New player needs swordsage help 3.5

[Lord of Lustria]

Hello everyone, I am fairly new to 3.5 and D&D and I was wondering if people could suggest some cool feats and suggest what discipline is best for a sword sage who is themed like a Ronin (Preferably using a bastard sword/katana). And before I hear someone suggest it I know Rhonin is it's own thing in 3.5 but I don't like the samurai or rhonin abilities as much as the martial maneuvers. I really like shadowhand if that helps, but I am not sure how to incorporate fighting with a 2 handed sword into a sneaky guy. Thanks. Also I am working with the stats 18, 17, 15, 14, 11, 10. This is a first level character but I would like to plan ahead to at least level 3 so I know where I am going with this. I would like to play a human.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A Swordsage gets enough maneuvers that you can focus on multiple disciplines. To represent a Ronin, I would get strikes from Diamond Mind and Stone Dragon, boosts and utility maneuvers from Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw, and a few counters from Desert Wind.

You pretty much always want to get Adaptive Style on a Swordsage. You'll probably want to go with a higher Str than Dex, so use the katana two-handed as a martial weapon and don't bother with EWP, and you'll want Power Attack which works great with Emerald Razor. I would go Str 18, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 17, Cha 11, and of course put your first level-up points into Wis and Dex.

[sovin_ndore]

This may not be build advice per se, but I personally think that Warblade is actually intended to be the Samurai archetype. On a related note, only two disciplines have Bastard Sword (Katana) as an associated weapons: Diamond Mind (Swordsage or Warblade) and Iron Heart (Warblade only), the weapon synergy may also be a consideration if you are looking at style specific feats or if you were considering Blade Meditation.

Relative to your current concept, at level 1 you have two major handicaps as a Swordsage. First, as Biff mentioned, you will really need Adaptive Style. It is kind of essential if you need any sort of adaptability to your prepped maneuvers and will eat up your first level feat (you may still have another feat from Human). Second, you also are going to be extremely squishy walking into the game. Your abilities are melee only and you don't get your AC bonus until level two. This means that most anyone that is able to wear armor and who has a positive Dex modifier will have a better AC than you walking in. You will be depending alot on your HP to keep you alive so don't skimp on Con and choose your first stance to help with your durability up front. Your second stance can be chosen more for versatility.

As for Maneuvers, you get alot as a Swordsage. Take what you want and you will probably be diverse enough to get what you will want later in the build. I would probably suggest building your maneuvers to level 5 or so just to make sure you will meet pre-reqs but that is probably not too much of a concern.

What race are you running?

[Nifft]

Swordsage is wonderful, but it's more wonderful for skirmishers and ninja-types.

Shadow Hand, Desert Wind, and Setting Sun are the three exclusive schools. Those are very elusive and mystical, but not very stand-up-and-fight.

I agree with sovin_ndore, the Warblade is probably a better fit for a Samurai or Ronin type... unless the Ronin only pretends to be fighting you, until he teleports behind you and hits you with a fire-bolt, then charges on another bolt of fire, and finally turns invisible to run away for a turn, so he can get ready to do it all over again.

[BowStreetRunner]

One thing to consider is that Martial Adept classes all multi-class fairly well. Due to other class levels each being worth 1/2 Initiator Level you don't suffer as much for dipping another class as something like a primary caster would. So you could take your first level in another class and then pick up swordsage a couple levels further on. This might even thematically support your Ronin backstory too.

[Telonius]

Shadow Hand-focused builds, and any other build that gives bonus damage for sneak attacks (or Sudden Strike, etc), usually benefit from two-weapon fighting. The reason being, that your bonus damage happens per hit, and the more hits, the more damage. These builds usually prioritize Dexterity over Strength, for prerequisites (Two Weapon Fighting requires Dex 15; Improved and Greater require more), for the fact that light weapons (which most TWF'ers use) don't get any bonuses from Power Attack, and for the fact that you can add your Dex to attack and damage with Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade.

One problem with this is that the katana (or Bastard Sword if you're using the same stats) is not one of the Shadow Hand weapons, so TWF'ing with it will not give you anything from Shadow Blade.

Would you be open to using dual Short Swords?

[Lord of Lustria]

Actually one other thing that I think could be cool would be if I was a Rhonin that has dishonored himself and had my katana taken from me and so I just go around throwing people with setting sun and using anything else that is good with unarmed. If I were to do that would I want to take a level in monk for the unarmed strikes? also I would be open to maybe running a warblade, I just wanted to be decent at skills too. Also is it right that swordsages get 6+int x 6 at level 1? I havent seen another class that gets that.

[Nifft]

Actually one other thing that I think could be cool would be if I was a Rhonin that has dishonored himself and had my katana taken from me and so I just go around throwing people with setting sun and using anything else that is good with unarmed. If I were to do that would I want to take a level in monk for the unarmed strikes? also I would be open to maybe running a warblade, I just wanted to be decent at skills too. Warblades get 4+Int skill points, which is almost as many as Swordsage gets, and Warblade has a bunch of bonuses which key off Intelligence so you get more skill points from having a higher Int rather than a higher Wis score.

And IMHO there's nothing wrong with making a Swordsage Ronin, it's just that a Warblade Ronin is probably easier and will be a more natural fit.


Also is it right that swordsages get 6+int x 6 at level 1? I havent seen another class that gets that. That seems to have been an editing error.

All classes get (X+Int) x 4 at level 1.

However, feel free to tell your DM that this is probably a mistake, but then ask if you can have it anyway. A few extra skill points at level 1 isn't going to break the game, even if it's not actually legal.

[rrwoods]

Also is it right that swordsages get 6+int x 6 at level 1? I havent seen another class that gets that.
It's not right -- and neither is their base attack bonus progression. You'll want to copy the BAB progression from Rogue (I think there's two places on the Swordsage chart where it's off by one for one reason or another).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That seems to have been an editing error.

All classes get (X+Int) x 4 at level 1.

However, feel free to tell your DM that this is probably a mistake, but then ask if you can have it anyway. A few extra skill points at level 1 isn't going to break the game, even if it's not actually legal.


It's not right -- and neither is their base attack bonus progression. You'll want to copy the BAB progression from Rogue (I think there's two places on the Swordsage chart where it's off by one for one reason or another).

The official ToB errata (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) gets past Swordsage without changing its 1st level skill points or BAB, so RAW it stays as printed.

As it appears in the book, they get an extra 12+(6xInt)+(6 if human) skill points at 1st level, which is often no more than 18 skill points, and considering you cannot take more then 4 ranks in a skill at 1st level it just gives the character a whole lot of low-rank skills starting out that probably won't get any more ranks added to them for the rest of his career. This is not game-breaking, it just adds a lot of versatility and skillful capabilities to the character.

As it appears in the book, their BAB is one point higher than normal at their 13th and 17th class level, otherwise it's identical to the 3/4 BAB progression. Having an extra +1 to hit that doesn't affect iterative attacks that only lasts for two whole character levels is not game-breaking at all.