Assassin Eldritch Knight

[LordOfCain]

Fighter 2/Rogue 3/Assassin 5/Eldritch Knight 10.
What are your thoughts? How would a casting level of 14 for the assassin work???

[ComaVision]

It wouldn't, Assassin casting only goes up to level 10. You'd want to use a different caster class for this build.

EDIT: Or just take 6 levels of EK and go into something else since it's a garbage class anyway. Are you going in just for the BaB?

[Dusk Eclipse]

What do you want to do with that? In a core only environment it seems like a decent build, not really strong, but not weak either, sadly in the same environment Assassin's don't get their best spells (seriously the assassin spell list is awesome with some splat book support, specially with Spell compendium and Champions of Ruin). Though on an open book environment the character would loose a lot of power and there are better options for a sneaky-fightery-gish.

Anyway after level 10 of Assassin you would no longer get more spells per day (or known for that matter), but your CL would still increase which means harder to dispel spells, and usually stronger spell though I can't recall if there are any Assassin spells that scale that well with it.

[LordOfCain]

This is core only FYI.

[Yogibear41]

What about Unearthed Arcana? Some people consider parts of it Core, since it is on the SRD. Do you have that option? Also do you know what level you are starting at?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You would have the spells per day of an Assassin 10, a caster level of 14th for spell durations, overcoming SR, etc., but you would only have the spells known of an Assassin 5 because Eldritch Knight does not give you additional spells known.

If you're playing core only, go Rogue 4/ Wizard 1/ Assassin 5/ Arcane Trickster 10, advancing Wizard casting with your AT levels.

[Yogibear41]

You would have the spells per day of an Assassin 10, a caster level of 14th for spell durations, overcoming SR, etc., but you would only have the spells known of an Assassin 5 because Eldritch Knight does not give you additional spells known.

If you're playing core only, go Rogue 4/ Wizard 1/ Assassin 5/ Arcane Trickster 10, advancing Wizard casting with your AT levels.

He would get more spells known with Eldritch Knight, it works just like he is a bard.

If you are starting at a high level it would probably be better to start X-Paladin1/Blackguard10 then a level or two or rogue before jumping into Assassin. Its pretty Mad needing basically every score, but if you start with a 12 in wis and int, you can just buy a +2 item for both and be good for your spells.

Seeing as the only good 4th level spells a core blackguard gets is Freedom of movement which Assassins get too, and you only get 1/day unless you have a high wisdom, you could probably just get away with a 13 wisdom and just not worry about 4th level blackguard spells too.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

He would get more spells known with Eldritch Knight, it works just like he is a bard.

Read Eldritch Knight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/eldritchKnight.htm)'s spell progression again:


Spells per Day
From 2nd level on, when a new eldritch knight level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of eldritch knight to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.

If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before she became an eldritch knight, she must decide to which class she adds each level of eldritch knight for the purpose of determining spells per day.

[Yogibear41]

Anyone with even an ounce of sense is going to let the class grant spells known too, regardless of how to the letter a particular reading of the class ability says.

[Honjuden]

Let's not bring sense into this.

[Pluto!]

This is GitP. Usable game advice has no bearing here.
Instead let's talk about how monks aren't proficient with their fists!

Anyway, Eldritch knight is bad here. All it gives is BA, and it takes e place of Assassin's sweet class features. Assassin 9/Horizon Walker 6 would be more useful.

[Yogibear41]

I feel like Assassin8/EK3 is better than the last 2 levels of Assassin. But other than that staying Assassin is good for the sneak attack, hide in plain sight, and extra skill points.

[BowStreetRunner]

If you can qualify for Dragon Disciple after you reach the end of the Assassin spell progression you can still pick up bonus spells from DD. Either Fighter 2/Rogue 3/Assassin 5/Eldritch Knight 6/Dragon Disciple 4 <or> Fighter 2/Rogue 3/Assassin 10/Dragon Discplie 5.

[Deadline]

Unfortunately, if you take EK levels instead of Assassin levels, you are weakening your Death Attack. Better to take all 10 levels of Assassin and then something to improve your fighting ability. The suggestion of a few levels of Dragon Disciple is actually a decent one here. You lose out on Sneak Attack from more rogue, but gain melee relevant stat boosts and some bonus spells.

[Troacctid]

Who cares about death attack? Death attack sucks anyway. You're taking Assassin for the spellcasting and the sneak attack. Hide in plain sight is nice too.

[Deadline]

Who cares about death attack? Death attack sucks anyway. You're taking Assassin for the spellcasting and the sneak attack. Hide in plain sight is nice too.

If you aren't taking it for Death Attack (which admittedly is weak), why not just go with Arcane Trickster instead? There are other, far less costly ways of getting hide in plain sight.

@OP, could you be more specific about what you are looking for here? I know you've specified Core only, but if you can give us an idea of what you want your character to be able to do, we can provide better help. And as has been mentioned, you can't advance a PrC past its normal end. So RAW, I don't think you can advance Assassin casting past level 10. Most DMs I know would certainly let you advance caster level, but that doesn't give you more (or higher level) spells, so it's less useful.

[Troacctid]

Arcane Trickster has a very different entry path (you need 5 levels of Wizard). It comes online later and has a much weaker early game.

[Blackhawk748]

Who cares about death attack? Death attack sucks anyway. You're taking Assassin for the spellcasting and the sneak attack. Hide in plain sight is nice too.

Generally yes. With some work its actually not bad, sadly those things arent in core.

I second taking more Assassin levels and just finishing off with Arcane Trickster, EK isnt all that great except for finishing off Gish builds.

[BowStreetRunner]

Arcane Trickster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneTrickster.htm): Sneak Attack and Spellcasting progression, but you need to find a way to learn Mage Hand to enter. After Assassin spellcasting reaches 10 levels you get no new spells, just increased CL.
Dragon Disciple (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dragonDisciple.htm): Taken after Assassin 10 this nets you bonus spells and some nice abilities, but your CL doesn't go up.
Eldritch Knight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/eldritchKnight.htm): Gives full BAB and 9/10 casting progression, although again won't take Assassin spellcasting past 10 levels except CL increase. One bonus feat and no other special abilities.

I personally wouldn't take Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight past the top level of Assassin spellcasting. Either drop back into Fighter or Rogue at that point or pick up Dragon Disciple.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Death Attack is very weak in core-only, the only DC booster you have is Ability Focus (and some people consider it quite iffy).

[Blackhawk748]

Death Attack is very weak in core-only, the only DC booster you have is Ability Focus (and some people consider it quite iffy).

Like i said, its ok out of core, in core its bad.

[KillianHawkeye]

What about Unearthed Arcana? Some people consider parts of it Core, since it is on the SRD.

Regardless of what "some people" may think, UA is not nor has it ever been a core book because the terms "Core" and "SRD" are not synonymous.

The SRD includes extra material that is considered open content under the OGC, which includes parts of UA, the XPH, Deities & Demigods, and the Epic Level Handbook. Note that it does not include certain core monsters such as the Beholder and Mind Flayer (despite both being in the primary Monster Manual) or names such as Mordenkainen, Baatezu, and Tanar'ri, because those are protected under Dungeons & Dragons' product identity, nor does it include certain key rules such as the the amount of experience needed to level up or the expected WBL guidelines.

[Deadline]

Arcane Trickster has a very different entry path (you need 5 levels of Wizard). It comes online later and has a much weaker early game.

I'm well aware. I disagree about it being all that much weaker in the early game (it's mostly Wizard, after all), and it's most definitely stronger in the late game (especially when you consider that the Assassin spell list in core is ... mostly irrelevant except for maybe 1 or 2 good spells per spell level). But unless we know what the OP is trying to do with this character, it's all mostly pointless speculation anyway. After all, why take Assassin in the first place? If it's for the Death Attack, then taking less than the full 10 levels is bad. If it's for Hide in Plain Sight, then a level of Shadowdancer is probably better (although the feat pre-reqs hurt), if it's for spells and sneak attack, Arcane Trickster is a better option. Heck, if the OP is just after a melee fighter who has some minor casting ability, there are three of those just in core, you don't even need to leave the base classes.

[Pluto!]

The Assassin PrC by far the easiest way to make a weapon-using sneak attack gish.

Even though BA is worth less than casting, a Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Assassin 1/Arcane Trickster 3 has a noticeably harder time living up to a sword-fighting concept than a Rogue 3/Ranger 2/Assassin 5.

Granted, it can Polymorph into a Hydra and give the bad guys a good chomping, but that isn't necessarily on concept.

[tadkins]

Wait, does the EK really suck? I posted the other day about a possible Ranger/Wizard/EK idea and thought it would be a good way to mix exploring, martial combat and spellcasting all in one neat package. Would there be a better way to go about that?

[Troacctid]

Eldritch Knight is pretty bad, yeah. It's not as bad as Arcane Archer, but it's still a trap.

The reason it's bad is because BAB isn't actually important. A couple extra points to your attacks doesn't matter, because there's no reason for you to bother attacking when you have ten bazillion spell slots and even your low-level spells are more effective than a weapon attack would be.

It would be different if you could be primarily a weapon-user with some magic mixed in, because when your magic is more limited, you have more reason to switch-hit, but Eldritch Knight, at its base, is asking you for five levels of Wizard, which puts you firmly on the "sorcery" side of "sword and sorcery", and your sorcery is so much stronger than your sword that switching between them would be like switching between a gun and a slingshot. A few points of BAB doesn't change that.

This is different from, say, Dragon Disciple, because although it gives you some extra spells, the expected entry is Barbarian, not Sorcerer. So while hitting things with a sword is generally worse than casting spells just from an objective power standpoint, Dragon Disciple isn't a trap the way Eldritch Knight is, since it actually makes you better at the job you're trying to do instead of tricking you into being less effective than you would have been without the prestige class. Similarly, if Eldritch Knight only required 1st level spells instead of 3rd, it would probably be the best Fighter prestige class in core! Just take a quick dip into Wizard and you'd get 10 levels of casting for pretty damn close to free.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Compare Eldritch Knight to Knight Phantom (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4), the latter's prerequisites aren't nearly as easy/automatic to achieve, but it actually gets a few class features, and its spellcasting progression actually gives you spells known. Still not worth using most of the time, since the only time you would want to use either of those would be on a build that primarily uses weapon attacks, in a game where you expect to go beyond 20th level, and you need it to get you a +16 BAB and 9th level spells by 20th level. Even in that case, you usually won't even need more than four levels of it, so the real deciding factor between those two classes is whether you're a Wizard who can learn more spells apart from leveling up, or a spontaneous caster with limited spells known.

If you're not building a true arcane gish (9th level spells and +16 BAB at 20th level), then don't even touch Eldritch Knight.

[tadkins]

Ah, thanks guys. In that case I will probably go with that Scout/Wizard/Unseen Seer build that was suggested in a previous thread.

[Pluto!]

Well, EK isn't great for Wizards in general because it does lose CL, but if a player is trying to play a Gish, EK is better than third-string (after AbjChamp, of course) alternatives like Knight Phantom, Cyran Avenger, Impure Prince, etc. and is comparable to classes like Sacred Exorcist or Ruathar as a solid role-filling chassis with flexible prereqs.

Those easy requirements usually leave it with two extra feats compared to other full BA filler, and feats chosen by the player tend to be stronger than abilities like armored casting or minor combat tricks a few times a day.

[Blackhawk748]

Well, EK isn't great for Wizards in general because it does lose CL, but if a player is trying to play a Gish, EK is better than third-string (after AbjChamp, of course) alternatives like Knight Phantom, Cyran Avenger, Impure Prince, etc. and is comparable to classes like Sacred Exorcist or Ruathar as a solid role-filling chassis with flexible prereqs.

Those easy requirements usually leave it with two extra feats compared to other full BA filler, and feats chosen by the player tend to be stronger than abilities like armored casting or minor combat tricks a few times a day.

Seconding this, EK isnt the main course, its the filler. :smalltongue:

[Fouredged Sword]

Eh, if you are looking for filler, I would be tempted to sub in Human Paragon or Elven Paragon. 3/4bab, bonus feat, stat boost. You can even start as a half-elf and go Half-elf paragon 3 / human paragon 3.

[tadkins]

I gotcha. Basically, I was just looking to build a wizard that filled this criteria.

-Gnome (always gnome, love gnomes!)
-Competent with a greatsword and a bow (doesn't have to be some anime-style martial master)
-Good at traveling to, surviving and navigating fantastic, unfamiliar and/or hostile environments.

I figured the Ranger1/Wizard/EK would be good for that.