Arcane version of Implosion?

[Melcar]

Hi guys...

I was wondering what your initial thought on a area effect spell, that functioned like the cleric spell Implosion?

I was thinking somehow to have it be either a 40ft radius spread effect, or have it be based on the amount of component matter, as to effectively increase the size of the "Event Horizon"

Please give me your thought on this...

PS: I am also looking for great ideas for the spell component for such a spell.

THanks

[Glimbur]

AoE fort save or die sounds a lot like Wail of the Banshee. Wail has several issues: it's a [death] effect which makes it blockable, and it's one creature per CL. It can kill more people than Implosion, which is at most 4. They're both 9th level, so we don't have room to go higher in level to drop the [death] tag. You could probably justify doing piles of damage in a 40' burst, with a fort save for half, but an AoE implosion should be higher level and it can't be (barring epic which is silly). 1d6 per CL untyped damage with no cap, Fort save for half... might not be worth 9th level. Might have to throw in a couple extra d6 or have it scale differently.

[AeonsShadow]

I agree with having it scale differently. But on top of that it should cost more. Something like using an expensive diamond as the focal point for the spell which is destroyed after the casting. I feel there should be more then one save for the spell... a strength check to keep from going towards the Center and adopt check to halve the damage. The damage should probably also scale depending on how close to the center you are and anything that is killed or has its HP reduced to zero while the spell is active immediately goes towards the center and is crushed by the implosion.

[SkipSandwich]

This sounds like the sort of thing that should require multiple saving throws, in this case, a Reflex Save to avoid being thrown directly into the implosion effect followed by damage with a fort save for half, where if the damage kills you your body is destroyed as per disintegrate.

Reflex Save to remain standing where you are, if failed you fall prone and are dragged into the center of the effect where you are subject to 2d6 damage per CL (fort half)

If you succeed the reflex save you remain standing where you are but are still subject to space and gravity distorting around you, and take 1d6 per CL damage (fort half)

[noob]

"AoE fort save or die sounds a lot like Wail of the Banshee. Wail has several issues: it's a [death] effect which makes it blockable, and it's one creature per CL. It can kill more people than Implosion, which is at most 4. They're both 9th level, so we don't have room to go higher in level to drop the [death] tag. You could probably justify doing piles of damage in a 40' burst, with a fort save for half, but an AoE implosion should be higher level and it can't be (barring epic which is silly). 1d6 per CL untyped damage with no cap, Fort save for half... might not be worth 9th level. Might have to throw in a couple extra d6 or have it scale differently."

Wail of the banshee is a single target spell because everyone carries 40 frogs at this level so that if they are hit nobody else is hit because the frogs counts as targets too(so with one wail of the banshee you kill only one adventurer or opponent).
Wail of the banshee is a poor spell which have been wrongly designed and does not do what it is meant to do.

[Network]

Wail of the banshee is a single target spell because everyone carries 40 frogs at this level so that if they are hit nobody else is hit because the frogs counts as targets too(so with one wail of the banshee you kill only one adventurer or opponent).
Wail of the banshee is a poor spell which have been wrongly designed and does not do what it is meant to do.
I'm sure you can't kill the frogs with an AoE spell before that...

Seriously, frogs? What kind of weird player would think of using that when everyone else is protected with Death Ward?

[noob]

"Seriously, frogs? What kind of weird player would think of using that when everyone else is protected with Death Ward? "
When you are really poor and that the wizards always teleport and cast wail of the banshee it works.
If people go from the principle everybody is going to be immune to this then it makes even less sense for this spell to exist also toads can not be disjuncted.
Also wail of the banshee kills the nearest creatures in the order and toads(I made an error I meant toad) are in the monster manual and are creatures of FP 1/10 which does not have any attacks and have 1/4 of DV.
Also Toads are probably going to be way cheaper to stop team wide wipes than other items protecting you.
Also it can protect npcs that are here for some curious reason if the player is nearer to the caster than the npc is.

[Network]

When you are really poor and that the wizards always teleport and cast wail of the banshee it works.
If people go from the principle everybody is going to be immune to this then it makes even less sense for this spell to exist also toads can not be disjuncted.
Also wail of the banshee kills the nearest creatures in the order and toads(I made an error I meant toad) are in the monster manual and are creatures of FP 1/10 which does not have any attacks and have 1/4 of DV.
Also Toads are probably going to be way cheaper to stop team wide wipes than other items protecting you.
Also it can protect npcs that are here for some curious reason if the player is nearer to the caster than the npc is.
Most characters won't use Disjunction since it makes precious magic items unusable. They could dispel Death Ward, but other SoD spells are much more effective if your opponent has the bare minimum immunities required for adventuring (ie. immunity to death, fear, and mind-affecting effects).

What you don't realize is that Wail of the Banshee is meant to take down mooks, while Implosion is meant for TPK. Both spells are incredible at their intended purpose, and unlike Wish or some other broken spell they don't require you to waste XP. A useless spell is more like Weird something.

[Melcar]

Thank you all for your comments so far... Keep them coming!

Now... in terms of damage, some have suggested 2d6 point of damage per casterlevel. That would effectively be an AOE Dissintegrate, and that was not what I was looking for. I was looking for an AOE implossion. I do appreaciate all the ideas, dont get me wrong, but high damage in an AOE is just not what I'm looking for as of right now. :smallbiggrin:

So I ask again, what would be reasonable, if I wanted to create an AOE implossion?

Level 9 - check
expensive component - check

What else?

Or do you guys simply deem it beyong the power scope of a level 9 spell - even with expensive components?

[Network]

I, personally, would suggest a spell that deals no damage, but kills creatures that have less hp than the limit (essentially like the Death domain granted power). The AoE would have to be small (no more than a 10-ft.-radius spread), and the spell shoud allow a Fortitude save to negate the effect (otherwise it's just a better Power Word: Kill). Unlike Implosion, the spell would be instantaneous.

I would recommend a limit of 10 hp per caster level, instead of 2d6 per caster level, but that's just to reduce bookkeeping. As far as single-target damage spells go, there is a precedent for both calculations in the SRD (Harm and Disintegrate, respectively).

[Melcar]

I think I might put this project back in the bin... It seems that what I want more fits epic magic... Even though I hate it, the power of a AOE wizard implossion might be too much, even with very exotic and costly components.

Thanks for all the input guys...