Spell-to-Power Erudite, Crystals, Psionics in General

[ThinkMinty]

I've never encountered Psionics in an actual game before, so all I really know about it is that it runs on points rather than spell slots. If someone would like to explain how that works (since it doesn't sound complicated, I just never paid attention), that'd be awesome.

More specifically, I am curious 'bout the StP Erudite, it looks like a very...fun class, from what I've heard, and by fun, I mean it has a broader...spell-ish list, which means less paying attention to what I can/can't have. So, what does it take to build up an StP Erudite, say at...5th, 10th, 15th, and/or 20th level? I'd say something 'bout 1st level, but 1st level D&D is a bit too fragile for my taste, 'specially with d4 HD.

Also, and this is probably a very...dumb question: What do psicrystals do, exactly?

[Brova]

I've never encountered Psionics in an actual game before, so all I really know about it is that it runs on points rather than spell slots. If someone would like to explain how that works (since it doesn't sound complicated, I just never paid attention), that'd be awesome.

So the way psionics works is that instead of having leveled spell slots, you have a big pool of power points to cast your powers. Powers have a base cost of (Power Level * 2) - 1. Powers can be augmented to have a higher level effect by spending more power points.

I personally think this is stupid, but people seem to like it.


More specifically, I am curious 'bout the StP Erudite, it looks like a very...fun class, from what I've heard, and by fun, I mean it has a broader...spell-ish list, which means less paying attention to what I can/can't have. So, what does it take to build up an StP Erudite, say at...5th, 10th, 15th, and/or 20th level? I'd say something 'bout 1st level, but 1st level D&D is a bit too fragile for my taste, 'specially with d4 HD.

Being a StP Erudite is a lot like being a Wizard, except that it is complicated and if your DM lets you get all the powers, you have all the powers. I don't really understand the appeal of playing one rather than playing a Wizard and spending your "fast talk the DM" points to get spells at lower levels (woot animate dead as a 2nd level spell!). Someone else will probably explain why they are totally sweet.


Also, and this is probably a very...dumb question: What do psicrystals do, exactly?

It's like a familiar, except different in varied and important ways that allow you to do different shenanigans with it.

[Malimar]

Also, and this is probably a very...dumb question: What do psicrystals do, exactly?

The main purpose of a psicrystal in most real games, AFAICT, has to do with this: to apply a metapsionic feat to a psionic power, you need to expend what's called your psionic focus. Being psionically focused is something any psionic character can do, it takes a Concentration check (as a move action if you have the right feat), and importantly for the subject at hand, you can only be psionically focused once at a time, so you can only apply one metapsionic feat to a power at a time. The relevant thing is there's a feat you can take that lets you make your psicrystal psionically focused, too, allowing you to discharge both focuses to apply two metapsionic feats at a time.

Also, a psicrystal inherits all your skill ranks like a familiar, so you can use your psicrystal to Aid Another you for many of your checks.

There are other shenanigans you can do with a psicrystal, but the above seems to be their main purpose.

[ThinkMinty]

Honestly, a fair amount of the appeal is a fullcaster/manifester that has Glibness on the spell list. Being able to talk my way out of a lot of stuff because I licked a Bard-brain once sounds hilariously fun.

[Brova]

Honestly, a fair amount of the appeal is a fullcaster/manifester that has Glibness on the spell list. Being able to talk my way out of a lot of stuff because I licked a Bard-brain once sounds hilariously fun.

Why not just play a Beguiler then? You get to cast glibness, a bunch of awesome spells, and anything you happen to add to your spell list. And instead of requiring the Expanded Psionics Handbook, Complete Psionic, and a web enhancement, all you need is the Players Handbook II.

[ThinkMinty]

Because there's other appealing aspects, like the hypothetical atrocities one can commit with psionics, or psychic portals, or that weird thing about negating spell components with extra power points I heard 'bout someplace.

[Rubik]

So the way psionics works is that instead of having leveled spell slots, you have a big pool of power points to cast your powers. Powers have a base cost of (Power Level * 2) - 1. Powers can be augmented to have a higher level effect by spending more power points.

I personally think this is stupid, but people seem to like it.I really like augmentation and power points. They feel so much more dynamic, fluid, organic, and natural than chunky-clunky-dunky spell slots.


Being a StP Erudite is a lot like being a Wizard, except that it is complicated and if your DM lets you get all the powers, you have all the powers. I don't really understand the appeal of playing one rather than playing a Wizard and spending your "fast talk the DM" points to get spells at lower levels (woot animate dead as a 2nd level spell!). Someone else will probably explain why they are totally sweet.Wizards are even more complicated than erudites, because you always have to choose which spells to prep every day, and then you have to keep tabs on which spells you've used, whereas with an erudite you only have to know which ones you've used that day and how many power points you've got left.


It's like a familiar, except different in varied and important ways that allow you to do different shenanigans with it.They're also a lot more effective at what they do. They're a lot tougher (a little hardness goes a long way), don't screw you over as badly if they die (no XP loss) and get some really nifty abilities that most familiars don't get (telepathy, the ability to speak, sight without sight, flight, all those awesome construct immunities and abilities, a Climb speed, use as an orbital bombardment array, actual HD, BAB, and feats, and a few others). Plus, psionics is designed around the use of a psicrystal in ways that magic and familiars largely aren't.

[Brova]

Because there's other appealing aspects, like the hypothetical atrocities one can commit with psionics, or psychic portals, or that weird thing about negating spell components with extra power points I heard 'bout someplace.

I mean, I guess. I'm just not impressed by any of the stuff psionics does.


I really like augmentation and power points. They feel so much more dynamic, fluid, organic, and natural than chunky-clunky-dunky spell slots.

I don't understand that at all. For power points to make sense at all, high level powers have to be equivalent to low level powers at some rate. Now I ask you. How many castings of magic missile would I have to give you for one casting of cloudkill? Frankly, that number is literally more than infinity. If you told me that I could give up a casting of cloudkill for at-will magic missile, I would laugh you out of the room. And yet psionics wants you to believe that making that trade in either direction is fair. And to add insult to injury, you wouldn't use your low level powers even if they didn't directly trade off with your high level ones, because to get level appropriate numbers on a low level effect, you have to pay the same cost as you would for level appropriate numbers on a level appropriate effect.


Wizards are even more complicated than erudites, because you always have to choose which spells to prep every day, and then you have to keep tabs on which spells you've used, whereas with an erudite you only have to know which ones you've used that day and how many power points you've got left.

But a Wizard is a core class, as opposed to a web enhancement variant of a splatbook variant of a class from a variant subsystem. It's not that the Erudite is particularly more complex to play (although the mechanic for learning new spells is all kinds of bad design), it's that it is total bull to build.

[Troacctid]

Erudites are easily more complicated than Wizards. Not only do psionics in general have more moving parts than Vancian magic, there are also a bunch of wonky rules that are unique to the Erudite.

[ThinkMinty]

It's not that the Erudite is particularly more complex to play (although the mechanic for learning new spells is all kinds of bad design), it's that it is total bull to build.

So how does one go about building it? All I've gleaned is that it's Int-based and that there's crystals. I assume it's something played Human, but I could be wildly off-base.

[Brova]

So how does one go about building it? All I've gleaned is that it's Int-based and that there's crystals. I assume it's something played Human, but I could be wildly off-base.

So the deal with the Erudite is that you pull out a web enhancement, two splats, and two levels of class variant. And then you're kind of basically a Wizard, but worse and more DM-dependent. And that's the floor. You don't get anything cool like shivering touch or Improved Familiar or Incantatrix. You just get to cast spells. If you found a guy who knows the spell you want.

Now consider what you could do with that level of optimization if you happened to be a core class like the Cleric. You could be a Dweomerkeeper (web enhancement), with Divine Metamagic (one splat), Initiate of Mystra (two splats), and Hathran (same splat as Initiate of Mystra). So while the Erudite is "kind of basically a Wizard", you are rocking Supernatural Spell, free Quicken, an antimagic field you ignore, and circle magic.

It's not that the Erudite is super difficult to build, it's that there is a finite amount of shenanigans that your DM will let you do, and the Erudite burns his entire budget to get to "sort of okay as a Wizard substitute".

[ThinkMinty]

It's not that the Erudite is super difficult to build, it's that there is a finite amount of shenanigans that your DM will let you do, and the Erudite burns his entire budget to get to "sort of okay as a Wizard substitute".

It seems more like an arcane/psionic guy with a single class and a verrrry broad spell/power list, plus...spontaneous casting. I'm aware a lot of people, at least in an optimization discussion, will say that prepared is better, but having all my options all the time is more valuable to me than having a lot of options I gotta guess will be useful later saddled with extra book-keeping...and Wizard's dependence on not getting a book stolen bugs me a lot more than it does other people, I guess. I generally prefer Sorcerer to Wizard over this sort of thing. That, and being able to ignore expensive material components saves gold I can use for buying fancy hats or information, or scrolls I can learn even more fancy magic or crystal brain tricks from.

So anyways, what's it look like, mechanically? Any particular feats needed to really make the StP Erudite shine?

[Draconium]

I don't understand that at all. For power points to make sense at all, high level powers have to be equivalent to low level powers at some rate. Now I ask you. How many castings of magic missile would I have to give you for one casting of cloudkill? Frankly, that number is literally more than infinity. If you told me that I could give up a casting of cloudkill for at-will magic missile, I would laugh you out of the room. And yet psionics wants you to believe that making that trade in either direction is fair. And to add insult to injury, you wouldn't use your low level powers even if they didn't directly trade off with your high level ones, because to get level appropriate numbers on a low level effect, you have to pay the same cost as you would for level appropriate numbers on a level appropriate effect.

The thing is, psionics aren't magic. They don't say, "You have a certain number of spells you can use today, at these power levels." Instead, they say, "You have this much power at your disposal, until you run out of energy." Which, IMO, is a lot more natural-feeling.

Also, while spells do auto-scale some of the time, there is generally a point where the lower-level spells stop being useful. Psionic powers, on the other hand, can be augmented to a higher power level - and while that means no auto-scaling, this also usually means that the limit of their usefulness is dependent on your manifested level only, not in addition to their power level.

[Troacctid]

ISo anyways, what's it look like, mechanically? Any particular feats needed to really make the StP Erudite shine?

There are a few different tacks you can take with psionics. Direct damage. Crowd control. Summoning. Mind control. Shapeshifting. Save-or-dies. All viable, and because you're an Erudite, you can even learn enough powers to be competent in all of them and still have plenty of slots left for utility powers. But since you can only manifest so many unique powers per day, you can't necessarily do all of it at once. You have to think about how conservative to be with your unique powers per day and how quickly you're willing to lock them in. Is it worth manifesting an all-day buff like Inertial Armor when you know that slot is going to go to waste for the rest of the day? How many slots do you need t leave open "just in case"? It's a unique mechanic and it plays a little differently from the casters you might be used to.

Most of the standard psionic feats are just as good on an Erudite as they are on a Psion. Overchannel, Linked Power, etc.

Make sure you pick up Soul Crystal (MoI) as one of your powers once you hit level 13. It gets around the unique powers per day restriction, which is very handy. If you're a Spell-to-Power Erudite, you can get unlimited power points from Mental Pinnacle, assuming you have cognizance crystals or whatever to store them in.

[Bucky]

If you want to go deep with StP Erudite, combine Arcane Fusion (Complete Mage) with your favorite PP recharge trick (e.g. Mental Pinnacle) and enjoy your unlimited sorcerer 4ths that don't count against your powers/day limit.

[Vaz]

Eh Spell to Power Erudite has a lower optimization ceiling than a Psion or Ardent anyway. They don't have the UPD mechanic to get around.

As for Magic Missile being better than Cloudkill? Well, Cloudkill doesn't affect Incorporeal Undead. An augmented (on the fly, as well, you aren't a prepared caster) magic missile won't have any problems with heping you in that fight.

[Troacctid]

Well, Cloudkill doesn't affect Incorporeal Undead.

Or any undead, for that matter.

[ThinkMinty]

Eh Spell to Power Erudite has a lower optimization ceiling than a Psion or Ardent anyway. They don't have the UPD mechanic to get around.

I'm not necessarily in it for the optimization ceiling, 'specially since most games won't let you actually touch the ceiling. "Plenty good enough to be a/the full caster with enough versatility to goof around sometimes while hypothetical other things could be even better in some circumstances" will do, honestly.

That, and I've yet to hear much 'bout how building the StP Erudite...well, actually goes.

[Vhaidara]

The problem is that your question is REALLY broad. It's like asking how to play a wizard. The honest answer is that you play them however you want to. They can do almost literally anything.

So, how about you answer a question for us: what do you want to do with your StP Erudite? Once we know what you want to do, we can recommend powers/spells, feats, and everything else.

[Rubik]

And remember, a StP erudite can learn any arcane spell and any power from the psion/discipline lists, and all divine spells ARE arcane spells.

The Southern Magician feat, Child of Eberron dragon archetype, the Extra Spell (divine spell as an arcane caster) feat, Expanded Knowledge, and Psychic Chirurgery all allow a StP erudite to nab divine-as-arcane spells and any psionic power he wants, even if they're not normally on his available lists. Sanctum Spell even allows you to learn 9th level spells without issue.

So, you basically have access to every single spell and power in the game.

[DMVerdandi]

I'm not necessarily in it for the optimization ceiling, 'specially since most games won't let you actually touch the ceiling. "Plenty good enough to be a/the full caster with enough versatility to goof around sometimes while hypothetical other things could be even better in some circumstances" will do, honestly.

That, and I've yet to hear much 'bout how building the StP Erudite...well, actually goes.

Well, one of the big problems with the stp erudite is that at low levels it has abysmally short range [depth is good though]. In the beginning you are going to have 1-3 powers depending on level. After that it gets better, and you are capable of actually making a difference.

As far as what powers to choose, Personally, I do like the restriction on how many powers one has, because you can organize them thematically.

It's always good to have maybe 1 blast power, and astral construct as permanent go to spells.As a matter of fact, eventually get list of about 5 spells/powers that you KNOW you are going to cast every day, and have them as your foundation.
ultimately You end up with 11 powers, so each one goes a LONG way.
Personally, because of that fact, I think that [shadow] spells are probably the best that an STP erudite can have in that list of mainstays. Shadow conjuration, and shadow evocation have TREMENDOUS depth and range, and even though you end up playing at being a shadow craft mage, think of it as that AND having psionic powers as a backup.

Again, going on theme is also a good thing, because
1. It lets other team members shine for their speciality
2.It lets them know where yours is, and not to even come close.
Teleportation spells for example could be very interesting roleplaying wise, and you could own the battlefield, shifting where your friends are, and where you are, and optimizing the whole group.

Or maybe creation spells, and you use them as a sort of battle engineer, making ramparts here, or a spiky pit there. etc.

Or perhaps you want to use bard spells and understand the effect harmonics has on the mind, or assassin spells, and be a killer.

Now, you CAN do most of that stuff with a wizard, but it lacks the capacity to re-use those powers [Unless you are using a spell point wizard, which is AMAZING btw]
Wizards also have arcane spell failure, and are beholden to books and whatnot. The STP erudite covers for many of the holes that wizards have, while having full access to their spell list, as well as the spell lists of every other arcane caster AND Psions.


Think about wilders, and how they PERMANENTLY are stuck with those powers [outside of psychic reformation that is] and erudites look like a blessing.



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As far as feats go, definitely get psionic meditation, extend power, persist power, and perhaps craft universal item.
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Lastly, the thing about erudite that IMO draws it ahead of the pack is flavor. It doesn't have a lot, but it is essentially someone who can use their mind to essentially learn whatever they want. It's like the perfect savant class. It goes a little farther than the wizard who depends on spell books and cosmic power.

The erudite can essentially see a power or spell, deduce how to do it, and just...channel the math and make it happen.


Favorite 3.5 class [sha'ir,cleric and druid after].

[Sagetim]

Okay, if this is your first psionic character, and the first psionic character your group has encountered...I would suggest going psion or maybe ardent. They're generally easier to build, have easier restrictions (limits on powers known rather than limits on powers per day) and are contained within the two books that have the bulk of psionics material in them (expanded psionics handbook for psion, and complete psionic for ardent).

That said, I am not personally familiar with spell to power erudites. I'm familiar with the one printed in the back of complete psionic, and that one gets, at level 20 11 unique powers per day. Which is why I suggest a psion or an ardent instead. Probably a psion...because you only have to worry about your power points per day, instead of tacking on worrying about unique powers per day in addition to that. It's lower system mastery required. Which is what you want in a thing that you are new to.

One of the best parts of psionics is Astral Construct. It's a first level Shaper power (which means you need to either play a Psion (Shaper) or pick it up via the expanded knowledge feat at level 3 or higher). But for the low low price of a minimum investment of 1 power point, you too can be the temporary owner of a magic murder monkey. The level 1 astral construct has 18 ac. That's amazing at level 1. They make for great little temporary roadblocks for enemies and they can dish out some okay damage. At higher level, the level 1 astral construct is still useful as a distraction, because if it's in the way, an enemy is still going to generally have to kill it, then take another turn to close in/attack your character. Yes, that assumes melee, but most fights I've seen in dnd are pretty melee-ey.

Energy powers are some of your most versatile tricks, because they are generic. When you manifest Energy Ray for example (on the normal psion/wilder list, and thus available to psions of all types from the get go as a first level power) you pick an energy type and make your ranged touch attack. You get 1d6 per power point spent in a flavor of damage based on one of the four elements that you picked when you manifested it: Fire, Cold, Lightning, or Sonic. Most energy powers have a similar effect for their elements- fire does +1 damage per die and when it calls for a save is ref based. Cold deals +1 damage per die and when it has a save is fort based. Lightning tends to be ref based and have a higher dc/bonus to hit vs targets with a lot of metal on. And sonic tends to do -1 damage per die and ignore hardness (and be ref save based when a save is involved). Energy Ray is a nice little touch attack that you can start the game with and rely on regularly because of it's elemental versatility.

There are two limiting factors to be aware of when using psionics that aren't always apparent to people. One of them is that you are limited to your manifester level in how many power points you can spend in a round. This means that if you are a psion 2, and somehow have 20 power points, you can still only spend up to 2 power points on any given power (so, no...you can't just dump them all into a single energy ray to try and ultramurder something).

The second limiting factor is that damage does not scale with psionic powers. I'm pretty sure that applies to spells learned as psionic powers too. But the point is that damage does not scale with psionic powers, rare is the power that lets you deal more than power points spent in dice to damage. And usually the dice are d6's. Mind Thrust is an example that comes to mind that many in the past would rally to cry foul and bitch about, but while it does 1d10 per power point spent, it's a mind effect (making many high level beasties immune), close range, allows a will save to negate entirely, and allows power resistance (the psionic version of SR, and in many settings this means SR applies). So while Mind Thrust has some decent damage dealing potential, it will put you in the thick of combat and has 3 failure options (one of which is being a thing that monsters are regularly immune to at mid to high level, and all undead are).

This is why I prefer Psychic Crush. Sure, it's a higher level power and gives a +4 bonus on the will save to resist, but brutally reducing something to -1 hp vs dealing 9d10 damage seems like a fair trade off to me. I'm not suggesting investing in it...I just like it more.

So, while I haven't seen anyone crying foul at psionics like this recently, it's something to be aware of. I found that usually when people claim that psionics is overpowered (or, psionics is overpowered but magic isn't) it's because they didn't actually read the rules for how psionics works or jumped on the bandwagon of hate.

Oh, one last thing for this post: There are a few tricks to up your manifester level beyond it's normal limit, however they generally don't stack (for example, you can't wild surge and use overchannel at the same time). And the feat based method (overchannel) is super deadly for low level characters. And even at high level probably still very dangerous. Dealing damage to yourself should never be underestimated as a risky move.

[Taveena]

And remember, a StP erudite can learn any arcane spell and any power from the psion/discipline lists, and all divine spells ARE arcane spells.

The Southern Magician feat, Child of Eberron dragon archetype, the Extra Spell (divine spell as an arcane caster) feat, Expanded Knowledge, and Psychic Chirurgery all allow a StP erudite to nab divine-as-arcane spells and any psionic power he wants, even if they're not normally on his available lists. Sanctum Spell even allows you to learn 9th level spells without issue.

So, you basically have access to every single spell and power in the game.

The main issue is that it's incredibly easy - and detestably intended - for a DM to go "No, it needs to be cast as a Divine Spell by default". Extra Spell is frequently interpreted to mean 'from your list'. And finding a Dragon who will let you craft those scrolls is going to be hard. Even Dragon #349's Chameleon Crafting arguably doesn't let you learn a power from those Power Stones as they're not a Discipline Power.

The thing about D&D is that "You learn one additional spell", as far as I know, would default to the standard list you learn spells from unless explicitly stated otherwise, like Expanded Knowledge does. Also, it's worth noting that given a STP Erudite HAS converted the spells to genuine Powers, Psychic Chirurgery can be used for a Psion to just flat-up learn every Spell-based Power on the list (and every NON-spell based power) resulting in a Psion that can manifest every arcane Spell and Power without the Erudite's limit on how many different ones they can do per day. If you're bringing in Chirurgery cheese, Erudite is actually a rather inefficient way to do it.

[Vaz]

Eh. We talking high Optimizing, Ardent gets to break the action economy completely without crafting shenanigans and get infinite PP at 10 and pick up at later levels through his Substitute Powers ACF the ability to pick up Dark Chaos Shuffle (and earlier, the Psychcic Reformation power). In conjunction with meta linked synchroncity and the sense danger power (not danger sense), they can instantly trigger their power to modify their feats as needed to get any power in the game of 8th or lower via expanded knowledge, or use EK to pick up every power with DCS.

They can also Save Game Trick in house and have access to every 'spell', Divine or Arcane, through Wyrm Wizard or Recaster and then an STP Erudite making it a power. That it is now a power means that it can pick up any sub 8th power known through Expanded knowledge, with only 9th level powers known via said StP Erudite (which is picked up via a Planar Binding Mirror Mephit with an Orange Ioun Stone using their SLA (hence componentless) Simulacrum splicing the 9ths into your mind.

Of course, that can be OTT but is available (the Save Game Trick is a favourite of mine, although I rarely use it, other than for the most important fights) from an early level. Just having STP Erudites available in setting means that they can 'learn' spells as powers through the mantles. Mantled Warriors and Wilders cannot because they don't have Substitute Mantle, and Psions can only spells of their discipline, meaning they are limited to Expanded knowledge. Ardent is a full caster with the ability to use metapsifeats without expanding focus.

[Telonius]

One well-known trick for Psicrystals: a two-Power combination, Share Pain and Vigor.

Share Pain is an hours/level power, and it allows another creature to take half of any damage you receive.
Psicrystals have a first-level ability, "Share Power," meaning they can be affected by any power you manifest that affects you. Its hit points are usually half its master's.
Vigor is a minutes/level power, and it gives you 5 temporary hit points. It's (very cheaply) augmentable - for every extra power point you spend, it increases the temporary hit points by 5.

What this amounts to is a (potentially) very big pool of extra hit points. Let's say you manifest Vigor at 5 power points. You get 25 temporary hit points. But you effectively get twice that, since half of any damage you take is going to your (newly-Vigor'd) Psicrystal. Anything dealing damage to you needs to get through 50 temporary hitpoints before it starts cutting into your real supply.

[Segev]

I'm curious what "fast talk the DM points" are used to convince him that animate dead is second level for a Wizard. It only appears that low on the Death Master list, and Death Masters are clearly not Wizards.

The StP Erudite, once you've convinced the DM to let you play the ugly broken mess, is purely within the RAW to let you have whatever arcane spells you can find in the campaign. No fast-talking required, any more than there is for a Wizard to get spells at the actually listed-by-the-rules levels.

[Brova]

The thing is, psionics aren't magic. They don't say, "You have a certain number of spells you can use today, at these power levels." Instead, they say, "You have this much power at your disposal, until you run out of energy." Which, IMO, is a lot more natural-feeling.

That's possible, but it is a worse design. It encourages spamming, it creates trap options, and it punishes you for using low level spells.


Also, while spells do auto-scale some of the time, there is generally a point where the lower-level spells stop being useful. Psionic powers, on the other hand, can be augmented to a higher power level - and while that means no auto-scaling, this also usually means that the limit of their usefulness is dependent on your manifested level only, not in addition to their power level.

Low level spells don't stop being useful because their numbers fall off, they stop being useful because the effect falls off. You wouldn't spend a 9th level spell slot to cast finger of death with level appropriate numbers, because wail of the banshee exists.


The main issue is that it's incredibly easy - and detestably intended - for a DM to go "No, it needs to be cast as a Divine Spell by default". Extra Spell is frequently interpreted to mean 'from your list'. And finding a Dragon who will let you craft those scrolls is going to be hard. Even Dragon #349's Chameleon Crafting arguably doesn't let you learn a power from those Power Stones as they're not a Discipline Power.

Pretty much. The Erudite involves questionable rulings, DM permission, and incredible complexity to use at all. But just being a Cleric/Dweomerkeeper/Hathran or Dread Necromancer/Rainbow Servant or Wizard/Incantatrix doesn't.


I'm curious what "fast talk the DM points" are used to convince him that animate dead is second level for a Wizard. It only appears that low on the Death Master list, and Death Masters are clearly not Wizards.

Wizards can scribe any spell from a scroll to their spellbooks. Per the Rules Compendium, it has to be on their list. animate dead is very much on the Wizard's spell list, and the animate dead on a Death Master scroll is 2nd level. And yes, your DM could totally call BS on that. But the DM could also call BS on the StP Erudite's entire class four times (no we're not using psionics, no we're not using Complete Psionic, no you can't play the variant from the appendix, no you can't play the Web Enhancement variant of that variant).

[Segev]

Difference is, once the DM has allowed the StP Erudite, there's no further word-twisting needed to add all the spells you want.

The DM has to be convinced each time you want a spell from a different list that has a lower level okayed for your wizard's book, because the rules don't say that copying the spell from the scroll translates to the same variant of the spell in your spellbook.

A Death Master's scroll of animate dead would arguably scribe a 4th level animate dead into the wizard's spellbook. Because that's what level it is for a wizard.




This does raise an interesting question, though: Can a wizard use a Death Master's scroll of animate dead when he can cast 2nd level spells, without suffering the caster level check?

[Rubik]

The main issue is that it's incredibly easy - and detestably intended - for a DM to go "No, it needs to be cast as a Divine Spell by default".And is also a houserule. An arcane spell is an arcane spell, no matter how it got that way.

Sure, the spell may be on the druid's list, but a Child of Eberron archetype dragon still has it as an arcane spell, so RAW, it totally works, without even the mildest of RAW quibbles.


Extra Spell is frequently interpreted to mean 'from your list'.Which makes absolutely no sense at all for anyone to take that isn't a sorcerer. The feat not only doesn't even vaguely hint that it must be from your spell list, but it outright states that it's used to gain access to spells you otherwise couldn't.

This is specious reasoning, at best.


And finding a Dragon who will let you craft those scrolls is going to be hard. Even Dragon #349's Chameleon Crafting arguably doesn't let you learn a power from those Power Stones as they're not a Discipline Power.Finding ways to access and control other creatures really isn't hard, and you don't need a scroll to learn a spell, so long as the creature itself is available. A simple calling spell or a Psionic Dominate qualifies, easily. If nothing else, finding someone else to Planar Bind for you is pretty easy, and lots of items exist for this very thing. You can even summon something to Planar Bind for you.

It's really not difficult.


The thing about D&D is that "You learn one additional spell", as far as I know, would default to the standard list you learn spells from unless explicitly stated otherwise, like Expanded Knowledge does.StP erudite says "arcane spell." Cure Light Wounds cast by a bard is an arcane spell, as is Awaken from a Child of Eberron dragon. Houserules exist, but unless the OP says otherwise, they have little place here.

Plus, it is, once again, a specious bit of reasoning on your part.


Also, it's worth noting that given a STP Erudite HAS converted the spells to genuine Powers, Psychic Chirurgery can be used for a Psion to just flat-up learn every Spell-based Power on the list (and every NON-spell based power) resulting in a Psion that can manifest every arcane Spell and Power without the Erudite's limit on how many different ones they can do per day. If you're bringing in Chirurgery cheese, Erudite is actually a rather inefficient way to do it.Not going to argue there. Psions ARE better than erudites.

And if you optimize enough, ardents are even better than that. After all, you only need a level or two and one feat (Supernatural Transformation [Psionics]) to gain full manifesting, all the way up to level 20 and beyond. You just need to pay for enough Psychic Chirurgeries and find alternate ways to boost your power point pool like a madman.

Not to mention that the existence of the StP erudite means that an ardent with mantle power-swapping can put any spell he wants on his mantles as a psionic power anyway.

[thethird]

And remember, a StP erudite can learn any arcane spell and any power from the psion/discipline lists, and all divine spells ARE arcane spells.

The Southern Magician feat, Child of Eberron dragon archetype, the Extra Spell (divine spell as an arcane caster) feat, Expanded Knowledge, and Psychic Chirurgery all allow a StP erudite to nab divine-as-arcane spells and any psionic power he wants, even if they're not normally on his available lists. Sanctum Spell even allows you to learn 9th level spells without issue.

So, you basically have access to every single spell and power in the game.

I always wonder if quite open ended writings of extra spell for wyrm mage or other similar abilities mean that mysteries (that work as spells) are also available.

Still what I like doing is to get a psionic artificer that due to all those methods above can reproduce them all as psionic powers, and have the erudite learn from him, then use psychic chirurgery to a psion or wilder (whih doesn't have UPD)

[Bucky]

The thing about D&D is that "You learn one additional spell", as far as I know, would default to the standard list you learn spells from unless explicitly stated otherwise, like Expanded Knowledge does. Also, it's worth noting that given a STP Erudite HAS converted the spells to genuine Powers, Psychic Chirurgery can be used for a Psion to just flat-up learn every Spell-based Power on the list (and every NON-spell based power) resulting in a Psion that can manifest every arcane Spell and Power without the Erudite's limit on how many different ones they can do per day. If you're bringing in Chirurgery cheese, Erudite is actually a rather inefficient way to do it.

Once again, (greater) Arcane Fusion gives an Erudite access to spells they know (limited for Psions but not Erudites), don't need to prepare in advance, and don't use directly (bypassing the different powers per day limit).

[Troacctid]

Which makes absolutely no sense at all for anyone to take that isn't a sorcerer. The feat not only doesn't even vaguely hint that it must be from your spell list, but it outright states that it's used to gain access to spells you otherwise couldn't.

This is specious reasoning, at best.
There's no language in the feat that specifies the extra spell can be off of any list, and the default rule is that spells you learn have to be off of your class spell list unless otherwise specified.

You also forget that Wizards can't just scribe new spells into their spellbook whenever they want—they have to have access to the spell in written form first. Extra Spell circumvents that restriction. It's not usually useful for Wizards, and it says as much in its description.


Wizards can scribe any spell from a scroll to their spellbooks. Per the Rules Compendium, it has to be on their list. animate dead is very much on the Wizard's spell list, and the animate dead on a Death Master scroll is 2nd level. And yes, your DM could totally call BS on that. But the DM could also call BS on the StP Erudite's entire class four times (no we're not using psionics, no we're not using Complete Psionic, no you can't play the variant from the appendix, no you can't play the Web Enhancement variant of that variant).
There's a difference between getting shut down because you're outside of the allowed sources and getting shut down because your build isn't rules-legal. The DM could also say "No, you can't have an elasmosaurus as your animal companion until 7th level," and that would shut down your 6th level Lapras Druid build. That doesn't mean it isn't your own fault for skirting the rules.

Animate Dead is a 2nd level spell for a Death Master. It's a 4th level spell for a Wizard. You're a Wizard, so you cast it as a 4th level spell. If you can find a rule that says the spell is scribed into your spellbook at the same level as the scroll, then your idea would work, but otherwise, Wizards cast their spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard list as per the standard rules for the class.

[Brova]

Animate Dead is a 2nd level spell for a Death Master. It's a 4th level spell for a Wizard. You're a Wizard, so you cast it as a 4th level spell. If you can find a rule that says the spell is scribed into your spellbook at the same level as the scroll, then your idea would work, but otherwise, Wizards cast their spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard list as per the standard rules for the class.

It's a 4th level spell on the Wizard list. If you happened to be a Wizard/Rainbow Servant who used substitute domain to switch your Good domain to the Envy domain simulacrum would be a 7th level spell for you if you learned it by virtue of it being on the Wizard list, but an 8th level spell if you learned it by virtue of it being on the Envy domain list. The statements in the Rules Compendium determine which spells you can learn. The sources you learn from determine what level those spells are.

[Segev]

It's a 4th level spell on the Wizard list. If you happened to be a Wizard/Rainbow Servant who used substitute domain to switch your Good domain to the Envy domain simulacrum would be a 7th level spell for you if you learned it by virtue of it being on the Wizard list, but an 8th level spell if you learned it by virtue of it being on the Envy domain list. The statements in the Rules Compendium determine which spells you can learn. The sources you learn from determine what level those spells are.

You have not provided support for the bolded portion of your assertion.

The correct conclusion from the rest of your evidence is that the source that grants you the ability to cast the spell determines the level of the spell.

The scroll does not grant you the ability to cast the spell; your wizard spell list does. It is 4th level for you.

[Rubik]

There's no language in the feat that specifies the extra spell can be off of any list, and the default rule is that spells you learn have to be off of your class spell list unless otherwise specified.Except it does explicitly state that you can get a spell that you otherwise couldn't, with no qualifiers.

But still, the feat makes absolutely no sense on most classes, unless they're a restricted-list caster. That DOES make sense, I suppose, but not on any of the T1s.


You also forget that Wizards can't just scribe new spells into their spellbook whenever they want—they have to have access to the spell in written form first. Extra Spell circumvents that restriction. It's not usually useful for Wizards, and it says as much in its description.Leveling up nabs a wizard any spell they qualify for (including occasional divine spells, if they have certain options available, such as domain wizards). Plus, we're talking about a StP erudite, here. There are lots of ways for an otherwise divine spell to qualify as a spell they can get. The bardic spell list alone has quite a few divine spells as arcane spells. CoE dragons have the entire druid list at their disposal. Even regular dragons have cleric-spells-cast-as-a-sorcerer.

And since StP erudites have no restrictions on which classes they can learn from, and the only restrictions are spell level and the fact that the spells must be arcane...


There's a difference between getting shut down because you're outside of the allowed sources and getting shut down because your build isn't rules-legal. The DM could also say "No, you can't have an elasmosaurus as your animal companion until 7th level," and that would shut down your 6th level Lapras Druid build. That doesn't mean it isn't your own fault for skirting the rules.Extra Spell might be vaguely questionable, but the rest of it isn't. It's not like restricting one feat is going to cause problems, considering all the options available.


Animate Dead is a 2nd level spell for a Death Master. It's a 4th level spell for a Wizard. You're a Wizard, so you cast it as a 4th level spell. If you can find a rule that says the spell is scribed into your spellbook at the same level as the scroll, then your idea would work, but otherwise, Wizards cast their spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard list as per the standard rules for the class.I think a wizard would probably be able to learn it at the lower level, actually. Wizards can learn Animate Dead, and the default is 4th level for them, but I don't believe there are any restrictions keeping them from learning a spell on their list at a lower level if they found an arcane scroll of it that way.

And a StP erudite has no problems with the 2nd level Animate Dead in any case, so long as it is, indeed, arcane in nature.

[atemu1234]

I'm curious what "fast talk the DM points" are used to convince him that animate dead is second level for a Wizard. It only appears that low on the Death Master list, and Death Masters are clearly not Wizards.

The StP Erudite, once you've convinced the DM to let you play the ugly broken mess, is purely within the RAW to let you have whatever arcane spells you can find in the campaign. No fast-talking required, any more than there is for a Wizard to get spells at the actually listed-by-the-rules levels.

That point is moot, as Death Masters cast arcane spells, which is all StP erudites need. The web enhancement says any arcane spell, not specified for S/W spells.

[Taveena]

Which makes absolutely no sense at all for anyone to take that isn't a sorcerer. The feat not only doesn't even vaguely hint that it must be from your spell list, but it outright states that it's used to gain access to spells you otherwise couldn't.


You say this like there aren't a dozen other godawful feats in core. Apart from Sorcerers it's also useful for Bards, and a Wizard can take it to add another spell to their book. It's a terrible feat choice, but if it doesn't SAY, like Expanded Knowledge does, that you can explicitly grab off-list options, then that's not the default, is it?

[Segev]

That point is moot, as Death Masters cast arcane spells, which is all StP erudites need. The web enhancement says any arcane spell, not specified for S/W spells.

You are correct in that StP Erudites can get animate dead as a 2nd level spell for that reason.

The point isn't moot, however, as I was addressing a claim that a wizard can do the same thing.

[Troacctid]

It's a 4th level spell on the Wizard list.

Yes, and since you're casting it off of the Wizard list, it's a 4th level spell for you. You also copied it into your spellbook using a Wizard class feature, which was only possible because you identified it as a Wizard spell. I don't see any rules to suggest the level of the spell on the scroll you originally copied it from has any bearing on the level you cast it at, so your position here would appear to be a non-RAW one.

[Brova]

Yes, and since you're casting it off of the Wizard list, it's a 4th level spell for you. You also copied it into your spellbook using a Wizard class feature, which was only possible because you identified it as a Wizard spell. I don't see any rules to suggest the level of the spell on the scroll you originally copied it from has any bearing on the level you cast it at, so your position here would appear to be a non-RAW one.

No, you're casting it out of your spellbook. The set of spells Wizards can learn is (per the Rules Compendium) those spells on the Wizard list. animate dead is on the Wizard list. Just as you would learn it as a 3rd level spell if you happened to be a Rainbow Servant who worshiped Wee Jas and used substitute domain to replace one of his Rainbow Servant domains with the Death domain and tried to learn animate dead as a level up spell, you learn it as a 2nd level spell if you happened to find a scroll crafted by a Death Master.

And there's nothing to indicate your point is correct either. Just as there's nothing to indicate from the Erudite's perspective that "divine spell" means "spell that is cast as divine" rather than "spell on a divine caster's list".

[Troacctid]

And there's nothing to indicate your point is correct either. Just as there's nothing to indicate from the Erudite's perspective that "divine spell" means "spell that is cast as divine" rather than "spell on a divine caster's list".

"A wizard casts arcane spells (the same type of spells available to sorcerers and bards), which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list."

The general rule is that you draw from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. In the absence of any specific exception, the general rule prevails. Rainbow Servant provides an exception, Wyrm Wizard provides an exception, the spell research rules provide an exception...I can't find any exception for off-class scrolls, though.

[ExLibrisMortis]

A useful note about erudites in general: "an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day" (emphasis mine). When the table tells you you get two unique powers per day, that's two of each power level you know; you get two unique first-level powers, and two unique second-level powers (if you can manifest those).

At first level, it's not a big deal, but later on, it's the difference between 11 and 99 unique powers per day.

[Brova]

"A wizard casts arcane spells (the same type of spells available to sorcerers and bards), which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list."

The general rule is that you draw from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. In the absence of any specific exception, the general rule prevails. Rainbow Servant provides an exception, Wyrm Wizard provides an exception, the spell research rules provide an exception...I can't find any exception for off-class scrolls, though.

Yes. animate dead is a spell on the Sorcerer/Wizard list. It's right there, in the section on 4th level spells and the subsection on Necromancy spells. It's still a spell on the Sorcerer/Wizard list if it happens to be 2nd level and on a scroll crafted by a Death Master.

But there's nothing there that indicates that you cast spells at the levels they appear on in the Sorcerer/Wizard list. Just that they have to be there. You're assuming a rule where none exists.

[DMVerdandi]

A useful note about erudites in general: "an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day" (emphasis mine). When the table tells you you get two unique powers per day, that's two of each power level you know; you get two unique first-level powers, and two unique second-level powers (if you can manifest those).

At first level, it's not a big deal, but later on, it's the difference between 11 and 99 unique powers per day.

I think most find that to be quite overpowered, so you are likely to have your DM ban it [if he even let you play an STP erudite in the first place.]

In the case of DM intervention, the best thing to do is first ask for +4 UPPD at level one.
If need be, make it into a feat [extra unique powers] that gives you 4 more, but can only be taken once at level 1.

If you do that, almost the whole problem with the erudite is solved.
Or you could do it as a 1 for 1 type of trade.
One extra for one feat.

[Segev]

Yes. animate dead is a spell on the Sorcerer/Wizard list. It's right there, in the section on 4th level spells and the subsection on Necromancy spells. It's still a spell on the Sorcerer/Wizard list if it happens to be 2nd level and on a scroll crafted by a Death Master.

But there's nothing there that indicates that you cast spells at the levels they appear on in the Sorcerer/Wizard list. Just that they have to be there. You're assuming a rule where none exists.

There is absolutely something that indicates that you cast spells at the levels they appear on the Sorcerer/Wizard list: the fact that that list is what lets you cast the spells and the spells are given a listed level.

Your argument is like saying that just because you're given a hit die doesn't mean there's anything to indicate what kind of die you roll to determine your hp.

[Brova]

There is absolutely something that indicates that you cast spells at the levels they appear on the Sorcerer/Wizard list: the fact that that list is what lets you cast the spells and the spells are given a listed level.

No, that lets you learn the spells. Them being in your spellbook (or on your list of spells known, if you happen to be a Sorcerer) is what lets you cast them.

[Segev]

No, that lets you learn the spells. Them being in your spellbook (or on your list of spells known, if you happen to be a Sorcerer) is what lets you cast them.

By that logic, there's nothing that specifies what level the spells are cast as when you learn them freely, leveling up.

You're trying to split a hair so fine that there's nothing left, here.

Your argument is inconsistent.

The consistent way to look at it is that the spell, if you can cast it using wizard class features, uses the wizard list's spell level, unless there is something that specifically says otherwise.

[Sagetim]

A useful note about erudites in general: "an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day" (emphasis mine). When the table tells you you get two unique powers per day, that's two of each power level you know; you get two unique first-level powers, and two unique second-level powers (if you can manifest those).

At first level, it's not a big deal, but later on, it's the difference between 11 and 99 unique powers per day.

Oh, huh...so it is. I probably overlooked that because the example given is an erudite limited to first level powers instead of giving...say...a second example so that someone reading it gets an idea for how it operates at different levels.

For anyone commenting on this mention, Libris is talking about the Erudite from the back of the complete psionics book.

[ThinkMinty]

A useful note about erudites in general: "an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day" (emphasis mine). When the table tells you you get two unique powers per day, that's two of each power level you know; you get two unique first-level powers, and two unique second-level powers (if you can manifest those).

At first level, it's not a big deal, but later on, it's the difference between 11 and 99 unique powers per day.

I went into Complete Psionics to check this, and yeah, it says:


Complete Psionic, p153

Unlike a psion, an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day from, the repertoire of powers he knows, according to his class level.

So the peak isn't eleven of all your powers/day it's eleven per level/day. Much more manageable, and at that point, it's probably more of a headache-reducing feature than a headache-inducing one...for the Erudite, anyways. It's worded with mild ambiguity, but you'd have to be specifically angling to gimp the class by saying per day means per day, not per level per day.

...

So, is this a class played as a Human and/or Elan, or am I some kind of flying brain, or what? Also, despite the rules noting a mild preference for lawfulness, Chaotic-Good Psionic sounds too fun to play after watching sufficient episodes of Psych.

And other than maxing out my Int, what stats would I want to keep in ample supply? Charisma, Wisdom...maybe Con? I'm unsure.

Lastly, as fun as optimization ceilings are, I like the T1/T2 classes so I can contribute even if I space out in a session rather than playing the game for the rest of the party (which is just not fun for them anymore), so I'm fine with being comfortably hella badass than trying to bump myself all the way up to King Munchkin.

[Sagetim]

I went into Complete Psionics to check this, and yeah, it says:



So the peak isn't eleven of all your powers/day it's eleven per level/day. Much more manageable, and at that point, it's probably more of a headache-reducing feature than a headache-inducing one...for the Erudite, anyways. It's worded with mild ambiguity, but you'd have to be specifically angling to gimp the class by saying per day means per day, not per level per day.

...

So, is this a class played as a Human and/or Elan, or am I some kind of flying brain, or what? Also, despite the rules noting a mild preference for lawfulness, Chaotic-Good Psionic sounds too fun to play after watching sufficient episodes of Psych.

And other than maxing out my Int, what stats would I want to keep in ample supply? Charisma, Wisdom...maybe Con? I'm unsure.

Lastly, as fun as optimization ceilings are, I like the T1/T2 classes so I can contribute even if I space out in a session rather than playing the game for the rest of the party (which is just not fun for them anymore), so I'm fine with being comfortably hella badass than trying to bump myself all the way up to King Munchkin.

Erudite is Int based, so that would be your primary stat. After that, it depends on what you want to do. If you're expecting to see heavy combat, dex and con are going to take some priority just to try and survive. If you want to be good out of combat, wisdom and charisma will help with social skills, noticing things, and so on. Strength on an Erudite is like putting the Pope in a sports car: completely unnecessary and probably not serving his purposes or needs very well.

The Psion has a leg up on the Erudite in skill points, having 4+int mod to the Erudite's 2 + int mod (they're both in based manifesters). Erudite suffers from similar problems to the truenamer when it comes to skills- it's mostly knowledge. Psions get a little customizing of their skill list based on their discipline, Erudites are basically guys who know stuff, maybe craft stuff, maybe have the ability to work a proper job, and can find stuff out or figure out writing. As a manifester, you're going to want concentration, knowledge (psionics), and psicraft. As a Psion, that leaves you with one skill free, in addition to int bonus skills, racial extra, etc. As an Erudite, you're already one in the hole in that regard.

[Mato]

I've never encountered Psionics in an actual game before, so all I really know about it is that it runs on points rather than spell slots. If someone would like to explain how that works (since it doesn't sound complicated, I just never paid attention), that'd be awesome.Crash course on psionics.

Powers are cast using (level*2)-1 points and if it's marked with an A you can spend up to a total number of points equal to your manifester level (think cl) buying extra addons. StP Erudite's also have to spend points to increase a spell's effective caster level for damage, think like fireball costs 5pp but only deals 3d6 damage (it's min level), to deal more it's +1pp oer +1cl or +1d6. Spell based save-or-suck/dies of course don't need any extra points. :)

Erudites also learn spells by dealing nonlethal damage to spellcasters, tying them up, and occasionally hitting them with a sap for a few rounds or feeding them so you can copy every spell they know. So you can pretty much build whatever you like.


What do psicrystals do, exactly?They are just another kind of familiar except there are some upgrade options.


And remember, a StP erudite can learn any arcane spell and any power from the psion/discipline lists, and all divine spells ARE arcane spells.

The Southern Magician feat, Child of Eberron dragon archetype, the Extra Spell (divine spell as an arcane caster) feat, Expanded Knowledge, and Psychic Chirurgery all allow a StP erudite to nab divine-as-arcane spells and any psionic power he wants, even if they're not normally on his available lists. Sanctum Spell even allows you to learn 9th level spells without issue.

So, you basically have access to every single spell and power in the game.Southern magician only changes spells when they are cast not when they are prepared or known, extra spell does not allow you to cross list, psychic chirurgery only works on transferring powers not the erudite's spells that are treated as disciple powers only for the purposes of using their learning mechanic, and complete arcane indirect mention of spellcasting requirements are based solely off your class level was proven to apply to everything as off the game rule update seven years ago.

Also most good aligned true dragons add cleric spells, child of eberron adds druid, and silver pyromancer adds paladin. But ranger and other unique spell lists are not available outside of expanded knowledge. So really, you should have just led with that and left it be.


I went into Complete Psionics to check this, and yeah, it says:

So the peak isn't eleven of all your powers/day it's eleven per level/day.Yep and I want to personally thank you. I love seeing people crack open a rules book and looking for an answer instead of assuming they have one.

[Troacctid]

I went into Complete Psionics to check this, and yeah, it says:


Unlike a psion, an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day from, the repertoire of powers he knows, according to his class level.

So the peak isn't eleven of all your powers/day it's eleven per level/day. Much more manageable, and at that point, it's probably more of a headache-reducing feature than a headache-inducing one...for the Erudite, anyways. It's worded with mild ambiguity, but you'd have to be specifically angling to gimp the class by saying per day means per day, not per level per day.

Yeah, this is a known dysfunction. It's a typo. The "of each level" isn't supposed to be there. Not only does it not make sense from a logical standpoint (why would you get more unique powers per level per day than a Psion gets powers known per level?), it also lacks any kind of reference, because the table only provides a "Unique powers/day" column, not a "Unique powers/level/day" column.

See, what happened with the Erudite was it was originally printed in Dragon #319, right, and it was accompanied by this table here:

http://i.imgur.com/QGsnsIH.png

As you can see, you had a chart with unique powers per day for each level of power you had access to. When the class was updated in Complete Psionic, they decided to change the mechanic so that you would have a total number of unique powers you could manifest each day, regardless of level, and they changed the table to reflect this. However, they forgot to fix the text to match it, so the class refers to a table that no longer exists.

Complete Psionic has a decent crop of errors like this, like how the Xeph Burst feat lets you use your Burst ability three times per day (AKA the same number of times you could already use it without the feat), or how Invest Armor has no duration, or how an Arctine has a speed of 30 feet (4 squares), or how the Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos mantles give a damage bonus to spells, but not powers.

I recommend using unique powers per day as presented in the table in Complete Psionic. It's a more balanced progression.


The Psion has a leg up on the Erudite in skill points, having 4+int mod to the Erudite's 2 + int mod (they're both in based manifesters).

That's incorrect. They both have 2 + Int. It's Wilder that has 4 +Int.

[Brova]

The consistent way to look at it is that the spell, if you can cast it using wizard class features, uses the wizard list's spell level, unless there is something that specifically says otherwise.

What are you talking about?

Wizards just cast spells in their spellbook. There are two ways spells get into their spellbooks. Leveling and being copied from scrolls. There are a bunch of restrictions on what you get from level, but the only one on spells copied from scrolls is that the spell has to appear on the Sorcerer/Wizard list. There's nothing anywhere to imply it's copied at the same level as it appears on the Sorcerer/Wizard list.

There's no inconsistency there. You can cast all the spells in your spellbook, you can copy any spell to your spellbook if you have a scroll of it and it is on the Sorcerer/Wizard list, and spells copied into your spellbook have the same level they do on a scroll. Where is that inconsistent either internally or with explicit RAW?

[Vaz]

No, they cast spells from their spell list, and prepare it from their spellbook. Nothing is preventing you from preparing spells in your book, on your cast list or not. Simply, you cannot cast them, if they are not on your list.

Animate Dead is not available as a 2nd level wizard spell. It is not on your list as a 2nd level spell. You cast from your list; ie 3rd level spell. There is no 2nd level animate dead spell and 3rd level AD spell, there is only AD spell which is cast off the spelllist of the caster; repesctively 2nd and 3rd for Deathmaster and Wizard.

[DMVerdandi]

Yeah, this is a known dysfunction. It's a typo. The "of each level" isn't supposed to be there. Not only does it not make sense from a logical standpoint (why would you get more unique powers per level per day than a Psion gets powers known per level?), it also lacks any kind of reference, because the table only provides a "Unique powers/day" column, not a "Unique powers/level/day" column.

See, what happened with the Erudite was it was originally printed in Dragon #319, right, and it was accompanied by this table here:

http://i.imgur.com/QGsnsIH.png

As you can see, you had a chart with unique powers per day for each level of power you had access to. When the class was updated in Complete Psionic, they decided to change the mechanic so that you would have a total number of unique powers you could manifest each day, regardless of level, and they changed the table to reflect this. However, they forgot to fix the text to match it, so the class refers to a table that no longer exists.

Complete Psionic has a decent crop of errors like this, like how the Xeph Burst feat lets you use your Burst ability three times per day (AKA the same number of times you could already use it without the feat), or how Invest Armor has no duration, or how an Arctine has a speed of 30 feet (4 squares), or how the Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos mantles give a damage bonus to spells, but not powers.

I recommend using unique powers per day as presented in the table in Complete Psionic. It's a more balanced progression.



That's incorrect. They both have 2 + Int. It's Wilder that has 4 +Int.

Here is the question.

Should we instead be using the Dragon version then, because I don't see too much wrong with using the /4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4 progression.
It becomes a much better psion (which is okay), and with convert spell to power, a MUCH MUCH better wizard (To the point where I can understand people wanting to nerf the heck out of it.).

However, it's not even close to saying it is really 11/11/11/11/11/11/11/11.

In fact in some ways it becomes MORE balanced, simply because you have a limit on how many spells/powers you can manifest from a single level without casting it in a higher slot (Which I think is a mitigating and balancing factor.)



Honestly, now that I have seen it, that is BY FAR the best iteration of the Erudite.
You have 4 powers in a decoherent state at all times until you cast it and lock it in.
Once it is, you manifest them spontaneously, but if you keep learning powers, you become a super Psion. You can cast the exact same number of powers (36), but they can be any 36 until you lock them all in, thus making it the wizard of the psionic classes.


Jeezus, Erudite was already my favorite class. This is my FAVORITE FAVORITE.
Personally, I also feel that it would be less prone to brokenness and TO shenanigans simply because everyone isn't trying to exploit it for its potential, and can instead play a more natural feeling game. You start out with three powers, so you aren't trying to hack the system, and end with a comfortable 36.

Most people probably wouldn't even end up casting 36 different powers/spells [in fact, I am not sure if there really is enough PP to sling that many spells as necessary.]
The real thing is that it gives you the OPTION to manifest 4 powers of one level without the penalty of manifesting it at a higher slot.
Not that you are even going to manifest 36 different powers, but it happens to be your upper limit. It is the direct equivalent of the wizard's slots prepared, It's just SUPER flexible.

Is it T0. Yes.
Is it unplayable and going to break everything, even with STP. Nah. Most people aren't really going to need to cast all of those different powers. They would organize a list of maybe half, and then the other half have open for situational things. Or simply be thematic.

It's at the flexibility level just under a spell point cleric.

[Troacctid]

The problem with the Dragon 319 version is it obsoletes the original Psion. That's not good for balance. You want there to be a meaningful tradeoff. Not "Hey, you know what? Why don't you just go ahead and take unlimited powers known? In exchange, you give up the ability to specialize in a discipline, so instead of picking one, you can learn powers from all of them. Of course, you'll have to wait a little longer to get them. I mean, unless you don't want to wait, in which case you can get them at the normal level. I guess to balance things out, we'll take away your 1st level bonus feat... nope! Just kidding! You actually get an extra bonus feat! Enjoy!" It's grossly overpowered and just generally not well thought-out.

The Erudite's casting mechanic is easy to underestimate. The unique powers per day you get in the Complete Psionic revision is plenty. You have to understand that the Erudite's "I know every power (and maybe every spell too) and can cast them all spontaneously!" mechanic is really powerful. Topping out at 11 UPPD looks strict at first blush, but it ends up working out pretty well. I'd strongly recommend playing it in the intended fashion before trying an alternate version.

(Also I don't know what you're talking about with higher level slots. Psionics don't work that way.)

[ThinkMinty]

Yeah, this is a known dysfunction. It's a typo. The "of each level" isn't supposed to be there. Not only does it not make sense from a logical standpoint (why would you get more unique powers per level per day than a Psion gets powers known per level?), it also lacks any kind of reference, because the table only provides a "Unique powers/day" column, not a "Unique powers/level/day" column.

In what way is RAW a typo, exactly? RAI is different, but that's RAW and it isn't outright contradicted elsewhere, so it counts.

Plus...the difference between 11 and 99 uniques at level 20 is huge, but let's consider some things:


1) At levels people actually play at (IE, not 20), the interpretations break down much differently:
i. CL3: 2 or 4| Why am I level 3, and can only do two distinct magic things in an entire day? Especially as a full manifester. Assuming Int 17/18 at the start (since the class is SAD enough to assume ) and just the class' natural progression (aka, Erudite never learns new powahs without leveling up), I am only ever able to utilize 20% of my knowledge pool in a day. That's...obnoxiously horrible even by the standards of 3rd Level.
ii. CL5: 3 or 9| This gap is still pretty horrendous, and a 5th level full caster/manifester should be, when they still have juice, around as useful as a skillmonkey, albeit in different ways. 3 powers/day leaves me with a blast, a buff, and probably another buff, and that's it. No utility at all, and why not just play a Warlock if it's that restrictive at this level. 3 per level/day, on the other hand, is still snug, but
iii. CL10: 6 or 30| By this level, an Erudite who isn't being outright antagonized by the DM will have an surplus of 30 unique powers, so this restriction does will cut off some of your options no matter what you do. The higher unique/day standard will start to chafe, but in ways that aren't as untenable as a doing swimming with concrete flippers.
iv. CL13: 7 or 49. While I doubt anyone actually needs 49 total unique powers in a day, this is still going to be a hard limit for some of the power levels (2 through 4 especially) rather than a soft ceiling.

2) The low threshold takes this from an actual peer and/or spontaneous counterpart of Wizards...to a gimped, Int-Based Sorcerer with a broader spell-list and a pretty pet rock.

3) The drastically threshold is going to make an Erudite be...very stingy with helping anyone else, including other PCs, by wasting a slot on their needs. This is going to build more resentment towards the Erudite player than the added power of a wider threshold, which lets you give the other (particularly non-caster) players free psychic cookies. This leads to a more POWER OF FRIENDSHIP, less "screw you, we're nominally in a party but we ain't pals" kind of adventure.

4) Higher ceiling encourages you to...actually use the class feature to pick up a few new tricks, which when you can barely use any as it is seems like a waste of experience for a trick you might never get to ever actually use due to your need to have four things to avoid death, one or two solid attacks, and a couple open spots for emergencies.

5) Without the extremely low threshold throttling every choice into an agonizing one, the Erudite can afford to actually do sub-optimal things; which are necessary in a game to...
i. Not look like/be a Munchkin about every decision.
ii. Not take forever making a decision, aka smoothing over turn speed.
iii. Avoid selfishness, which can and will damage party cohesion.
iv. Be useful both in and out of combat, like an actual caster.
v. Far less likely to take drastic, powergrabbing options (like Psionic-Planar Binding so hard you force a Wish economy, get booted, or make rocks fall on the party) that could derail the campaign.

Laconically, the tightest restriction either makes the class unplayable, or asks the player to be a selfish jerk to play it and not die.


Here is the question.

Should we instead be using the Dragon version then, because I don't see too much wrong with using the /4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4 progression.
It becomes a much better psion (which is okay), and with convert spell to power, a MUCH MUCH better wizard (To the point where I can understand people wanting to nerf the heck out of it.).

However, it's not even close to saying it is really 11/11/11/11/11/11/11/11.

In fact in some ways it becomes MORE balanced, simply because you have a limit on how many spells/powers you can manifest from a single level without casting it in a higher slot (Which I think is a mitigating and balancing factor.)



Honestly, now that I have seen it, that is BY FAR the best iteration of the Erudite.
You have 4 powers in a decoherent state at all times until you cast it and lock it in.
Once it is, you manifest them spontaneously, but if you keep learning powers, you become a super Psion. You can cast the exact same number of powers (36), but they can be any 36 until you lock them all in, thus making it the wizard of the psionic classes.


Jeezus, Erudite was already my favorite class. This is my FAVORITE FAVORITE.
Personally, I also feel that it would be less prone to brokenness and TO shenanigans simply because everyone isn't trying to exploit it for its potential, and can instead play a more natural feeling game. You start out with three powers, so you aren't trying to hack the system, and end with a comfortable 36.

Most people probably wouldn't even end up casting 36 different powers/spells [in fact, I am not sure if there really is enough PP to sling that many spells as necessary.]
The real thing is that it gives you the OPTION to manifest 4 powers of one level without the penalty of manifesting it at a higher slot.
Not that you are even going to manifest 36 different powers, but it happens to be your upper limit. It is the direct equivalent of the wizard's slots prepared, It's just SUPER flexible.

Is it T0. Yes.
Is it unplayable and going to break everything, even with STP. Nah. Most people aren't really going to need to cast all of those different powers. They would organize a list of maybe half, and then the other half have open for situational things. Or simply be thematic.

It's at the flexibility level just under a spell point cleric.

This. This I can get behind. 36/day is actually reasonable (99/day is bonkers, but infinitely preferable to 11/day) without being fun-ruiningly restrictive like 11/day is. Do Erudites get bonus unique powers/day like a Wizard's extra spell slots, or is 36 the everyone limit?

And, of course, new day resets all my power selections for the day. I'm digging this version, it's like what 3.5e Sorcerer should've been, but with the added bonus of being a BRAIN WIZARD that can sleep in and then carve a gaping hole in a Froghemoth with MIND BULLETS while every one else is freaking out about the Froghemoth trying to make them into breakfast burritos.

It's very fun to think about all the ways to make the spell list hilariously broad (like an erudite Erudite would have), and taking lower-level versions of things from other lists to keep your costs down, a la the Animate Dead example. Assassin has a few in it's 3rds and 4ths that are crazy-high on other lists, if I recall correctly.

[ThinkMinty]

The problem with the Dragon 319 version is it obsoletes the original Psion.

Yes, and? Ye horrors, a class is mechanically better in enough ways to another one with a similar niche to make one of them look lame! isn't a compelling argument against Erudites; it's an argument to not play original Psion unless you can't play Erudite, StP or otherwise. Warblade is a strictly better Fighter than Fighter, even if some peeps cry {scrubbed} about it. These things happen in 3.5e and other crunchy games.


That's not good for balance. You want there to be a meaningful tradeoff. Not "Hey, you know what? Why don't you just go ahead and take unlimited powers known? In exchange, you give up the ability to specialize in a discipline, so instead of picking one, you can learn powers from all of them. Of course, you'll have to wait a little longer to get them. I mean, unless you don't want to wait, in which case you can get them at the normal level. I guess to balance things out, we'll take away your 1st level bonus feat... nope! Just kidding! You actually get an extra bonus feat! Enjoy!" It's grossly overpowered and just generally not well thought-out.

...how does an Erudite get around the discipline hurdles without either licking brains, licking rocks, or taking a feat? I must've missed something.


The Erudite's casting mechanic is easy to underestimate. The unique powers per day you get in the Complete Psionic revision is plenty. You have to understand that the Erudite's "I know every power (and maybe every spell too) and can cast them all spontaneously!" mechanic is really powerful. Topping out at 11 UPPD looks strict at first blush, but it ends up working out pretty well. I'd strongly recommend playing it in the intended fashion before trying an alternate version.

No DM is ever ever ever going to let you literally dump every spell and power onto your list. That's potentially possible in an optimization vacuum, but entirely ignoring the human component is just obtuse.

11 UPPD cap is hella strict at first blush, and still is with further thought. At that point, you're just a Sorcerer who can learn new spells with brain things.

[Troacctid]

Having a limit of 4 unique powers per level per day is essentially the same as having no limit at all. That's still as many unique powers as a Psion has powers known, which is just not even remotely reasonable.


...how does an Erudite get around the discipline hurdles without either licking brains, licking rocks, or taking a feat? I must've missed something.

There's an ACF that gives them a favored discipline, allowing them to treat its powers as general Psion powers instead of discipline powers.

[DMVerdandi]

The problem with the Dragon 319 version is it obsoletes the original Psion. That's not good for balance. You want there to be a meaningful tradeoff. Not "Hey, you know what? Why don't you just go ahead and take unlimited powers known? In exchange, you give up the ability to specialize in a discipline, so instead of picking one, you can learn powers from all of them. Of course, you'll have to wait a little longer to get them. I mean, unless you don't want to wait, in which case you can get them at the normal level. I guess to balance things out, we'll take away your 1st level bonus feat... nope! Just kidding! You actually get an extra bonus feat! Enjoy!" It's grossly overpowered and just generally not well thought-out.

The Erudite's casting mechanic is easy to underestimate. The unique powers per day you get in the Complete Psionic revision is plenty. You have to understand that the Erudite's "I know every power (and maybe every spell too) and can cast them all spontaneously!" mechanic is really powerful. Topping out at 11 UPPD looks strict at first blush, but it ends up working out pretty well. I'd strongly recommend playing it in the intended fashion before trying an alternate version.

(Also I don't know what you're talking about with higher level slots. Psionics don't work that way.)
What about the wilder though? Let's say that no one is using psychic reformation. The psion has made the wilder obsolete. Yes the wilder can boost it's manifester level with wild surge, but it is generally stuck with the 11 powers that it gets, forever.
And if you end up using psychic reformation with a psion, it's madness.


This also is essentially the argument with the sorcerer and wizard. Or more literally, the spell point sorcerer vs the spell point wizard. There is almost no reason to choose the former outside of fluff. Then the paladin over a cleric, really there is NO competition, or a druid over a ranger.

The things that make them different end up being so trivial, that it becomes silly to actually play as the lesser class.

Would anyone play as the Psion anymore? Honestly? Probably not. And I am okay with that. Perhaps that means,they did it right with the Erudite then. I never understood why some find it necessary for every class that comes out after the PHB to necessarily and significantly weaker than the classes in it. To maintain integrity over greyhawk themes?

Forget greyhawk, then.
There is no reason to take Psion over Erudite anyway. Except when the iteration of the erudite is worse. But it really makes no difference.


------
On the 11 UPPD, I disagree. If it were... perhaps 1 per level [which ends up just being 16 away from what it is in dragon], that would be balanced. 11 makes it hard since you can't really buff, or have enough utility to do what you need to do. You end up resorting to crafting, and using super-flexible powers to make up for your loss in variety, and then you get all that arcane spellsurge garbage to make up for the fact that you are actually gimped.


Finally, On if you can manifest at a higher level slot, Personally I would rule yes, simply because it's still using slots. They are powered by spell points, but I wouldn't see anything wrong with putting a lower level power at a higher level slot. Even if you can't, it's still not TOO much of a a problem.



In what way is RAW a typo, exactly? RAI is different, but that's RAW and it isn't outright contradicted elsewhere, so it counts.

Plus...the difference between 11 and 99 uniques at level 20 is huge, but let's consider some things:


1) At levels people actually play at (IE, not 20), the interpretations break down much differently:
i. CL3: 2 or 4| Why am I level 3, and can only do two distinct magic things in an entire day? Especially as a full manifester. Assuming Int 17/18 at the start (since the class is SAD enough to assume ) and just the class' natural progression (aka, Erudite never learns new powahs without leveling up), I am only ever able to utilize 20% of my knowledge pool in a day. That's...obnoxiously horrible even by the standards of 3rd Level.
ii. CL5: 3 or 9| This gap is still pretty horrendous, and a 5th level full caster/manifester should be, when they still have juice, around as useful as a skillmonkey, albeit in different ways. 3 powers/day leaves me with a blast, a buff, and probably another buff, and that's it. No utility at all, and why not just play a Warlock if it's that restrictive at this level. 3 per level/day, on the other hand, is still snug, but
iii. CL10: 6 or 30| By this level, an Erudite who isn't being outright antagonized by the DM will have an surplus of 30 unique powers, so this restriction does will cut off some of your options no matter what you do. The higher unique/day standard will start to chafe, but in ways that aren't as untenable as a doing swimming with concrete flippers.
iv. CL13: 7 or 49. While I doubt anyone actually needs 49 total unique powers in a day, this is still going to be a hard limit for some of the power levels (2 through 4 especially) rather than a soft ceiling.

2) The low threshold takes this from an actual peer and/or spontaneous counterpart of Wizards...to a gimped, Int-Based Sorcerer with a broader spell-list and a pretty pet rock.

3) The drastically threshold is going to make an Erudite be...very stingy with helping anyone else, including other PCs, by wasting a slot on their needs. This is going to build more resentment towards the Erudite player than the added power of a wider threshold, which lets you give the other (particularly non-caster) players free psychic cookies. This leads to a more POWER OF FRIENDSHIP, less "screw you, we're nominally in a party but we ain't pals" kind of adventure.

4) Higher ceiling encourages you to...actually use the class feature to pick up a few new tricks, which when you can barely use any as it is seems like a waste of experience for a trick you might never get to ever actually use due to your need to have four things to avoid death, one or two solid attacks, and a couple open spots for emergencies.

5) Without the extremely low threshold throttling every choice into an agonizing one, the Erudite can afford to actually do sub-optimal things; which are necessary in a game to...
i. Not look like/be a Munchkin about every decision.
ii. Not take forever making a decision, aka smoothing over turn speed.
iii. Avoid selfishness, which can and will damage party cohesion.
iv. Be useful both in and out of combat, like an actual caster.
v. Far less likely to take drastic, powergrabbing options (like Psionic-Planar Binding so hard you force a Wish economy, get booted, or make rocks fall on the party) that could derail the campaign.

Laconically, the tightest restriction either makes the class unplayable, or asks the player to be a selfish jerk to play it and not die. Good background stuff





This. This I can get behind. 36/day is actually reasonable (99/day is bonkers, but infinitely preferable to 11/day) without being fun-ruiningly restrictive like 11/day is. Do Erudites get bonus unique powers/day like a Wizard's extra spell slots, or is 36 the everyone limit?

And, of course, new day resets all my power selections for the day. I'm digging this version, it's like what 3.5e Sorcerer should've been, but with the added bonus of being a BRAIN WIZARD that can sleep in and then carve a gaping hole in a Froghemoth with MIND BULLETS while every one else is freaking out about the Froghemoth trying to make them into breakfast burritos.

It's very fun to think about all the ways to make the spell list hilariously broad (like an erudite Erudite would have), and taking lower-level versions of things from other lists to keep your costs down, a la the Animate Dead example. Assassin has a few in it's 3rds and 4ths that are crazy-high on other lists, if I recall correctly.
1. They only have 36, but had access to Extra Unique power feat.

2. Agreed with everything you are saying. Instead of forcing you to over-optimize just to be playable, it lets you goof around with all of those powers that you spent money and time learning, rather than having you hunt for the ones that are most useful [cough,broken,cough] and simply using those to death.

The biggest thing is that at low level, that erudite is actually useful and capable, rather than having one spell.
Yes, it's better than a Psion, but a fighter is better than a warrior. There is nothing wrong with improving on the design.

I am going to suggest this one to play from now on. Complete Psi is doable, but it hurts to do it until essentially level 15-20[and even then you are going to be biting the pillow about spells you are forced to take, like as I said earlier shadow spells, and other such things. You just end up being forced into a shadowcraft mage position]

[ThinkMinty]

Having a limit of 4 unique powers per level per day is essentially the same as having no limit at all. That's still more unique powers than a Psion has powers known, which is just not even remotely reasonable.

CL 20 Psion has 36 powers known as per table 2-3 on page 20 of the Expanded Psionics Handbook. CL 20 Dragon-progression Erudite has...36 UPPD at CL20. Those numbers are...the same, not more, unless 36=36 stopped being math. Yes, Erudite knows more tricks than that, which is...kinda the point of Erudite as a class, both in fluff and crunch. An Erudite a psionic scholar with flexibility as the reward of study. 's kinda their...hat, if you will.

4 UPPD/Level is...still a crunchy limit. No limit at all is no limit at all, not "well, I think it's unreasonably high, therefore rhetorical comparisons to infinity".


There's an ACF that gives them a favored discipline, allowing them to treat its powers as general Psion powers instead of discipline powers.

1) What is the name of this ACF? Is it Mantled Erudite or Favored Discipline, by chance?
2) ...what are mantles, in this context? Honestly don't know.
3) As described, that lets you have the powers of one discipline on your allowed list...just like a regular Psion. In-of-itself, that's not better, that's lateral to a Psion. Anything others still requires two Psicraft checks and eight hours of quiet time to acquire.

[DMVerdandi]

2) ...what are mantles, in this context? Honestly don't know.

They are like... Psionic domains.
Ardent is essentially like a psionic cleric, if clerics only casted off of domains.
So they have mantles, which are like different concepts that you gravitate towards mentally.

You pick a couple of mantles as an ardent, and the powers constitute the list that you can learn. They are all thematically integrated.


So, if you wanted chaos,elements,evil mantles, all of the spells that you CAN chose come from those lists. You then [would fluff yourself and]exemplify something like the idea of like the dark elements of pandemonium. Not gaining power from them, but your mind is attracted to those ideas.

[ThinkMinty]

Instead of forcing you to over-optimize just to be playable, it lets you goof around with all of those powers that you spent money and time learning, rather than having you hunt for the ones that are most useful [cough,broken,cough] and simply using those to death.

Yes! Which is the entire point of Erudite, from what I can tell. You learn new stuff like a Wizard, but can spontaneously make things happen because BRAIN MAGIC. I'm still wearing a pointy Hat of Disguise/Greater Hat of Disguise, though. That's just classy.


The biggest thing is that at low level, that erudite is actually useful and capable, rather than having one spell.
Yes, it's better than a Psion, but a fighter is better than a warrior. There is nothing wrong with improving on the design.

Exactly, and playing the better class is more of a "I don't want to be useless when it could be avoided" thing than a "I want to have all the power ever" thing. It's somehow criminal to pay attention to crunch if the class you're playing requires the special effects budget, I guess.

[Segev]

What are you talking about?

Wizards just cast spells in their spellbook. There are two ways spells get into their spellbooks. Leveling and being copied from scrolls. There are a bunch of restrictions on what you get from level, but the only one on spells copied from scrolls is that the spell has to appear on the Sorcerer/Wizard list. There's nothing anywhere to imply it's copied at the same level as it appears on the Sorcerer/Wizard list.

There's no inconsistency there. You can cast all the spells in your spellbook, you can copy any spell to your spellbook if you have a scroll of it and it is on the Sorcerer/Wizard list, and spells copied into your spellbook have the same level they do on a scroll. Where is that inconsistent either internally or with explicit RAW?

Ah, but you also have spells you learn upon level-up. There is no source spellbook, no source scroll, to tell you at what level you cast those spells.

Since you have said that the sor/wiz listed spell level does not actually determine what level the spell is, we can no longer use that to determine at what level a wizard casts spells he learns from leveling up.



OR, we can say that a wizard casts spells from the sor/wiz list at the level that list says they are, and it doesn't matter what level the spell is on the scroll or in the spellbook from which he copied it. This would leave the sor/wiz listed levels as functional and meaningful, as one would expect from the game bothering to have them, and also is consistent.


So we have one version which, if consistently applied, makes the effort of giving levels to spells in the sor/wiz list pointless, causes spells wizards and sorcerers learn upon level-up to have no specified level, and also happens to allow a wizard to cherry-pick the lowest level of arcane spells out there...and another version which uses the rules straight-forwardly and doesn't allow cherry-picking lower-level versions of spells.

And that's giving a LOT of benefit of a doubt to the premise behind the first version, that wizards don't care what level the spell says it is on the sor/wiz list. That does not seem actually supported in the RAW. But even if it is, it leads to dysfunction, while the other reading does not.