Help With My Ranged Tank

[Molan]

Hi All;

I have a little bit of a build challenge here.

I'm working on a Fighter 20 build where the character is the party's main archer, not a tank. Stealth ability isn't really an issue here. I actually intend to work on getting some pretty heavy armor to boot.

This may have been done befor but I'd really appreciate any help I can get with build suggestions! Primarily, of course, I'm looking for recommendations on Items, Skills, and Feats!

Thanks in advance playground!

[BowStreetRunner]

While I understand the Ranged part, could you please clarify what exactly you mean by Tank? Exactly what are your expectations, as heavy armor alone does not exactly make a Tank in the way most of the members of the Playground understand the term.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Are you beginning play at 20th level? Why go with Fighter 20 and not a build that's more suited to archery?

[ComaVision]

20 Internet cookies to the man that can make a Fighter 20 archery build that is actually relevant in a CR 20 encounter. :smalleek:

EDIT: The Fighter variant Targeteer from Dragon magazine is a start, though.

[elonin]

When the OP mentioned tank I thought one of those High hitpoint builds. I'm presuming you'll be going with a fairly high strength so a composite bow or a dwarven composite (stone?) bow. What feats do you have access to? I'm another one who would recommend against fighter 20.

[Hiro Quester]

Around here "tank" often means the heavily armored brute who tries to make himself the target of the enemies' attacks, so those attacks are not targeted at the swisher party members.

This often involves being at the front lines of melee. However it's harder to use a ranged weapon at the front lines. Firing a ranged weapon in melee range triggers an attack of opportunity, for one thing.

Another thing is that heavy armor comes with a maximum dexterity limit. So wearing heavy armor limits your dexterity, which is the stat used to determine your to-hit bonus. Because of this, archery types generally tend towards lighepter armory that don't pose a limit to your dexterity.

So "ranged tank" is something of an oxymoron.

So perhaps it would help to explain a bit more what exactly you mean.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you're creating this character at 20th level, then you'll be much better off with a different class. At that level, if you can't cast 9th level spells, your character is part of the scenery over 90% of the time.

If you're planning a build to 20th level, and reasonably expect to reach 20th level, then you're still better off with a different class for the same reasons.

Otherwise, just check out the Archery Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.0), and plan to make your character a Cloistered Cleric + PrCs, with a goal of having at least 17th level Cleric spellcasting by 20th level, preferably 20th level spellcasting at 20th level (Wood Elf, Cloistered Cleric 5/ Ruathar 1/ Seeker of the Misty Isle 1/ Divine Oracle 2/ Paragnostic Apostle 1/ Contemplative 10, for example). Have the Outsider creature type (Otherworldly feat prior to 20th, Contemplative 10th otherwise) and use Greater Anyspell from the Spell domain to cast Draconic Polymorph with Divine Metamagic: Persistent to become an Arrow Demon (MM3), which can wield two bows simultaneously and the second bow makes as many attacks as the first without any penalties for using a second weapon. With DMM: Persistent Righteous Wrath of the Faithful and Improved Rapid Shot, plus DMM: Persistent Divine Power, you'll be making six attacks with your primary bow and six attacks with your secondary bow. Use two Energy Bows (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) with Splitting (CW) and Greater Magic Weapon +5, and you'll effectively be making twenty-four shots on a full attack, each of which deals something like 2d6+22, for an average of almost 700 damage per full attack.

[Molan]

Ok, lol. I thought this might happen. I should have clarified better.

This campaign has extraordinarily right rules on character generation. Actually, they're pretty generous, with one major exception -- the base classes.

(Something about this campaign will become very obvious in a moment, lol)

Available Base Classes:
1. Samurai (CW *though with a house rule variant regarding the TWF progression per the DM)
2. Fighter (PHB)
3. Paladin (PHB)
4. Ninja (CAv)
5. Monk (PHB)
6. Shugenja (CD)
7. Wu Jen (CAr)
8. Psion (EXP)

I want to be an archer, because I don't want to play any of those caster classes. I want my guy to wear heavy armor (which yes, does interfere with Dex but to my knowledge did not actually interfere with attack rolls) and basically just duke it out at a distance like a champ.

Would this have been my first choice? No, but hopefully now you can see where I'm coming from.

[justiceforall]

There's a thread on here somewhere that uses Ranged Smite Evil to super-snipe evil targets. Could build that off a paladin chassis?


Fighter 4+/Sanctified Mind 1/War Mind X using Zen Archery could also work. You get a bunch of fighter levels, heavy armour, little to no dexterity reliance, and then later on you get a few psionic tricks. You could use Psionic Shot at lower levels for more damage (its not much use later but it'd be fine early).

You could also crush pretty hard in melee if you so chose as well.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Is your DM not aware of the Tier System For Classes (http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/?topic=1002.0)?

1. Samurai (CW) - Tier 6, not even capable of shining in its own area of expertise. Will often feel worthless unless the character is seriously powergamed beyond belief, and even then won't be terribly impressive.
2. Fighter (PHB) - Tier 5, capable of only doing one thing, and not necessarily that well. In many types of encounters the character cannot contribute.
3. Paladin (PHB) - Tier 5, capable of only doing one thing, and not necessarily that well, or so unfocused that it has trouble mastering anything. In many types of encounters the character cannot contribute.
4. Ninja (CAv) - Tier 5, capable of only doing one thing, and not necessarily that well, or so unfocused that it has trouble mastering anything. In many types of encounters the character cannot contribute.
5. Monk (PHB) - Tier 5, capable of only doing one thing, and not necessarily that well, or so unfocused that it has trouble mastering anything. In many types of encounters the character cannot contribute.
6. Shugenja (CD) - generally regarded as Tier 3, capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. This is a comfortable power level for a character in a balanced game.
7. Wu Jen (CAr) - generally regarded as Tier 2, potentially a campaign smasher if optimized, capable of handling most encounters all by himself.
8. Psion (EXP) - Tier 2, potentially a campaign smasher if optimized, capable of handling most encounters all by himself.

That list needs serious revision, because it's a terrible idea, especially if you're starting play at 20th level. You've got five classes at the absolute lowest power level, with one class at a comfortable power level, and a few at the level of potentially-slightly-too-powerful. One of three things will happen: Everyone will pick from the first five classes, and the party will barely be able to take on appropriate-CR challenges; Everyone will pick from the last three classes, and the party will be strong and achieve its goals relatively easily; There will be a mix of characters from the first five classes and the last three, and those who picked one of the first five classes will feel like sidekicks helping the main characters some of the time, and feel like they're useless the rest of the time.

Here's how I would revise that class list for a balanced game:

1. Samurai (CW) Warblade (ToB) - Tier 3, a comfortable power level for a character in a balanced game.
2. Fighter (PHB) - Good for dips, but little else. Useful if you get the Dungeoncrasher ACF and/or Zhentarim Soldier substitution levels, but not at all useful beyond obtaining those and a few bonus feats.
2a. Psychic Warrior (EXP) - Tier 3, a comfortable power level for a character in a balanced game.
3. Paladin (PHB) Crusader (ToB) - Tier 3, a comfortable power level for a character in a balanced game.
4. Ninja (CAv) Swordsage (ToB) - Tier 3, a comfortable power level for a character in a balanced game.
5. Monk (PHB) Swordsage (ToB) using the unarmed variant - Tier 3, a comfortable power level for a character in a balanced game.
6. Shugenja (CD) - Should fit just fine.
7. Wu Jen (CAr) - Should fit as long as it's not powergamed to the max.
8. Psion (EXP) - Should fit as long as it's not powergamed to the max.

[Curmudgeon]

Another thing is that heavy armor comes with a maximum dexterity limit. So wearing heavy armor limits your dexterity, which is the stat used to determine your to-hit bonus. Because of this, archery types generally tend towards lighepter armory that don't pose a limit to your dexterity.
I believe you're confused.
Maximum Dex Bonus

This number is the maximum Dexterity bonus to AC that this type of armor allows. Heavier armors limit mobility, reducing the wearer’s ability to dodge blows. This restriction doesn’t affect any other Dexterity-related abilities.

[Glimbur]

I want to be an archer, because I don't want to play any of those caster classes. I want my guy to wear heavy armor (which yes, does interfere with Dex but to my knowledge did not actually interfere with attack rolls) and basically just duke it out at a distance like a champ.


There's no rule that says you have to wear heavy armor just because you can. You'll need the Dex for archery feats anyway, so just wear light armor. Mithral chain shirt or Celestial Armor or whatever. If you want, Glamour it so it looks like full plate. Then surprise people with your move speed and jump checks and... ok it's not great but you're a fighter.

There are a lot of niche feats that help archery a little. Sure, you'll want weapon focus etc all the way to ranged weapon mastery. But you can probably also afford Ranged Pin and other stupid trick-shot feats. That's about what you can manage with Fighter 20; check out Complete Warrior and Races of the Wild and just go nuts.

[Darrin]

Fighter 20 Archer... how about:

Race: Human.
1) Fighter 1. Feat: PB Shot. Bonus: EWP Greatbow (CWar) or Bonebow (Frostburn). Human: Precise Shot.
2) Fighter 2. Bonus: WF Greatbow/Bonebow.
3) Fighter 3. Feat: Rapid Shot.
4) Fighter 4. Bonus: WS Greatbow/Bonebow.
5) Fighter 5.
6) Fighter 6. Feat: Manyshot. Bonus: Improved Rapid Shot (Complete Warrior).
7) Fighter 7.
8) Fighter 8. Bonus: Ranged Weapon Mastery (PHBII).
9) Fighter 9. Feat: GWF Greatbow/Bonebow.
10) Fighter 10. Bonus: Combat Expertise.
11) Fighter 11.
12) Fighter 12. Feat: Sense Weakness (Draconomicon). Bonus: GWS Greatbow/Bonebow.
13) Fighter 13.
14) Fighter 14. Bonus: Improved Critical.
15) Fighter 15. Feat: Woodland Archer (Races of the Wild).
16) Fighter 16. Bonus: Dead Eye (Dragon Compendium).
17) Fighter 17.
18) Fighter 18. Feat: Heavy Armor Optimization (Races of Stone). Bonus: Weapon Supremacy Greatbow/Bonebow (PHBII).
19) Fighter 19.
20) Fighter 20. Bonus: Greater Heavy Armor Optimization (Races of Stone).

Maybe consider Raptoran or Dragonborn of Bahumat for flight. They can both fly while wearing heavy armor and carrying a light load (at a slower speed, but by RAW wearing heavy armor does not count as a medium or heavy load by itself). If Raptoran, drop EWP for the footbow. If Dragonborn, then take Exotic Shield Proficiency at Fighter 1 (optional rule, Races of Stone page 139). You can lose that feat instead of your human bonus feat (Races of the Dragon, bottom of page 10). Consider trading Improved Critical for Plunging Shot (Races of the Wild): better bonus damage in the long run.

[ShurikVch]

3. Paladin (PHB) - Tier 5, capable of only doing one thing, and not necessarily that well, or so unfocused that it has trouble mastering anything. In many types of encounters the character cannot contribute.Pladin is Tier 5? :smallconfused:
Paladin is a caster.
Should be T4 easy, because Hexblade is T4, but worse than Paladin.
Paladin with Battle Blessing, Serenity, and Sword of the Arcane Order may be T3!

[Hiro Quester]

I believe you're confused.

Yep. I guess so. Thanks for the clarification.

I have never played an archer type, but all the archers I play with tend to want light armor. I though it was because the Max Dex applied to all Dex-related activities.

But I guess it's just because they have a high dex and want to have that high dex apply to their AC. There's no need to have an extra +3 to AC from armor if your dex bonus would do that anyway with light armor. And then you can tumble, jump, balance well also.

[Molan]

Is your DM not aware of the Tier System For Classes (http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/?topic=1002.0)?

1. Samurai (CW) - Tier 6, not even capable of shining in its own area of expertise. Will often feel worthless unless the character is seriously powergamed beyond belief, and even then won't be terribly impressive.
2. Fighter (PHB) - Tier 5, capable of only doing one thing, and not necessarily that well. In many types of encounters the character cannot contribute.
3. Paladin (PHB) - Tier 5, capable of only doing one thing, and not necessarily that well, or so unfocused that it has trouble mastering anything. In many types of encounters the character cannot contribute.
4. Ninja (CAv) - Tier 5, capable of only doing one thing, and not necessarily that well, or so unfocused that it has trouble mastering anything. In many types of encounters the character cannot contribute.
5. Monk (PHB) - Tier 5, capable of only doing one thing, and not necessarily that well, or so unfocused that it has trouble mastering anything. In many types of encounters the character cannot contribute.
6. Shugenja (CD) - generally regarded as Tier 3, capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. This is a comfortable power level for a character in a balanced game.
7. Wu Jen (CAr) - generally regarded as Tier 2, potentially a campaign smasher if optimized, capable of handling most encounters all by himself.
8. Psion (EXP) - Tier 2, potentially a campaign smasher if optimized, capable of handling most encounters all by himself.

That list needs serious revision, because it's a terrible idea, especially if you're starting play at 20th level. You've got five classes at the absolute lowest power level, with one class at a comfortable power level, and a few at the level of potentially-slightly-too-powerful. One of three things will happen: Everyone will pick from the first five classes, and the party will barely be able to take on appropriate-CR challenges; Everyone will pick from the last three classes, and the party will be strong and achieve its goals relatively easily; There will be a mix of characters from the first five classes and the last three, and those who picked one of the first five classes will feel like sidekicks helping the main characters some of the time, and feel like they're useless the rest of the time.

Here's how I would revise that class list for a balanced game:

1. Samurai (CW) Warblade (ToB) - Tier 3, a comfortable power level for a character in a balanced game.
2. Fighter (PHB) - Good for dips, but little else. Useful if you get the Dungeoncrasher ACF and/or Zhentarim Soldier substitution levels, but not at all useful beyond obtaining those and a few bonus feats.
2a. Psychic Warrior (EXP) - Tier 3, a comfortable power level for a character in a balanced game.
3. Paladin (PHB) Crusader (ToB) - Tier 3, a comfortable power level for a character in a balanced game.
4. Ninja (CAv) Swordsage (ToB) - Tier 3, a comfortable power level for a character in a balanced game.
5. Monk (PHB) Swordsage (ToB) using the unarmed variant - Tier 3, a comfortable power level for a character in a balanced game.
6. Shugenja (CD) - Should fit just fine.
7. Wu Jen (CAr) - Should fit as long as it's not powergamed to the max.
8. Psion (EXP) - Should fit as long as it's not powergamed to the max.

I strongly doubt the DM is aware, nor was *I* aware, but even being so, I doubt either of us would care. I'm playing with this group because they're fun to play with and he created the campaign because it's thematic. I want ideas for my build but I don't need it to be the single greatest killing machine ever created. Given the way my group plays I strongly doubt the above issues would really rear their heads.

The player considering Paladin and Samurai will either wind up being his third rendition of "crazy-TWF-whirlwind-guy", or he'll dump some feats into EWP and ImpCrit for a No-Dachi as a paladin and just leap attack charge things to death. Psion likely won't even get picked, given the group's current leanings. It really doesn't seem like a major issue to me.


Fighter 20 Archer... how about:

Race: Human.
1) Fighter 1. Feat: PB Shot. Bonus: EWP Greatbow (CWar) or Bonebow (Frostburn). Human: Precise Shot.
2) Fighter 2. Bonus: WF Greatbow/Bonebow.
3) Fighter 3. Feat: Rapid Shot.
4) Fighter 4. Bonus: WS Greatbow/Bonebow.
5) Fighter 5.
6) Fighter 6. Feat: Manyshot. Bonus: Improved Rapid Shot (Complete Warrior).
7) Fighter 7.
8) Fighter 8. Bonus: Ranged Weapon Mastery (PHBII).
9) Fighter 9. Feat: GWF Greatbow/Bonebow.
10) Fighter 10. Bonus: Combat Expertise.
11) Fighter 11.
12) Fighter 12. Feat: Sense Weakness (Draconomicon). Bonus: GWS Greatbow/Bonebow.
13) Fighter 13.
14) Fighter 14. Bonus: Improved Critical.
15) Fighter 15. Feat: Woodland Archer (Races of the Wild).
16) Fighter 16. Bonus: Dead Eye (Dragon Compendium).
17) Fighter 17.
18) Fighter 18. Feat: Heavy Armor Optimization (Races of Stone). Bonus: Weapon Supremacy Greatbow/Bonebow (PHBII).
19) Fighter 19.
20) Fighter 20. Bonus: Greater Heavy Armor Optimization (Races of Stone).

Maybe consider Raptoran or Dragonborn of Bahumat for flight. They can both fly while wearing heavy armor and carrying a light load (at a slower speed, but by RAW wearing heavy armor does not count as a medium or heavy load by itself). If Raptoran, drop EWP for the footbow. If Dragonborn, then take Exotic Shield Proficiency at Fighter 1 (optional rule, Races of Stone page 139). You can lose that feat instead of your human bonus feat (Races of the Dragon, bottom of page 10). Consider trading Improved Critical for Plunging Shot (Races of the Wild): better bonus damage in the long run.

This is awesome! Thank you!!! Idk if I'll bother learning to fly, but overall I like the feat selection quite a bit.

[Darrin]

This is awesome! Thank you!!! Idk if I'll bother learning to fly, but overall I like the feat selection quite a bit.

General rule of thumb for archers: flying archer + non-flying target = dead target (AKA "Kiting".)

Just be aware that if you're playing a high-level game with spellcasters that are being played by anyone who has even a moderate amount of "System Mastery" or character optimization experience, then you run a very good chance of being completely irrelevant. Your best hope for a Fighter 20 to still be somewhat useful is probably going to come from your magic items.

Starting with your bow:

If Hank's Energy Bow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) is available, then make sure your character's middle name is "Hank" and use that instead of a greatbow or bonebow (swap the EWP feat for... uh... maybe Shape Soulmeld: Sighting Gloves). The Holy Grail for archers is the Splitting property (Champions of Ruin p. 42), but not every DM allows setting-specific material into non-Forgotten Realms campaigns.

If Hank's Energy Bow isn't available, then consider the Bone Bow from Frostburn. It has the same damage as a Greatbow, but the description also contains this text: "A bone bow functions as a composite longbow with regard to applying the user's Strength bonus to damage done with arrows shot from it." Some people interpret this to mean that a Bone Bow auto-adjusts to your Strength rating without having to buy a bow specifically designed for your particular Strength bonus. I'm... not sure if that's what was intended, because it could also mean you just pay for the Strength bonus like any other composite bow. Ask your DM to clarify.

If neither of those are available, then consider a composite greatbow (Complete Warrior), and ask if you can add the Elvencraft property (+300 GP, Races of the Wild). It's not entirely clear if Elvencraft can be applied to greatbows, but the greatbow description does say, "Composite greatbows follow all of the normal rules for composite bows", so it should still count as a composite longbow. Elvencraft means you can treat your longbow as a quarterstaff, so if you need to get your hands dirty with melee you can instantly switch between ranged or two-handed melee attacks without worrying about dropping or drawing a new weapon.

If Splitting isn't available, then load up your bow with anything that adds bonus damage, because that's archery's biggest Achilles' heel. Start with Frost and Flaming (DMG), add Shocking via Bracers of Lightning (11000 GP, MIC), and a Lesser Crystal of Acid Assault (3000 GP, MIC). Screaming adds another +1d4 [sonic] damage and Psychokinetic adds another +1d4 [force] damage. Sense Weakness allows you to ignore the first 5 points of Damage Reduction, but if you're getting boned by DR, consider adding the Force property to ignore DR. (Hank's Energy Bow already does [force] damage, but it's not clear from the description if it bypasses DR).

For your armor... you may have a bit of a headache there, because making it out of mithral or darkleaf will increase the Max Dex bonus, and you want to take advantage of your high Dex as much as possible. But then it's considered medium armor, and Heavy Armor Optimization stops working. The Nimbleness property (+1 enhancement, MIC) can help there. Aside from the enhancements (Fortification is pretty decent), you'll want to throw some other properties on there: Durable (+500 GP, Dungeonscape), Restful (+500 GP, Dungeonscape), Easy Travel (+1500 GP, MIC), and Anti-Impact (+2000 GP, Complete Warrior). You'll probably want Soulfire (+4 enhancement, BoED) and Freedom (+5 enhancement, MIC), but it's cheaper to put each of these on a Dwarven Buckler-Axe (Races of Stone).

After that, consult the List of Necessary Magic Items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851), and try to cover as many areas of weakness as you can. You get seriously boned as a meatbag because you have to devote so much of your WBL to items that hopefully keep you relevant, while the spellcasters can already do a bunch of this stuff via spells: fly, freedom of movement, teleport, displacement, etc.

If you've got any GP left over, look for magic items that have a variety of applications or very "open-ended" effects that rely on imagination more than rules text. An item that can teleport 3/day is certainly useful, but has a narrow application. An item that summons a creature, such as a unicorn or djinn, can take care of some long-distance transportation needs and *so much more*. In fact, make sure you grab a few items that summons things. This leverages how important your character is on the battlefield: not only are you the archer, but you're also in charge of the air elemental, or the two Golden Lions, or the bag full of mules.

[ShurikVch]

Note: bigger character - bigger damage dice for the bow