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QuadraticW
2015-09-02, 10:01 PM
Hi everyone, I'd like to get your thoughts on a new fighter archetype, the Warrior.

The Warrior (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SPwPW6RKrebUzCg76tW6gcy9DpW1PAyemBrXvSi5-yc/edit?usp=sharing)

Some design notes. First, the goal is to make a fighter subclass that gains in power all the way to the end of the game, with abilities that make it effective in high level encounters. As well, to create a tactically interesting class that has the flexibility to respond to encounters with a good array of options. At the same time, I didn't want to break the math of the game (unlike a few standard features *cough* Archdruid *cough*) and so the power of the class has a good deal of RNG involved.

As well, it uses a new mechanic, Power Points and Power Cards, inspired in large part by the powers of 4e, but also various card games,especially hearthstone. The pool mechanic especially would allow multiple classes with powers to synergize with each other well.

Really, the goals here boil down to 1. make a fighter class that can arguably be considered the best at fighting, 2. give the fighter fun and tactical decisions to make on their turn that reward both luck and careful decisions, 3. give the fighter a mechanic that makes their power escalate the longer and more dangerous an encounter is, 4. give them tools that help them avoid the various ways they can be easily shut down normally.

Anyways, I'd love to hear what you all think!

Amnoriath
2015-09-02, 10:42 PM
Hi everyone, I'd like to get your thoughts on a new fighter archetype, the Warrior.

The Warrior (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SPwPW6RKrebUzCg76tW6gcy9DpW1PAyemBrXvSi5-yc/edit?usp=sharing)

Some design notes. First, the goal is to make a fighter subclass that gains in power all the way to the end of the game, with abilities that make it effective in high level encounters. As well, to create a tactically interesting class that has the flexibility to respond to encounters with a good array of options. At the same time, I didn't want to break the math of the game (unlike a few standard features *cough* Archdruid *cough*) and so the power of the class has a good deal of RNG involved.

As well, it uses a new mechanic, Power Points and Power Cards, inspired in large part by the powers of 4e, but also various card games,especially hearthstone. The pool mechanic especially would allow multiple classes with powers to synergize with each other well.

Really, the goals here boil down to 1. make a fighter class that can arguably be considered the best at fighting, 2. give the fighter fun and tactical decisions to make on their turn that reward both luck and careful decisions, 3. give the fighter a mechanic that makes their power escalate the longer and more dangerous an encounter is, 4. give them tools that help them avoid the various ways they can be easily shut down normally.

Anyways, I'd love to hear what you all think!

Is this really suppose to be serious or is your username indication on the meaning of the power level this has? Either way saying this is "quadratic" is like saying light travels fast. You say you didn't want to break the math well you have stances that can practically guarantee a save, have as many hit points replenished as many of the dreaded Wild Shapes, auto debuffs and kills,..etc all through out the day. This isn't even remotely balanced and you need through out the entire system all together.

QuadraticW
2015-09-02, 10:51 PM
Is this really suppose to be serious or is your username indication on the meaning of the power level this has? Either way saying this is "quadratic" is like saying light travels fast. You say you didn't want to break the math well you have stances that can practically guarantee a save, have as many hit points replenished as many of the dreaded Wild Shapes, auto debuffs and kills,..etc all through out the day. This isn't even remotely balanced and you need through out the entire system all together.

Thanks for having a look!

When you say that the stances practically guarantee a save, then by that same logic a wizard's ability to apply their proficiency to every single DC they make, which can target any saving throw DC of an enemy, practically guarantees that the enemies will always fail their save. A proficiency bonus is nice, but it's not the be-all, end-all.

Shield Barrier is powerful, with an effect based on the abjuration wizard's ability to create an arcane ward, and like that ability, it's important to remember that you can only use it once per encounter, not every single round like a wildshape druid.

The riders that knock enemies prone and such aren't autodebuffs; they require you to score a hit first, a mechanic that's already used by barbarians and wildshaping druids. The Execute power effectively deals 100 extra damage at 20th level, and at the cost of 5 points. On the first round, a serious enemy is going to have a lot more than that, and you're likely to kill it before the chance comes around again. Best case scenario though, doing 100 extra damage on a hit once per battle isn't that ridiculous at 20th level.

Thanks again for the feedback though.

Amnoriath
2015-09-02, 11:47 PM
Thanks for having a look!

When you say that the stances practically guarantee a save, then by that same logic a wizard's ability to apply their proficiency to every single DC they make, which can target any saving throw DC of an enemy, practically guarantees that the enemies will always fail their save. A proficiency bonus is nice, but it's not the be-all, end-all.

Shield Barrier is powerful, with an effect based on the abjuration wizard's ability to create an arcane ward, and like that ability, it's important to remember that you can only use it once per encounter, not every single round like a wildshape druid.

The riders that knock enemies prone and such aren't autodebuffs; they require you to score a hit first, a mechanic that's already used by barbarians and wildshaping druids. The Execute power effectively deals 100 extra damage at 20th level, and at the cost of 5 points. On the first round, a serious enemy is going to have a lot more than that, and you're likely to kill it before the chance comes around again. Best case scenario though, doing 100 extra damage on a hit once per battle isn't that ridiculous at 20th level.

Thanks again for the feedback though.

1. Wrong, you gave them expertise for saves in which they are proficient in. When looking at comparable levels they only have a 5% chance of failure, none if they are a Halfling. Do you even understand what this means for a Monk multiclass? You also never see a static and stackable +6 to AC.
2. Arcane Ward is once a day, Power Word Kill is once a day, you gave them it too them all through out the day. I saw the numbers but you should also be familiar with the fact the 100+ damage in a single hit is almost non-existent in this eidition unless in specific builds with very specific conditions. Besides it isn't just damage as it kills meaning Relentless Endurance-like abilities and other sorts of passive healing is negated.
3. I understand the mechanics but that is a 14th level barbarian ability that consumes a bonus action and the shapes in which you are talking about isn't an automatic success as they require saves. Also stop comparing a 20th level Druid to your 3rd level Warrior, everyone agrees Wild Shape and their capstone is broken in health ablation. Don't make a subclass with the same philosophy that then copies all sorts of other things that much earlier.

QuadraticW
2015-09-03, 12:22 AM
1. Wrong, you gave them expertise for saves in which they are proficient in. When looking at comparable levels they only have a 5% chance of failure, none if they are a Halfling. Do you even understand what this means for a Monk multiclass? You also never see a static and stackable +6 to AC.
2. Arcane Ward is once a day, Power Word Kill is once a day, you gave them it too them all through out the day. I saw the numbers but you should also be familiar with the fact the 100+ damage in a single hit is almost non-existent in this eidition unless in specific builds with very specific conditions. Besides it isn't just damage as it kills meaning Relentless Endurance-like abilities and other sorts of passive healing is negated.
3. I understand the mechanics but that is a 14th level barbarian ability that consumes a bonus action and the shapes in which you are talking about isn't an automatic success as they require saves. Also stop comparing a 20th level Druid to your 3rd level Warrior, everyone agrees Wild Shape and their capstone is broken in health ablation. Don't make a subclass with the same philosophy that then copies all sorts of other things that much earlier.

1. Yes, it's very unlikely for a warrior to fail a constitution or strength check, but not, as you said before, all saves. If you think that's really a sticking point, I suppose I could get rid of the expertise part. Before reducing it further, would you suggest that other classes must then choose one saving throw for all of their abilities to target? Say, a wizard that can only cast spells that target dex. Or is being able to target multiple saves a strength of the class and within reason?

2. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that the fighter should be better at soaking damage and dealing it than the wizard. That said, Arcane Ward is once per day, though it can be recharged out of combat through rituals and later, spell mastery. Power Word Kill is precise like a surgeon's scalpel and can be used at just the right moment. Due to the short combat times and random nature of dice, the Execute ability doesn't have that same level of reliability. As well, the attack takes the entire Action, and if it misses, it can't be used again for the rest of the encounter. With Power Word Kill, as long as you satisfy the hp requirement, it works every time.

3. So what you seem to be saying is that certain powers should be restricted to higher levels. That certainly seems doable, and would give players something to look forward to as they invest in the class. As for comparing it to the druid capstone, that's just one of many examples of how this is within the realm of reason because it doesn't rise to that level.

Yes, the class is effective in combat. But does it have the same effectiveness as a wizard in the body of an adult red dragon? The same utility as the Wish spell? Put another way, do you really think that with the tools at their disposal such as polymorph, animate dead, reverse gravity, and the like, that these classes are so much weaker in comparison to this class, that even with the versatility and raw utility of spellcasting, no one would want to be a druid, cleric, bard, or wizard with such a class on the table?

Flashy
2015-09-03, 04:51 AM
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding this, but the warrior starts the fight with no PP and gains progressively more as the fight progresses?

So the warrior has 1d6 points at the beginning of their first round, 2 at the second, 3 at the 3rd, etc? Because the rider effects alone make that crazy broken. As I understand it a third level greatsword warrior burning all points on mortal strike every round deals 4d6+str on the second round, 5d6+str on the third, and on and on until it's 9d6+str? That breaks the damage curve so hard it's unbelievable.

There's also essentially no resource management to this class because the recharge on the PP mechanic is so rapid. As written this class is just a straight upgrade on battlemaster in basically every category. You should either change this class so it has way fewer power points or change it so that the effects are minor. Adding a single point of damage per power point, pushing someone five feet per power point (with a save), things like that. Even then I'd probably reduce it to ~2 PP per round, with an increase at later levels.

Amnoriath
2015-09-03, 06:32 AM
1. Yes, it's very unlikely for a warrior to fail a constitution or strength check, but not, as you said before, all saves. If you think that's really a sticking point, I suppose I could get rid of the expertise part. Before reducing it further, would you suggest that other classes must then choose one saving throw for all of their abilities to target? Say, a wizard that can only cast spells that target dex. Or is being able to target multiple saves a strength of the class and within reason?

2. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that the fighter should be better at soaking damage and dealing it than the wizard. That said, Arcane Ward is once per day, though it can be recharged out of combat through rituals and later, spell mastery. Power Word Kill is precise like a surgeon's scalpel and can be used at just the right moment. Due to the short combat times and random nature of dice, the Execute ability doesn't have that same level of reliability. As well, the attack takes the entire Action, and if it misses, it can't be used again for the rest of the encounter. With Power Word Kill, as long as you satisfy the hp requirement, it works every time.

3. So what you seem to be saying is that certain powers should be restricted to higher levels. That certainly seems doable, and would give players something to look forward to as they invest in the class. As for comparing it to the druid capstone, that's just one of many examples of how this is within the realm of reason because it doesn't rise to that level.

Yes, the class is effective in combat. But does it have the same effectiveness as a wizard in the body of an adult red dragon? The same utility as the Wish spell? Put another way, do you really think that with the tools at their disposal such as polymorph, animate dead, reverse gravity, and the like, that these classes are so much weaker in comparison to this class, that even with the versatility and raw utility of spellcasting, no one would want to be a druid, cleric, bard, or wizard with such a class on the table?

1. The problem with this sub-class to begin with is your intention. Even if you moderated all the math and extraordinary abilities you made this with the intention of "fixing" the class in your eyes. This means that as long as you have that intention for this it will be better than any other martial fighting option.
2. Straw man, fighters already are.:smallannoyed: You brought that ability up and I was comparing you Warrior more to the Druid or Barbarian. If you have abjuration rituals. Ultimately, your recharging is so much better since it replenishes it entirely each use and despite Arcane Ward being broken you still have another choice. Execute also has more killing potential because you initiate an attack with it.
3. See #1, ultimately a sub-class is suppose to have a theme. This has none other than I want the Fighter to do all these things. I am sorry if this seems snarky, but this sub-class doesn't have any flavor and has a system in which it only has to watch one set of abilities each to know if they can use them or not. Power Word Kill also takes away that ability to be a red dragon while you never have to worry about such resource management. Yes, they are powerful abilities but most are not at all insurmountable and are regulated but those are spells with either high costs, limited stock which replaces others, or can be used against the caster. Then ultimately they only can use them a couple of times per day while yours is very plentiful through out the day.

Ninja_Prawn
2015-09-03, 07:22 AM
Sorry Quadratic, but the others are right. This is way overpowered. Fighter is already king of at-will weapon damage, and you want to chuck a ton of extra dice on there? Superiority dice are limited for a reason. Sneak Attack and Divine Smite bring rogues and paladins up to the level of the fighter in specific situations, this archetype takes all the shine off of those, which are good, iconic abilities.