The Grandeur of Delusions - A PF Mesmerist Guide

[Novawurmson]

Link to the Guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vGa7fsHbvWNTgPlKlEBJfRYE_vHNKt7dpJHUwiAv4f0/edit?usp=sharing)

I think like most former 3.5/current 3.P players, When I first saw the Mesmerist in the list of classes for Occult Adventures, I immediately thought “Oh, a Pathfinder Beguiler,” and moved on, completely unimpressed.The beguiler was admitted a functional class, but I never really saw the draw. I expected a simple enchantment/illusion based class that a decent Will save would shut down without mercy.

It’s quite the opposite really - a good Mesmerist can shut down your Will save without mercy.

So let’s start over: The Mesmerist is a unique, highly customizable class that can be built to focus on utility/support, secondary damage, defense, party face-ing, or debuffing, and can usually fulfill several of these roles at a time. It’s not numerically the most powerful class in the game, but it will almost always be able to contribute meaningfully to a party.

Thanks for reading this!

Edit: Changed a bit to not speak for others who enjoyed the beguiler :smallsmile:

[Palanan]

Well, I'm probably not a typical 3.P player, but when I saw the playtest for the mesmerist, my first thought was, "Awesome! I have to play this!"

Because I love the beguiler, and played one all too briefly in a 3.P campaign and had nothing but fun with it. Maybe I'm gauche or hopelessly uncool to admit it, but for me the beguiler had flair and then some--and it was that parallel which first caught my interest with the mesmerist.

.

[Vhaidara]

Solid guide. One thing I feel you overlooked though is how easy it is to shut down psychic spellcasting. Yes, you have a great will save. But refresh your memory on the rules of the Intimidate skill.
DC 10+HD+Wis mod = shaken for one round. For every 5 points they beat that by, it's another round.

Shaken locks out emotion components and shuts down towering ego. And there is almost no way to improve that skill DC. Just working off of an average fighter and mesmerist (10 cha and 10 wis respectively), at level 1 it's a +4 check vs DC 11. And that's with minimal investment to the intimidator, while you can't invest anything but wisdom increases.

I seriously think psychic magic deserves an automatic orange rating at best, especially for non-wis based casters.

[Kurald Galain]

Nice title!

...reading now.

[(Un)Inspired]

Solid guide. One thing I feel you overlooked though is how easy it is to shut down psychic spellcasting. Yes, you have a great will save. But refresh your memory on the rules of the Intimidate skill.
DC 10+HD+Wis mod = shaken for one round. For every 5 points they beat that by, it's another round.

Shaken locks out emotion components and shuts down towering ego. And there is almost no way to improve that skill DC. Just working off of an average fighter and mesmerist (10 cha and 10 wis respectively), at level 1 it's a +4 check vs DC 11. And that's with minimal investment to the intimidator, while you can't invest anything but wisdom increases.

I seriously think psychic magic deserves an automatic orange rating at best, especially for non-wis based casters.

You make a good point about how simple the Intimidate DCs are to nail but the Psychic casters are still casters.

With scry and die the only way that a fighter can actually have a turn to attempt to Intimidate a Psychic caster is if the psychic lets them.

Even the Mesmerist, crippled as it is with only sixth level spells, can use Noble Scion/Increased SADness to ensure that the fighter will never win initiative. With such a disable heavy spell list, splooshing the fighter with magic before they can act is fairly simple.

[Ilorin Lorati]

It's just as easy for a psychic caster to mitigate the Emotion Component as it is for an arcane caster to mitigate armor or being grappled. It's something to be prepared for, not cry wolf over.

[Vhaidara]

Those kinds of assumptions are all well and good in theoretical, but practically, it isn't reasonable to just write off a very real threat.

Consider that a level 1 commoner with no ranks can still make the check at a +0. Vs the wis 10 level 1 psychic caster, that's a 50/50 chance that you can literally be turned off for a round by a level 1 commoner yelling at you in a mean voice. And there's a 25% chance it will last 2 rounds (he rolls a 16+).

Bring the unchained skill unlocks into it (which actually make Intimidate optimization a monster of a thing), and you can end up locked out for an entire fight by a single skill check.

[Ilorin Lorati]

By the time the skill unlock becomes relevant, you have the money for a Lesser Logical rod and Logical spell.

[Kurald Galain]

It's just as easy for a psychic caster to mitigate the Emotion Component as it is for an arcane caster to mitigate armor or being grappled. It's something to be prepared for, not cry wolf over.

So how do you prepare for that, then?

Bear in mind that "mitigating armor" for an arcane caster is as easy as casting the 1st-level all-day buff Mage Armor. Now you're probably not going to dip Paladin for three levels, so how else are you going to counter intimidation?

[Ilorin Lorati]

So how do you prepare for that, then?

Bear in mind that "mitigating armor" for an arcane caster is as easy as casting the 1st-level all-day buff Mage Armor. Now you're probably not going to dip Paladin for three levels, so how else are you going to counter intimidation?

Logical Spell and/or a Logical Rod.
Wands, scrolls, or potions of Remove Fear.
Knowing Remove Fear and casting it with a Logical Rod.


There's a pattern here.

[(Un)Inspired]

So how do you prepare for that, then?

Bear in mind that "mitigating armor" for an arcane caster is as easy as casting the 1st-level all-day buff Mage Armor. Now you're probably not going to dip Paladin for three levels, so how else are you going to counter intimidation?

By always winning initiative. CHA SADness+Noble Scion+Linked Reaction+Allure= Amazing initiative rolls and a damn fine chance to act in any given surprise round.

Access to strong divination magic, teleportation and invisibility (all of which the Mesmerist has) further ensure the Mesmerist first strike capabilities.

[Deadkitten]

lets see what feedback I can give...

Amateur Swashbuckler was hit with Errata that took away opportune parry from the options so...yea..

Also since the stare feats augment your painful stare rather than give it an additional ability ability focus could possibly augment the DC's of all your stare feats if you select Painful stare as its choice. That is kinda nifty with compounded pain.

[Slithery D]

By always winning initiative. CHA SADness+Noble Scion+Linked Reaction+Allure= Amazing initiative rolls and a damn fine chance to act in any given surprise round.

Access to strong divination magic, teleportation and invisibility (all of which the Mesmerist has) further ensure the Mesmerist first strike capabilities.

I can't google Linked Reaction or Allure. What are they? And Noble Scion depends on you throwing out 99% of all character concepts.

Let's not oversell mitigation. Drinking potions takes actions and gives up an AoA that might not make sense if you're just affected one round. Logical spell gives up your move action, and makes you give up an AoA and become vulernable to concentration checks for regular damage. Lesser logical rods are only 3k, but that's just going to ensure you can use weak spells or burn a standard action to remove the fear condition if it's going to last multiple rounds.

But yes, it can be mitigated. The best way is to go Psychic and take the Abomination discipline, the second way is to take the Pain discipline and pick Shaken for your first mercy at level 5. At higher level you have buffs that prevent fear (e.g. Greater Heroism) and it quits being much of a concern. One of the way classes other than the Psychic mitigate having their spell casting shut down is having other options - the Mesmerist has 3/4 BAB and his stare/tricks to improve his melee performance until the shaken condition wears off and he can cast a spell if he'd like.

And you and your GM should also be realistic about how often people are going to choose intimidation as a standard action (special builds aside) rather than attack. Do they know you're a psychic caster? Probably not in the first round. Are they within 30' feet? You should be trying to avoid that when possible anyway. Etc. The risks should be fairly in line with those faced by a wizard who has to worry about grappling.

Psychic casting is fairly balanced, you get something (armor, no grapple issue, less obtrusive spell casting) and you give up something (less mobility in combat casting, concern about fear effects).

[Psyren]

Solid guide. One thing I feel you overlooked though is how easy it is to shut down psychic spellcasting. Yes, you have a great will save. But refresh your memory on the rules of the Intimidate skill.
DC 10+HD+Wis mod = shaken for one round. For every 5 points they beat that by, it's another round
....
I seriously think psychic magic deserves an automatic orange rating at best, especially for non-wis based casters.


I keep seeing this and it's really over-blown. For starters, Emotion components are analogous to Somatic components - there are plenty of good spells that lack them (like Suggestion and Dimension Door) so they can't intimidate you out of all your spellcasting unless you're very shoddy with spell selection. Secondly, Remove Fear potions are 50gp a pop, and since Intimidate effects don't stack, you can keep it suppressed for 10 whole minutes per swig with no chance of it coming back. Third and final, Logical Spell (and a rod of same) is a thing that exists just like Still Spell.

The simple truth is that Intimidate is something psychic spellcasters need to be wary of, just like Grapple is something regular spellcasters need to be wary of. It's a way for mundanes (those folks who don't get nice things) to keep psychic casters in check. And there are ways for those casters to beat it, just like regular spellcasters can beat a grapple.

I mean, automatic orange for all psychic casters, really? :smallconfused:

[Ssalarn]

My wife has been having a lot of fun playing the Vexing Daredevil Mesmerist archetype. All of the free feinting feats and the lighter prereqs for stuff like TW Feint combined with self-implanting False Flanker, maybe Shadow Splinter as well, and then using some Dazzling Feints like Sloppy Defenses can make for a really fun Swashbuckler type, and the Mesmerist has some solid spells to back that fighting style up.

[Slithery D]

Another note on Shaken on Psychic casters: The Mesmerist can Touch (Treatment) himself at level 3 to remove this condition as a swift action. I think the Occultist can his focus powers instead of spells until it wears off. For the Spiritualist, arguably the shared consciousness shunt of a mind affecting status as a result of a failed will save should also apply to intimidate affects if you want.

[(Un)Inspired]

I can't google Linked Reaction or Allure. What are they? And Noble Scion depends on you throwing out 99% of all character concepts.

Come on buddy, both Linked Teaction and Allure are not only part of the Mesmerist class, but also very clearly explained in the very guide this thread is based upon.

I'd love to see a proof for your claim that "Noble Scion depends on you throwing out 99% of all character concepts." Unless perhaps you drank too deeply from the well of hyperbole. If that's the case I'd love to hear what percentage of builds actually are thrown out by the feat and why.

[Slithery D]

Come on buddy, both Linked Teaction and Allure are not only part of the Mesmerist class, but also very clearly explained in the very guide this thread is based upon.

I'd love to see a proof for your claim that "Noble Scion depends on you throwing out 99% of all character concepts." Unless perhaps you drank too deeply from the well of hyperbole. If that's the case I'd love to hear what percentage of builds actually are thrown out by the feat and why.

Sorry, I hadn't read the guide yet, I thought that was in reference to general initiative boosters.

99% of backstories don't involve being from a noble family just for min-maxing reasons, that's all. But you don't need this to survive intimidation checks (see commentary above), so you don't have to take this.

---

Regarding spell/feat selections, I agree with the guide that for a spell casting focus it makes a lot of sense to take Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus and work towards Spell Perfection. For a Mesmerist I'd take Enchantment, and pick Quicken, Persist, and Extend metamagic.

The obvious choice for Spell Perfection is Mass Suggestion so you can either Quicken or Persist it, but for a sneaky option I'd suggest go with a free Persisted Cloak of Dreams combined with Compel Alacrity trick. Your DC would be 19+Cha, with two saves required to beat it. Stand next to as many enemies as possible through regular movement and Compel Alacrity, use your stare on anyone proving resistant, coup de grace them all after. Bleeding Stare can be a better than normal feat choice here since used offensively (you go to them) you'll often get a hit in on one them before they fall alseep on their turn, making them a lower priority CDG candidate.

[(Un)Inspired]

Sorry, I hadn't read the guide yet, I thought that was in reference to general initiative boosters.

99% of backstories don't involve being from a noble family just for min-maxing reasons, that's all. But you don't need this to survive intimidation checks (see commentary above), so you don't have to take this.


Again, 99% is a very bold number to claim without any substantiation. How did you get to that exact percentage?

Further, if one looks at the prerequisites for taking the Noble Scion feat, no mention is regarding the nobility of ones family (although I'll grant that the feats benefits reference the characters noble family.)

Seeing as no absolute definitions are laid down for the ways in which the words "noble" and "family" are being used in the feats description I literally cannot imagine a single character backstory for a character that does not include a noble family.

[Psyren]

I think we're conflating things here. Noble Scion has nothing to do with resisting Intimidate; OP brought it up as a way of getting high initiative (i.e. Scion of War.)

And while I agree that it's a nice trick, remember there is an explicit roleplay/setting requirement - "Work with your GM to ensure that your choice is appropriate." So while "the GM might not allow this" is always a potential response, it is more openly called out here, and can even result in your PFS GM ruling no.

TL;DR - I agree any character can potentially take it, but that doesn't mean it will be approved, and the class is fine without it anyways.

[Slithery D]

Again, 99% is a very bold number to claim without any substantiation. How did you get to that exact percentage?

Further, if one looks at the prerequisites for taking the Noble Scion feat, no mention is regarding the nobility of ones family (although I'll grant that the feats benefits reference the characters noble family.)

Seeing as no absolute definitions are laid down for the ways in which the words "noble" and "family" are being used in the feats description I literally cannot imagine a single character backstory for a character that does not include a noble family.

I'm just good at estimating things. For example, I'm pretty sure your chromosome pair count is either 22 or 24.

[Novawurmson]

Keledrath is absolutely correct: Intimidate is an enormous weakness of psychic spellcasters and needs to be addressed. I was going to have a section on it, but I dropped the ball and forgot. I'll add one this week.

However, as several other on the thread have mentioned, there are way of dealing with it, even just in class. From level one, you have access to Mask Misery, which will get you 1d4 rounds of delay/prevention of the shaken condition as a free action. At 3rd level, you get Touch Treatment in full, allowing you to remove the shaken condition 3+Cha mod times per day as a standard action.

But anyway, yes, Intimidate is a huge problem for psychic spellcasters, and yes, I will be addressing ways to get around it.

Edit: Added a section on Intimidate and avoiding it.

Also, Palanan, I changed the introduction to avoid upsetting fans of the beguiler. No offense intended!

[Psyren]

I'm still not on board with your Intimidate section - you are not "locked out of spellcasting" when feared. You're only locked out of spells with an emotion component. There are many that don't have one (just as there are spells without a somatic component) and you can still cast those freely. To best help users of your guide, you should be calling out the ones on the Mesmerist list that don't, since you can cast those without needing Logical Spell.

Also, to address your recommendation, Mark Seifter has stated Androids and other emotionless races cannot provide emotion components. There is a feat that gives Androids emotions, but the good come with the bad (i.e. taking that feat makes you vulnerable again.)

Emotionless Mesmerist spells include, but are not limited to:

Blindness/Deafness
Blur
Command / Greater Command
Suggestion / Mass Suggestion
Dimension Door
Displacement
Geas / Lesser Geas
Irresistible Dance
Mass Charm Monster
Power Word Blind
Denounce
Invigorate / Mass Invigorate
Forbid Action / Greater Forbid Action
Murderous Command
Primal Scream
Steal Voice
Truespeak
Vision of Hell

[Ssalarn]

Emotionless Mesmerist spells include, but are not limited to:

Blindness/Deafness
Blur
Command / Greater Command
Suggestion / Mass Suggestion
Dimension Door
Displacement
Geas / Lesser Geas
Irresistible Dance
Mass Charm Monster
Power Word Blind
Denounce
Invigorate / Mass Invigorate
Forbid Action / Greater Forbid Action
Murderous Command
Primal Scream
Steal Voice
Truespeak
Vision of Hell

That's actually a surprisingly sweet list of emotionless spells. Like, to the point that at least half of those are spells I'd be taking anyway.

[Deadkitten]

Mesmerist are actually pretty good at dealing with fear effects.

Touch treatment is usable as a swift action to remove shaken, frightened at 6th, and cowering and panicked at 10th.

The ability is also SU, so it shouldn't have any hindrances to its use.

[Psyren]

That's actually a surprisingly sweet list of emotionless spells. Like, to the point that at least half of those are spells I'd be taking anyway.

There's even more than that, but I left off some of the ones you probably wouldn't be using in combat (e.g Tongues) which is when being feared is most likely to matter.

The point is that folks are blowing the fear thing way out of proportion like so much else.

[Novawurmson]

lets see what feedback I can give...

Amateur Swashbuckler was hit with Errata that took away opportune parry from the options so...yea..

WHAT. That's total bull. Oh well, made a note in the guide. Thanks


Also since the stare feats augment your painful stare rather than give it an additional ability ability focus could possibly augment the DC's of all your stare feats if you select Painful stare as its choice. That is kinda nifty with compounded pain.

Oh, interesting. I'll add that.


My wife has been having a lot of fun playing the Vexing Daredevil Mesmerist archetype. All of the free feinting feats and the lighter prereqs for stuff like TW Feint combined with self-implanting False Flanker, maybe Shadow Splinter as well, and then using some Dazzling Feints like Sloppy Defenses can make for a really fun Swashbuckler type, and the Mesmerist has some solid spells to back that fighting style up.

Any spells in particular she's liking?


Regarding spell/feat selections, I agree with the guide that for a spell casting focus it makes a lot of sense to take Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus and work towards Spell Perfection. For a Mesmerist I'd take Enchantment, and pick Quicken, Persist, and Extend metamagic.

Persistent is definitely good for the mesmerist - I'll add that


The obvious choice for Spell Perfection is Mass Suggestion so you can either Quicken or Persist it, but for a sneaky option I'd suggest go with a free Persisted Cloak of Dreams combined with Compel Alacrity trick. Your DC would be 19+Cha, with two saves required to beat it. Stand next to as many enemies as possible through regular movement and Compel Alacrity, use your stare on anyone proving resistant, coup de grace them all after. Bleeding Stare can be a better than normal feat choice here since used offensively (you go to them) you'll often get a hit in on one them before they fall alseep on their turn, making them a lower priority CDG candidate.

Interesting, interesting.


Also, to address your recommendation, Mark Seifter has stated Androids and other emotionless races cannot provide emotion components. There is a feat that gives Androids emotions, but the good come with the bad (i.e. taking that feat makes you vulnerable again.)

Is it FAQ/errata or just recommended?




Emotionless Mesmerist spells include, but are not limited to:

Blindness/Deafness
Blur
Command / Greater Command
Suggestion / Mass Suggestion
Dimension Door
Displacement
Geas / Lesser Geas
Irresistible Dance
Mass Charm Monster
Power Word Blind
Denounce
Invigorate / Mass Invigorate
Forbid Action / Greater Forbid Action
Murderous Command
Primal Scream
Steal Voice
Truespeak
Vision of Hell

That's a great list. I'll add it to the guide, thanks!

[Psyren]

Is it FAQ/errata or just recommended?

He didn't "recommend" it - he flat-out stated it:

http://i.imgur.com/5bTGNdo.png

[Novawurmson]

He didn't "recommend" it - he flat-out stated it:

http://i.imgur.com/5bTGNdo.png

It's not FAQ/errata, so it's not RAW, but it's worth noting as RAI. He can say that "emotionless" means you can provide emotion components on spells, but "Emotionless" in the Inner Sea Bestiary only notes a -4 penalty on Sense Motive checks.

Edit: Also, I think he deleted that post. I've tried Googling it, and I can only find people quoting him, not him saying it. I think this is the page (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rn8x&page=2?General-Discussion-Spells-and-Magic) it was originally from, but his post is gone.

[Psyren]

It's your handbook, I can only tell you what he said.

Also - under Wisdom, you still have a reference to emotion components locking you out of spellcasting, which is not the case.

[Ilorin Lorati]

It's not FAQ/errata, so it's not RAW, but it's worth noting as RAI. He can say that "emotionless" means you can provide emotion components on spells, but "Emotionless" in the Inner Sea Bestiary only notes a -4 penalty on Sense Motive checks.

Edit: Also, I think he deleted that post. I've tried Googling it, and I can only find people quoting him, not him saying it. I think this is the page (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rn8x&page=2?General-Discussion-Spells-and-Magic) it was originally from, but his post is gone.

Maybe we can cast Summon Rogue Eidolon to see what's up with that?

[Slithery D]

Regarding intimidation check out Calming armor: swift action to suppress all local emotion affects. Boom, psychic casters without a class ability solutions can buy this.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedClassGuide/gear/armorSpecialAbilities.html

[Vhaidara]

Arguable, actually. Afb, doesn't calm emotions also lock out emotion components?

[meemaas]

It should, since it's not a harmless spell.

[Psyren]

Calm emotions does, but the armor does not cast the spell, it only uses the spell in its construction.

It's a moot point anyway, the armor only calms down "any agitated opponent threatening her."

[Novawurmson]

It's your handbook, I can only tell you what he said.

I think it's as silly as saying that because Dwarves have a racial ability called "Greed" they take a penalty on saving throws against beguiling gift (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/beguiling-gift).

[Race] has an ability called [Name]. Therefore, they suffer [affect that might make sense fluff-wise, but is not even remotely referenced in the ability's description].

Now, if there's something in Occult Adventures that says something like "Creatures immune to mind-affecting effects cannot provide emotion components for spells," I'll cede the point in an instant.


Also - under Wisdom, you still have a reference to emotion components locking you out of spellcasting, which is not the case.

Fixed. Thanks!

[Psyren]

Whereas I think it's silly to state that something that doesn't feel emotions can achieve "a particular emotional state" or feel "desires and animal impulses." And the dwarf example isn't really comparable, because it's not an end-run around an intentional limitation in an entire magic system.

Regardless I do agree with you that it needs to be clarified, but don't be surprised if it is.

[Slithery D]

Calm emotions does, but the armor does not cast the spell, it only uses the spell in its construction.

It's a moot point anyway, the armor only calms down "any agitated opponent threatening her."

I think it's arguable, but you're probably right. Here's my case.


Calming armor is dyed or stained a soothing color, usually blue. As a swift action, the wearer can create a 5-foot aura around her that quiets the emotions of any agitated opponent threatening her. A creature that is raging or under an emotion effect must succeed at a DC 15 Will saving throw or those effects are suppressed (but not dispelled) for as long as the aura persists. The aura can be used up to 10 rounds each day, though the rounds don't need to be consecutive. Ending the aura is a swift action.

The first line is just the fluff on what the designer intended. It's armor, psychic magic didn't exist yet, of course you're going to be using it against those threatening you. But the second line is the actual mechanic benefit, and all it says is that "a creature...under an emotion effect must succeed at a DC 15 Will saving throw or those effects are suppressed." RAW, you must succeed at a will save (which you can choose to fail) to retain your emotion effects.

Alas, it's an aura. While not defined anywhere I can find, most aura affects are bursts or emanations with a duration coming from the caster and it seems "aura" is intended as a generic but not formally defined term for those. Usually those spells/affects apply to the caster as well (Paladin Aura of Good, Holy Aura spell), sometimes (e.g. Cloak of Dreams) they don't affect the caster.

Here the "fluff" line is relevant, it indicates this is intended not affect the caster, so you wouldn't lose your morale or positive emotion affects and can't suppress your negative ones.

But I think it would be fair to use this as a template to design a different version that would have the affect we want.

--BREAK--

So another easy way to "shut down" psychic casters occurred to me - continuous damage, such as this spell:

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/spells/painStrike.html

Psychic casters under this effect would have to always pass a concentration check of 20+half damage(negligible)+spell level, and with a sickened penalty. Or they could sacrifice a move action to bring it down to 10+etc., but this would make it easier for a melee fighter to get in their face and force two concentration checks if they want to cast a spell by casting on the defensive. Not too bad.

Note that this spell and the mass version are bonus spells for the Pain Psychic discipline, which is this week my favorite discipline. They are also early access for the Psychic, he gets them at spell level 2 and 4. It's a Fortitude save, early access, and especially nasty for psychic casters, so I'd expect it to be a standard selection for Psychics who expect to fight other psychic casters.

[Deadkitten]

Silence is a good Spell to know for a Mesmerist since they don't have to worry about verbal components to their spells.

[Novawurmson]

Silence is a good Spell to know for a Mesmerist since they don't have to worry about verbal components to their spells.

Excellent point. Making a note of it.

[Psyren]

Note that some of their spells do still require speech though, e.g. Suggestion.

[Slithery D]

Or telepathy at higher levels.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Concerning the fear/Intimidate problem, I thought of an interesting solution: the Magical Lineage trait.

It lets a single spell count as -1 level for purposes of metamagic. Any psychic spell caster that has access to Remove Fear could select it with this trait, and use Logical spell with it starting at level 1 as a 1st level spell.

It's a bit of a trait/feat/spell known tax, and it takes a full-round action which sucks, but it's another solution, particularly if you're playing mostly at low levels or in a game with little wealth for rods.

[Slithery D]

That's a good catch, but the resource investment and action economy is bad enough on it that I think potions are the way to go, and then only if you're facing 3+ rounds of intimidation.

[Ectar]

Love the guide, man. The class looks sick, and I really like your penalty boxer idea.
I'm having some trouble understanding your Big Trouble build, though. From the situation you give it seems like you're vital striking (with piercing strike without having feinted yet), followed by feinting, followed by another attack.
The closest to that I can figure out is feinting as a move action, activating surprise strike, hitting with vital strike, and getting the follow-up attack at a -5. That still wouldn't let you get Piercing Strike in, though.
Or, I guess you could feint as a move action, activate piercing strike, and then attack. Doesn't let you get the second attack, and you suggest in the guide that surprise strike is much better than piercing strike as soon as you get it.
Unless you're suggesting that as you level up as a vexing daredevil you can activate multiple dazzling feint abilities, but that doesn't seem to be true.
I'd love some clarification regarding this archetype build, please ^__^

[Novawurmson]

From the situation you give it seems like you're vital striking (with piercing strike without having feinted yet), followed by feinting, followed by another attack.
The closest to that I can figure out is feinting as a move action, activating surprise strike, hitting with vital strike, and getting the follow-up attack at a -5. That still wouldn't let you get Piercing Strike in, though.
Or, I guess you could feint as a move action, activate piercing strike, and then attack. Doesn't let you get the second attack, and you suggest in the guide that surprise strike is much better than piercing strike as soon as you get it.
Unless you're suggesting that as you level up as a vexing daredevil you can activate multiple dazzling feint abilities, but that doesn't seem to be true.
I'd love some clarification regarding this archetype build, please ^__^

Anything you're seeing about piercing strike in the build was from my first draft of the build where I somehow thought that piercing strike would turn out to be more damage than surprise strike (which is obviously not the case).

So what you're doing is:
Feint as move action, choosing surprise strike
Vital Strike standard action
If Vital Strike hits, you get the bonus from surprise strike

Interestingly, you can apply multiple dazzling feints on a single attack if you can somehow feint more than once:


At 3rd level, each time a vexing daredevil successfully feints against a creature under the effect of her hypnotic stare, she also chooses one of her dazzling feint benefits to activate.

(Emphasis mine). You can't use the misdirection mesmerist trick (as it contains the sentence "The target doesn't suffer any additional effects that the mesmerist or the subject would cause on a normal feint or Bluff check"), but if you can find another way to feint as a swift action, you could feint (swift), feint (move), Vital Strike (standard) and get two.

Here's a few ways I've found to do that with a quick search, but two of them use non-standard subsystems:

Wave Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/wave-strike-combat)
Moonlight Stalker Feint (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/moonlight-stalker-feint-combat)
Passing Trick (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/passing-trick-combat) (possible action economy problems)
Mythic Improved Feint (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/mythic/mythic-feats/mythic-improved-feint-mythic)
Greater Feint (with the Stamina system) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/stamina-and-combat-tricks-optional-rules)

There's also the Steel Serpent maneuver Rattler's Feint (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/steel-serpent-maneuvers), but it's 4th level.

[Ectar]

Can you feint against a foe while you are invisible?
I can't find anything that specifically prevents it, and it WOULD be useful on enemies that have uncanny dodge and the like.
So you can cast invisibility on yourself, stare down a foe, and move into position on round 1. Round 2 feint as a swift action with moonlight stalker, feint as a move action from improved feint, and you've got 2 dazzling feints to apply to your attack.
If there were some way to attack as a swift action (seems unlikely) the same type of trick would work.
If you want to grab another feat (probably power attack), be human and pick up the trait blood of dragons to gain the requisite low-light vision.

And I am playing with the errata'd version of amateur swashbuckler, so I dropped that to follow this silliness.

1-Blind fight
3-Combat Expertise
5-Moonlight Stalker
7-Intense Pain
9-Vital Strike
11-Moonlight Stalker Feint

Is it good? Probably not. But, I'm amused.
And it comes online just one level after you get greater invisibility, so you can do it several times per combat.

I have a tiny feeling this isn't RAI, but it should work as written, and I like it.

[Novawurmson]

Re: Feinting while invisible. I can't see anything about it, either. After a little thought, I'd allow it as a GM because there are plenty of ways to feint without your opponent seeing you (throwing your voice to make it sound like you're coming from another direction, batting at your opponent's weapon, etc.).

[Coidzor]

It's your handbook, I can only tell you what he said.

Still, it's nice when what he said can be found and verified instead of apparently having been deleted which does raise questions as far as legitimacy.

[Psyren]

Still, it's nice when what he said can be found and verified instead of apparently having been deleted which does raise questions as far as legitimacy.

Sure, I guess. *shrug*

[Vhaidara]

Sure, I guess. *shrug*

For example, to me, that says he was reading forums, posted his opinion, then someone else at Paizo went "Wait, did we decide that's how it works?" and they're in internal discussions.

Because psychic robots and undead shouldn't be crippled on principle. Especially the Androids, who aren't even immune to the effects that lock out emotion components. And yes, having to cast everything through a rod, or with a metamagic feat applied, is crippling.

[Psyren]

For example, to me, that says he was reading forums, posted his opinion, then someone else at Paizo went "Wait, did we decide that's how it works?" and they're in internal discussions.

Because psychic robots and undead shouldn't be crippled on principle. Especially the Androids, who aren't even immune to the effects that lock out emotion components. And yes, having to cast everything through a rod, or with a metamagic feat applied, is crippling.

The wording of the Empathy (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Empathy) racial feat suggests they are immune, because it allows them to be affected by morale and fear effects. If they're not immune then I agree, it's fine, but if they are then that should be a double-edged sword and they should need the feat to use psychic magic.

Fun fact: Undead aren't actually immune to fear (otherwise you couldn't turn them.) They're immune to mind-affecting, but I wouldn't say that means they're incapable of feeling emotions.

[Vhaidara]

Archives is currently feeding me a 404 error, so I'm running off of PFSRD.

And looking at it, I find the source of confusion. Emotionless is not the relevant racial ability here. All that does is -4 to Sense Motive. Relevant here is the Constructed racial trait
Constructed: For the purposes of effects targeting creatures by type (such as a ranger's favored enemy and bane weapons), androids count as both humanoids and constructs. Androids gain a +4 racial bonus on all saving throws against mind-affecting effects, paralysis, poison, and stun effects, are not subject to fatigue or exhaustion, and are immune to disease and sleep effects. Androids can never gain morale bonuses, and are immune to fear effects and all emotion-based effects (2 RP.)

Funny, since that has nothing intrinsically linking it to being emotionless.

As far as the undead thing, IIRC, it comes down to the line about all Fear effects being mind affecting. I've brought up the same argument, and always get the response of turning being a specific overriding the general of undead being immune.

[Psyren]

Archives is currently feeding me a 404 error, so I'm running off of PFSRD.

And looking at it, I find the source of confusion. Emotionless is not the relevant racial ability here. All that does is -4 to Sense Motive. Relevant here is the Constructed racial trait
Constructed: For the purposes of effects targeting creatures by type (such as a ranger's favored enemy and bane weapons), androids count as both humanoids and constructs. Androids gain a +4 racial bonus on all saving throws against mind-affecting effects, paralysis, poison, and stun effects, are not subject to fatigue or exhaustion, and are immune to disease and sleep effects. Androids can never gain morale bonuses, and are immune to fear effects and all emotion-based effects (2 RP.)

Funny, since that has nothing intrinsically linking it to being emotionless.

Ah yes, that's what the immunity is coming from. Regardless, that feat does remove their immunity along with the emotionless quality.

Regardless, I take the viewpoint that if you're immune to emotions you shouldn't be able to provide emotion components.



As far as the undead thing, IIRC, it comes down to the line about all Fear effects being mind affecting. I've brought up the same argument, and always get the response of turning being a specific overriding the general of undead being immune.

Right, I agree it's a specific exception, I just brought it up to demonstrate that there are exceptions at all.

[Ssalarn]

***
Fun fact: Undead aren't actually immune to fear (otherwise you couldn't turn them.) They're immune to mind-affecting, but I wouldn't say that means they're incapable of feeling emotions.

Mark and I actually had a conversation about that back when Paizo reintroduced the language making Intimidate a mind-affecting fear effect that had previously been removed during the conversion from 3.5. Apparently as far as Paizo is concerned, undead cannot feel emotions. That's also why they have some psychic creatures that really should be undead, like the Spiritualist's Phantom, as outsiders instead.

[Novawurmson]

::facepalm:: I can't believe the text for them being immune to emotion-based effects was right above Emotionless. You were right, Psyren. Changing it in the guide now.

[Deadkitten]

Mark and I actually had a conversation about that back when Paizo reintroduced the language making Intimidate a mind-affecting fear effect that had previously been removed during the conversion from 3.5. Apparently as far as Paizo is concerned, undead cannot feel emotions. That's also why they have some psychic creatures that really should be undead, like the Spiritualist's Phantom, as outsiders instead.

This...is kinda rapidly becoming one of those things that they are gonna have to make an official stance on.

[Deadkitten]

Mental Potency (Ex): At 5th level, the mesmerist can affect more powerful creatures or a greater number of creatures than normal with his mental effects. Both the HD limit and the total number of HD affected with each enchantment or illusion spell he casts increase by 1. For enchantment and illusion spells he casts that target a number of creatures greater than one, the number of creatures affected also increases by one (so a spell that targets one creature per level would be affected, but a spell that targets only one creature would not be). For example, a 5thlevel mesmerist could affect 5 HD worth of creatures with sleep, affect 2d4+1 HD worth of creatures with hypnotism, and change the categories for color spray to “3 HD or fewer,” “4 or 5 HD,” and “6 or more HD.” The number of additional HD or creatures increases by an additional 1 for every 5 levels beyond 5th, to a maximum increase of 4 at 20th level.

I don't have a clue how usefull it is but Mental Potency seems to work on both Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation.

Are there any Conjuration or Evocation spells that have an HD limit?

I know the additional number of affected targets part would be usefull to some extent.

[Slithery D]

I don't have a clue how usefull it is but Mental Potency seems to work on both Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation.

Are there any Conjuration or Evocation spells that have an HD limit?

I know the additional number of affected targets part would be usefull to some extent.

The ability specifies Enchantment and Illusion only though?

[Ssalarn]

The ability specifies Enchantment and Illusion only though?

Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation are illusion spells that let you simulate conjuration and evocation spells, so knowing what spells from those schools match the parameters of the ability helps you pick the ones you'll copy as illusions.

[Deadkitten]

Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation are illusion spells that let you simulate conjuration and evocation spells, so knowing what spells from those schools match the parameters of the ability helps you pick the ones you'll copy as illusions.

unfortunately, after doing a search for "HD" in Archives of Nethys' database under the spells section, there seems to be no shenanigans with the ability I brought up and Shadow conjuration/Evocation. From what I could determine from the search, there are no spells you can mimic that would be affected by this ability.

Aww shucks self, it was a good try.:smalltongue:

[Ssalarn]

unfortunately, after doing a search for "HD" in Archives of Nethys' database under the spells section, there seems to be no shenanigans with the ability I brought up and Shadow conjuration/Evocation. From what I could determine from the search, there are no spells you can mimic that would be affected by this ability.

Aww shucks self, it was a good try.:smalltongue:


Yeah, it was worth looking into. Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation are pretty staple spells for illusion focused characters, and it's always nice when you find a new way to squeeze a bit more out of them.

[Vhaidara]

So, had a chance to use the mesmerist pregen in pathfinder society today. Level 7, and despite the fact that paizo can't make a member of their own class, it was fun

Mistakes that were made
I didn't get Manifold Tricks
Mesmerist Tricks were an immediate action to activate
Psycho Surge gave 1d8+2 temp hp. At level 7.
He took Improved feint. And extra mesmerist tricks (which take an immediate to activate and without Manifold tricks)

[Novawurmson]

So, had a chance to use the mesmerist pregen in pathfinder society today. Level 7, and despite the fact that paizo can't make a member of their own class, it was fun

Mistakes that were made
I didn't get Manifold Tricks
Mesmerist Tricks were an immediate action to activate
Psycho Surge gave 1d8+2 temp hp. At level 7.
He took Improved feint. And extra mesmerist tricks (which take an immediate to activate and without Manifold tricks)

Was the immediate-action thing a house rule or just a mistake? Was the Psycho Surge thing just written wrong on the character sheet?

[Vhaidara]

Mistake. Like I said, this was society play. I didn't have a character in the right level range, so I decided to see what paizo could do with the mesmerist.

Psycho surge was almost certainly a copy pasta error from the level 4 pregen

Oh, and disorienting stare applied to hit and damage.

[meschlum]

I don't have a clue how usefull it is but Mental Potency seems to work on both Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation.

Are there any Conjuration or Evocation spells that have an HD limit?

I know the additional number of affected targets part would be usefull to some extent.

Why yes, yes there are. One whole spell chain, at least.

Planar Binding.

Sadly, those are Calling spells, so you need to pull off Shades (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shades) for it to work. That said, going to 22 HD should open up a lot of options...

[GhorrinRedblade]

Love the guide.

One thing about "Big Trouble". Amateur Swashbuckler was a victim of the bloodbath that was last month's round of errata, and OP&R can no longer be chosen as that feat's deed, can it? If not, pick something else, or are we just saying la-la-la-la-I-can't-hear-you with this errata?

Later on,
Ghorrin Redblade

[Novawurmson]

Love the guide.

One thing about "Big Trouble". Amateur Swashbuckler was a victim of the bloodbath that was last month's round of errata, and OP&R can no longer be chosen as that feat's deed, can it? If not, pick something else, or are we just saying la-la-la-la-I-can't-hear-you with this errata?

Later on,
Ghorrin Redblade

It's referenced in the feats section (where I recommend the "I can't hear you" technique), but I should state that in the build as well.

[NeverSleeps]

As somebody who's had his entire staple character type be "Summoning lots of things with Arcane" in 3.x this Mesmerist class has been a bunch of fun for me to build, but I did have one question regarding A specific spell.

Is Instigate Psychic Duel good for Mesmerists? The flavor makes it seem like it would be, on the other hand, I'm having trouble understanding the point of the spell, and what the actual point of entering a psychic duel is. Any thoughts from the folks here?

I'm making a level 17 Mesmerist backup character, and wondered if Instigate would be a good way for me to take out mid-leveled nuisances, or assassinate folks untraceably.


EDIT; I'm posting this in the main forum as it's own thread.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Hmm. Would Noble Scion (War) be an acceptable substitute for Improved Initiative? It allows one to replace use your Charisma instead of Dexterity for initiative; that means that one could convievably rely less on Dexterity. Mesmerists already have a fairly strong reflex save, it means a melee build can rely less on dex.

[Vhaidara]

You still want Dex for AC since you're a front line light armor.

[Arutema]

You still want Dex for AC since you're a front line light armor.

That can be fixed by taking feats or a dip for heavier armor. Psychic spells don't have somatic components, and thus, no failure chance from armor.

[Deadkitten]

You still want Dex for AC since you're a front line light armor.

While they CAN be a frontliner, they are much better suited to being a save or die like Caster since their damage potential is so mediocre.

But then again, your always going to pump CHA over DEX so the good old combo of circlet of persuasion + Noble Scion just gets better. Especially considering you would likely get the circlet at some point anyway.

[Vhaidara]

Taking feats/dips for armor prof: isn't this now making it less efficient than just taking Improved initiative?

Not being a frontliner: the build in question is a melee mesmerist. Melee is pretty much front line by definition, unless you're running a reach build.

[Arutema]

I saw Kitsune briefly mentioned in the guide as a race with a Cha bonus.

They may be worth a special mention for the Kitsune magic racial trait:

Kitsune Magic (Ex/Sp): Kitsune add +1 to the DC of any saving throws against enchantment spells that they cast. Kitsune with a Charisma score of 11 or higher gain the following spell-like ability: 3/day—dancing lights.

+1 to the DC of all enchantment spells is incredible on a class with a spell list as heavy on enchantments as the Mesmerist.

[Novawurmson]

I saw Kitsune briefly mentioned in the guide as a race with a Cha bonus.

They may be worth a special mention for the Kitsune magic racial trait:


+1 to the DC of all enchantment spells is incredible on a class with a spell list as heavy on enchantments as the Mesmerist.

Very nice - a free Spell Focus (enchantment) that stacks with the same.

I also need to add a section about VMC (variant multiclassing), which I think spell-focused Mesmerists especially can benefit from - especially Wizard. Beyond the arcane discoveries that are good for everyone (hello Time Stutter), take a look at these:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-discoveries/arcane-discoveries-paizo/infectious-charms

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-discoveries/arcane-discoveries-paizo/resilient-illusions

[Ninjaxenomorph]

So lately I've been enamored of a melee mesmerist build. A couple questions: would a 14/14/14/10/10/14(16) stat arrangement work for a human with 20-point buy? Strength is a little low, yeah, but it is very possible to compensate for that. Also, would Power Attack and Toughness be an acceptable choice of first level feats for a human? I don't really want to go for the Amateur Swashbuckler.

Also, some observations: I didn't see until this morning that one cannot take a FCB that affects a class feature until you have that feature; so, a human couldn't start taking his racial FCB until level 2. In my case, that means starting with the FCB for an extra hit point; not such a bad thing to be stuck with at level 1. Also, something I pay attention to with weapon choices is 'social acceptability': for example, if your character is going to a fancy dinner party for nobles, you're not going to be hauling your trusty greatsword with you. I like that the mesmerist has available to them a contingency in the form of a sword cane; certainly not the most amazing weapon of all time, but it's certainly something you wouldn't be accosted for carrying, unlike weapons of war such as giant swords and polearms.

[Arutema]

So lately I've been enamored of a melee mesmerist build. A couple questions: would a 14/14/14/10/10/14(16) stat arrangement work for a human with 20-point buy? Strength is a little low, yeah, but it is very possible to compensate for that. Also, would Power Attack and Toughness be an acceptable choice of first level feats for a human? I don't really want to go for the Amateur Swashbuckler.

You need BAB +1 for Power Attack, and as mesmerists start with BAB 0, you don't qualify at level 1. I wouldn't take it that early anyway, as you'll be wanting to actually hit so you can apply painful stare's damage.


Also, some observations: I didn't see until this morning that one cannot take a FCB that affects a class feature until you have that feature; so, a human couldn't start taking his racial FCB until level 2. In my case, that means starting with the FCB for an extra hit point; not such a bad thing to be stuck with at level 1. Also, something I pay attention to with weapon choices is 'social acceptability': for example, if your character is going to a fancy dinner party for nobles, you're not going to be hauling your trusty greatsword with you. I like that the mesmerist has available to them a contingency in the form of a sword cane; certainly not the most amazing weapon of all time, but it's certainly something you wouldn't be accosted for carrying, unlike weapons of war such as giant swords and polearms.

Just keep in mind the DC to notice the swordcane's blade is static. Sure, a DC20 is good at early levels, but at higher levels if you want nobody to know you're armed you're going to have to make that slight of hand check to conceal a dagger.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I meant more in a social sense; usually in whatever setting PF will be run in, carrying a dagger at your side is no problem unless you were supposed to be completely disarmed. Even if people know it's a weapon, it's obviously a backup weapon. Hell, I'm a fan of masterwork clubs to represent canes; the sword cane is just a slight step up.

[Novawurmson]

So lately I've been enamored of a melee mesmerist build. A couple questions: would a 14/14/14/10/10/14(16) stat arrangement work for a human with 20-point buy? Strength is a little low, yeah, but it is very possible to compensate for that. Also, would Power Attack and Toughness be an acceptable choice of first level feats for a human? I don't really want to go for the Amateur Swashbuckler.

Also, some observations: I didn't see until this morning that one cannot take a FCB that affects a class feature until you have that feature; so, a human couldn't start taking his racial FCB until level 2. In my case, that means starting with the FCB for an extra hit point; not such a bad thing to be stuck with at level 1. Also, something I pay attention to with weapon choices is 'social acceptability': for example, if your character is going to a fancy dinner party for nobles, you're not going to be hauling your trusty greatsword with you. I like that the mesmerist has available to them a contingency in the form of a sword cane; certainly not the most amazing weapon of all time, but it's certainly something you wouldn't be accosted for carrying, unlike weapons of war such as giant swords and polearms.

It depends heavily on your group's level of optimization. If there's, say, a barbarian with a greatsword and Power Attack, he's going to be doing way more raw damage at least until you hit level 7 and get painful strike - let's just make no bones about it. If there's, say, a swashbuckler/cavalier/fighter/slayer/ranger etc. with Weapon Focus (rapier) and/or Combat Expertise, you'll be doing fine (i.e. if you're with optimizers, you'll be behind; if everyone builds heavily for fluff, you'll be OK).

Toughness is a fine feat for surviving early levels, but I do like Improved Initiative to thrive at all levels. Have you considered Enforcer+Bludgeoner? Hypnotic Stare+shaken from Intimidate means people would have a -4 to Will saves, meaning you won't have to deal damage to shut opponents down.

As mentioned above, you don't qualify for Power Attack at level 1, but talk to your GM about it - I'd let a player take it.

Regarding the sword cane, you could always just have a sword cane on hand and use whatever you want most of the time. Not a bad idea to have multiple weapons anyway.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I know I wouldn't be the primary damage dealer of the party (a 6-level caster rarely is, unless its a magus), but I think those stats get a fairly good base to start off of; when I build the character I will likely be using rolled stats, which I hope would be a little better. As for weapons, yeah, a sword cane would definitely just be a thing I would carry around in case, though I normally go for the 'it takes a few minutes to completely disarm' approach, even if it only works with characters that have martial weapon proficiency. I'd probably go for a greatsword; that 2d6 is mighty fun, and would somewhat compensate early levels (when it matters most) for lack of an overwhelming strength score. Also, instead of Improved Initiative, I could conceivably get Spell Focus, get started early on a feat chain and pump those DCs. Also, Mental Block is a hilarious save-or-suck spell that mesmerists get as a level 1 spell; it might even be worth Heighten Spell if you build for it right. If you can keep the DC reliable, it seems like an effect that gets better as you level.

And I'd say that someone with that 'low op' build could still be a force to be reckoned with; a human Inspired Blade swashbuckler can pick up Fencing Grace and Combat Expertise at level 1, able to reliably hit for 1d6+dex and have a high chance of blocking hits.

[SilasHiram]

I'm trying to build a Mesmerist to use with my PFS GMing XP that I will mostly play at Conventions, so I want to build a character that can contribute no matter what the party is like. This is the idea I've been working with:

Half orc with Mesmerist FCB. Starting with 20 charisma, dumping strength and with only a +1 dex modifier. Rounds where I'm not casting, I'm going to apply my Painful Stare damage with a wand of Magic Missile that I've UMD'd. Feats go towards initiative (starting with Charisma to Initiative feat), increasing the painful stare, and increasing the power of my spells.

Is this a good build? I'm in a weird place because I've been GMing every week for years but have hardly gotten to play on the other side of the table in that amount of time.

The one thing I absolutely want for this character concept is a Half-Orc, so I am open to an alternative build if someone has any ideas for a convention-friendly mesmerist.

[Arutema]

I'm trying to build a Mesmerist to use with my PFS GMing XP that I will mostly play at Conventions, so I want to build a character that can contribute no matter what the party is like. This is the idea I've been working with:

Half orc with Mesmerist FCB. Starting with 20 charisma, dumping strength and with only a +1 dex modifier. Rounds where I'm not casting, I'm going to apply my Painful Stare damage with a wand of Magic Missile that I've UMD'd. Feats go towards initiative (starting with Charisma to Initiative feat), increasing the painful stare, and increasing the power of my spells.

Is this a good build? I'm in a weird place because I've been GMing every week for years but have hardly gotten to play on the other side of the table in that amount of time.

The one thing I absolutely want for this character concept is a Half-Orc, so I am open to an alternative build if someone has any ideas for a convention-friendly mesmerist.

How much GM credit are you starting with?

I see 3 possible issues with a wand of magic missile. First is the cost per charge, though it is not as bad as a gunslinger firing multiple paper cartridges a round. Second is that you may hit table variation as to whether it counts as "an attack" since there is no attack roll. Finally, there is the risk of rolling a 1 and the wand jamming until you can get +19 UMD.

With only +1 Dex, your AC won't be the greatest unless you take feats or dip for heavier armor proficiencies.

A Str build, taking medium armor prof at 1st might be less risky, and would go well with the half-orc's racial weapon proficiencies.

[SilasHiram]

How much GM credit are you starting with?

I see 3 possible issues with a wand of magic missile. First is the cost per charge, though it is not as bad as a gunslinger firing multiple paper cartridges a round. Second is that you may hit table variation as to whether it counts as "an attack" since there is no attack roll. Finally, there is the risk of rolling a 1 and the wand jamming until you can get +19 UMD.

With only +1 Dex, your AC won't be the greatest unless you take feats or dip for heavier armor proficiencies.

A Str build, taking medium armor prof at 1st might be less risky, and would go well with the half-orc's racial weapon proficiencies.

I'll almost certainly be at least level 3 before I really get an opportunity to play him. I then probably won't play him again until level 6-7ish.

The falchion melee approach is definitely appealing, but I don't know the good balance for a class like the mesmerist between making sure you can be effective in combat, and being decent at casting. Obviously buff spells can be prioritized, but the mesmerist seems to be more of a debuffer than the bard is so need decent charisma. Am I wrong?

[Arutema]

I'll almost certainly be at least level 3 before I really get an opportunity to play him. I then probably won't play him again until level 6-7ish.

The falchion melee approach is definitely appealing, but I don't know the good balance for a class like the mesmerist between making sure you can be effective in combat, and being decent at casting. Obviously buff spells can be prioritized, but the mesmerist seems to be more of a debuffer than the bard is so need decent charisma. Am I wrong?

You are correct. Though with PFS's 20 point buy - you really need to choose between attacking and using painful stare to boost your own damage or high DCs for your debuffs. If you go with high debuff DCs, you may want to forgo attacking entirely and spam low-level debuffs, using painful stare to boost an ally's damage.

I don't think I've ever seen a PFS party short on damage-dealing PCs, so don't feel obligated to bring your own damage-dealer to the table.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

It might be worth mentioning that Create Mindscape and its Greater version can be very useful; the first fills a similar role to Instigate Psychic Duel but with a lot more utility (and normal-ish rules), while Greater can be used to stack a deck against opponents. They are very interesting spells that can be very creatively used.

Edit: Oh, and RAW, the only save is if you want to create a veiled mindscape; and that doesn't negate the spell, only reveal the way out. Not entirely sure on that; nonetheless, with careful applications it could be very fun. So you could create a veiled mindscape of a 10-mile hallway, and have you and the opponent appear on different ends of the hallway. You have the exit side, of course. Or, you could make a room slowly flood with lava; the environment is still harmful! Just embrace your inner supervillain!

Edit 2: Also in your guide, you mention that Vexing Daredevil gets Mesmerizing Feint as a bonus feat, when it only gets the Greater version. I'm not too familiar with the average DCs, but it might be worth it to pick up.

Edit 3: Last thing, I was looking through a list of traits, and there are several good ones for feinting; Dueling Cloak Adept (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/combat-traits/dueling-cloak-adept) is one of them. Decent fluff, and why wouldn't you be wearing a cloak?

[sixteenbiticon]

I made an account just to post this question. My GM approved the usage of pre-errata Amateur Swashbuckler for Opportune Parry & Riposte in your Big Trouble build. That being said, I cannot for the life of me figure out why it would be a worthwhile feat because from everything I've read, you can only regain panache by striking a critical hit or killing blow with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon which obviously the greatsword is not. So, with this build, I start the day with 1 panache and cannot gain any more. So, am I to understand that the purpose of this feat is the ability to parry a single attack once per day and no riposts? Extra Panache would increase this amount to 3 per day and the chance of getting off two riposts, but that seems fairly insignificant for the cost of two feats. Am I wrong?

Thanks for any clarity on this issue!

[Florian]

I made an account just to post this question. My GM approved the usage of pre-errata Amateur Swashbuckler for Opportune Parry & Riposte in your Big Trouble build. That being said, I cannot for the life of me figure out why it would be a worthwhile feat because from everything I've read, you can only regain panache by striking a critical hit or killing blow with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon which obviously the greatsword is not. So, with this build, I start the day with 1 panache and cannot gain any more. So, am I to understand that the purpose of this feat is the ability to parry a single attack once per day and no riposts? Extra Panache would increase this amount to 3 per day and the chance of getting off two riposts, but that seems fairly insignificant for the cost of two feats. Am I wrong?

Thanks for any clarity on this issue!

A player of mine plays practically the same build, based on a Kitsune, just without the extra frills, wielding a rapier. Works, is effective and fun to play. "Big Trouble" seems a bit overly elaborate and, as you noted, not entirely rules-legal.

[sixteenbiticon]

A player of mine plays practically the same build, based on a Kitsune, just without the extra frills, wielding a rapier. Works, is effective and fun to play. "Big Trouble" seems a bit overly elaborate and, as you noted, not entirely rules-legal.

Huh, that's certainly interesting. My GM has approved my use of the DSP Half-Giant race, so I'm trying to get this build to work while keeping the core idea intact. We also get a few feat taxes for free (power attack and combat expertise being the relevant ones here). I'm actually trying to combine the Big Trouble build from this guide with a build I found on reddit:

LV1. Medium Armor Proficiency

LV3. Blind-Fight

LV5. Moonlight Stalker

LV7. Moonlight Stalker Feint

LV9. Power Attack (I get this for free, so I'll take vital strike here)

LV11. Heavy Armor Proficiency

LV13. Furious Focus

I realize Hypnotic Stare and Moonlight Stalker Feint are both swift actions so that is a concern, as well as the fact that I can't combine vital strike and charge (charge being a primary theme of the reddit build, I just removed the fluff comments). This build is for a Reign of Winter (I'm planning on role-playing a half-frost giant) game in which we TPKed on the very first encounter so our GM is encouraging us to beef ourselves up a bit. At this point, since it appears I can't do OP&R with a greatsword, those two feats are simply replaced by the armor proficiencies. Otherwise, I've still got some tinkering to do. Any/all help is very much appreciated.

Edit: I forgot to mention that vital strike adds a whopping 3d6 damage in this instance (large greatsword) so that is certainly something I am trying to build around (much like the author of the guide).

[Florian]

Ugh, Moonlight Stalker.. not a great fan of it.

Think about a one-level dip of (un)Rogue, pick Wave Strike and some Accomplished Sneak Attacker when you´ve got the free feats for it.

[sixteenbiticon]

Ugh, Moonlight Stalker.. not a great fan of it.

Hmmm, not a fan even with free combat expertise and blur at my disposal? The only downside is the 13 INT, but I actually enjoy the bonus skill points. Using the Half-Giant racial bonuses I can make ability the spread work.

[Slithery D]

The new Magic Tactics Toolbox includes this for melee damage focused Mesmerists:
Manifold stare (combat, stare)
Your hypnotic gaze causes tremendous pain in its victims. Prerequisites: Mesmerist level 3rd, painful stare class feature.
Benefit: You can trigger your painful stare one additional time per round.
Special: This feat can be taken once by a 3rd-level mesmerist, and again when he reaches 9th and 15th levels. Its effects stack. A mesmerist can take this feat in place of a bold stare improvementOA.

With TWF or haste you can eventually apply your painful stare to four attacks per round.

[Florian]

The swapping-clause is the interesting part of it, making it viable with a regular short-range archery build.

[Triskavanski]

I don't know why Ready for Battle is considered to be so low. It doesn't scale sure.. But It can give your entire team (How many tricks you have) all +2 to init.

[Novawurmson]

The new Magic Tactics Toolbox includes this for melee damage focused Mesmerists:

With TWF or haste you can eventually apply your painful stare to four attacks per round.

Oooh, that's very good. I'll have to add that to the guide, thanks!


The swapping-clause is the interesting part of it, making it viable with a regular short-range archery build.

Yeah, not digging into the Mesmerist's already tight skills is a big bonus.


I don't know why Ready for Battle is considered to be so low. It doesn't scale sure.. But It can give your entire team (How many tricks you have) all +2 to init.

Eh, I stand by it. It starts of objectively worse than Improved Initiative, and never gets better than a trait for each target. If it was like... a first level spell, it'd be solid, but there are plenty of other feats I'd rather have.

[jff362]

Thanks for the guide!

I'm curious about the Fey Trickster: fun flavor and it takes the class in a very different direction.

What are your thoughts? Anyone play it yet?

[Kurald Galain]

False Flanker - rogues especially love this trick, as it makes their sneak attack go off. This also means that a rogue dip (with accomplished sneak attacker feat) is a good choice for a melee mesmerist, letting you flank with yourself.

Psychosomatic Surge - a useful trick is to implant this between combats and then immediately activate it (by using a weak attack to deal 1 nonlethal damage to your ally). The temp HP last for one hour, and now you can implant another trick for usage in combat.

I think you're undervaluing Shadow Splinter. Causing enemy damage and infighting as a free action is amazing, and you know you've got good save DCs.

Martial Weapon Proficiency - there's a trait (Heirloom Weapon) that does the same thing.

Medium Armor Prof - if you're going the spellcasting route, you can wear armor without being proficient in it. It will only penalize attacks and physical skill checks, so if you're not planning on using those...

[Slithery D]

Martial Weapon Proficiency - there's a trait (Heirloom Weapon) that does the same thing.


Heirloom Weapon only gives benefits with the specific (and non-masterwork so you can't enchant or otherwise upgrade it) weapon you start the game with, not all weapons of that type, so it's definitely not like the feat.

[stack]

Heirloom Weapon only gives benefits with the specific (and non-masterwork so you can't enchant or otherwise upgrade it) weapon you start the game with, not all weapons of that type, so it's definitely not like the feat.

You can upgrade it. Masterwork transformation spell, pay someone to cast it if you lack a caster.

[Kurald Galain]

Heirloom Weapon only gives benefits with the specific (and non-masterwork so you can't enchant or otherwise upgrade it) weapon you start the game with, not all weapons of that type, so it's definitely not like the feat.

What Stack said - have someone cast MW Transform for you. Many characters do spend their entire career with one weapon, so Heirloom Weapon is at least a viable alternative (and a trait is cheaper than a feat, after all).

[Britsky]

Does anyone have any advice on how to actually play a mesmerist? I'm planning on being one but it will be my first time playing any kind of magical character, so what should i be looking to do in combat? what spells? and any neat stuff to do out of combat?

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Do you have any suggestions on playing a vexing daredevil and dealing with mindless creatures? I've seen many people say that Painful Stare is a mind-effecting ability (which by RAW it is not, and is not by my RAI). If a GM interpreted it in that way, would a vexing daredevil have any recourse, or do they just have to suck it up?

[Kurald Galain]

Do you have any suggestions on playing a vexing daredevil and dealing with mindless creatures? I've seen many people say that Painful Stare is a mind-effecting ability (which by RAW it is not, and is not by my RAI). If a GM interpreted it in that way, would a vexing daredevil have any recourse, or do they just have to suck it up?

By RAW this is mostly correct, as "Creatures that are immune to effects that require a Fort save (such as constructs and undead) are immune to pain effects."

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Where's that, Ultimate Magic? Also, Painful Stare isn't a pain effect; yeah, it should be, but then again, hexes are not curse effects either.

[Kurald Galain]

Painful Stare isn't a pain effect

LOL, don't be silly. This is a roleplaying game, not an exercise in bureaucratese.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

As I said, it isn't. If you have an ability that boosts the DC of a pain effect, it would not apply to painful stare. Just like hexes aren't curse effects, even the ones that are specifically called 'curse of _____'.

[Slithery D]

Do you have any suggestions on playing a vexing daredevil and dealing with mindless creatures? I've seen many people say that Painful Stare is a mind-effecting ability (which by RAW it is not, and is not by my RAI). If a GM interpreted it in that way, would a vexing daredevil have any recourse, or do they just have to suck it up?

It doesn't matter if Painful Stare is a mind-affecting ability or a pain effect.
Painful Stare (Su): When an attack that deals damage hits the target of a mesmerist’s hypnotic stare

Hypnotic Stare itself is a mind-affecting effect. If you can't target it with Hypnotic Stare, you can't affect it with Painful Stare. So things immune to mind-affecting are immune to Painful Stare through immunity to Hypnotic Stare.

I suppose you could find a bad GM who would let you "target" something immune to the ability and tack on the Painful Stare rider, in which case enjoy bashing down doors better than anyone else, too.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

But you can target any creature with hypnotic stare. At 10th level, the vexing daredevil receives Greater Mesmerizing Feint as a bonus feat, explicitly ignoring the prerequisites (which include the psychic inception bold stare, which vexing daredevils cannot get). It says that the subject of your hypnotic stare may be fainted, even though it cannot normally be done. If a mesmerist cannot target an immune creature with their stare, then the bonus feat is useless.

[Kurald Galain]

"X must be true because otherwise ability Y is bad" is a fallacy. Some abilities are just bad.

Slithery is correct, it doesn't work on creatures immune to mind-affecting.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

That fallacy doesn't apply, since it's not that it doesn't work as intended, it's that it doesn't work at all. I wouldn't be arguing this is the the rules didn't support what I am saying.

[Deadkitten]

It doesn't matter if Painful Stare is a mind-affecting ability or a pain effect.

Hypnotic Stare itself is a mind-affecting effect. If you can't target it with Hypnotic Stare, you can't affect it with Painful Stare. So things immune to mind-affecting are immune to Painful Stare through immunity to Hypnotic Stare.

I suppose you could find a bad GM who would let you "target" something immune to the ability and tack on the Painful Stare rider, in which case enjoy bashing down doors better than anyone else, too.

What I am about to say is a strict interpretation of RAW and kinda spits in RAI's face, but nothing in the text from immunity to mind affecting prevents you from targeting them with an effect that is mind affecting. And all painful stare requires is that you are targeting them with your hypnotic stare ability.

So while its silly, it should still work unless im missing some part of the rules that say you cannot be the target of something you are immune to.

Its like creatures immune to extra damage from critical hits, you still TECNICALLY crit, they are just immune to the extra damage.

[Slithery D]

What I am about to say is a strict interpretation of RAW and kinda spits in RAI's face, but nothing in the text from immunity to mind affecting prevents you from targeting them with an effect that is mind affecting. And all painful stare requires is that you are targeting them with your hypnotic stare ability.

So while its silly, it should still work unless im missing some part of the rules that say you cannot be the target of something you are immune to.

Its like creatures immune to extra damage from critical hits, you still TECNICALLY crit, they are just immune to the extra damage.

Reviewing Hypnotic Stare and Painful Stare critically, I agree with you, RAW this works, the only thing you have to do is (1) "target" (but not necessarily affect) a creature with Hypnotic Stare and (2) it has to be vulnerable to precision damage for Painful Stare to apply damage.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

If I were making house rules, in addition to fixing Painful Stare so it is explicitly a mind-affecting and a pain effect, I'd give the vexing daredevil a Psychic Inception-lite ability. Between 3-7 if I was being generous, at level 10 if I was being stingy.

[Slithery D]

Psychic Anthology just came out and has some stare feats (blindness, confusion, remove dex to armor), some new trick feats (enhance flexibility/sharing of tricks in various ways, including a really stupid powerful spell contingency trick effect), and four archetypes (three good, one LOL bad).

[Triskavanski]

Eh, I stand by it. It starts of objectively worse than Improved Initiative, and never gets better than a trait for each target. If it was like... a first level spell, it'd be solid, but there are plenty of other feats I'd rather have.

It would stack with a Trait and Stack with Improved Init and stack with the 1st level spells. If it was a first level spell, it would have a duration of a minute per level (As shown by the spells that do in fact give an init bonus at level 1) . As in you'd need to know when your about to get into the combat to be able to even use it. This is pretty tricky thing to do at level 1 and still often just as tricky in later levels.

And even beyond the duration of the spell, you'd still be taking up one of your first level spell slots known and have to use one of your few spells per day. Which would end up making a solid skip.

As the feat would give your entire party about a 10% chance of going before the enemy. Which means you could all wail on a single target before he gets a chance to go, preventing you from taking damage from things like sneak attack as well as keeping your AC up to full rather than flatfooted ac. As well as being able to score sneak attacks, get your stare in place sooner, etc.

Unlike a Trait or Imp Init as well, if each member of your party has a fairly effective method of controlling the encounter, The more party members you dole out tricks to the higher the overall chances that one of them will be able to go first and throw out their encounter control tactic. With more being able to go first, the more encounter control tactics could be used resulting in a more controlled encounter.

But I guess I could see where if you were using up your tricks faster than a silly rabbit, or horde them to yourself like a dragon, that it could seem more underwhelming.

[thiamael]

Hello,

first of all, great guide. thanks for making me discover this really nice class. I hope you'll add the most recent features soon.

I have a suggestion for the saddist lash. instead of trying to convince your GM to make it a scorpion whip, you can sacrifice two feat slots (harsh, i know) to take weapon focus (whip) and then whip mastery. This feat enable you to do lethal damage with a whip and also to damage foes with armor and natural armor.


hope it has not been already said.