmerwald1915]

You don't deserve to be the hero, you just act like one when it's needed and you become one. :smalltongue:
More to the point, it's not really up for discussion. Roy is at the center of this story, the Giant's made that abundantly clear, and it's not going to change.

[Cizak]

First of all, I will give that out of all in the party, Roy is the best suited for the leadership role but that just shows what a miserable group that the Oots is.

Ding ding ding! You found the point of the story!

[LuisDantas]

0 (unless I'm forgetting someone).


That is arguable and relies IMO on whether it would be possible to toss Belkar in a prison somewhere and expect him to remain there.

Belkar gets a trainload more forgiveness than he earned. He killed a gnome called Solt Lorkyurg in 539 just because, for instance.

The two potential best leaders in this comic strip got killed for precisely the things that make them good leaders, so it's no wonder Roy is the most competent person left to deal with it.

I wonder who you are talking about. Roy and Redcloak are the two potential best leaders in the comic IMO. But Redcloak wasn't killed and you seem to be excluding Roy. Did you mean Jirix?

[Kantaki]

That is arguable and relies IMO on whether it would be possible to toss Belkar in a prison somewhere and expect him to remain there.

Belkar gets a trainload more forgiveness than he earned. He killed a gnome called Solt Lorkyurg in 539 just because, for instance.

Yes, Belkar killed that Gnome, but he was under Haley's custody when it happened and he had good reasons to do so.

He thought Solt was part of a evil conspiracy and he wanted the gnome's chocolate bar.

[Onyavar]

First of all, I will give that out of all in the party, Roy is the best suited for the leadership role but that just shows what a miserable group that the Oots is. Not much of complement. I guess the title of this topic should have been "Roy doesn't deserve to be the hero."

Aside the fact that the story is about the Order of the Stick, and the roster hasn't change since comic 0001, and we as readers are probably more interested in seeing the order suffer before they succeed, and having a new and efficient roster would be a complete change of direction... Letting all the meta reasons aside:
At the end of book 4 was the last time when they had a realistic chance to form better, decent groups. Available persons: O-Chul, Celia, Lien, and the rest of the order, plus any completely new persons that might be under Hinjo's command and who he urgently needs to establish his colony.
Celia isn't an adventurer, and the Order was _already_ a sworn in team. (As much as Hinjo was concerned). Hinjo could have suggested to make O-Chul the leader, and O-Chul is the only character besides Roy that I believe is a decent leader. However, the paladins were a no-go to take with them, because Roy expected to meet the Draketooths. Also, O-Chul would have goofed up in other ways than Roy, that is pretty certain. Just imagine a paladin like O-Chul walking into the Empire of Blood.

There have been very few occasions where the order seriously could have tried recruiting, but there also have to be funds to hire higher level characters. Nobody on the Western Continent was standing in a line to save the world for free, I guess.


Secondly, I disagree about Belkar. Are you guys telling me that in a world where resurrection is possible and nerds can blow up stuff with their minds, there are no authorities that can restrain a stupid, stab happy halfling? Keep in mind that having Belkar close means sleeping with him around every night. Who in their right mind would sleep around a free Belkar?

So you say Belkar has to go. For the same reason, Roy should have killed Durkon on sight and should have fired V as soon as V confessed the familicide. The replacements are waiting in the tavern around the corner, right?


Finally, I am fine with Roy being a fighter. What I don't like is his lack of forward planning before jumping into battles.
Where has he done that? Show us your examples of his supposed recklessness, and I'm sure the entire board will be able to explain why he always went with the best tactical decisions since his resurrection, in many cases even snap-like assessments of a given situation and then doing the right thing with what he has available. Yeah, he is sometimes a bit overconfident in his abilities - just remember him jumping the dragon - but he learned from that.


Oh and I'm not trolling and as much as I respect Miko, I am not her.

Ah... you expect that Miko would be a finer leader than Roy? There are a dozen reasons why not. Or do you think Wrecan would be better, although we know VERY little of him? Do you suggest Tarquin? Or Aarindarius? Hinjo? O-Chul?

Starting with strip 1000, which character from the Stickverse would you nominate to lead the OotS, and which measures and replacements should he undertake to whip the order into an effective battle group, given that sending/resurrection/teleportation of the willing candidates are of no concern?

[factotum]

He thought Solt was part of a evil conspiracy and he wanted the gnome's chocolate bar.

No, he just wanted the gnome's donkey to pull the cart--he didn't find the chocolate bar until after he'd killed him. As for the conspiracy thing, pretty sure you just made that up because there's nothing in the comic to even suggest at it.

[Keltest]

No, he just wanted the gnome's donkey to pull the cart--he didn't find the chocolate bar until after he'd killed him. As for the conspiracy thing, pretty sure you just made that up because there's nothing in the comic to even suggest at it.

Given Belkar's attempted justification for what he did and his rather low intelligence, it would not surprise me if he did think the gnome was part of a conspiracy.

[Kantaki]

No, he just wanted the gnome's donkey to pull the cart--he didn't find the chocolate bar until after he'd killed him. As for the conspiracy thing, pretty sure you just made that up because there's nothing in the comic to even suggest at it.

True, his reasoning was that this would be one gnome less for the resistance to fight. I only remembered the candy and that Belkar had some ridiculous excuse for the kill.

i think even the donkey (that I had forgotten) was just an afterthought.

[zimmerwald1915]

So you say Belkar has to go. For the same reason, Roy should have killed Durkon on sight and should have fired V as soon as V confessed the familicide. The replacements are waiting in the tavern around the corner, right?
Nah, the same logic doesn't hold with respect to Durkon. Unlike Belkar and V, until strip 1,000 he hadn't done anything questionable. As for V, Roy did say he wouldn't stop her leaving if she wanted.

[Malfarian]

I stand with Roy.

Roy 2016!

[137beth]

Guys, it's obvious: the MitD should be the party leader. Roy has a decent wisdom and intelligence, yes, but the MitD is a goddess of wisdom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?293047-MitD-007-GoldenEyes-%28Please-Read-the-First-Post%29&p=16480896&viewfull=1#post16480896), making her a better leader. Plus, she is clearly more powerful than anyone in the Order, and she has more personal experience with Xykon and Redcloak.
Or maybe Redcloak's niece should be the party leader?

This entire post is sarcastic and if you couldn't figure that out now you know.

[ellindsey]

"Deserve"

As if being the leader of this group, under these conditions is a reward.

Or did the OP mean that Roy hadn't done anything bad enough to deserve being punished with this job?

[Remedy]

I wonder who you are talking about. Roy and Redcloak are the two potential best leaders in the comic IMO. But Redcloak wasn't killed and you seem to be excluding Roy. Did you mean Jirix?
Well, your confusion is birthed from a difference in opinion, then. :smallsmile: My picks were somewhat disturbingly guessed with complete accuracy by another poster: Thanh and Shojo. Shojo is miles ahead of Thanh too, but that's just because this comic has a sickeningly realistic dearth of actually competent leaders. Redcloak is really one of the better competitors for Thanh's spot, but I'm trying to think of people who would ever oppose the bad guys, and given that Redcloak probably doesn't want to oppose himself...

[Cizak]

Yeah, Shojo was great. How he manipulated his entire following and got his two closest subordinates to discuss whether he should be imprisoned or executed really shows his leadership skills.

[Remedy]

Yeah, Shojo was great. How he manipulated his entire following and got his two closest subordinates to discuss whether he should be imprisoned or executed really shows his leadership skills.
I hate to be so blunt, but Shojo's manipulation of his following was, in fact, some pretty fantastic leadership in action. More what he did with it than the manipulation itself, but still.

His two closest subordinates discussing whether to execute or imprison him was more a result of poor Spot/Listen checks than poor leadership. :smalltongue:

[neriractor]

Yeah, Shojo was great. How he manipulated his entire following and got his two closest subordinates to discuss whether he should be imprisoned or executed really shows his leadership skills.

Hey, Shojo probably ran the city like a paladin would until they tried to murder him and then he did the only thing he could to save the world and stop his city from being taken by some jackass-evil noble like Kubota, because lets face it Hinjo wouldn't make it a year pass the dead of Shojo unless it was part of some noble's scheme for power.

Edit: just got ninja'ed

[Keltest]

Hey, Shojo probably ran the city like a paladin would until they tried to murder him and then he did the only thing he could to save the world and stop his city from being taken by some jackass-evil noble like Kubota, because lets face it Hinjo wouldn't make it a year pass the dead of Shojo unless it was part of some noble's scheme for power.

Edit: just got ninja'ed

Hinjo has class levels in a combat oriented class though, remember? He would probably fare slightly better against an assassin than an Aristocrat would.

[Porthos]

I guess the title of this topic should have been "Roy doesn't deserve to be the hero."

Why, exactly?

Because he makes mistakes?

Because he isn't perfect?

Because he is willing to trust in his own judgement?

Because he is also willing to be convinced by others at times?

Because he was in the exact right circumstance to be manipulated by best friend in the world?

Because he's not willing to, and I quote, slit Belkar's throat in the middle of the night?

Because he made a judgement call in that, of the authorities that were ACTUALLY available, he felt none were up to snuff in containing Belkar?

Gosh. Well, as I said in another thread recently, I guess Roy IS guilty about "not deserving" to be a hero. Allow me to quote in full:


I blame Roy for not being perfect.
I blame Roy for having exploitable flaws.
I blame Roy for not being omniscient.
I blame Roy for trying to make the best of a bad situation.
I blame Roy for not trusting the judgement of someone he has little reason to trust.
I blame Roy for letting his angst over his best friends death color future actions.
I blame Roy for not letting his doubts about "Durkon" make him paranoid about the whole situation.

And, finally, I blame Roy for being human and manipulatable by someone who was in the best position possible to push his buttons.

For all of the above, Roy is in fact guilty. Guilty of not being perfect and not forcing a resolution about the "Durkon" situation as soon as possible.

Roy made a mistake. A very huge mistake that he is almost certainly gonna pay for in more ways than one.

But is it something that he can be "blamed for"? Given who Roy is, and given his prior actions, I'm not sure what COULD have been expected of him in this situation.

The fact of the matter is, he didn't give "Durkon" carte blanche. He did try to investigate just how bad "Durkon" might be. He did take some precautions in case "Durkon" turned evil. It just turned out, he didn't take enough.

But however much we may blame Roy, and however much criticism of his actions can be valid (and make no mistake there are valid criticisms to make), I suspect Roy will blame himself more.

...

Either that or flip on a dime and go into Righteous Fury of One Betrayed Mode, take your pick. :smalltongue:

Huh. Turns out it was both. :smalltongue:

Anywho, if what you want is a Judge Dredd figure for your heroes, then, no, Roy doesn't "deserve" to be a hero. If you want a "Boring Invincible Hero", then, again no, Roy isn't your cup of tea.

And, finally, if you don't want someone with obvious flaws who is yet trying to overcome them while trying their best to help everyone around them, once more with feeling, Roy isn't for you.

But if you want someone who will try their best to do what is right, one who is willing to risk their very life to help innocents around them, and one who is spending a better chunk of their life trying to, LITERALLY, Save the World?

Well, gosh again, that sounds like the very definition of the word "hero" to me. :smallsmile:

That said person is also trying to grow as a person is in fact what seals the deal. Roy is not just trying to help those around him. Roy is also trying to become a better person. That last bit might, just might, make him even a better hero when all is said and done. :smallwink:

[Remedy]

Hinjo has class levels in a combat oriented class though, remember? He would probably fare slightly better against an assassin than an Aristocrat would.
True, but at least from the perspective of good leadership, being able to make the right choices without people sending assassins is generally better in the long run than making the right choices and successfully sitting alive on your throne the next morning with assassin bodies strewn about. In particular because of the politics of change; the nobles kept Shojo around because they thought he was easy to manipulate, and if something didn't go their way it could be reasonably assumed to be the work of another noble and their efforts could still bear fruit in the future. If you just beat down the nobles when they disagree rather than putting up a facade of acquiescing to some demand or another, even if you're doing the right thing, you prove to them the futility of their efforts to change things through political means, and that's a ripe recipe for rebellion.

[Keltest]

True, but at least from the perspective of good leadership, being able to make the right choices without people sending assassins is generally better in the long run than making the right choices and successfully sitting alive on your throne the next morning with assassin bodies strewn about. In particular because of the politics of change; the nobles kept Shojo around because they thought he was easy to manipulate, and if something didn't go their way it could be reasonably assumed to be the work of another noble and their efforts could still bear fruit in the future. If you just beat down the nobles when they disagree rather than putting up a facade of acquiescing to some demand or another, even if you're doing the right thing, you prove to them the futility of their efforts to change things through political means, and that's a ripe recipe for rebellion.

A noble who's only real stance in the rebellion is "I want power" is going to have a rough time of it. The other nobles are going to side with the status quo because they don't want one of their peers getting ahead of them, and the common people are just going to see a power hungry noble get quashed.

Now, if Shojo's policies really were that bad, that is a different scenario, but politically, the worst thing that will happen to Hinjo is probably more ninjas, as long as he rules competently.

[Killer Angel]

Let's not forget how he challenged an epic level lich on his own and got massacred, leaving his team leaderless either.




Finally, I am fine with Roy being a fighter. What I don't like is his lack of forward planning before jumping into battles.


He clearly should ask Vaarsuvius for some high level planning, before jumping into battle against Xykon. :smallamused:

[Nightcanon]

I guess the title of this topic should have been "Roy doesn't deserve to be the hero."


I guess the title of this thread should have been "If I were creating an optimised PC to 'win' this campaign (after sneaking a look at the DM's notes), I wouldn't make Roy."

[AvatarVecna]

I guess the title of this thread should have been "If I were creating an optimised PC to 'win' this campaign (after sneaking a look at the DM's notes), I wouldn't make Roy."

Even without peeking at the DM's notes, my idea of an optimized PC hero isn't a Fight spending lots of points on mental attributes. Roy's cool, but a Vaarsuvius or a Durkon fully optimized would be so much more capable...and would make for such a boring story. Vaarsuvius engaging in a battle of wits and magic with Xykon is two gods wrestling while crushing everybody nearby in the process. Roy taking on Xykon is a final battle, where the mundane warrior faces down the epic lich is like a mortal reaching out to touch the face of god...by punching it.

That makes for a good story.

[littlebum2002]

This is very verbose, so I'm going to summon V for this one

:vaarsuvius:
1: Roy did exactly what he should do in that situation. His friend was going through a crisis, and he refused to abandon him. Just because he was fooled by the one person in life he knew he could trust 100% doesn't show gullibility, it shows that he was human and just extremely unlucky to have been put in one of only a handful of situations where the most trustworthy person he knows would utterly lie.

2: Roy is by far the most balanced character in the group, and by far the one most suited for leadership. No, as a fighter he's not optimized at fighting Liches, but he's about as close to optimized for that as a fighter can be. And besides, a good leader knows their weaknesses and surrounds themselves with those that are strong in those areas, which he has certainly done. So don't think of Roy as the Hero, think of his entire group as the heroes, and when you do that you'll see they have as good a chance as anybody of killing Xykon.

3: How many innocents has Belkar killed while Roy was around? You say you wouldn't sleep next to Belkar, which makes sense, but Belkar has a VERY good track record when around Roy. The worst thing he's done that I can think of was throw his dagger at Roy and retaliate against V for attacks which were entirely uncalled for in the situation and therefore which he had every right to retaliate against. All of his truly evil acts (killing prison guards, killing an innocent gnome, killing the Oracle) were done when Roy was not there. The difference between Belkar-with-Roy and Belkar-without-Roy is the difference between two instances of battery vs multiple first degree murders.

4: Roy planned the Dorukon Dungeon battle spectacularly. When his original plan (to use the strength of his companions to compensate for his own weaknesses) failed, he used his "completely sub optimal" fighting skills to destroy a much more powerful enemy. He almost lost when he failed is Sense Motive check against Xykon's Bluff, but that's what Haley is for and she wasn't there. He also planned the War pretty well, but was surprised by an unexpected move by the enemy, and did the best he could in the situation. For all he knew, if Xykon got to the throne room all was lost. Maybe if Hinjo had told him sooner that the throne room was highly guarded he would have made the decision to allow Xkyon to go in there and just follow him up, at which time the group almost certainly would have destroyed him, since he almost got destroyed even with Redcloak who wouldn't have been there to save him.

[zimmerwald1915]

So don't think of Roy as the Hero, think of his entire group as the heroes, and when you do that you'll see they have as good a chance as anybody of killing Xykon.
:elan: But V, Roy is the hero. We had a whole big scene about it in the last book, not to mention the author commentary.

[pendell]

Answering the OP.



First, he is dumb. He got fooled by Durkon so easily.


Durkula didn't just fool Roy. He fooled everyone in the Order. So if we're going to fire Roy and replace him with a leader from the order's ranks, the only person who "passed" this test is Belkar, and he's disqualified by virtue of being almost too evil to live.

Also , mechanically speaking, he has the highest wisdom+intelligence score of anyone in the party. Durkon may have higher wisdom, Vaarsuvius definitely has higher INT, but they don't have both stats, which Roy does.



Secondly, he is overly trusting.


Roy has done a pretty good job of measuring people outside the team well enough. And I also note that Belkar has remained on a very tight leash around Roy -- certainly he caused much more grief and more homicides when Haley was in charge.

Roy is able to inspire his followers and bring out the best in them. That includes Belkar.




Finally, he is weak. He is a high level fighter when his adversaries are even higher leveled casters.


As mentioned elsewhere, the quickest way to kill something in high-level 3.5 play is to drop a high-leveled melee fighter next to it. Roy by himself is going to be in trouble, but a meat shield and damage dealer is an invaluable contribution to the party.



Yet despite this obvious disadvantage he rushes headlong into his fights without formulating a proper plan. We saw this before when he jumped on Xykon's dragon and we see it now as he attacks Durkon. How is he supposed to defeat Xykon when most people think he won't be able to handle Durkon?


He's made plans and can adjust to tactical problems on the fly, as in his fight with Thog. Yes, he has on occasion allowed his heroic instincts to overcome his good sense, but there are times (as now) when those heroic instincts are exactly the right thing to do.

Attacking Xykon WAS a tactical blunder which got him killed, and he seems to have learned from it.



Why is this guy the leader again?

Originally, he's the leader because he hired everyone else (see the origin prequel). He tore up their contract about halfway through book 2 but he remains the unanimous choice as leader by the group.

Why?

1) It's HIS quest. He was the one who started after Xykon, and it's still largely his vision they are following. The simplest definition of a leader is the one who walks in front. Roy does that -- the others follow, at least partly because they have no competing vision with a stronger claim on the hearts of the party.

2) Let's look at the competition, shall we?
Elan -- childishly naive and very low int/wis. next!
Belkar -- chaotic evil and sociopathic. Next!
Durkon -- Dead, replaced by a doppleganger. Next! And when he was alive, he would still not be the leader because as grumpy old dwarf with zero charisma, he cannot inspire followers. That's why he was all alone when Roy took him under his wing.

Vaarsuvius -- too intelligent, too abstract, too distant. S/He's an advisor, not a leader. Followers are not inspired by long-winded, logical speech balloons. Further, interest in magical research et al means V has precious little time for *people* save as distractions, which is not something a leader can afford to do.

It's -- how do I put this? I think, despite hir character growth, Vaarsuvius still sees the answer to most problems as : "Magic". But a leader sees PEOPLE as the answer to most problems.

Confronted with a locked door, I suspect Vaarsuvius' first instinct would be to hit the books to find an Open Door spell. If ze couldn't find one, ze might even research one to open this lock and other locks.

A leader, by contrast, turns to Haley and says "Open the door."

Leaders see the answer to most problems as finding the right qualified person for the job and then motivating them to do it. Vaarsuvius, as I read hir, is a researcher and not a leader. An invaluable support to the party, V would be useless as leader, since V would attempt to tackle the problems hirself without help.

Haley -- the only other person who is even remotely credible as the Order's Leader -- actually DID lead for awhile, and her stint did not end well. Her secretive nature meant that she was unable to keep Celia from going off on her own, and she lacked both the presence and the raw physical power to restrain Belkar from committing murder. She also took her eye off the ball and distracted herself with the Azure City resistance rather than pursuing the main mission -- resurrecting Roy and continuing the pursuit of the gates.

Most importantly, being leader convinced Haley it is NOT a job she wants and will decline if offered it again. Even if she COULD do it she won't.

So that's it. Roy is the leader because Roy is the party visionary, the party example, and has the muscle to impose his will on Belkar. No one else has the leadership skills to keep the group together , let alone pursue Roy's vision. So if Roy dies, the order fragments into its constituent pieces. Again.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Ankheg]

Now, that I read this thread, all I can say that in the end Roy don't have to take criticism or any praise. He got to the 1001 at the moment just fine.

What makes him a leader is that - still, to this strip they are a team. That's what leaders do, aren't they. Pendell made some analysis on qualities which make him a viable person. Point with looking how people can solve task is the most appropriate in my opinion.

And the main thing - he cares. About his party, about their lives, about how they go together this path and he keeps them together. Not by some knowledge, but by his own nature.

[littlebum2002]

:elan: But V, Roy is the hero. We had a whole big scene about it in the last book, not to mention the author commentary.

Well, yes, but it's foolish to say he's a "bad hero" when he's optimized himself to the best of his ability for the task at hand and surrounded himself with 4 people who are very good at things he can't do and Elan. That's exactly what a good leader is expected to do.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

...I already don't believe Xykon is the real hero of Order of the Stick.

(But seriously, if I had been eating something at the time, seeing that post would have made me choke on it. I'd ask to sig it if this forum allowed longer signatures.)
There's always that extended signatures thread.

[zimmerwald1915]

Well, yes, but it's foolish to say he's a "bad hero" when he's optimized himself to the best of his ability for the task at hand and surrounded himself with 4 people who are very good at things he can't do and Elan. That's exactly what a good leader is expected to do.
:elan: That's beside the point, V. You called us all heroes. And Roy is. He's pretty much the bestest hero ever. But you and me? We're not the heroes. And I'm okay with being a supporting character. I don't need to be called a hero just to look big.

[littlebum2002]

:elan: That's beside the point, V. You called us all heroes. And Roy is. He's pretty much the bestest hero ever. But you and me? We're not the heroes. And I'm okay with being a supporting character. I don't need to be called a hero just to look big.

You're co-heroes. Or Vice heroes.

[Onyavar]

He clearly should ask Vaarsuvius for some high level planning, before jumping into battle against Xykon. :smallamused:

That was meant sarcastically, but is still true. He should also rely on the resurrected Durkon for that, and even Haley might still be able to come up with insights about Reddie or even the MitD.

But Roy is the tactical genius here, and for all the advice and tips he may get - he makes the plans and the battle decisions once the battle plan is invalidated.

I'm not even sure who would win in a hypothetical chess match - V or Roy?

[zimmerwald1915]

You're co-heroes. Or Vice heroes.
:elan: You made that up!

:elan: I … didn't know you had it in you.

[Keltest]

You're co-heroes. Or Vice heroes.

I believe the word is deuteragonist. Second most important character. At least compared to Roy's protagonist.

[SavageWombat]

I dunno, it makes sense to me.

What did Roy ever do to DESERVE being saddled with this group?

I mean, we're not talking Xykon-level punishment, but it's clearly worse than what Azure City gave Belkar.

[Kish]

Hey, Shojo probably ran the city like a paladin would until they tried to murder him and then he did the only thing he could to save the world and stop his city from being taken by some jackass-evil noble like Kubota, because lets face it Hinjo wouldn't make it a year pass the dead of Shojo unless it was part of some noble's scheme for power.
Are you sure of those assertions? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15371836&postcount=108)

[Ankheg]

I dunno, it makes sense to me.

What did Roy ever do to DESERVE being saddled with this group?

I mean, we're not talking Xykon-level punishment, but it's clearly worse than what Azure City gave Belkar.

They still do the job, don't they?

[King of Nowhere]

I'm not even sure who would win in a hypothetical chess match - V or Roy?

Chess is more int-based (it is actually more practice-based, but let's assume both of them are casual playes), so V would win. However, skill with chess and skill with people are not necessarily related. Chess is a game with complete information, where everyone moves according to strict rules. The world does not work that way. I am a very good chess player, and I suppose I am ok at giving advice, but I'd be a terrible leader.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Leading is often a matter of following the right person. For instance: knowing what effect vampirization has on a person is something you'd typically hire a cleric for. While I doubt Durkon would have known the answer, it still would have been his job to warn Roy about it. You simply can't plan for having a backup on every skill set in such a small party.

His biggest failure as a human resources manager is probably still Belkar, who was brought on as a tracker but couldn't track a steam locomotive on a non forked track. The others usually perform adequately whenever Roy puts his trust in their ability to do something. The thing with Xykon was a typical case of not having the right person or solution handy (although getting Durkon a scroll of windwalk at some point might have been an idea it was hardly a situation he could plan for, usually he would have had Vaarsuvius with a flight spell). Sure, a better solution might have been to run back to the tower and hope he's not done there by the time they finally arrive, but that tactic would have had its own drawbacks.

[Nightcanon]

Even without peeking at the DM's notes, my idea of an optimized PC hero isn't a Fight spending lots of points on mental attributes. Roy's cool, but a Vaarsuvius or a Durkon fully optimized would be so much more capable...and would make for such a boring story. Vaarsuvius engaging in a battle of wits and magic with Xykon is two gods wrestling while crushing everybody nearby in the process. Roy taking on Xykon is a final battle, where the mundane warrior faces down the epic lich is like a mortal reaching out to touch the face of god...by punching it.

That makes for a good story.

That's kinda my point. The OP seems to think he's offering a critique of the Giant's playstyle in a D&D campaign in which he's chosen to play a character called Roy Greenhilt, and is making a mess of it by being a fighter with a personality, rather than a scry-and-die mage. As you say, this makes for a better story.

(PS: V attacking Xykon, even with a 3-way soulmeld, resulted in V being throttled by Xykon and needing rescue by O-Chul and the MitD; Roy's fought Xykon twice and the score is 1-all... because this is a better story).

[F.Harr]

Why is this guy the leader again?

What does "diserve" have to do with anything? He hired them. He's not as passive as Durkon, as self-absorbed as Vaarsuvious, as own-agendaed as Haley, as psychotic as Belkar and as. . . silly as Elan.

He's the only alpha dog in this pack. And remember, "Incompitant good against apathetic evil". That's the story. Roy fits in it. Eisenhauer wouldn't.

[Porthos]

His biggest failure as a human resources manager is probably still Belkar, who was brought on as a tracker but couldn't track a steam locomotive on a non forked track.

A fair point about Belkar. But by the time he figured out that Belkar was a crap tracker, he was already saddled with him. And by the time he figured out he was not only a sociopath (at least at the time), but a very dangerous one, there wasn't much he could do about it. He never had the chance to turn him over to any sort of authority that had a hope in hell in keeping him contained.

...

Well, he did probably find a place. Too bad it was run by an even bigger looney toon (Tarquin). Worse, if he left Belkar behind in the arena, he would have been risking the life of countless innocents who had been unfairly sent there.

Getting back to the main point though, it is a bit funny when it comes to how the Order was formed in the first place. There is a scene in Origins (:haley: Yours to buy now in electronic form for the cheap price of $10! :haley: Immediate delivery guaranteed!!!) where Roy:

unsurprisingly, has just about had enough of all of the newly formed Order's antics.

And in that scene it is Durkon who convinces Roy to take the team "as is" and try to make them a cohesive unit. Perhaps even make them better people (if only marginally).

Roy didn't exactly like this suggestion, but after Durkon pressed (for reasons which are clear from earlier in the book), Roy relents.

So, really, almost all of this is Durkon's "fault". For having such a high opinion of Roy's leadership skills. :smallwink:

[littlebum2002]

I believe the word is deuteragonist. Second most important character. At least compared to Roy's protagonist.

Those crazy Greeks had a word for EVERYTHING


Are you sure of those assertions? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15371836&postcount=108)

I've never seen this quote before, thanks! Rich certainly knows a lot about D&D, but his understanding of the alignment system is greater than anyone I've ever seen or heard. Anyone who challenges him about his characters acting outside their alignment is going to lose that argument, period.


That's kinda my point. The OP seems to think he's offering a critique of the Giant's playstyle in a D&D campaign in which he's chosen to play a character called Roy Greenhilt, and is making a mess of it by being a fighter with a personality, rather than a scry-and-die mage. As you say, this makes for a better story.

In my mind, as a D&D player, one of the more rewarding aspects of this story is that none of the characters, of either -tagonist variety, are even slightly optimized, but yet they all perform excellently at what they do. Even Elan is a savant at a few crucial skills.

This comic is the perfect example of what a campaign SHOULD be: characters with personality going on an adventure solving problems against enemies that are just SLIGHTLY stronger than they are to keep it challenging. Much more fun than a contest between the players and the DM as to whose optimized primary caster can act first to destroy the other in the first round.

Edit: can you imagine how boring this story would be if it consisted of "everyone sits around watching a fully optimized Xykon and Redcloak fight a fully optimized V and Durkon"?

[ti'esar]

Well, enemies that are just slightly stronger than they are and Xykon.

[An Enemy Spy]

Whether or not Roy "deserves" to be hero, whatever the heck that even means, is irrelevant. Roy didn't set out to save the world, nor was he chosen by any authority or cosmic force. Roy set out to kill a lich to fulfill an oath his jerk dad saddled him with, and as a result of that stumbled into an apocalyptic conspiracy. When he learned the full scope of what was happening, he decided his only option was to stop the end of the world from happening. I don't understand what your issue with this is.

[littlebum2002]

Well, enemies that are just slightly stronger than they are and Xykon.

You mean the same Xykon who got defeated by a fighter about 7 levels below him in 2 rounds? Something tells me that he has weaknesses that can be exploited.

[ti'esar]

You mean the same Xykon who got defeated by a fighter about 7 levels below him in 2 rounds?

That was under unusual circumstances.

Though I do think it's possible that the Giant intended Xykon to be a more level-appropriate opponent for the Order at the beginning of the comic, and later revised his level upward - possibly twice. I don't think he was originally conceived of as epic.

[AvatarVecna]

That was under unusual circumstances.

Though I do think it's possible that the Giant intended Xykon to be a more level-appropriate opponent for the Order at the beginning of the comic, and later revised his level upward - possibly twice. I don't think he was originally conceived of as epic.

It can fit, and the argument for it fitting ultimately speaks to Xykon's hubris overcoming his sense of self-preservation, and even then, ridiculously lucky circumstances allowed the OotS to win: Xykon figured that a much lower-level fighter without his weapon would stand no chance dealing damage to him, even if he had a couple buffs on him. He didn't think Roy would pick him up and throw him (grapple and Str, respectively), and grappling is one thing mage's kinda suck against if they haven't prepared for it.

Still, Xykon would've been fine the next round (casting some kind of Stilled Teleport, or maybe Freedom of Movement if he knows it), but instead of trying to keep a good hold on him, Roy through him across the room into a gate that was containing a creature woven out of the quite-literal fabric of the universe. The mage who had designed the gate to protect this hole in reality was, incidentally, epic...and very paranoid. Everything that had attempted to get that close to the gate had been zapped by whatever epic level trap said epic wizard had laid there, and Xykon was no different; more to the point, epic magic is well-known for being capable of pretty decidedly bull**** stuff, if (ab)used properly.

In short, because Xykon spent most of the fight ****ing around, and because Xykon had his most powerful monster ally not do anything, and because Xykon had his near-epic cleric basically playing support, and because Xykon didn't have a way of interrupting a grappler's turn with a way out of the grapple (such as a Contingent Freedom of Movement, or something similar), and because Roy was mad enough to make the decidedly terrible tactical decision of tossing him across the room, and because of the insanely improbable circumstances of said room (that it contained a gate created and protected by epic magic, including some kind of trap), and because Roy just happened to throw Xykon directly at said gate, Xykon was "defeated" by what was, to the best of my admittedly limited ability to determine, adventurers not yet out of the single digit levels.

Stacking on top of this completely improbable fight is that, even after Xykon went down, Redcloak didn't take off the kiddie gloves and curbstomp them the way a...what, 15th, 16th level cleric should have been able to? Redcloak, even back then, would've been a boss encounter for them even without raising an army of zombies, which he totally could. I can only assume that Redcloak had cast a lot of spells that day, and preferred letting these adventurers think they'd won the day and leave while Redcloak hid in the shadows. Hell, he was probably just going to walk back into the throne room once they left and start cleaning up (since the gate was still there and the adventurers were leaving) if Elan hadn't pressed the castle's self-destruct button.

[Porthos]

Redcloak, even back then, would've been a boss encounter for them even without raising an army of zombies, which he totally could. I can only assume that Redcloak had cast a lot of spells that day, and preferred letting these adventurers think they'd won the day and leave while Redcloak hid in the shadows. Hell, he was probably just going to walk back into the throne room once they left and start cleaning up (since the gate was still there and the adventurers were leaving) if Elan hadn't pressed the castle's self-destruct button.
While I don't want to get into specifics for those who haven't read the book (and are somehow still unspoiled) the events that transpire late in Start of Darkness leave Redcloak, shall we say, changed psychologically. Enough so to explain his early Mr. Smithers-like personality as opposed to his more recent take-charge one. At least IMO.

To put it another way, Team OotS was also rather lucky that Redcloak, at the time, was still dealing with the aftermath of certain events which made him not the boss encounter in his own right that he should have been.

You can be the best craftsman in the world. But if you really don't feel like picking up that hammer, it can be a bit of a drag on your performance. :smallwink:

[AvatarVecna]

While I don't want to get into specifics for those who haven't read the book (and are somehow still unspoiled) the events that transpire late in Start of Darkness leave Redcloak, shall we say, changed psychologically. Enough so to explain his early Mr. Smithers-like personality as opposed to his more recent take-charge one. At least IMO.

Oh definitely, the events that shall not be named would totally result in Redcloak losing most of his personal initiative. He's basically on auto-pilot throughout the first couple hundred comics, and only really gets his head back in the game either when (depending on your opinion)...

either when he took over the hobgoblin tribes, or when the hobgoblin general died saving him during the siege.

[theNater]

Well, enemies that are just slightly stronger than they are and Xykon.
While numerical advantage isn't overriding in D&D, it still matters. If the Order and Team Evil were, on a random day, suddenly teleported to a flat, featureless plane and dimensionally anchored there until one group had defeated the other, the Order would probably lose by a relatively small margin.

[ti'esar]

I wasn't meaning to suggest that the climax of DCF doesn't work from an in-universe standpoint. I just also suspect that the Giant has "behind the scenes" revised Xykon's level upward since the start of the comic (and possibly again between the battle of Azure City and the duel with Darth V).

[Doctor_Cthulwho]

He's the leader because there no one else in the party wants to be. Elan wants to be the goofball. Belkar wants to be the weapon - point him at the enemy and shoot. Vaarsuvius has no interest in leading (and doesn't handle people very well anyway). Durkon has a solid, stable personality, but seems more content as his position as an adviser. And while Haley has been seen to be an able leader in the past, she has strong self-doubts about her ability to lead and is unwilling to take the responsibility.

So, Roy is the leader by default. (Also, he was the guy who started the party). He's not the best, strongest, wisest, most stable, or kindest of leaders - but he's what they've got.

Which is really applicable to the party as a whole. They're not the best, strongest, smartest, most virtuous, or the most heroic, and there are probably others who'd be better at this whole "world-saving" thing. But this is who we've got and there's no one else to do it.

To quote The Iron Bull:

"My people don't pick leaders from the strongest, or the smartest, or even the most talented. We pick the ones willing to make the hard decisions... and live with the consequences."

[littlebum2002]

That was under unusual circumstances.

Though I do think it's possible that the Giant intended Xykon to be a more level-appropriate opponent for the Order at the beginning of the comic, and later revised his level upward - possibly twice. I don't think he was originally conceived of as epic.

Oh, I totally agree that Xykon was probably not written as epic until later in the comic.

But the point still stands. Roy has a skill, his intelligence, and Xykon has a weakness, he's overly confident and has at least one low mental stat that causes him to overlook things very often. Whenever Roy is outmatched in a battle, he finds a way to win using his external environment. He used the gate to kill Xykon, the cliff to kill the Spiked Chain guy, the colosseum to defeat Thog, and his plan of cutting off the zombies head might have worked if zombies actually worked that way.

So it's entirely possible that, at the end of the day, the Order will be able to defeat Xykon in a straight up fight when Roy thinks of something Xykon overlooked and uses it against him.

[Doctor_Cthulwho]

That was under unusual circumstances.

Though I do think it's possible that the Giant intended Xykon to be a more level-appropriate opponent for the Order at the beginning of the comic, and later revised his level upward - possibly twice. I don't think he was originally conceived of as epic.

From a writing perspective I suspect that might be the case, but from a narrative perspective I always preferred to think of it as what I call the "Palpatine Effect".

Basically it doesn't matter how powerful/epic you are, if you're small enough to be picked up and tossed, and you insist upon working near a giant shaft/mystical gate that destroys evil/shark tank/giant blender/whatever then you're in for a bad time if you let an enemy get their hands on you.

Roy on that occasion was smart/lucky enough to know he wasn't going to beat Xykon - epic or not - in those conditions, so did the next best thing. Also helped along by Xykon not taking the threat seriously enough till - yep - he was picked up and tossed into the thing that didn't care how powerful he was.

[Seward]

No one remembers Belkar's guard in Azure City.

And that was in a situation where Roy was in a magic-proof prison separated from Belkar. It strengthens the argument that Roy keeps Belkar in check

[littlebum2002]

And that was in a situation where Roy was in a magic-proof prison separated from Belkar. It strengthens the argument that Roy keeps Belkar in check

You know, I'm thinking back on the comic and I literally cannot think of one time Belkar killed an innocent person (or harmed an innocent person who was not a member of the Order) in front of Roy. He's a magnificent parole officer.

[Keltest]

You know, I'm thinking back on the comic and I literally cannot think of one time Belkar killed an innocent person (or harmed an innocent person who was not a member of the Order) in front of Roy. He's a magnificent parole officer.

he stabbed the oracle in front of his ghost, if that counts.

[Kish]

You know, I'm thinking back on the comic and I literally cannot think of one time Belkar killed an innocent person (or harmed an innocent person who was not a member of the Order) in front of Roy. He's a magnificent parole officer.
Except for the minor detail that he lets his parolee out of his sight all the time.

Seriously, what? I suspect a parole officer would get fired, not commended, if the parolee killed a bunch of people while the parole officer was nowhere near and the officer explained, "He'd said he was going down to the store to get a soda!" Roy doesn't even live up to that standard: if he doesn't know where Belkar is, he's happier than if Belkar is right in front of him.

[littlebum2002]

Except for the minor detail that he lets his parolee out of his sight all the time.

Seriously, what? I suspect a parole officer would get fired, not commended, if the parolee killed a bunch of people while the parole officer was nowhere near and the officer explained, "He'd said he was going down to the store to get a soda!" Roy doesn't even live up to that standard: if he doesn't know where Belkar is, he's happier than if Belkar is right in front of him.

Name one time Roy voluntarily let Belkar out of his sight where Belkar committed murder. The only 3 times Belkar murdered someone in the strip Roy was

A) In prison, or

B) dead.

[Kish]

Name one time Roy voluntarily let Belkar out of his sight where Belkar committed murder.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0115.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0133.html).

Even if you had been right in your assertion that Belkar didn't murder people multiple times when Roy was alive, free, and not worrying at all about where Belkar was, would you like to explain how that would reflect positively on Roy? If you buy a lottery ticket and happen to win ten million dollars it doesn't mean you had a brilliant investment scheme. Are you seriously asserting that Roy even tries to police Belkar beyond the very base level of "I won't let him commit murder if he attempts it where I already happen to be looking"?

The only 3 times Belkar murdered someone in the strip Roy was

A) In prison, or

B) dead.
And Roy's plans for ensuring Belkar remains under control in the event of Roy's death or incapacitation? Oh that's right, nonexistent.

[pendell]

And Roy's plans for ensuring Belkar remains under control in the event of Roy's death or incapacitation? Oh that's right, nonexistent.


He doesn't need one. Remember, he has the Oracle's prophecy. He assumes that "drawing his last breath ever" means that Belkar will cease to be a problem to anyone at the end of the year. Until then, he's running out the clock, keeping Belkar pointed at a "greater evil then himself".

The big problem with this assumption, IMO, is that we already have a non-breathing member of the OOTS at the moment and he's already a great deal of trouble. In a world where sapient undead are a thing, "drawing his last breath ever" is a great deal less conclusive than I, for one, would wish.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Kish]

He doesn't need one.
Now I'd agree.

That just leaves the first half of the comic, however. In which Roy acted like Belkar's evil was fundamentally all about how it inconvenienced him, Roy. Gah he's drawing on me! He just tried to cut out a goblin child's kidneys in front of me, no no bad Belkar! Good, now he's out of my sight and I can put him out of my mind!

[Remedy]

And Roy's plans for ensuring Belkar remains under control in the event of Roy's death or incapacitation? Oh that's right, nonexistent.
Most prisons don't have plans for keeping the prisoners inside after they've been destroyed unexpectedly, and very few prisons could reasonably keep even regular human prisoners trapped if a bomb went off and took out a wall and the guards manning it. Never mind that Belkar is far from your average prisoner, being a level 16 character in a world where one of the biggest cities in the realm had level 5 characters constituting the elite and the only known wizard in the entire realm that could teleport (which comes online at level 9) being present only due to a relationship with the crown. Unless you expect the equivalent of a Miko (possibly strongest Paladin alive, prior to her Fall and then death) to be manning every prison dealing with his regular jailbreaks, you aren't going to hold him anywhere successfully for long.

What would be your genius plan for keeping him under control in Roy's situation, if I might ask?

[martianmister]

What would be your genius plan for keeping him under control in Roy's situation, if I might ask?

How about...killing him?

[Kish]

littlebum2002 claimed that Roy was "a magnificent parole officer."

How many people does the parolee need to murder before the term "magnificent" is a tidge overkind for the job the parole officer's been doing?

[Kantaki]

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0115.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0133.html).

Even if you had been right in your assertion that Belkar didn't murder people multiple times when Roy was alive, free, and not worrying at all about where Belkar was, would you like to explain how that would reflect positively on Roy? If you buy a lottery ticket and happen to win ten million dollars it doesn't mean you had a brilliant investment scheme. Are you seriously asserting that Roy even tries to police Belkar beyond the very base level of "I won't let him commit murder if he attempts it where I already happen to be looking"?

And Roy's plans for ensuring Belkar remains under control in the event of Roy's death or incapacitation? Oh that's right, nonexistent.

I'm not sure, does not accepting surrender as murder? It certainly could be called evil, but the goblins still were enemy combatants.
The barbarians were killed in combat. True, the fight wasn't supposed to be to the death but Belkar was only informed of this afterwards. And I don't think we can fault Belkar if those barbarians couldn't fight.

And yes, the Deva’s assessment clearly showed that Roy had a positive influence on Belkar’s behaviour.

Finally, are you really blaming Roy for not making plans regarding Belkar for the case that his death? I don't see what he could have done except killing the halfling, with would be a rather un-Roy-like behaviour.

In my opinion Roy did everything he could to keep Belkar in check and that he did better than most others would have.

[Kish]

Finally, are you really blaming Roy for not making plans regarding Belkar for the case that his death?
Are you really excusing Belkar's murders? You think far less of Roy than I do, if you think he would have been okay with Belkar murdering goblins who were trying to surrender, if he had happened to see it. In other words--if he had actually been behaving anything like a prison warden until the deva told him he was responsible for Belkar and he had to grasp for an excuse.

This is ridiculous, that a statement as obvious as "a magnificent parole officer's parolee doesn't roam around freely killing whoever he pleases whenever the parole officer doesn't happen to be in the same room as him" is getting so much pushback. Even if Belkar hadn't committed a bunch of murders while under Roy's "supervision," that wouldn't mean Roy was competent--it would just mean he was lucky.

[Remedy]

How about...killing him?
Yes, of course, a little trim under the chin in the dead of night, little mess and one less problem. Because that's how Lawful Good operates. Roy suggested that same idea to the Deva, and she sure didn't seem comfortable with it. And she's a being of pure law and good, in case you need the reminder.

[pendell]

What "lawful good" would do, IMO, is hand him over to the nearest competent lawful authorities with jurisdiction over his crimes (meaning: Not the Empire of Blood or Greysky City but most definitely Azure City).

In the absence of competent lawful authorities , lawful good would convene a summary court martial , try him, and if found guilty hang him. There's no need for murder in his sleep. Restrain him, establish his guilt , and render a punishment based on whatever laws are in force -- on the book of Exalted Deeds or similar, if you are in wilderness area and there is no other applicable law.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Kantaki]

Are you really excusing Belkar's murders? This is ridiculous, that a statement as obvious as "a magnificent parole officer's parolee doesn't roam around freely killing whoever he pleases whenever the parole officer doesn't happen to be in the same room as him" is getting so much pushback. Even if Belkar hadn't committed a bunch of murders while under Roy's "supervision," that wouldn't mean Roy was competent--it would just mean he was lucky.

But whom did he murder?
I'm willing to admit that killing the goblin that had surrendered was murder.
But those barbarians? That was a fight, the entry-exam of the barbarian guild. Is it Belkar’s fault that the guild master choose those three guys to fight him? Is it Belkar’s fault that he wasn't told the fight wasn't to the death?

That makes one, maybe two murders in the dungeon of Dorukan and the victims were enemies in a combat situation. Roy had earlier killed sleeping goblins. Where is the difference?

[littlebum2002]

Even if you had been right in your assertion that Belkar didn't murder people multiple times when Roy was alive, free, and not worrying at all about where Belkar was, would you like to explain how that would reflect positively on Roy?

Let's see:

Times where Roy is influencing Belkar: Belkar doesn't murder people
Times where Roy is not influencing Belkar: Belkar does murder people

If I honestly need to explain to you how, if one man can influence a person and change them from a murderer to a non-murderer, that reflects positively on that man; I'm sorry, you need more help than I can give.


littlebum2002 claimed that Roy was "a magnificent parole officer."

How many people does the parolee need to murder before the term "magnificent" is a tidge overkind for the job the parole officer's been doing?

"Less than he would have murdered before". Before Roy met Belkar, he was murdering people left and right. Since he met him, he's murdered 3 people, and none of which were during times when Roy had any control over him whatsoever. The 3 cases you mentioned don't count because:


I'm not sure, does not accepting surrender as murder? It certainly could be called evil, but the goblins still were enemy combatants.
The barbarians were killed in combat. True, the fight wasn't supposed to be to the death but Belkar was only informed of this afterwards. And I don't think we can fault Belkar if those barbarians couldn't fight.

Killing someone in combat isn't murder, and killing something just because they're evil isn't murder (or even an evil act), because Miko did it all the time without losing her Paladin powers.

Belkar has gone from "mass murderer 24/7" to "occasional murderer" when Roy isn't around and simply "violent criminal" when Roy is around. You show me one parole officer who, when putting someone in jail or killing them aren't options, who can take an unrepentant mass murderer, and let them walk around the world while being scared of you enough that they reduce their crime rate that much? Not going to happen. The diva showed us, the differences in Belkar from BR (before Roy) to AR (After ROy) are phenomenal.


A prominent theologian once said that, if you want to judge a religion, you can't judge it based on whether or not its followers are good or bad people; you need to judge it based on whether it followers are better people or worse people than they would be without their religion. In the same way, you can't judge Roy based on whether Belkar is good or bad, you need to judge him based on whether Belkar would be a better person or a worse person without him. And when it's "3 murders with Roy, and only when he's not around" vs "potentially thousands if he was free" then, yes, Roy is doing an amazing job.

[Keltest]

Let's see:

Times where Roy is influencing Belkar: Belkar doesn't murder people
Times where Roy is not influencing Belkar: Belkar does murder people

If I honestly need to explain to you how, if one man can influence a person and change them from a murderer to a non-murderer, that reflects positively on that man; I'm sorry, you need more help than I can give.



"Less than he would have murdered before". Before Roy met Belkar, he was murdering people left and right. Since he met him, he's murdered 3 people, and none of which were during times when Roy had any control over him whatsoever. The 3 cases you mentioned don't count because:



Killing someone in combat isn't murder, and killing something just because they're evil isn't murder (or even an evil act), because Miko did it all the time without losing her Paladin powers.

Belkar has gone from "mass murderer 24/7" to "occasional murderer" when Roy isn't around and simply "violent criminal" when Roy is around. You show me one parole officer who, when putting someone in jail or killing them aren't options, who can take an unrepentant mass murderer, and let them walk around the world while being scared of you enough that they reduce their crime rate that much? Not going to happen. The diva showed us, the differences in Belkar from BR (before Roy) to AR (After ROy) are phenomenal.


A prominent theologian once said that, if you want to judge a religion, you can't judge it based on whether or not its followers are good or bad people; you need to judge it based on whether it followers are better people or worse people than they would be without their religion. In the same way, you can't judge Roy based on whether Belkar is good or bad, you need to judge him based on whether Belkar would be a better person or a worse person without him. And when it's "3 murders with Roy, and only when he's not around" vs "potentially thousands if he was free" then, yes, Roy is doing an amazing job.

Not that I necessarily disagree with you, but that argument doesn't really apply here. Yes, Belkar murders significantly less when Roy is influencing him, but arguing that he is "a great parole officer" needs to take into account how often and under what circumstances Roy stops influencing Belkar to not murder as well.

[littlebum2002]

Not that I necessarily disagree with you, but that argument doesn't really apply here. Yes, Belkar murders significantly less when Roy is influencing him, but arguing that he is "a great parole officer" needs to take into account how often and under what circumstances Roy stops influencing Belkar to not murder as well.

2 circumstances:

1) Roy was dead
2) Roy was locked in jail on trumped up charges

Neither of these were due to negligence on the part of Roy. Sure, his death was technically based on decisions he made (and him being in jail was not due to any decisions he made at all), but it doesn't really reflect badly on him that "he lost his life trying to save the world and now his charge is unsupervised". He had to choose between "keep Belkar from committing murder" and "possibly kill the creature trying to destroy the world" and he chose correctly.

[Keltest]

2 circumstances:

1) Roy was dead
2) Roy was locked in jail on trumped up charges

Neither of these were due to negligence on the part of Roy. Sure, his death was technically based on decisions he made (and him being in jail was not due to any decisions he made at all), but it doesn't really reflect badly on him that "he lost his life trying to save the world and now his charge is unsupervised". He had to choose between "keep Belkar from committing murder" and "possibly kill the creature trying to destroy the world" and he chose correctly.

Don't forget when he killed the barbarians. Even if a fight to the death was a reasonable assumption on his part, he went out of his way to kill all three of them when he only needed to fight one.

[martianmister]

Roy also doesn't seem to care about keeping him under control. Like in 966 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0966.html), he let him loose on a city filled with gnomes, even though he knows what Belkar have done to Solt.

[littlebum2002]

Don't forget when he killed the barbarians. Even if a fight to the death was a reasonable assumption on his part, he went out of his way to kill all three of them when he only needed to fight one.

You're totally right, I'll upgrade the crimes Belkar has committed under Roy's care to 2 counts of battery and 2 counts of manslaughter. (I'm not counting the one barbarian he'd have fought anyways, since everyone assumes these things are fights to the death)


Roy also doesn't seem to care about keeping him under control. Like in 966 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0966.html), he let him loose on a city filled with gnomes, even though he knows what Belkar have done to Solt.

And how many gnomes did Belkar kill/hurt/anything while he was free? Roy knows Belkar is, for some reason, pretending to be Good and therefore, I believe, is more likely to let him off his leash every now and then.

[hroþila]

Killing someone in combat isn't murder, and killing something just because they're evil isn't murder (or even an evil act), because Miko did it all the time without losing her Paladin powers.
I seriously doubt Miko walked down the streets scanning people at random and killing everyone who registered as Evil. In all probability, she was sent after actual criminals who registered as Evil when she scanned them and were subsequently executed for their crimes, not for their alignment per se. The Detect Evil would be ancillary evidence.

[Jay R]

He's right. It's as if the leader was chosen to make a dysfunctional party that would justify rules jokes and long-term continuing situations, rather than to finish the story quickly, before it could make the author any money.

[littlebum2002]

I seriously doubt Miko walked down the streets scanning people at random and killing everyone who registered as Evil. In all probability, she was sent after actual criminals who registered as Evil when she scanned them and were subsequently executed for their crimes, not for their alignment per se. The Detect Evil would be ancillary evidence.

:vaarsuvius: I would find that to be entirely in keeping with what I know of her.

(In fact, I'd be pretty surprised if I found out she showed that level of restraint)

[hroþila]

:vaarsuvius: I would find that to be entirely in keeping with what I know of her.

(In fact, I'd be pretty surprised if I found out she showed that level of restraint)
The Giant said Miko "still managed to be a functional paladin" for most of her life, until her meltdown. If it turns out the Giant thinks what I described is the behaviour of a functional paladin, I should start re-reading the whole comic, because boy am I misinterpreting it big time.

[littlebum2002]

The Giant said Miko "still managed to be a functional paladin" for most of her life, until her meltdown. If it turns out the Giant thinks what I described is the behaviour of a functional paladin, I should start re-reading the whole comic, because boy am I misinterpreting it big time.

So you're telling me that if Miko was in a dungeon fighting goblins who tried to kill her, and they suddenly surrendered, she'd just let them do so? Instead of just killing them because she felt they deserved it?

If so, then I need to go re-read the comic, because boy I must have missed something huge.

[Keltest]

You're totally right, I'll upgrade the crimes Belkar has committed under Roy's care to 2 counts of battery and 2 counts of manslaughter. (I'm not counting the one barbarian he'd have fought anyways, since everyone assumes these things are fights to the death)

Manslaughter? In what was were his actions not unnecessary and deliberate?

[theNater]

So you're telling me that if Miko was in a dungeon fighting goblins who tried to kill her, and they suddenly surrendered, she'd just let them do so? Instead of just killing them because she felt they deserved it?

If so, then I need to go re-read the comic, because boy I must have missed something huge.
Yeah, you have. Check #284 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0284.html) and #285 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html). When she has Belkar helpless, she hesitates. Even after all his provocations, and knowing specifically that he has murdered a guard, she's still aware on some level that what she's about to do is wrong. A couple of goblins with whom she has no personal history, whose only known crime is being in the employ of someone extremely powerful and cruel, who surrender as soon as he is gone? She'd absolutely accept that surrender.

[pendell]

So you're telling me that if Miko was in a dungeon fighting goblins who tried to kill her, and they suddenly surrendered, she'd just let them do so? Instead of just killing them because she felt they deserved it?

If so, then I need to go re-read the comic, because boy I must have missed something huge.

Have you read Start of Darkness yet...? Your reading should start there.


The gods commissioned the sapphire guard to destroy a goblin village in which the Crimson mantle was then being held. SOME of the paladins may have fallen for killing unarmed children, but most did not


As Rich made very plain in the thread on the OOTS afterlife, the OOTS gods are NOT nice, not even the good ones.

If I'm reading this correctly, Miko will not fall if she detect evil+smite a monster , even one with human-level intelligence. She MIGHT fall for doing that to a human being in a wilderness setting, and almost certainly within Azure City proper, where evil people enjoy the protection of law.

But the OOTS gods do not believe in equality of the races. In fact,


the entire race of goblins was specifically created for no other purpose than to serve as XP fodder for humans, elves, and the other PC races. This is EXPLICIT in Start Of Darkness.

Correcting this imbalance and making a world where goblins are (at worst) equal to other races or (at best) the superior race ruling all others, is a great deal of what drives Redcloak



All of which is to say there's a pretty good chance that if Miko killed surrendering goblins -- especially if she was alone and had no practical way to take or manage prisoners -- the only result would be XP gain. That is why goblins exist, after all.

It's not something I care for but it's not my world, not my rules.

I'm also pretty sure it's an attitude Rich despises as well, and the gods will get their comeuppance for that.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hroþila]

So you're telling me that if Miko was in a dungeon fighting goblins who tried to kill her, and they suddenly surrendered, she'd just let them do so? Instead of just killing them because she felt they deserved it?
I'm telling you nothing of the sort. I'm saying this:

killing something just because they're evil isn't murder (or even an evil act), because Miko did it all the time without losing her Paladin powers.
...doesn't hold IMO.

[Keltest]

I'm telling you nothing of the sort. I'm saying this:

...doesn't hold IMO.

I concur. Being evil is not enough to warrant a death sentence in and of itself. There are plenty of evil people who do nothing worse than think bitter and angry thoughts because acting on them would be detrimental to their person.

Likewise, killing an opponent who surrendered would be very un-lawful-good. Belkar was not necessarily obligated to accept their surrender, but Miko almost certainly would, provided the goblins could reasonably be expected to hold to it.

[Doctor_Cthulwho]

You're totally right, I'll upgrade the crimes Belkar has committed under Roy's care to 2 counts of battery and 2 counts of manslaughter. (I'm not counting the one barbarian he'd have fought anyways, since everyone assumes these things are fights to the death)

Wait, manslaughter? The guild master pointed across a room and said "to join you need to defeat one of them..." at which point Belkar rushed across and killed all 3. He didn't accidentally kill them, and they weren't even in combat at the time - only the half-ork even had the chance to get an angry face, the first guy was unarmed and lying on the ground when Belkar stabbed him. I'd say malice aforethought was definitely present.

Just because they would have fought Belkar in a battle with rules (which wouldn't have been to the death), doesn't make pre-emptively slaying them manslaughter.

Though I can't fault Roy on not acting on it as apparently no one brought it to any authorities attention before they'd left town (and the guild master himself was pretty "meh" about it - barbarians, I guess). I think there could be grounds for criticising him for not acting on things Belkar did when he wasn't under control - like killing the gnome. But I think, with Belkar, he's making the best of a bad situation. He can't bring the gnome back, and with him around Belkar is relatively under control and useful in the quest to take down a bigger evil. But I'd assume Roy wasn't expecting Belkar to die he'd probably, after the quest, be still planning on a more permanent way of dealing with a confirmed murderous criminal.

[littlebum2002]

I'm telling you nothing of the sort. I'm saying this:

...doesn't hold IMO.

Sorry, mis-communication. I was just trying to say that the specific example, Belkar killing the goblins in the first dungeon, wasn't murder or even necessarily Evil. I wasn't trying to make a broad application of that rule.




Manslaughter? In what was were his actions not unnecessary and deliberate?


Wait, manslaughter? The guild master pointed across a room and said "to join you need to defeat one of them..." at which point Belkar rushed across and killed all 3. He didn't accidentally kill them, and they weren't even in combat at the time - only the half-ork even had the chance to get an angry face, the first guy was unarmed and lying on the ground when Belkar stabbed him. I'd say malice aforethought was definitely present.

Just because they would have fought Belkar in a battle with rules (which wouldn't have been to the death), doesn't make pre-emptively slaying them manslaughter.

Though I can't fault Roy on not acting on it as apparently no one brought it to any authorities attention before they'd left town (and the guild master himself was pretty "meh" about it - barbarians, I guess). I think there could be grounds for criticising him for not acting on things Belkar did when he wasn't under control - like killing the gnome. But I think, with Belkar, he's making the best of a bad situation. He can't bring the gnome back, and with him around Belkar is relatively under control and useful in the quest to take down a bigger evil. But I'd assume Roy wasn't expecting Belkar to die he'd probably, after the quest, be still planning on a more permanent way of dealing with a confirmed murderous criminal.

Yes, you're right, it was murder. So Roy did make an error by letting Belkar go out on his own. But still, i believe he only did it because he figured Roy would never find out, and he's still a WHOLE lot less evil than he was before he met Roy.

I mean turning someone like Belkar into someone who "only" murders someone once every few months is just short of miraculous. When he met Roy he was on the run for murdering over a dozen people in 1 day, if my memory serves me right.

[Doctor_Cthulwho]

Sorry, mis-communication. I was just trying to say that the specific example, Belkar killing the goblins in the first dungeon, wasn't murder or even necessarily Evil. I wasn't trying to make a broad application of that rule.

Yes, you're right, it was murder. So Roy did make an error by letting Belkar go out on his own. But still, i believe he only did it because he figured Roy would never find out, and he's still a WHOLE lot less evil than he was before he met Roy.

I mean turning someone like Belkar into someone who "only" murders someone once every few months is just short of miraculous. When he met Roy he was on the run for murdering over a dozen people in 1 day, if my memory serves me right.

Oh definitely. Roy is a big part of why Belkar is a significantly reduced threat to the world, and by extension got Belkar indirectly into a position where he was able to reflect on his life and move away from being the murderous little Halfling he was.

[Syldar]

This is turning into a Miko argument. Stop befo- wait, this thread was made to complain about Roy not being a boring invincible hero. You may continue derailing until it is locked!

[Porthos]

I do want to get one thing off my chest.

What does "deserve to be the hero" even mean? :smallconfused: Is it a merit badge that one gets for completing x number of tasks for any of the various Scouting groups?

I mean, I get the complaints about how Roy doesn't "deserve" to be the leader of Team OotS. I vehemently disagree, but at least I understand them.

But what the flippin heck does "deserve" even have to do with being a hero? :smallconfused: Roy either is or he isn't heroic (at various times). Deserve ain't got nothing to do with it.

The only way "deserve" can come into it, I think, if one is complaining from a meta standpoint that Roy hasn't done things in-story to get to be viewed as a hero by people. Well, take that up with the author, I suppose. He's the one who has some people treating Roy's actions as heroic (he also has others treating them as anything but).

If, instead, the complaint is that we the readers shouldn't view Roy's actions in their totality as heoric, well, I think one has a pretty steep mountain to climb, as this thread has shown.

But if the complaint is that Roy isn't the type of hero one wants in a story... Well, there's no shortage of stories featuring Judge Dredd and/or Frank Castle clones running around dispening with their version of heroic justice.

===

NOTE: It's about now that I'd make a pithy comment about Roy being the hero that OotSWorld needs but not deserves, but I can't quite make it work. :smallwink:

[Syldar]

Like Porthos said, deserving does not come into being a hero. I'd say more, but he already said it.

[Thanatosia]

Let's not forget how he challenged an epic level lich on his own and got massacred
I don't see how this in any way reflects on Roy's intelligence. If he had any idea of how powerful Xykon really was, he might well have tried to come up with some other plan then leap on the dragon solo. But this is what he knew about Xykon:

1) He defeated him in single combat once already (yes, it was gimick win,but still a win)
2) The only spells he's seen Xykon cast was Magic Missile, Symbol of Pain, and Shatter.

Typically epic level casters don't spend a lot of time spending their rounds on Unmetamagiced Magic Missile. He didn't know Xykon was deliberately trying to keep his party alive while putting up a fake show-fight to bait them into deactivating the alignment detecting wards on Durokon's gate.

I remember dropping my jaw when I saw Xykon drop the meteor swarm on Roy on the Dragon. It was the first time we saw how powerful he really was (For those like me who hadn't read Start of Darkness yet).... I had no idea he was capable of casting 9th level spells, how the heck was Roy supposed to know?

[martianmister]

And how many gnomes did Belkar kill/hurt/anything while he was free?

So, he's a great parole officer because he's lucky?

[Lvl45DM!]

Alternatives to letting Belkar roam free
1) Lock him up in a place that can hold him-no such place has been shown to exist except Azure city and that place A) has been blown up and B) it was a corrupt institution.
2) Kill him. In a fair fight or in his sleep or after a rigged trial whatever.

The main problem with all of this is that Belkar dies and is no longer useful to the party. The party is currently attempting to save the world and is outmatched as it is.

[Kish]

If that's actually Roy's reasoning, than he should have said that to the deva instead of all that stuff about being a prison warden. He also should have accepted it as just when she replied, "In light of your asserted dedication to the idea of the ends justifying the means, I'll be sending your case over to the Lawful Evil afterlife now."

[Jay R]

Here is the authoritative discussion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html) of Roy as Belkar's leader. Of particular importance is the graph.

[littlebum2002]

So, he's a great parole officer because he's lucky?

If you think luck has to do with it, fine. But Roy knows that Belkar is (pretending to) turnging over a new leaf, and therefore isn't likely to cause trouble in Tinkertown



Here is the authoritative discussion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html) of Roy as Belkar's leader. Of particular importance is the graph.

Exactly. So Belkar is, for the looks of it, 1/16th as evil as he would be otherwise, and that's before his pretend change of heart, so he's even better now.

Again, if you honestly can't see how much better Belkar is now than he was Before Roy, then I just can't help you.

[Lvl45DM!]

If that's actually Roy's reasoning, than he should have said that to the deva instead of all that stuff about being a prison warden. He also should have accepted it as just when she replied, "In light of your asserted dedication to the idea of the ends justifying the means, I'll be sending your case over to the Lawful Evil afterlife now."

Thats not the ends justifying the means. Ends justifying the means would be allowing Belkar to kill because it gets him compliance. Roy struggles to keep him under control.
Wouldn't murdering Belkar (and a trial consisting only of the Order ending in his death is murder, they have no jurisdiction and its incredibly biased) be just as Lawful Evil?
Not to mention that due to Roy's influence Belkar has actually become a better person. Sure he's still Evil, but he freed Enor and Gannji at personal risk and hunted Durkula through the temple for no personal gain.
Roy has many flaws but he has been a demonstrably positive influence and is well on the way to redeeming a previously unrepentant psychopath. While minimizing the collateral damage along the way.

[King of Nowhere]

Personally, I'd have been ok with slitting belkar's throat while he sleeps, but lawful good types insist on a lawful trial and execution, and that's not available, and therefore you gotta do with what you have. Well, roy is not the perfect prison warden, but he's the better there is.
Just like he's not the perfect leader of the order, but he's the better there is. Just like he''s not the perfect guy to stop xykon, but he's the better there is. You know, that's how the real world tend to work. You may have noticed that people around you aren't perfect for their tasks, but they are what is available and they do what they can.

[Lvl45DM!]

Y'know in real life prisons, murderers still murder. Alot. Every felon has a parole officer and theres a quite high rate of reoffending felons. Roy may not be the perfect warden but he's making par at least.

[factotum]

Wouldn't murdering Belkar (and a trial consisting only of the Order ending in his death is murder, they have no jurisdiction and its incredibly biased) be just as Lawful Evil?


Partially--murdering someone just because doing that is easier than trying to deal fairly with them is pretty much textbook Evil. Not sure whether it would count as Lawful or not, though.

[Lvl45DM!]

Partially--murdering someone just because doing that is easier than trying to deal fairly with them is pretty much textbook Evil. Not sure whether it would count as Lawful or not, though.

Hrm. Well its for the betterment of society as a whole and relies solely on Roy's status as self appointed judge and jury. Its kinda Lawful at least.
Chaotic Evil wouldn't need a reason
Neutral Evil would only do it if it benefitted THEM personally.

[King of Nowhere]

on the other hand, murdering someone because he will murder innocents otherwise, and you have no other way to stop him, is something a chaotic good vigilante-type may do. The emphasis is always on the lack of other option. If you have a well set-up legal system that works and has the power to restrain the guy, you give the guy to the legal system, but if you don't have such a legal system handy and you can only choose between setting free an unrepentant mass murderer or killing him, what's the good action? allowing a pshycoo with superpowers to destroy whole villages?

[Lvl45DM!]

on the other hand, murdering someone because he will murder innocents otherwise, and you have no other way to stop him, is something a chaotic good vigilante-type may do. The emphasis is always on the lack of other option. If you have a well set-up legal system that works and has the power to restrain the guy, you give the guy to the legal system, but if you don't have such a legal system handy and you can only choose between setting free an unrepentant mass murderer or killing him, what's the good action? allowing a pshycoo with superpowers to destroy whole villages?

But thats not the only option. Theres the option Roy has picked, which is force Belkar to fight for Good and prevent him doing Evil.

[littlebum2002]

on the other hand, murdering someone because he will murder innocents otherwise, and you have no other way to stop him, is something a chaotic good vigilante-type may do. The emphasis is always on the lack of other option. If you have a well set-up legal system that works and has the power to restrain the guy, you give the guy to the legal system, but if you don't have such a legal system handy and you can only choose between setting free an unrepentant mass murderer or killing him, what's the good action? allowing a pshycoo with superpowers to destroy whole villages?

But you don't have 2 options, you have 3 options

1) Let him go
2) slit his throat
3) take responsibility for him and make sure he changes his ways, or else

So the only reason you would take #2 is because it's more convenient than taking #3, which makes it a pretty Evil decision.

[Lvl45DM!]

But you don't have 2 options, you have 3 options

1) Let him go
2) slit his throat
3) take responsibility for him and make sure he changes his ways, or else

So the only reason you would take #2 is because it's more convenient than taking #3, which makes it a pretty Evil decision.

This guy said it better than me :smallbiggrin:

[Porthos]

If that's actually Roy's reasoning, than he should have said that to the deva instead of all that stuff about being a prison warden. He also should have accepted it as just when she replied, "In light of your asserted dedication to the idea of the ends justifying the means, I'll be sending your case over to the Lawful Evil afterlife now."

I'm sorry. Did Roy NOT say he was "channel(ing) [Belkar] toward useful purposes" ? :smallconfused:

Preeeeety sure he did. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html) :smalltongue:

The Deva simply called that "a little risky". It is when she pressed the matter a bit more that the whole "prison warden" analogy came up.

Roy even doubled down on the whole "using Belkar" bit when he compared it to a "work release" program while saying he was having Belkar fight an "even greater Evil than himself".

Sure, the Deva was uncomfortable with this. But not enough to auto-send him to Baator.

[Jay R]

Hrm. Well its for the betterment of society as a whole and relies solely on Roy's status as self appointed judge and jury. Its kinda Lawful at least.

He's not a self-appointed judge and jury. That would be Evil. And it's not a bit Lawful to appoint yourself instead of going to a real judge. He's the party leader.

Note also that the Deva specifically said he couldn't just slit Belkar's throat. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html)

[littlebum2002]

I'm sorry. Did Roy NOT say he was "channel(ing) [Belkar] toward useful purposes" ? :smallconfused:

Preeeeety sure he did. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html) :smalltongue:

The Deva simply called that "a little risky". It is when she pressed the matter a bit more that the whole "prison warden" analogy came up.

Roy even doubled down on the whole "using Belkar" bit when he compared it to a "work release" program while saying he was having Belkar fight an "even greater Evil than himself".

Sure, the Deva was uncomfortable with this. But not enough to auto-send him to Baator.

And even the Deva couldn't come up with a better solution. Her best was to keep him in the Azure City prison, and like Roy said, right now he'd be kicking it up with Xykon. Heck, he almost did anyway.

[King of Nowhere]

But you don't have 2 options, you have 3 options

1) Let him go
2) slit his throat
3) take responsibility for him and make sure he changes his ways, or else

So the only reason you would take #2 is because it's more convenient than taking #3, which makes it a pretty Evil decision.

Yes, Roy had option 3 available, because roy is strong enough to contain belkar. Therefore, in roy's case, 3 was the right option. Somebody who is not as strong as roy would only have options 1 and 2.
What I'm trying to argue there is that good and evil, law and chaos, do not exhist in a vacuum, but are strongly dependent on "what else you could have done", which depends on who you are, what are your capabilities, where you are, what people/organizations you can reasobaly contact, etc. You can't just say "doing X is good, doing Y is evil" without taking into account the actual circumstances
EDIT: Also, you have to take attitude into account. Somebody argued that it is lawful evil for roy to use belkar to fight a greater evil; it would be if roy were "meh, I don't care if he kills some random peasant schmuck, as long as he fights xykon". But instead roy is "I can make belkar fight xykon AND keep him from killing random paesant schmucks". And yes, he failed at it once, the aforementioned barbarian arena, but still, for roy it is reasonable to believe he can contain belkar, and he is taking care of that. Especially since his only other options are 1) and 2)

[Lvl45DM!]

He's not a self-appointed judge and jury. That would be Evil. And it's not a bit Lawful to appoint yourself instead of going to a real judge. He's the party leader.

Note also that the Deva specifically said he couldn't just slit Belkar's throat. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html)

Im saying it would be Lawful Evil to kill him after a trial. A trial that would consist only the Order due to lack of actual authority figures where Belkar committed most of his crimes. In response to another persons argument that Roy should have "court martialed" Belkar and killed him for his crimes.

[goodpeople25]

Im saying it would be Lawful Evil to kill him after a trial. A trial that would consist only the Order due to lack of actual authority figures where Belkar committed most of his crimes. In response to another persons argument that Roy should have "court martialed" Belkar and killed him for his crimes.
Not saying i disagree with you but what is with the skipping of neutral alignments i have been seeing, ie if someone predicts that belkar won't be CE by the end of the comic i swear some people seem to assume that the person means belkar will turn CG not CN, this argument in general seems to miss/ignore the neutral alignments, ect, ect.
Though this isn't really new i see this on past disscusion threads alot too but it still kinda baffles me.

[Lvl45DM!]

I think killing him is Lawful Evil. Maybe that wouldn't make Roy Lawful Evil, but its a pretty evil act.

[The Giant]

"Is Roy morally justified in traveling with Belkar?"

Thread locked.