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Sutremaine
2007-05-10, 06:09 PM
Full plate offers 9 (8 from the armour itself, 1 from Dex), and without going outside core that can be increased to 11 by using mithral to increase the Dex bonus. Is there any equivalent material or process that can be applied to the high-Dex armours?

Also, are there any bits of miscellaneous armour other than dastana and chahar-aina?

Penguinsushi
2007-05-10, 06:41 PM
Races of Stone has Mountain Plate (+10 armor, +0 max dex) and Extreme shields (+3) (if you don't want to use a tower).

Of course, making the armor adamantine would give you DR 3/- It's not AC, but still non-magical protection. Mithril would also help you with your dex bonus there too.

I think that's about the best I've got...

~PS

aaron_the_cow
2007-05-10, 07:17 PM
use a shield to get to 10 and they normialy hand out free rings of protection on your first adventrue (at least in 1st and 2nd ed.) so theres 11 right there.

Jack Mann
2007-05-10, 07:32 PM
You can apply mithral to a breastplate or a chain shirt as well, for the same basic effect.

JaronK
2007-05-10, 07:57 PM
Mithral mechanicus gear and a tower shield is about the best you can do. Mechanicus gear is from the Planar Handbook, and provides +10AC with a max dex bonus of 0 (plus it slows you down more than normal heavy armour, unless of course you're a dwarf).

JaronK

Jayabalard
2007-05-10, 07:59 PM
use a shield to get to 10 and they normialy hand out free rings of protection on your first adventruewhat? who's they, and why would they do that?

EagleWiz
2007-05-10, 08:08 PM
They are the nice DM's

Penguinsushi
2007-05-10, 08:08 PM
use a shield to get to 10 and they normialy hand out free rings of protection on your first adventrue (at least in 1st and 2nd ed.) so theres 11 right there.

I'm not sure what the context for Sutremaine's request is, but I don't think it's a low-level/money issue - any character that could afford mithril, mountain plate or any of the other suggestions could easily buy a ring of prot. I think the point is to do the best without magic at all...

...and what Jayabalard (above) said.

~PS

Sutremaine
2007-05-10, 08:59 PM
There are lots of things to increase the max Dex bonuses on the heavier armours, but nothing much that boosts the max potential AC of lighter, non-metal armour. Full plate and padded armour both start at 9 AC, but it's far easier to raise the full plate's potential AC than the padded armour's potential AC. I accept that sooner or later the Dex-monster is going to have to strap on some metal if he really needs the AC, but the later the better. :smallbiggrin:

Caelestion
2007-05-10, 09:09 PM
Well, when playing a rogue with Dex 30, I found I couldn't wear armour or I'd lose AC. I had to settle for bracers of armour!

the_tick_rules
2007-05-10, 09:11 PM
dex of 30, who needs a girlfriend if your THAT flexible :wink:

Sutremaine
2007-05-10, 09:28 PM
dex of 30, who needs a girlfriend if your THAT flexible :wink:
O_*
Thank you for that brief but searing mental image. Not that I have a problem with that particular activity, it's just that the question of what to wear is attached to a specific (though theoretic) character.

I'll probably have to get an animated shield to cover the enhancement bonus that's lost if you skip the armour. They're kind of cheesy, but they're so useful and they don't have to fly around like the world's biggest Ioun Stone.

Penguinsushi
2007-05-10, 09:33 PM
Races of Stone has Mountain Plate (+10 armor, +0 max dex) and Extreme shields (+3) (if you don't want to use a tower).

Oh - I forgot to mention the feat 'Heavy Armor Optimization' from the same book, which raises the armor bonus by 1, and reduced the check penalty by 1. There is also a 'Greater' version of this feat with a higher prereq.

So, a character of sufficient level wearing mithral mountain plate with an extreme shield and greater heavy armor optimization, and the right exotic armor and exotic shield prof's can get +12 armor, +2 dex, +3 shield for AC 27 with no magic. (a tower shield would give you 28 and you could keep a feat, but you have an attack penalty with that one)

~PS

JaronK
2007-05-10, 10:02 PM
Mountain Plate is pretty much strictly worse than Mechanicus Gear.

JaronK

Jayabalard
2007-05-11, 11:18 AM
They are the nice DM'sIn my book, "hand[ing] out free [insert magic item here] on your first adventure" is closer to monty haul than it is to nice...

and rings of protection doesn't really help answer the highest AC from non-magic armor question.... I dunno, that seems to hint that this may be for a low magic campaign, at least to me.

Penguinsushi
2007-05-11, 11:25 AM
Mountain Plate is pretty much strictly worse than Mechanicus Gear.

JaronK

*shrugs* - I wouldn't know, I don't have the Planar Handbook. Gotta work with the sources I have, you know?

Yeah, since they've started putting out a book or two a month, I've had to be more picky about which ones I try to pick up. :smallannoyed:


In my book, "hand[ing] out free [insert magic item here] on your first adventure" is closer to monty haul than it is to nice...

Yeah. Even in a high magic campaign, there should be more 'earning' the loot in there than implied by the 'handing out free...' statement. ...But then, I've been told I can be stingy with the treasure...

~PS

Citizen Joe
2007-05-11, 12:04 PM
Well lets see...
Start with 10
level 5 fighter
gnome, small creature +1 size bonus
Dexterity 12, +1 dexterity bonus
Full Plate +8 Armour Bonus
Tower Shield +4 Shield bonus
Gnome vs. Giant +4 dodge bonus
Combat Expertise w/ +5 BAB, = +5 dodge bonus (note that this could be unlimited with Improved Combat Expertise)
Dodge feat +1 dodge bonus vs 1 opponent

That's 34 AC vs a specific giant, while taking -7 to your attack (-5 from combat expertise, -2 from the shield). You may also want to spike your armour just in case someone decides grappling is better.

Telonius
2007-05-11, 12:07 PM
There was another thread around somewhere, some of the posters were able to fiddle it so a level 20 duellist gnome could get 60+ AC from a variety of actions. The build involved a Monk's Belt, Defending weapons and included dangling off of his riding dog's saddle if I'm remembering correctly. And all of it was Core.

Swooper
2007-05-11, 12:31 PM
I can get a Knight up to above AC 60 with core magic items only.

10 base
+13 full plate +5
+1 dex
+1 dodge
+10 Large Shield +5 (with the Knight's bonus to shield use at lvl 20)
+5 Amulet of Natural Armour
+5 Ring of Protection
+20 Improved Combat Expertise
... I guess I could make him small for an extra +1.

That's an AC of 66. I'm sure I was able to bump it up to 67, can't remember what it was though.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-11, 12:37 PM
Well lets see...
Start with 10
level 5 fighter
gnome, small creature +1 size bonus
Dexterity 12, +1 dexterity bonus
Full Plate +8 Armour Bonus
Tower Shield +4 Shield bonus
Gnome vs. Giant +4 dodge bonus
Combat Expertise w/ +5 BAB, = +5 dodge bonus (note that this could be unlimited with Improved Combat Expertise)
Dodge feat +1 dodge bonus vs 1 opponent

That's 34 AC vs a specific giant, while taking -7 to your attack (-5 from combat expertise, -2 from the shield). You may also want to spike your armour just in case someone decides grappling is better.

Mithral Full Plate, and another four points of Dex, will get you another 2.

Pink
2007-05-11, 12:37 PM
I can get a Knight up to above AC 60 with core magic items only.

10 base
+13 full plate +5
+1 dex
+1 dodge
+10 Large Shield +5 (with the Knight's bonus to shield use at lvl 20)
+5 Amulet of Natural Armour
+5 Ring of Protection
+20 Improved Combat Expertise
... I guess I could make him small for an extra +1.

That's an AC of 66. I'm sure I was able to bump it up to 67, can't remember what it was though.

You sir have missed the point of this thread entirely.

SpikeFightwicky
2007-05-11, 01:06 PM
Well lets see...
Start with 10
level 5 fighter
gnome, small creature +1 size bonus
Dexterity 12, +1 dexterity bonus
Full Plate +8 Armour Bonus
Tower Shield +4 Shield bonus
Gnome vs. Giant +4 dodge bonus
Combat Expertise w/ +5 BAB, = +5 dodge bonus (note that this could be unlimited with Improved Combat Expertise)
Dodge feat +1 dodge bonus vs 1 opponent

That's 34 AC vs a specific giant, while taking -7 to your attack (-5 from combat expertise, -2 from the shield). You may also want to spike your armour just in case someone decides grappling is better.


Mithral Full Plate, and another four points of Dex, will get you another 2.

Fight Defensively for another +2 (+3 if you put cross-class ranks into tumble until you had 5 ranks), total defense for +4 (+6 if you put cross-class ranks into tumble until you had 5 ranks).

Total AC vs giants: 38/39 AC while 'defensively' fighting (depending on tumble) -11 to your attack, 40/41 AC during a total defense.

Telonius
2007-05-11, 01:22 PM
Gnome Monk 10/Duellist 10
Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise, Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Defense.
Assume Dex, Int, and Wis 16.
5 ranks in Tumble
Monk wields 2 kamas.
Base AC 10
+1 Size
+2AC (Monk)
Wis +3AC
Canny Defense: Int +3AC
Dex +3AC
Dodge +1
Combat Expertise +5 AC
Fight Defensively +5AC (+2AC +1AC Tumble +2 Two-weapon defense)
Elaborate Parry +10AC
vs Giant +4AC

Total: 47AC, no armor and no magic items at all. 43AC versus non-giants.

Roderick_BR
2007-05-11, 01:25 PM
Mountain Plate from Races of Stone is bad, because it reduces your speed to 15 feet if your base speed is 30, and to 10 if your base speed is 20! Plus, you can't run or charge. It's only good if you are an expert in ranged attacks.

Ah, you can add Shield Specialization (PHB2), for a +1 to your shield. With that, you can get feats like Shield Ward(also PHB2), to add your shield bonus against touch attacks.

Hurlbut
2007-05-11, 01:31 PM
Mountain Plate from Races of Stone is bad, because it reduces your speed to 15 feet if your base speed is 30, and to 10 if your base speed is 20! Plus, you can't run or charge. It's only good if you are an expert in ranged attacks.


Um you guys forgot something, it's a dwarven exotic armor, meaning you need a proficiency feat for it.

Jayabalard
2007-05-11, 01:33 PM
I can get a Knight up to above AC 60 with core magic items only.

10 base
+13 full plate +5
+1 dex
+1 dodge
+10 Large Shield +5 (with the Knight's bonus to shield use at lvl 20)
+5 Amulet of Natural Armour
+5 Ring of Protection
+20 Improved Combat Expertise
... I guess I could make him small for an extra +1.

That's an AC of 66. I'm sure I was able to bump it up to 67, can't remember what it was though.Did you miss the "non-magic armor" part of the request?

Penguinsushi
2007-05-11, 01:43 PM
Um you guys forgot something, it's a dwarven exotic armor, meaning you need a proficiency feat for it.

Yeah, I didn't mentioned that directly, but in my second bit I pointed out you'd need the right exotic armor prof and shield feats for my thought to work...

Yeah, it slows you down, but I wasn't worried about speed so much as AC.

~PS

MeanJoeSmith75
2007-05-11, 03:17 PM
To those posting Tumbling bonuses to a character in Full Plate. Beware of the exhausted DM that finally says enough. I would rule that if the armor has a signifigant Check penalty, no matter how high your tumble skill is it impedes.

Prustan
2007-05-11, 03:51 PM
Synergy bonuses don't count bonuses or penalties to your skill, only your ranks in the skill. So the Armor check penalty of -4 to -6 (depending on your Full Plate being normal, MW or Mithral) doesn't affect the Tumble bonus for fighting defensively/total defense.

Sutremaine
2007-05-11, 06:46 PM
I would rule that if the armor has a signifigant Check penalty, no matter how high your tumble skill is it impedes.
I would give up and play a full caster. Everyone's too busy chiding the non-casters to notice what wizards do to the rules of reality.

Anyway, armour works as well in a high-magic campaign as a low-magic one. Magical enhancements don't make your mundane protections go away.