OOTS #1002 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Cizak]

Oooh, things are heating up! :smallbiggrin:

[ManuelSacha]

This is exactly what I was afraid of.
Blind belief overpowering the clerics into becoming useless.

[Sinirmanga]

Poor Roy, he is still clueless about how vampirism works

[Capt Spanner]

I'm expecting Belkar to show up Big Damn Heroes style and save the day ... any minute now.

[AutomatedTeller]

Nice comic!

There are more clerics whose god voted no than whos god voted yes - Roy could get more support than Durkula. that said, he seems to be doing ok so far...

[NihhusHuotAliro]

So, that's why there are no buffs.

I like how Sunna's cleric wants to save the world, but doesn't want to defy his god. Good man.

[Zordrath]

Every one of Veldrina's lines and moments are pure gold, I hope she'll stick around for a while :smallbiggrin: I also hope one of the clerics will finally clue in Roy on the mechanics of Vampirism one of these days.

[Skios]

Well, it's always nice to be encouraged even if the person doing the encouraging instantly undercuts her own argument...

[Cavenskull]

Well, it's always nice to be encouraged even if the person doing the encouraging instantly undercuts her own argument...

It's almost like having Elan there to cheer him on.

[md5]

New in the forums, but I've been reading Rich's comics for many years

I really love the new artwork, plus the storyline is, as always, excellent. Can't wait to see what'll happen in this epic fight between Roy and Durkula :)

[dancrilis]

Nice I actually got that correct.

[Noodz]

This is even more insane than i thought it would be. I already kinda expected the other clerics to be impartial spectators. What i didn't expect is HPoH manipulating Roy into believing Durkon betrayed him, and it makes me wonder what else the HPoH has in mind.

On the mechanical side of things, i forgot to consider how Durkon's high AC would allow the HPoH to melee with Roy. Between a vampire's natural armor, magical full plate+shield and other gear, Durkon's AC can be as high as 35. This means Roy can't power attack for full effect (and it seems like Roy exagerated his power attacks, from the 8 swings depicted only 2 are shown to be solid hits). That in addition to having to deal with the 10/silver DR, fast healing 5 and immunity to crits. This melee won't be a walk in the park for Roy.

So here's hoping Rich comes up with another twist.

[endiku]

woot!

fast and furious - thanks Giant!

[RaggedAngel]

I love how, in a way, this is a perfect warm-up for the Big Bad Lich Fight. Roy has been training for ten levels to fight an undead spellcaster, and now there's an undead spellcaster right here.

That Starmetal sword has yet to light up, however. I bet it's being saved for when Roy finally decides, in his heart, that he needs to end Durkula.

[Kantaki]

The high priests don't intervene because it gives others a reason to do the same. No surprise there. And it is nice to see that the high priests trust there gods.

Wow, the High Priest of Hel is really evil. I mean helping your goddess to destroy the world so she may rule the next is one thing. But deliberatly making his host's best friend think that said host has become evil? That is just unnecessary pettyness.

Vel is great as usual.

[MDR]

Hmmm, are there any buff spells he might use that would actually harm an undead? If so, make him do it!

[Traab]

This is exactly what I was afraid of.
Blind belief overpowering the clerics into becoming useless.

Arent these guys like, the high priests of their religions? Do you really expect the "pope" of each group to go, "You know what? The god I have dedicated my entire life to serving and have done so faithfully for years/decades is probably wrong now. Im going to violate all the rules of this holy meeting, and ignore my gods choice and do what i want instead."?

Anyways, this fight is so far a lot closer than I expected. I was honestly expecting a lot of roy getting blasted with maybe some lucky starmetal procs keeping him in this fight. But instead it seems like they are really slugging it out and both are taking a lot of damage. I have to admit im surprised durkula is able to hold two conversations at the same time while fighting for his unlife though. That cant be a good sign.

[snowblizz]

Unsubstantiated belief is the best! Go Roy!

[Idiotic_Bird]

Ooooooooh man things are sure heating up. How did Roy counter all those spells? (Don't say he was 'Multitasking')I'm still wondering what happened to Belkar. He didn't die, did he?:smallconfused:

[Puschkin]

Why was Roy able to ignore that Hold Person? Made a will save again? It seems like there was no effect.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Well I guess that answers the question of intervention.

EDIT: hang on a second, do the high priests know that the vampire isn't Durkon?

[anjxed]

The high priest of balder left to get the demi gods so Roy and Durkula would get equal buffs

[Kantaki]

Ooooooooh man things are sure heating up. How did Roy counter all those spells? (Don't say he was 'Multitasking')I'm still wondering what happened to Belkar. He didn't die, did he?:smallconfused:

Roy didn't counter any spells. He made his safe against Durkon's hold Person and gor hurt by the inflict wounds/ harm spell.

Belkar is Schrödinger's god of war right now.:smallbiggrin:

[ellindsey]

This is exactly what I was afraid of.
Blind belief overpowering the clerics into becoming useless.

When your god manifests as a forty-foot-tall giant glowing figure and tells you what they want, your belief in their wishes is no longer blind.

[Kantaki]

Why was Roy able to ignore that Hold Person? Made a will save again? It seems like there was no effect.

Yes, he most likely made his save. And why should there be a effect? All that happens if the save Fails is that the target can't move.

[rgd20]

Every one of Veldrina's lines and moments are pure gold, I hope she'll stick around for a while :smallbiggrin: I also hope one of the clerics will finally clue in Roy on the mechanics of Vampirism one of these days.

Totally agree, it's how they can buff, WITH KNOWLEDGE!

Bob

[Ezekiel]

For some reason the "internal church dispute" reminds me of the Reformed/Orthodox Church of Banjo strip from the beginning. :smallbiggrin:

I would actually be disappointed if one of the clerics let their personal feelings get in the way of what their deity wished. I think we've seen again and again in OOTS that clerics, whoever they follow are devoted to their god's wishes at all costs.

[TurboGhast]

Arent these guys like, the high priests of their religions? Do you really expect the "pope" of each group to go, "You know what? The god I have dedicated my entire life to serving and have done so faithfully for years/decades is probably wrong now. Im going to violate all the rules of this holy meeting, and ignore my gods choice and do what i want instead."?

Anyways, this fight is so far a lot closer than I expected. I was honestly expecting a lot of roy getting blasted with maybe some lucky starmetal procs keeping him in this fight. But instead it seems like they are really slugging it out and both are taking a lot of damage. I have to admit im surprised durkula is able to hold two conversations at the same time while fighting for his unlife though. That cant be a good sign.

One of those conversations is taking place at the speed of thought. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0948.html) Alongside that, conversations during fight scenes are very common in this comic.

[Sloanzilla]

So...

2nd made will save, this time vs hold person
Failed will save vs. a cause critical wounds?

Roy hits once out of three attacks vs. Durkon's AC 35+/DR 10/fast healing 5.


Why do vampires even have a natural armor bonus? Being a vampire doesn't make you a rhino or a dinosaur. You are faster and sneaker, sure, but not thicker skinned.

[Breccia]

Well that resolves some major questions, don't it?

[NotNale]

Fascinating. Roy is holding in better than I thought.

Did we ever determine how damage is represented? Durkon's spell caused damage -- Roy now has a "#" sign on his face. The giant does a great job of representing the effects of the D&D 'verse in the comic, while keeping the narrative alive, and in other battles you can see the effects of the damage taken through the symbols in the art -- was there a thread on that at some point?

And Giant, excellent work as always. I still have the feeling that the decisive moment in the battle is going to come in Durkon's head.

[Kurald Galain]

Arent these guys like, the high priests of their religions? Do you really expect the "pope" of each group to go, "You know what? The god I have dedicated my entire life to serving and have done so faithfully for years/decades is probably wrong now. Im going to violate all the rules of this holy meeting, and ignore my gods choice and do what i want instead."?

For any high priests of the god of Strife, Betrayal, or Deceit? Most definitely. Of course, this particular pantheon doesn't have those.

For any chaotic high priests? Possibly. For their bodyguards? Somewhat more possibly, even, as they have more at stake here. However, there's always the Bystander Effect; that alone could stop any number of people from acting long enough for their actions to become irrelevant.

[Kranerian]

Silly Durkula, Roy can make any will save you can dish out. (I hope)

[hroþila]

Don't worry, Veldrina. Unsubstantiated beliefs are good enough for me to base my life upon.

Roy is holding up pretty well so far, but they've been going at it for, like, 3 rounds, and Durkon wasted 2 of them because his moves didn't work before he decided he needed to start hurting his enemy. Things are likely to get worse for Roy for a while.

[Quild]

Would HPoH have a point if Redcloak hadn't given a fake phylactery to Xykon?

Or could Xykon survive the world's destruction because Astral Plane wouldn't have been affected?

[pendell]

Excellent update.



That Starmetal sword has yet to light up, however. I bet it's being saved for when Roy finally decides, in his heart, that he needs to end Durkula.


More likely for the dramatic appropriate moment, but I still don't think Roy will win.

Although it seems to me that Durkula is fighting at quite a bit less than his full potential. He's used clerical powers which Roy negates with his will save and his own domination attack which, again, is negated by will.

He's a vampire. Can't he do significant harm in melee with just his own natural weapons and strength, to say nothing of the slam attack?

...

Is Durkula deliberately fighting a defensive action in order to prolong the fight so that the vote can be counted?

That might make sense. If he fights offensively he is risking being destroyed by Roy , which will fail his existence-long mission. Delaying minimizes the risk to himself while increasing the chance that the demigods will cast their votes.

...

I understand where the one cleric is coming from. This is a debate between gods, not mortals, and in any situation save one where the existence of the entire world is at stake, disrupting a godsmoot by murdering one of the representatives is not at all the sort of thing either gods or clerics would want to encourage. It frays at the fragile truce , bonds, and compacts which keep the pantheon operable and threatens a war of the gods.

TBH, I'm thankful they've decided not to interfere and let Roy+Durkula sort it out. After all, they could do more than not just interfere. They *could* have, as a body, restrained Roy and ejected or executed him. As it is, they're giving him full play to be a Big Damn Hero, and heroism is what Roy does best.

Respectfulluy,

Brian P.

[Person_Man]

So it looks like the next few comics are answers to forum theories and/or explaining what the heck is going on?

Regardless, its all awesome sauce.

[Psyren]

The High Priest of the Sun, helping a vampire? What a tweest! :smallbiggrin:

[Breccia]

This is exactly what I was afraid of.
Blind belief overpowering the clerics into becoming useless.

I'm not sure this term applies to a high priest in the D&D universe who directly contacts their own deity, and that contact provides them with the ability to move mountains, control the weather, raise the dead or create castles out of nothing. This is not something the 21st century nonfiction world can really parallel.

[Broken Crown]

That Starmetal sword has yet to light up, however. I bet it's being saved for when Roy finally decides, in his heart, that he needs to end Durkula.

I've been thinking the same thing. Especially after HPoH's line about Roy holding back – sounds like foreshadowing to me.

[ben-zayb]

Finally! Puts some of those buffing questions to rest

I better enjoy this likely-oneoff trashtalk between the two.:smallamused:

[Kantaki]

Would HPoH have a point if Redcloak hadn't given a fake phylactery to Xykon?

Or could Xykon survive the world's destruction because Astral Plane wouldn't have been affected?

That would depend on of the whole "souls are taken to their rightful afterlife" deal works.

If the gods just pluck the souls off the world then Xykon most likely would die.

If they just blow everything up and the souls are released naturally then Xykon would wake up in his fortress, had Redcloak not done the swapping of the holy symbols.

That assumes that "world" refers to the material plane of course.
With it should since the gods hid on other planes last time the Snarl wanted to Play.

[UristMcRandom]

Fantastic comic. The exposition from the clerics was nice, and Veldrina was priceless as usual.


Belkar is Schrödinger's god of war right now.:smallbiggrin:
Very nicely done. xP

[littlebum2002]

So I guess the question is answered: Yes, the clerics CAN buff Roy, but no, they wouldnt want to.

[drazen]

As dramatic as all this is, can't the High Priest of Heimdall end it by committing suicide?

He was a yes vote and if the vote does not count when he is in the room, then the vote is 8-7 No, and all the tie-breaking demi-gods in the world can't change it.

The rules mention attacking other priests or changing a vote, but do they mention nullifying your vote?

[Marp]

I'm loving every panel of this.

I guess this puts the speculations about possible interference by the high priests to rest :smallwink:. And so they stand and look on as the fate of the whole world is decided by a duel between a fighter and a vampire cleric.

This is so tense!

[Kantaki]

As dramatic as all this is, can't the High Priest of Heimdall end it by committing suicide?

He was a yes vote and if the vote does not count when he is in the room, then the vote is 8-7 No, and all the tie-breaking demi-gods in the world can't change it.

The rules mention attacking other priests or changing a vote, but do they mention nullifying your vote?

It might work, but I think it could be that it would count as changing the vote.

[jrmasson]

"That would be an eccumenical matter."

[HandofShadows]

Fight! Hasn't Roy figured out it's not his friend yet. :smallfrown:

[Bulldog Psion]

Fight! Hasn't Roy figured out it's not his friend yet. :smallfrown:

I wonder if he'll be savvy enough to notice the total lack of accent.

Of course, it's probably not high on the list of things you're mulling over while fighting desperately for your life against a spell-slinging undead abomination. :smallbiggrin:

[ScaldnCoffeeCup]

Love the new look battle damage on Durkula

[Windscion]

"Internal church dispute" sounds much better than 'rules-lawyering' to explain why a bodyguard can assassinate his own cleric. And yeah, they could certainly buff Roy with the power of ... KNOWLEDGE! Hopefully the verbal duel clues them in to the need to do so.

[Cazero]

Why do vampires even have a natural armor bonus? Being a vampire doesn't make you a rhino or a dinosaur. You are faster and sneaker, sure, but not thicker skinned.
AC abstraction is just a mess like that.


He's a vampire. Can't he do significant harm in melee with just his own natural weapons and strength, to say nothing of the slam attack?
No he can't. He's not a monster manual vampire with spellcaster abilities glued on, he's a dwarf cleric with the vampire template. Without spell enhancements his melee potential remains strictly inferior to a fighter.

[Kurald Galain]

As dramatic as all this is, can't the High Priest of Heimdall end it by committing suicide?

Sure, but wanna bet that suicide is against the doctrine of the God of the Watch?

[Stabbey]

The priests might not be able to cast buff spells, but if they realize that Roy thinks that the vampire is the same person he was when alive, they could tell him otherwise, and that could help.

[Seward]

Why was Roy able to ignore that Hold Person? Made a will save again? It seems like there was no effect.

Hold person is a level 2 spell. That means when you are level 15, even with a bad save you'll probably make it because the way D&D scales, spellcasters need to use high level spells to get the saving throw difficulty high enough to have a good chance of sticking the spell. Hold person is designed for level 3-4 targets.

Now if you didn't do anything to help your will save between level 3 and level 15, you could end up like Belkar vs Malak. But somebody who makes any effort at all will have a good chance of making the save. This sort of thing is why the Heighten Spell feat exists, especially for spontaneous casters - it lets you take a powerful but low level spell like Hold Person or Charm Person and crank it up to the highest spell level/spell DC you can manage.

[Peelee]

Poor Roy, he is still clueless about how vampirism works


Fight! Hasn't Roy figured out it's not his friend yet. :smallfrown:

How were you guys expecting him to? This is somethong that divided the entire forum at the time, up until the big reveal of Hel. Just because we got inside information does not mean the characters should then be able to instantly reason it out. Roy has had a few clues, but we have to keep in mind, it's been very few. And add knowing on how vampirism works to start with is rare, this isn't something you should expect to happen at any time.

[Seward]

One of those conversations is taking place at the speed of thought. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0948.html) Alongside that, conversations during fight scenes are very common in this comic.

In D&D, talking is a free action. You can monologue all you want until the GM says that you have to stop, because that's "too much". for a 6 second round. In practice it is much like superhero comics, where as long as you can fit it in a panel the dialog can be huge. This is one of the reasons a webcomic is a good medium for OOTS

[pendell]

AC abstraction is just a mess like that.


No he can't. He's not a monster manual vampire with spellcaster abilities glued on, he's a dwarf cleric with the vampire template. Without spell enhancements his melee potential remains strictly inferior to a fighter.

He still has the slam attack, doesn't he? Inflict enough negative levels on Roy and he is no longer a threat.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[foobar1969]

Roy isn't using his anti-caster feat yet. :smallconfused: :smallfrown: :smalleek:

I still think Veldrina or another allied cleric could get around the no-interference rule by casting a mass buff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?437287-OOTS-1000-The-Discussion-Thread&p=19738030#post19738030) on both of them. But plot-wise I agree that Belkar saving the day is more appropriate.

[Troy]

I have to admit im surprised durkula is able to hold two conversations at the same time while fighting for his unlife though. That cant be a good sign.

:haley: Relax, speaking is a free action.

[Quild]

That would depend on of the whole "souls are taken to their rightful afterlife" deal works.

If the gods just pluck the souls off the world then Xykon most likely would die.

If they just blow everything up and the souls are released naturally then Xykon would wake up in his fortress, had Redcloak not done the swapping of the holy symbols.

That assumes that "world" refers to the material plane of course.
With it should since the gods hid on other planes last time the Snarl wanted to Play.

Right, I imagined that everyone would die since the world must be destroyed, but souls can just be drained away. Funny that a phylatery can be on a different plane than the Lich. And it seems the first world was not destroyed.

I just remembered that the Gods created the Snarl Prison on several planes though. I wonder if those planes would be affected.

[ishnar]

For some reason the "internal church dispute" reminds me of the Reformed/Orthodox Church of Banjo strip from the beginning. :smallbiggrin:

I would actually be disappointed if one of the clerics let their personal feelings get in the way of what their deity wished. I think we've seen again and again in OOTS that clerics, whoever they follow are devoted to their god's wishes at all costs.

See, that is what needs to happen. Elan shows up as the High Priest of Banjo and casts a Nay vote. Just imagine the consternation all around.

[Windscion]

As dramatic as all this is, can't the High Priest of Heimdall end it by committing suicide?
You mean, intentionally frustrate his diety's will? He's the High Priest of Heimdallr, he will not do so.

Also, I just had a thought. Is it at all possible for Veldrina's patron to vote here? She was described as a really minor elven goddess, so she could be a demigod and Vel could well be her high priest. If she's an elven goddess of sneaky underhanded bureaucratic maneuver, that may even have been the plan all along. (Who would suspect Vel of being covert?)

[MDR]

This may have been discussed in the last thread, but what would happen if while this was happening, Veldrina is killed by her bodyguard while nobody is looking? Her vote was already tallied, right?

[skim172]

Why do vampires even have a natural armor bonus? Being a vampire doesn't make you a rhino or a dinosaur. You are faster and sneaker, sure, but not thicker skinned.

Because being a vampire makes you awesome and sexy and kewl and good at everything. Have you not seen Twilight?


As dramatic as all this is, can't the High Priest of Heimdall end it by committing suicide?

He was a yes vote and if the vote does not count when he is in the room, then the vote is 8-7 No, and all the tie-breaking demi-gods in the world can't change it.

The rules mention attacking other priests or changing a vote, but do they mention nullifying your vote?

That's actually a pretty clever idea - and I think it would actually work. If Hel's vote is nullified if her cleric is not present before the end of the tiebreaker, then the same presumably applies to any of the "Yes" clerics.

On the other hand, if they're not willing to cast buffs on Roy against their gods' will, then presumably committing suicide is not exactly on the table.


Though ... based on the wording in strip 1000 - could their vote simply be nullified if they merely left the room? :smallconfused:

[Kantaki]

You mean, intentionally frustrate his diety's will? He's the Hhigh Priest of Heimdallr, he will not do so.

Also, I just had a thought. Is it at all possible for Veldrina's patron to vote here? She was described as a really minor elven goddess, so she could be a demigod and Vel could well be her high priest. If she's an elven goddess of sneaky underhanded bureaucratic maneuver, that may even have been the plan all along.

Vel's Patron is a elven goddess and thus belongs to the Western Pantheon and therefore has no business voting at the Moot of the Northern Gods.

[Peelee]

The priests might not be able to cast buff spells, but if they realize that Roy thinks that the vampire is the same person he was when alive, they could tell him otherwise, and that could help.

Assuming they then know how vampirism works. Which is not guaranteed.

[Berserk Knight]

Hmm, I wonder if one could hit the grey area of the "no helping one side" thing with a Mass Heal that has both Roy and Durkula as intended targets. :smalltongue:

[HuntedWalrus]

I'd like to take this opportunity to say that Veldrina is an absolute hoot and a half. Kudos to her creator, and to Rich for not letting such a great character slip by in a mere cameo. Also, KICK HIS BUTT, ROY!

[pendell]

This may have been discussed in the last thread, but what would happen if while this was happening, Veldrina is killed by her bodyguard while nobody is looking? Her vote was already tallied, right?

Hel's vote has already been tallied as well, but evidently killing the ambassador before the vote is official will work.

... Why, yes, that is a bit of an artificial set up which allows Roy to be a hero, since you ask :smallamused: .

Regardless, Veldrina will not be murdered by her own bodyguard. Rich doesn't want to make a tribute character into a cold-blooded murderer.

...

And what does murder have to do with this anyway? Any of the "Yes" clerics can nullify the vote by simply leaving the room. They will then need to answer to their god for doing so, of course, but either "yes" or "no" clerics of sufficient will and resolve can make the Roy-Durkula fight meaningless at any time.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Carl]

Awesome comic, and as usual Veldrina is being adorable. Whoever came up with her, kudos.

[Themrys]

Well, it's always nice to be encouraged even if the person doing the encouraging instantly undercuts her own argument...

She is a bit like a more socially able Vaarsuvius. Or a more intelligent Elan.

There needs to be a moment when Roy realizes he is not fighting Durkon, because of some clever thing that Durkon did to trick Durkula. I will feel cheated if there isn't.

[Peelee]

Hmm, I wonder if one could hit the grey area of the "no helping one side" thing with a Mass Heal that has both Roy and Durkula as intended targets. :smalltongue:

It's not technicalities that's getting between the clerics. It's the will of the gods.

[hroþila]

This may have been discussed in the last thread, but what would happen if while this was happening, Veldrina is killed by her bodyguard while nobody is looking? Her vote was already tallied, right?
Leaving aside the many reasons why this absolutely terrible thing ain't going to happen - it wouldn't do anything. Veldrina didn't vote, she merely relayed the vote of an entirely separate godsmoot.

[137beth]

Maybe Sunna isn't scared of Hel because she can always destroy vampires with tha sun.
Then again, maybe she'd vote differently after hearing Hel's speech.

[attriel]

And what does murder have to do with this anyway? Any of the "Yes" clerics can nullify the vote by simply leaving the room. They will then need to answer to their god for doing so, of course, but either "yes" or "no" clerics of sufficient will and resolve can make the Roy-Durkula fight meaningless at any time.


I'm guessing leaving the room doesn't DQ (see guy who went looking for demi's). I'm guessing leaving the moot is (a) not possible (wards, stonewalls, etc), and (b) frowned on by their patron deities as subversion and undermining of their will. "not gonna do it, wouldn't be prudent"

OTOH, any of the gods could talk to their priest and have their priest tell their bodyguard "kill me, Hel cannot win" and stand there for a coup-de-grace, but that might be under the "no backsies" clause ...

[Kantaki]

This may have been discussed in the last thread, but what would happen if while this was happening, Veldrina is killed by her bodyguard while nobody is looking? Her vote was already tallied, right?

It has been discussed. It won't happen. For one it would be respectless toward the real Wrecan to whom the character is a tribute.

Another (lesser) reason is that Vel is a Kickstarter cameo and that might mean that she will survive her participation in the story.

Finally, Veldrina didn't vote. She merely served as a relay for the Western Pantheon to announce the result of their vote.

[Stabbey]

See, that is what needs to happen. Elan shows up as the High Priest of Banjo and casts a Nay vote. Just imagine the consternation all around.

I'm surprised at how popular the notion that "Banjo will come in and save the day" is, and I'm not sure why anyone - at all - would think that's how this would get resolved. First and most importantly, that seems like it would be just too silly to work. There is a time for silly banjo jokes, and this doesn't have the feel of one of those times.

Secondly, Banjo is not a deity of any note, if even a deity at all. How many worshippers has Banjo got? Like, one, and he's not even a cleric? Maybe 50 or 60 people even know of Banjo's existence, and most of those are orcs on some island who don't even worship Banjo. I really doubt that 1 worshipper counts enough for demigod status.

Thirdly, Hel seems pretty convinced that she can win the demi-gods vote, which suggests to me that she has a majority bigger than just one vote. One or two extra no votes probably would not be enough to beat the ones supporting Hel.



Assuming they then know how vampirism works. Which is not guaranteed.

It's not a guarantee, but if ANYONE is going to have high ranks in Knowledge: Vampires, a meeting of the highest ranking priests on the planet seems like a reasonable bet.

[dancrilis]

Guessing time.

Assumptions.
Thor knows Durkon was a vampire and sent a storm.
Thor also guessed that the vampire would likely show at the Godsmoot for Hel.
Thor tallied the votes and figured that he better prepare.
Thor has ensured that some High Priests for allied Demigods would appear to counter a likely plan from Hel.
The Demigods vote for the world to remain due to this.
Hel's backup plan is to force the issue at the last gate or have Durkon seize control of it in her name.
Durkon escapes to the gate with the order chasing him.

This validates Durkon's faith in Thor and pushes the story forward without cutting the vampire story short, and creates a situation where Durkon might seek to supplant Redcloak's part of the plan (possible assisted by knowledge from Hel on a similiar ritual).

[Quebbster]

I think that's a nice position for Sunna's priest to take. Presumably he doesn't want the world to be destroyed on a personal level, so he'll stand to the side as long as everyone else does too.

[Mad Humanist]

Okay how do the clerics know Roy is Durkon's bodyguard and not some awful coincidence like one of the other bodyguards happening to know Durkon?


Guessing time.

Assumptions.
Thor knows Durkon was a vampire and sent a storm.
Thor also guessed that the vampire would likely show at the Godsmoot for Hel.
Thor tallied the votes and figured that he better prepare.
Thor has ensured that some High Priests for allied Demigods would appear to counter a likely plan from Hel.
The Demigods vote for the world to remain due to this.
Hel's backup plan is to force the issue at the last gate or have Durkon seize control of it in her name.
Durkon escapes to the gate with the order chasing him.

This validates Durkon's faith in Thor and pushes the story forward without cutting the vampire story short, and creates a situation where Durkon might seek to supplant Redcloak's part of the plan (possible assisted by knowledge from Hel on a similiar ritual).


Shh.... That is the best prediction I've seen. Don't say it too loud or the Giant may change his mind.

[Themrys]

I would say it is implausible that gods would be that daft and not see how their plan profits Hel (at least the Northern Pantheon), so they must have a backup plan. Or maybe they ARE just so stupid. Thor seems to have clerics wiser than he.

[Windscion]

Vel's Patron is a elven goddess and thus belongs to the Western Pantheon and therefore has no business voting at the Moot of the Northern Gods.

You completely missed the point of my suggestion. If she is a demigod, she can vote with the demigods. All the demigods who wish to vote must have someone at a moot -- and possibly at this, the northern moot. (The possibility that demigods have representatives at other moots waiting to vote has not been ruled out, tho it doesn't sound like this is the case.)

[FlawedParadigm]

Yeah, I mean, if we're going to do the "optimal" discussion again, despite it being about a billion miles from anything this comic has truck with, Durkon's best option hands-down is to play Pattycake with Roy. It would quickly make the fight one-sided. Narratively speaking, though, if Rich wants Roy to come out of this fight at least able to pose a threat to anything else (and I expect this fight will be a win for Roy or standstill, because elsewise the story is pretty much over here), then he can't go about saddling him with a bunch of negative levels right now without a guaranteed source of removing them. True, the local clerics would probably remove them AFTER the fight, but I couldn't see Roy getting a bunch of those without Durkula killing and/or vamping him.

Basically, optimal fighting isn't going to happen here because that's not what the story calls for. Like always. I've been waiting ten years to see someone start a successful webcomic based on D&D optimal fighting but it hasn't happened yet. Can't imagine why.

[137beth]

Ah, yes, Veldrina just met Roy. Because she totally does not represent a fan who has been watching and reading about Roy for the last 1002 strips, and totally does not represent someone who spent a bunch of money for the chance to appear in the same panel as Roy!

[hroþila]

You completely missed the point of my suggestion. If she is a demigod, she can vote with the demigods. All the demigods who wish to vote must have someone at a moot -- and possibly at this, the northern moot. (The possibility that demigods have representatives at other moots waiting to vote has not been ruled out, tho it doesn't sound like this is the case.)
Veldrina's goddess can't vote here. The tiebreak is meant to decide the vote of the Northern Pantheon, not of the overall vote of all three pantheons. In other words, Veldrina's goddess might have been able to vote in the West if the vote of the Western Pantheon was a tie, but that's irrelevant now.

[Ghost Nappa]

What if one of the clerics who wants Roy to win deliberately helps the Vampire to force the others to help Roy, and then goes back to help Roy once the other clerics pick sides.

[maldoror]

Roy said "Belkar was right". Wasn't Belkar's whole point is that the vampire was not really Durkon ? He openly said that to Roy multiple times and even tried to prove that. So why does Roy say "belkar was right" and then still believe that is real Durkon ?

#953 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0953.html), #954 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0954.html)

[Windscion]

The tiebreak is meant to decide the vote of the Northern Pantheon, not of the overall vote of all three pantheons. In other words, Veldrina's goddess might have been able to vote in the West if the vote of the Western Pantheon was a tie, but that's irrelevant now.
Maybe, maybe not. It isn't clear to me. But that's a good point: I was thinking of it as a global tie breaker, but yeah it could well be a local tiebreaker as you say.


So why does Roy say "belkar was right" and then still believe that is real Durkon ?
Maybe because he hasn't had a week to sit back and consider all the ramifications.

[Kantaki]

Ah, yes, Veldrina just met Roy. Because she totally does not represent a fan who has been watching and reading about Roy for the last 1002 strips, and totally does not represent someone who spent a bunch of money for the chance to appear in the same panel as Roy!


:smallconfused: Sure, someone, who most likely is a fan of the Order of the Stick, paid to let Vel have a cameo in the comic. Then the Giant choose to give her a bigger role in the story.

That doesn't change the fact that Veldrina the character only met Roy a few days ago.

[Syncrogti]

Maybe because he hasn't had a week to sit back and consider all the ramifications.

Man, still no Belkar. Will anyone intervene if he joins and helps Roy? I suspect not because the whole internal religious dispute thing.

[Peelee]

It's not a guarantee, but if ANYONE is going to have high ranks in Knowledge: Vampires, a meeting of the highest ranking priests on the planet seems like a reasonable bet.

It does indeed. I'm still betting against, though.

Also, thank you for all the other points you made that i snipped. Great rebuttal to several issues i wanted to reply to myself.

[Keltest]

You tell em Veldrina!

[Quebbster]

What if one of the clerics who wants Roy to win deliberately helps the Vampire to force the others to help Roy, and then goes back to help Roy once the other clerics pick sides.

We just had a strip explaining why the priests won't interfere in the fight. Accept it and move on. It's all down to Roy now. And possibly Belkar.

[ishnar]

I'm surprised at how popular the notion that "Banjo will come in and save the day" is, a

Popular? I just think it would be funny.

My real prediction is that all of this will be rendered
.
.
.
moot.


It really shouldn't matter what the Western Pantheon votes, they don't have exclusive control of the material plane. Then the other Pantheons will have to make their votes. The Eastern, the Northern, the Southern, the forgotten, and puppets.

Roy will find out that this whole fight is unnecessary.

[ishnar]

Roy said "Belkar was right". Wasn't Belkar's whole point is that the vampire was not really Durkon ? He openly said that to Roy multiple times and even tried to prove that. So why does Roy say "belkar was right" and then still believe that is real Durkon ?

#953 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0953.html), #954 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0954.html)

There is a difference between what people believe in their heads and what they believe in their hearts.

[The Troubadour]

You know, I thought Veldrina would grow old quickly, but on the contrary, she's just been getting funnier.

[Quild]

Roy said "Belkar was right". Wasn't Belkar's whole point is that the vampire was not really Durkon ? He openly said that to Roy multiple times and even tried to prove that. So why does Roy say "belkar was right" and then still believe that is real Durkon ?

#953 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0953.html), #954 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0954.html)

Well, Belkar was right that Evil Durkon is not Durkon. They differ more than Roy thought. Now, to imagine that it's someone driven by another spirit...

Roy should still be even more willing to destroy that vampire so he can get his friend back.

[Keltest]

There is a difference between what people believe in their heads and what they believe in their hearts.

While this is true, I don't believe that Roy thinks this is just Evil Durkon. If nothing else, the speech patterns would indicate something else is influencing him. He may not be aware of the level of usurpation, but Evil Durkon would still have his accent, if nothing else.

[Shekinah]

Hm.

If the cleric cast Bless on Durkula, would it help him or hurt him? I want to find a loophole in "buffing" the vampire.

[klarg1]

Guessing time.

Assumptions.
Thor knows Durkon was a vampire and sent a storm.
Thor also guessed that the vampire would likely show at the Godsmoot for Hel.
Thor tallied the votes and figured that he better prepare.
Thor has ensured that some High Priests for allied Demigods would appear to counter a likely plan from Hel.
The Demigods vote for the world to remain due to this.
Hel's backup plan is to force the issue at the last gate or have Durkon seize control of it in her name.
Durkon escapes to the gate with the order chasing him.

This validates Durkon's faith in Thor and pushes the story forward without cutting the vampire story short, and creates a situation where Durkon might seek to supplant Redcloak's part of the plan (possible assisted by knowledge from Hel on a similiar ritual).

That's a cool idea, but it seems awfully thought through and planned for the Thor we have been shown up until now.

I think your end result (Durkon running off after Kragor's gate) is possible, but maybe not in response to some carefully-laid plot by Thor.

[Lkctgo]

Just a thought. Could a cleric just start spouting blasphemous things about his/her god and be relieved of the high priest status. No rep = no vote. Afterwards, the cleric could just atone for his blasphemy.

[AmbientLion]

Something that just occurred to me (I'm sure I'm not the first) is that vampirism as the Giant portrays it is not just an external form of parasitism, but an internal one as well. The spirit of the HPoH is literally using and feeding off the memories of Durkon, just as he feeds off the blood of other victims. This seems like a unique take on what it is to be a vampire ... and I think it's pretty cool.

Also, Roy is totally going to kick HPoH's butt here, methinks. :smallcool:

[Syncrogti]

What is the spell Durkula casts on Roy in panel #6? Harm?

[Baelzar]

Arent these guys like, the high priests of their religions? Do you really expect the "pope" of each group to go, "You know what? The god I have dedicated my entire life to serving and have done so faithfully for years/decades is probably wrong now. Im going to violate all the rules of this holy meeting, and ignore my gods choice and do what i want instead."?If the god didn't want it, the buffs wouldn't work. That ain't rules lawyering, that's pure Cleric.

[Seward]

He still has the slam attack, doesn't he? Inflict enough negative levels on Roy and he is no longer a threat.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

The problem with the slam attack is you have to hit Roy's AC, which is high, with a weapon that has not even a masterwork enhancement bonus. At level 15, you're supposed to be hitting a target like Roy with your +5 hammer, not your +0 fists if you are Durkon. So it'll miss.

By contrast your inflict spells just require touching the other guy, and Roy's touch AC is easily in the range of what Durkula can reliably hit. The problem is that even if Roy fails a will save against that, Durkula's going against Roy's best attribute - his hit point total. He has to chew through something that repeated dinosaur attacks, getting run through with his own sword etc failed to accomplish. The only time we've ever seen Roy defeated by hitpoint loss it took a meteor swarm (level 9 spell from epic spellcaster) followed up by a 20d6 fall. It'll take a LOT of inflict spells to stop Roy...but Durkula's AC seems high enough that Roy can't power attack much, so Durkula's mere 100-110 hitpoints will hold out longer than expected, especially with fast healing chipping away at it.

Rich seems to have found a formula for an extended fight - Durkula must not have bothered to prep much in the way of melee stoppers, assuming his dominate would do the heavy lifting - the fact that he's using a hold person in round 2 and an inflict in round 3 strongly indicates he doesn't have higher level equivalents (Destruction, Plane Shift & similar) prepped today.

[Tass]

People are saying that the priest of Heimdal (or any of the other yes-voting gods like Sunna) wouldn't go against his gods will, that is true. But it is implied that Heimdal would change his vote now that Hel has revealed her plan, only it is not allowed. If Heimdal can communicate the fact that he has changed his mind to his cleric, then said cleric can commit suicide to nullify the vote or buff Roy, without going against his gods will. The same goes for other yes-voters, but it is unclear whether they can communicate directly to their clerics at this point, Heimdal at least can, given he has a huge glowing proxy, that the mortals can hear talk.

[2.5 cats]

Here's hoping Roy uses an attack or two to sunder that staff!

[rman]

So we are waiting for Roy to get a crit and the swords special ability to come into play for damage against undead. That is likely to get the HPoH's attention, especially if Roy begins to demonstrate the spell interrupt skill so it becomes clear it will be a long fight.

Additionally, what would you as a DM rule for a crit roll for an interrupt against a clerics spell that requires a holy symbol.

[paddyfool]

Veldrina's demi-deity could most likely only vote by switching pantheons. Although with the fate of the world at stake, such dramatic steps might be worth considering.

But I'm thinking Roy's going to win this fight before such a vote takes place. (Opens popcorn).

[Tiri]

Just a thought. Could a cleric just start spouting blasphemous things about his/her god and be relieved of the high priest status. No rep = no vote. Afterwards, the cleric could just atone for his blasphemy.

Probably not without being demoted to the lowest level of church hierarchy after atoning. Shouting blasphemies is the kind of thing that might make the other members of the church have a bad opinion of him, and a high priest can't keep his position without a certain amount of approval. Whoever his god is might not be too happy, either.

[Mad Humanist]

but it is unclear whether they can communicate directly to their clerics at this point, Heimdal at least can, given he has a huge glowing proxy, that the mortals can hear talk.

He has effectively done that already. Maybe the plot will resolve around that.

[Keltest]

Lets be honest here folks. The clerics are not going to come in and save the day. That would completely undermine Roy's contributions to the fight, not to mention the overall point of his story arc that a fighter can be just as powerful as a spellcaster. At best, the clerics will create a situation where the vampire has to sit there and either win or die, instead of running away.

[paddyfool]

It's not really been clear what Roy's anti-caster feats might do. What if he has some kind of homebrew spellbreaker feat that dispells spells cast on other people? If Durkula lost his protection from sunlight that could really put a crimp in his stride...

[Berserk Knight]

How about...casting "Silence" on the center of the room?

[Cirin]

It's not technicalities that's getting between the clerics. It's the will of the gods.

That sounds like a technicality to me.

Especially with at least one god, Heimdall, almost certainly wishing he could change his vote but can't due to technicalities.

This entire plan on Hel's part was contingent on gaming the technicalities of the Godsmoot. Not being able to change your vote, ties going to a tiebreaker of demigods, having a high-enough level divine spellcaster to count as a High Priest, being able to show up at the end and add a vote instead of declaring up front that Hel was represented (you know that knowing she was present would likely have changed the dynamics of that moot).

This is all technicalities.

[Tiri]

It's not really been clear what Roy's anti-caster feats might do. What if he has some kind of homebrew spellbreaker feat that dispells spells cast on other people? If Durkula lost his protection from sunlight that could really put a crimp in his stride...

So far Roy has only been shown being able to disrupt spellcasting, not dispel ongoing effects, and it would be really anticlimactic if he were to win the fight by pulling a new ability out of nowhere.

[Ghost Nappa]

We just had a strip explaining why the priests won't interfere in the fight. Accept it and move on. It's all down to Roy now. And possibly Belkar.

And the primary reason for not interfering seems to be that the entire thing is a multi-person mexican stand-off. No one wants to go first out of fear of leaving themselves vulnerable to whoever moves after them. It also gives a reason for the High Priestess of Odin, Thor, and Loki to get themselves involved personally with attempting to maintain their status quo.

There are a lot of different actors in this scene and many different ways it could unfold as an early act in this book, but Roy has to win the fight and considering how the fight seems to be slightly against him at the moment there are any number of twists or interventions that help or hurt Roy's chances of victory, ranging from an injured Belkar returning and telling the remaining members that Durkula already attacked the neutral party responsible for organizing the Godsmoot, to Veldrina or Wrecan running to get the remainder of the Order, to the clergy gathered getting themselves involved for whatever reason.

There's also no guarantee that one intervention won't lead into another, kind of like how WW1 started as a single declaration of war between two countries until secret alliances pulled in countries into the conflict and turned the entire thing into a large-scale team battle that overshadowed the original points of contention.

[Prblanco]

Any action by the other clerics to change the outcome could count as a violation of the "no backsies" rule. More about the "spirit of the rule" than the written/spoken rule itself.

After all, I don't think anything nice could come if the gods started accusing each other of cheating.

[Brightblade1331]

Why do vampires even have a natural armor bonus? Being a vampire doesn't make you a rhino or a dinosaur. You are faster and sneaker, sure, but not thicker skinned.

As someone previously mentioned, part of this is the fickle nature of all that is AC being dumped into one stat, but I think you can also make a case for natural armor for a vampire. You don't need normal bodily functions to work, so things like cuts, stabs, and bruising aren't nearly as big a deal for you as they are for living creatures. You get a Dex bonus from the template because you're harder to hit in the first place, but you get the Nat AC bonus because it's less likely that even hits that land on you will do damage.

Now, it's fair to argue that's what DR is for, but at the end of the day, the distinction between DR and natural armor is a bit arbitrary anyway, and typically comes down to balance or flavor issues.

[DaFlipp]

So, I'm not a regular reader here, and I apologize if anyone else had this idea already... but I just got a great idea for how this could get resolved in a way that cashes in on a very specific path of character development. I don't particularly think it WILL happen, but it'd be pretty cool if it did.

Belkar arrives, still badly injured and beaten from Durkon's earlier assault. He wants to jump into the battle, but isn't sure he could make a difference in his current condition, and none of the clerics will help him.

Someone explains the current cleric standoff and world-ending to him, and his Inner Hojo grins with glee. "This is exactly what I've been preparing you for!"

Belkar then announces to the general public:

"As you can see, I'm currently NOT involved in a fight against the jerk trying to murder reality, but I am one of his official bodyguards. Given that I am not currently in combat - and, therefore, any spells cast on me would not technically be considered helping one side or the other - I don't suppose any of you fine upstanding clerics would feel like casting a spell or two on me, out of the goodness of your own hearts?"

After a moment of consideration, EVERY CLERIC PRESENT (and a few non-cleric caster bodyguards) cast pretty much every buff they can think of on Belkar (and his cat), and the tides are officially ready to turn, thanks to the Hojo-taught power of working with and/or exploiting an "arbitrary moral framework" instead of just ignoring it outright.

I'm not saying Durkula won't have other resources to bring into play to make it a more even fight (possibly even enough to result in Belkar's prophecied death), but watching a Raging Belkar fully empowered by every buff in the book (including Owl's Wisdom, which means he might even be able to put his OWN spellcasting to work!), would be something to see.

[Shining Wrath]

Veldrina FTW. It reminds me of Elan encouraging Haley to pick the lock back in Azure City, only quite a bit less touching.

HPoH's Hold Person didn't even make Roy blink. But Roy isn't using his feat; he's not disrupting spells at all. And if HPoH is using direct damage spells, he's not very optimal nor optimized for this battle.

Durkon seems rather dismayed by the whole experience; I suppose it would be odd to be rooting for your own body to be chopped to pieces.

[Smolder]

Veldrina cracked me up. Her last line was totally in keeping with an elf that never had a thought she didn't immediately vocalize. Which is amazing, when you think about how many characters there are in this scene and how each and every one of them is acting totally in character with what little we know about them. It really makes it feel like the OOTS universe is huge and full of fully formed characters with opinions and goals. Ok, Giant, we know you're a talented story-teller. Now you're just show-boating.

[Insane Trystane]

Alright, now that we've got the extra-clerical affairs out of the way, my two copper is on Roy. If he wins here, he's going to have the confidence boost he needs to face Xykon. And from what I've seen of the characters' optimization, it's entirely doable.

The most interesting thing to me is that Durkon McTrapped thinks that Roy is fighting HIM, and I have to agree. Roy's feeling personally betrayed by the man who once was his best friend, and doesn't know there's a new sherrif in town (or "in brain," maybe.) Of course Roy's retaliating. Plus, maybe he thinks that if he gets Durkon rezzed, there's a chance he'll be his old self again. What would *you* do to snap your best friend out of making a really terrible decision, if you lived in the OotS-iverse?

[Shoelessgdowar]

So, I'm not a regular reader here, and I apologize if anyone else had this idea already... but I just got a great idea for how this could get resolved in a way that cashes in on a very specific path of character development. I don't particularly think it WILL happen, but it'd be pretty cool if it did.

Belkar arrives, still badly injured and beaten from Durkon's earlier assault. He wants to jump into the battle, but isn't sure he could make a difference in his current condition, and none of the clerics will help him.

Someone explains the current cleric standoff and world-ending to him, and his Inner Hojo grins with glee. "This is exactly what I've been preparing you for!"

Belkar then announces to the general public:

"As you can see, I'm currently NOT involved in a fight against the jerk trying to murder reality, but I am one of his official bodyguards. Given that I am not currently in combat - and, therefore, any spells cast on me would not technically be considered helping one side or the other - I don't suppose any of you fine upstanding clerics would feel like casting a spell or two on me, out of the goodness of your own hearts?"

After a moment of consideration, EVERY CLERIC PRESENT (and a few non-cleric caster bodyguards) cast pretty much every buff they can think of on Belkar (and his cat), and the tides are officially ready to turn, thanks to the Hojo-taught power of working with and/or exploiting an "arbitrary moral framework" instead of just ignoring it outright.

I'm not saying Durkula won't have other resources to bring into play to make it a more even fight (possibly even enough to result in Belkar's prophecied death), but watching a Raging Belkar fully empowered by every buff in the book (including Owl's Wisdom, which means he might even be able to put his OWN spellcasting to work!), would be something to see.

I sort of like your idea... it does have a sort of poetic beauty to it. Even better if it includes a call back to roleplaying experience leveling him, and Belkar, empowered with enhanced wisdom, adds a Vampire Slayer Prestige Class as his new level.


I'm surprised at how popular the notion that "Banjo will come in and save the day" is, and I'm not sure why anyone - at all - would think that's how this would get resolved. First and most importantly, that seems like it would be just too silly to work. There is a time for silly banjo jokes, and this doesn't have the feel of one of those times.

Secondly, Banjo is not a deity of any note, if even a deity at all. How many worshippers has Banjo got? Like, one, and he's not even a cleric? Maybe 50 or 60 people even know of Banjo's existence, and most of those are orcs on some island who don't even worship Banjo. I really doubt that 1 worshipper counts enough for demigod status.

Thirdly, Hel seems pretty convinced that she can win the demi-gods vote, which suggests to me that she has a majority bigger than just one vote. One or two extra no votes probably would not be enough to beat the ones supporting Hel.




It's not a guarantee, but if ANYONE is going to have high ranks in Knowledge: Vampires, a meeting of the highest ranking priests on the planet seems like a reasonable bet.

1) Banjo, by your own calculations, has more worshipers then Hel. If 0 worshipers is enough for full deitihood, more than 0 should be enough for Demi Status

2) Banjo is no more a Joke than Thor, Odin, Hel, Loki, Tianet, Monkey, or any other deity depicted is. Banjo is a satire on the absurdity of various less mainstream religiins chosen higher beings and beliefs. In addition, Banjo represents the deity that Rich created, a deity who has had a story arc of its own, and in fact, in many ways hus arc mirrors the Dark Ones, seeking acceptance as a deity, rejected by most, finding goblinoid followers, having their truist follower hunting the gates... Banjo is effective 'the Light One'.

3) This is not just Roy's story, it is Elan's, Haley's, V's, and even Durkon's and Belkar's. As we are lead to believe, Elan will get a happy ending, and since Banjo's being treated as a full deity is a major goal in Elan's life, for his ending to be happy, that has to happen. The godsmoot represents the perfect moment for that to occur, since we already know Thor and Odin are aware of and were willinv to accept Banjo, and since Elan follows the rule of Drama, a last minute save would seem like the most dramatic way for Banjo to be recognized and ascend to full member of the Northern Pantheon.
4) Hel and Durkula think their plan is foolproof... whi better than a Fool and a deity of Foolishness to foil the foolproof plan?

[MDR]

Slight derailment...I just noticed the sun cleric guy has two half circles cut out of his buzzcut to represent ears. Heh. Something I just noticed and amuses me. Back to the debates currently in progress.

[Insane Trystane]

Something that just occurred to me (I'm sure I'm not the first) is that vampirism as the Giant portrays it is not just an external form of parasitism, but an internal one as well. The spirit of the HPoH is literally using and feeding off the memories of Durkon, just as he feeds off the blood of other victims. This seems like a unique take on what it is to be a vampire ... and I think it's pretty cool.

Also, Roy is totally going to kick HPoH's butt here, methinks. :smallcool:

That is a brilliant observation! Kudos :D

[bguy]

Rich seems to have found a formula for an extended fight - Durkula must not have bothered to prep much in the way of melee stoppers, assuming his dominate would do the heavy lifting - the fact that he's using a hold person in round 2 and an inflict in round 3 strongly indicates he doesn't have higher level equivalents (Destruction, Plane Shift & similar) prepped today.

Why do you think Durkula's last spell was an Inflict spell? Inflict spells require a touch attack and Durkula never touched Roy. It seems more likely that Durkula's last spell was Destruction and Roy just made his saving throw.

[Kantaki]

Why do you think Durkula's last spell was an Inflict spell? Inflict spells require a touch attack and Durkula never touched Roy. It seems more likely that Durkula's last spell was Destruction and Roy just made his saving throw.

I can only speak for myself, but I assumed so because of the wounds that appear on Roy when the spell hits.

[Shining Wrath]

AC abstraction is just a mess like that.


No he can't. He's not a monster manual vampire with spellcaster abilities glued on, he's a dwarf cleric with the vampire template. Without spell enhancements his melee potential remains strictly inferior to a fighter.

Vampires per much fluff are just hard to hurt; a lot of vital organs aren't very vital. You can run a vampire through the liver he no longer uses and it's merely an annoyance. So that translates into higher AC; it's hard to hit a spot that matters.


You mean, intentionally frustrate his diety's will? He's the High Priest of Heimdallr, he will not do so.

Also, I just had a thought. Is it at all possible for Veldrina's patron to vote here? She was described as a really minor elven goddess, so she could be a demigod and Vel could well be her high priest. If she's an elven goddess of sneaky underhanded bureaucratic maneuver, that may even have been the plan all along. (Who would suspect Vel of being covert?)

That would be epic - but I think the "you must be a member of the club to vote in club meetings" rule is going to hold, and Veldrina's deity is in a different club. Same goes for Banjo; we've never seen him accepted into this club, nor Giggles.

My guess for how this is going to play out.
HPoH will be winning. HPoH will stop to gloat, because it's required by the rules of Evil Bad Guys (just ask Elan). Someone or something will tip Roy off that it's not really Durkon, that Durkon's in there trapped. And Roy's eyes, and his sword, will start to glow, and a can of whoop of very considerable dimension will be opened.

[Burner28]

"I believe in you, Roy! Even though I just met you and that belief is therefor entirely unsubstantiated!"

Best line of this strip.

[Cirin]

Any action by the other clerics to change the outcome could count as a violation of the "no backsies" rule. More about the "spirit of the rule" than the written/spoken rule itself.

After all, I don't think anything nice could come if the gods started accusing each other of cheating.

Roy's entire attack here is based on the wording of the rule, not the spirit of it. He's trying to create a "no backsies" with his strike on Durkon.

From the sounds of the argument the gods are having now, they are about *this* close to accusing Hel of trying to cheat with setting the whole thing up anyway.

[pendell]

Why isn't Roy using his anti-spellcaster feat while in melee combat against a cleric? By my count he's eaten two spells (cause critical wounds , hold person), and all he's done is continued full power attack to beat down Durkon.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Cirin]

1) Banjo, by your own calculations, has more worshipers then Hel. If 0 worshipers is enough for full deitihood, more than 0 should be enough for Demi Status

The gods existed before the world, they didn't need worshippers to be gods.

Apparently they can use souls to become more powerful as deities, but there is nothing in the OOtS-verse saying that gods stop being gods due to lack of worshippers (this isn't Planescape) or need worshippers to be a deity.

Banjo is a joke character, a joke about how childlike and silly Elan is, he's not going to change the outcome of the Godsmoot any more than Popcorn, Soda and Milk Dudes from #301 will, even though they said they are "tiny refreshing GODS".

[Kurald Galain]

That sounds like a technicality to me.

Well, if it's technicalities you want...

...then the priestess of Freya should cast a single low-level spell on Durkon, thereby forcing the priest of Sunna to unload all his buff spells on Roy. Booyah! :smallamused:

[RblDiver]

So, they've decided that this is an internal church dispute eh?

So, when the High Cleric of Thor realizes that Durkon is indeed a Cleric of Thor, does that give her full permission to join the fray?

[Person_Man]

Guessing time.

Assumptions.
Thor knows Durkon was a vampire and sent a storm.
Thor also guessed that the vampire would likely show at the Godsmoot for Hel.
Thor tallied the votes and figured that he better prepare.
Thor has ensured that some High Priests for allied Demigods would appear to counter a likely plan from Hel.
The Demigods vote for the world to remain due to this.
Hel's backup plan is to force the issue at the last gate or have Durkon seize control of it in her name.
Durkon escapes to the gate with the order chasing him.

This validates Durkon's faith in Thor and pushes the story forward without cutting the vampire story short, and creates a situation where Durkon might seek to supplant Redcloak's part of the plan (possible assisted by knowledge from Hel on a similiar ritual).

I think that's a fairly reasonable guess. But I, for one, desperately hope that Roy kills Durkula in a dramatic fashion, and then one of the high priests (presumably Thor or Odin) casts True Resurrection on Durkon, and then the OotS gears up for the final quest to save the world from the dreaded Redcloak/Xykon.

I'm sick of having all of my favorite protagonists constantly lose or unknowing suffer half victories, and I hate having Durkon as an enslaved bad guy. I want the good guys to just win, unambiguously, via the decisions and actions of one of the main characters.

Think about what a huge twist it would be to not have another twist!

(Though this is probably just a personal problem I have, since I hate the current trend of long running stories to never truly resolve anything. Lost, Dresden Files, Game of Thrones, endlessly rebooted comics, etc. I love epics, but after a decade or so you sorta just want the plot to move forward and come to some sort of satisfying conclusion).

[Mad Humanist]

Banjo is a joke character, a joke about how childlike and silly Elan is, he's not going to change the outcome of the Godsmoot any more than Popcorn, Soda and Milk Dudes from #301 will, even though they said they are "tiny refreshing GODS".

I now think #301 may been foreshadowing the demi god vote. Maybe Odin can raise potential deities to godhead at short notice. He'd have to find high priests from very nearby but we do not know what the actual requirement for a high priest is. So the world may yet be saved by Banjo, Popcorn, Soda and Milk Dudes.

[noce]

I don't understand why people keep saying Roy is going well.

He hits like once every two rounds.
Since he's quite clever I think he is not using Power Attack.
His wields a +5 greatsword, so it's 2d6 + 5.
He has weapon specialization and probably greater weapon specialization, for another +4 damage.
He has more than 24 STR, so I'll guess 30 here for another +15 damage.

Total he's doing 2d6 + 24 damage, average 31 damage per swing.
His sword is starmetal, so he doesn't bypass silver DR, hence damage is reduced to 21 per swing.

Vampires have fast healing 5, so Durkon's hp decrease at a rate of 11 every two rounds, more or less.

That means that Durkon will be brought to 0 hp in about 10 swings, or 20 rounds. At that point it's gaseous form time.



Long story short: a fighter has no chance to survive a 20 rounds fight against a vampire cleric, period.
This is assuming that Durkon doesn't go gaseous form beforehand, at that point he'll be invulnerable and still count as "in the goodsmoot".

[Shoelessgdowar]

Vampires per much fluff are just hard to hurt; a lot of vital organs aren't very vital. You can run a vampire through the liver he no longer uses and it's merely an annoyance. So that translates into higher AC; it's hard to hit a spot that matters.



That would be epic - but I think the "you must be a member of the club to vote in club meetings" rule is going to hold, and Veldrina's deity is in a different club. Same goes for Banjo; we've never seen him accepted into this club, nor Giggles.

My guess for how this is going to play out.
HPoH will be winning. HPoH will stop to gloat, because it's required by the rules of Evil Bad Guys (just ask Elan). Someone or something will tip Roy off that it's not really Durkon, that Durkon's in there trapped. And Roy's eyes, and his sword, will start to glow, and a can of whoop of very considerable dimension will be opened.

We also didn't see Elan contact his mentor until flashbacks. Seeing Banjo accepted fully sooner would ruin the rule of Drama and spoil the surprise.

I will point out that in Tinkertown, Roy and Durkon had a side quest, Haley and Bandana had a run in with adventure, Belkar was shown getting geared up, even V and Blackwiing had their own short story. Only Elan had his story left untold. Haley shopped and gave him a wand, then he is KOed by Crystal, missing for 9 strips, only to return healthy and pancake eating at brunch... Elan's Tinkertown adventure and/or unconscious dreamventure was left hidden... like his Freinemyventure with Thog and his secret plan to confront Tarquin in the desert, Elan and Banjo's Tinkertown time has yet to be shown.

[ShurikVch]

I missed it: when Roy got that scratch on his face?

[factotum]

moot.


It really shouldn't matter what the Western Pantheon votes, they don't have exclusive control of the material plane. Then the other Pantheons will have to make their votes. The Eastern, the Northern, the Southern, the forgotten, and puppets.

Roy will find out that this whole fight is unnecessary.


Er, how did you miss the fact that the Western and Southern pantheons already voted? It happened in strip #999. The Eastern pantheon doesn't exist anymore. As for forgotten and puppets...yeah, those are really going to have the same voting weight as a full pantheon of gods that actually exist...

[Seward]

Why isn't Roy using his anti-spellcaster feat while in melee combat against a cleric? By my count he's eaten two spells (cause critical wounds , hold person), and all he's done is continued full power attack to beat down Durkon.

Brian P.

My guess is Durkula is 5' stepping back before each casting. It's still possible with readied actions and touch spells. Perhaps he's got to corner Durkula to get it to work. Note that in the dream sequence Xykon had his back to a forcecage, so couldn't just 5' step back.

[Kantaki]

I missed it: when Roy got that scratch on his face?

In the panel it first appears. Durkon hit Roy with a inflict wounds spell or something similar.

[Seward]

I don't understand why people keep saying Roy is going well.
...
Long story short: a fighter has no chance to survive a 20 rounds fight against a vampire cleric, period.
This is assuming that Durkon doesn't go gaseous form beforehand, at that point he'll be invulnerable and still count as "in the goodsmoot".

A decent analysis except it is entirely possible the reason Roy is missing so often is that he IS power attacking, which could cut your estimate of the rounds down by a lot. Also it's entirely likely that if we get the green glow thingie he'll among other things ignore vampire DR and/or get a big wad of extra damage.

Gaseous form does NOT make you invulnerable in D&D. Quite the opposite. It'd take away the shield bonus, armor bonus and natural armor bonus that are the only reason Durkula is still standing (Roy's missed a number of times). All it gives you is the ability to ignore grapples, seep under doors, fly very slowly and have DR 10/magic, which a +5 starmetal sword absolutely penetrates.

Also Roy has hit every round. He gets 3 swings a round. He's swung 6 times (disregarding the first trip attack done in the first round) and has hit 2 times, once each in the second two rounds. This means he's doing a minimum of 16 points each round (with no power attack) and the fight is over in about 7 rounds. So far Durkula has responded with two wasted actions (made the save) and one inflict spell of some kind, or possibly destruction (a choice that makes more sense, as it has a range and thus is more easily managed with a 5' step back and no risk of the mage slayer feat). Destruction only does 10d6 on a save, and it is a fort save, so that matches what we see pretty well - it hurts, but Roy can eat more of those than Durkula has level 7 spell slots. They've taken roughly equal damage (est 32 durkula vs 35 Roy) but Roy has a lot more hp than Durukula even taking into account fast healing, so D will have to step up his game if he wants to win in the next 4-5 rounds. (and again, a lot less if Roy's been power attacking and is either doing more damage than estimated or can dial back and hit 2x a round, leaving aside extra attacks from his mage slayer feat if he corners Durkon or D tries a touch spell or alternately leaving aside extra damage from glowing green effect when it happens)

[Havelocke]

"Hey I just met you, and this is crazy, here is my belief in you...NOW GO KICK THAT VAMPIRE'S BUTT!" - Vel

[Kalirren]

LOL. Veldrina has no Bard levels.

[Stabbey]

1) Banjo, by your own calculations, has more worshipers then Hel. If 0 worshipers is enough for full deitihood, more than 0 should be enough for Demi Status

Was Hel suddenly wished into existence in the past two years? The answer is no. As a pre-existing deity, there are different rules for her. If one person's belief was really enough to elevate someone to demigodhood, there'd probably be thousands of the darn things hanging around.




2) Banjo is no more a Joke than Thor, Odin, Hel, Loki, Tianet, Monkey, or any other deity depicted is.

Don't be deliberately obtuse. You know perfectly well what I mean.



3) This is not just Roy's story, it is Elan's, Haley's, V's, and even Durkon's and Belkar's. As we are lead to believe, Elan will get a happy ending, and since Banjo's being treated as a full deity is a major goal in Elan's life, for his ending to be happy, that has to happen.

Source please, for the deification of Banjo being a "MAJOR" (emphasis mine) goal in Elan's life, and source that Banjo becoming a god is REQUIRED for Elan's happy ending. In fact, recently Elan said that there are all kinds of different happy endings waiting out there.



The godsmoot represents the perfect moment for that to occur, since we already know Thor and Odin are aware of and were willinv to accept Banjo, and since Elan follows the rule of Drama, a last minute save would seem like the most dramatic way for Banjo to be recognized and ascend to full member of the Northern Pantheon.

Does this current arc have the kind of lighthearted tone which suggests that a silly puppet god will save the day? Or is it more likely that this will be resolved by Roy/HPoH/Durkon/Belkar than a puppet casting a vote? What seems more likely to be satisfying and dramatic?



4) Hel and Durkula think their plan is foolproof... whi better than a Fool and a deity of Foolishness to foil the foolproof plan?

Hel can probably count, and I really don't think that she would have been so smug if she had only a 1-vote majority among the demi-gods attending.

[bguy]

I can only speak for myself, but I assumed so because of the wounds that appear on Roy when the spell hits.

A Destruction spell would inflict wounds on Roy (10d6) if Roy made his saving throw.

[Shining Wrath]

Why isn't Roy using his anti-spellcaster feat while in melee combat against a cleric? By my count he's eaten two spells (cause critical wounds , hold person), and all he's done is continued full power attack to beat down Durkon.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I'm thinking he starts using that feat when he finally realizes that's not really Durkon. And that's also when the sword lights up. And then Roy "lights up" the HPoH, big time.


I don't understand why people keep saying Roy is going well.

He hits like once every two rounds.
Since he's quite clever I think he is not using Power Attack.
His wields a +5 greatsword, so it's 2d6 + 5.
He has weapon specialization and probably greater weapon specialization, for another +4 damage.
He has more than 24 STR, so I'll guess 30 here for another +15 damage.

Total he's doing 2d6 + 24 damage, average 31 damage per swing.
His sword is starmetal, so he doesn't bypass silver DR, hence damage is reduced to 21 per swing.

Vampires have fast healing 5, so Durkon's hp decrease at a rate of 11 every two rounds, more or less.

That means that Durkon will be brought to 0 hp in about 10 swings, or 20 rounds. At that point it's gaseous form time.



Long story short: a fighter has no chance to survive a 20 rounds fight against a vampire cleric, period.
This is assuming that Durkon doesn't go gaseous form beforehand, at that point he'll be invulnerable and still count as "in the goodsmoot".

He's hitting more like once per round; do you not remember a fighter of his level gets 3 attacks per round? Long story short - this fighter, who has been training for 10 years to fight an epic level sorcerer who has become a lich, can and will beat a not-epic level cleric who has become a vampire. Otherwise there has been no point to most of the strip since roughly #100. The Giant is building dramatic tension, and look for HPoH to "win" before he loses, but when Roy starts using his spell disruption feat AND the sword starts proc'ing anti-undead hits, HPoH is a dead man (you should pardon the expression).

EDIT: You cannot speak while in gaseous form. A priest must be able to speak to convey the vote of their deity. The minute HPoH resumes dwarf form (the only one he has capable of speech), Roy resumes smacking him around.

[Basement Cat]

The loyalty between HP's and their gods' is both logical and sensible. Like others have said it makes plenty of sense for a cleric to dislike their god's voting for the world to end, but--similarly to the military--The Word has been given and they're toeing the line and following orders.

Vel's a peach, as always. :smallsmile:

I wonder if one of the clerics will clue Roy in to the fact that Durkon isn't Durkon but an evil spirit possessing Durkon's body.

I predict something brings their fight to a draw--Durkon appears too hard to hurt for the fight to conclude quickly and time is not on Roy's side before the demigods show up and vote to end the world.

Maybe then the Order will spend time chasing Durkula (with a cleric high enough to cast Resurrection--maybe Vel and Wrecan will accompany them with Vel learning Resurrection on the fly or from a high priest before joining the Order's quest) thus keeping the tension up and Durkon in the story while trying to stop Xylon from gaining control of the gate. :smallwink:

[Shoelessgdowar]

I don't understand why people keep saying Royis going well.

He hits like once every tworounds.
Since he's quite clever I think he is not using Power Attack.
His wields a +5 greatsword, so it's 2d6 + 5.
He has weapon specialization and probably greater weapon specialization, for another +4 damage.
He has more than 24 STR, so I'll guess 30 here for another +15 damage.

Total he's doing 2d6 + 24 damage, average 31 damage per swing.
His sword is starmetal, so he doesn't bypass silver DR, hence damage is reduced to 21 per swing.

Vampires have fast healing 5, so Durkon's hp decrease at a rate of 11 every two rounds, more or less.

That means that Durkon will be brought to 0 hp in about 10 swings, or 20 rounds. At that point it's gaseous form time.



Long story short: a fighter has no chance to survive a 20 rounds fight against a vampire cleric, period.
This is assuming that Durkon doesn't go gaseous form beforehand, at that point he'll be invulnerable and still count as "in the goodsmoot".

1) Gaseous form can still be hit 50% of the time by nagical weapons if Durkula takes it willingly.
2) If damage forces him into gaseous form, Durkula is nit sraying around, he has to return to his/Draketooth's coffin.
3) Starmetal is a non-IP violating way to say Adamatine, the metal that bypasdes ALL damage reductions, meaning there is no DR vs it, so put back that 10 points... now
4) Now, if Roy starts willing the full effects making thr sword glow, it will be doing double damage, ignores the Vampire crit immunity, allowing x3 damage on crits...

Care to recaculate an average of 31-93 points of damage a hit?

[Myta]

Any action by the other clerics to change the outcome could count as a violation of the "no backsies" rule. More about the "spirit of the rule" than the written/spoken rule itself.

After all, I don't think anything nice could come if the gods started accusing each other of cheating.

The whole affair is already a huge violation of the spirit of rules. All important events are only happening because of some technical details in the rules, that violate their spirit. Obviously that gods are only bound by the rules as written, not by their spirit.

-no backsies violates the spirit of a fair vote when new super important information comes up, and the matter which is voted about is also super important. the spirit of the vote should be that the result that is passed on is what the majority actually wants, not what their were tricked to say.
-the vote not counting when the priest is murdered violates both the spirit of a fair vote and also the spirit of the no backsies rule
-the bodyguards being allowed to attack their own priest violates the spirit if the whole "dont attack priests" rule

It seems that the gods are bound very tightly by the letter of their rules, the spirit is not important at all.

[Morty]

I don't understand why people keep saying Roy is going well.

He hits like once every two rounds.
Since he's quite clever I think he is not using Power Attack.
His wields a +5 greatsword, so it's 2d6 + 5.
He has weapon specialization and probably greater weapon specialization, for another +4 damage.
He has more than 24 STR, so I'll guess 30 here for another +15 damage.

Total he's doing 2d6 + 24 damage, average 31 damage per swing.
His sword is starmetal, so he doesn't bypass silver DR, hence damage is reduced to 21 per swing.

Vampires have fast healing 5, so Durkon's hp decrease at a rate of 11 every two rounds, more or less.

That means that Durkon will be brought to 0 hp in about 10 swings, or 20 rounds. At that point it's gaseous form time.



Long story short: a fighter has no chance to survive a 20 rounds fight against a vampire cleric, period.
This is assuming that Durkon doesn't go gaseous form beforehand, at that point he'll be invulnerable and still count as "in the goodsmoot".

None of what you said has any relevance to anything. We see that the fight is relatively even now, with Durkon and Roy exchanging attacks. That's what is relevant.

[Fernijen]

Why isn't every dwarf bodyguard piling on Durkula? This might be their last chance to die with honor - what have they got to lose?

[Kantaki]

A Destruction spell would inflict wounds on Roy (10d6) if Roy made his saving throw.

It's possible, I have almost no knowledge about D&D rules. All I know is that Durkon can turn his spells into inflict wounds spells and that usually spells are announced in OotS.

Since I don't know what Durkon can cast the idea that he used his inflict wounds ability seems logical.

But honestly, where is the difference? Durkon cast a spell and hurt Roy with it.

[r2d2go]

The winky face! WHY THE WINKY FACE :smalleek:

Seriously though that just made the suspense ten times worse...


None of what you said has any relevance to anything. We see that the fight is relatively even now, with Durkon and Roy exchanging attacks. That's what is relevant.

I dunno, I think it's relevant. Giantitp might not run off pure 3.5, but it's close enough that we know a high level wizard-dragon is stronger than just a high level wizard, and a relatively powerful fighter wipes the floor with mook-bandits. Heck he referenced vampiric LA (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0873.html) to show how becoming a vampire is a spike in "power" (effective character level), but also reduces future experience gain since things aren't "appropriate challenges". In the same fight, he showed how the cleric vs melee match up can be easily decided by a single failed will save. Yes, the underdog can win because the story needs him to, but it means something is going to have to happen to turn the tide in his favor.

That said... I think the calculations were off, which is why Roy is holding his ground. Roy has basically no optimization, but the one thing he has been building at working towards is fighting an undead spellcaster. His sword is said to glow and gain bonuses vs Undead, and he spent time learning a feat to let him interrupt spellcasting.

[SlashDash]

EDIT: You cannot speak while in gaseous form. A priest must be able to speak to convey the vote of their deity. The minute HPoH resumes dwarf form (the only one he has capable of speech), Roy resumes smacking him around.
You can talk while in gaseous form (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html)

[Qwertystop]

Why isn't every dwarf bodyguard piling on Durkula? This might be their last chance to die with honor - what have they got to lose?

It might not count as honor, since they're breaking the established rules of a very sacred event which they had already agreed to.

[Nightcanon]

You completely missed the point of my suggestion. If she is a demigod, she can vote with the demigods. All the demigods who wish to vote must have someone at a moot -- and possibly at this, the northern moot. (The possibility that demigods have representatives at other moots waiting to vote has not been ruled out, tho it doesn't sound like this is the case.)

Vel's goddess is allied to the Western pantheon, which has already decided in a vote of its major deities that it favours destroying the world. The Southern Gods voted no. It is the Northern Pantheon that is undecided, so the decision of the Northern Pantheon will be determined by the votes of the demigods of the Northern Pantheon.

[Breccia]

Because being a vampire makes you awesome and sexy and kewl and good at everything. Have you not seen Twilight?

NO NO NO. You get that crap right the Hel out of this thread. This thread is about a story that's well written with involved, interesting, flawed characters, and an established, logical universe.

[Shining Wrath]

You can talk while in gaseous form (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html)

Malack could ... but I don't know if HPoH will be able to do so.

SRD on Gaseous Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gaseousForm.htm)


SRD: It can’t attack or cast spells with verbal, somatic, material, or focus components while in gaseous form.


SRD: Gaseous Form (Su)

As a standard action, a vampire can assume gaseous form at will as the spell (caster level 5th), but it can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability.

A bog-standard gaseous form vampire should not be able to speak. Malack had a variety of special abilities, this may be one of them.

[Nightcanon]

It might not count as honor, since they're breaking the established rules of a very sacred event which they had already agreed to.

It's a reasonable idea though: either risk dying with dishonour (might not die, might not be dishonourable if they do) by attacking Durkon at the Godsmoot, or stand by and die with dishonour for certain if Hel has her way..

[Breccia]

Guessing time.

Assumptions.
Thor knows Durkon was a vampire and sent a storm.
Thor also guessed that the vampire would likely show at the Godsmoot for Hel.
Thor tallied the votes and figured that he better prepare.
Thor has ensured that some High Priests for allied Demigods would appear to counter a likely plan from Hel.
The Demigods vote for the world to remain due to this.
Hel's backup plan is to force the issue at the last gate or have Durkon seize control of it in her name.
Durkon escapes to the gate with the order chasing him.

This is very involved, but I don't see it happening. Thor has never shown any inklings of being a "planner". Loki is, and he seems fairly convinced the demigods are voting Hel's way. A storm would block out the sun, which is pretty counterproductive. Thor's not mocking Hel ("go ahead, ask the demigos") which he would totally do just before a victory. And finally, that's pretty damned Deus Ex Machina, which seems contrary to the very concept of this part of the story.

Durkula might flee, but the rest just doesn't seem all that likely.

[Wowlock]

I have a question. Will Dwarf High Priests go to Hel if Gods destroy the world ? If so, it is in their best interest to help Roy even if it means going against their God's vote. I mean by dying and going to become Hel's servants in the new world, they are basicly condemned regardless and their God kinda screwed them over. For Dwarves, Hel's vote is a Lose-Lose situation and I doubt the Gods would be offended if the Dwarves decide not to allow Hel to harvest them and have her become the queen in the new world.

Heck , just throwing Hel to Snarl for a quick appetizer so they earn more time to close the gates sounds more plausible by the minute.

[Keltest]

Malack could ... but I don't know if HPoH will be able to do so.

SRD on Gaseous Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gaseousForm.htm)





A bog-standard gaseous form vampire should not be able to speak. Malack had a variety of special abilities, this may be one of them.

I see nothing in the description that specifically prohibits speech, just the use of verbal components. One could easily interpret that to mean speech is possible, just not as a spell.

However, the point is moot (heh), because the spell does specifically call out spells with verbal components as verboten.

[Spoomeister]

Excellent update.

Is Durkula deliberately fighting a defensive action in order to prolong the fight so that the vote can be counted?

That might make sense. If he fights offensively he is risking being destroyed by Roy , which will fail his existence-long mission. Delaying minimizes the risk to himself while increasing the chance that the demigods will cast their votes.



Yup. Good point. This explains quite a lot, because by all rights Durkula should be able to take Roy down fairly handily. Roy's got high saves but at Durkula's level only a couple of higher-levelled spells need to land (either high level overall or lower spells cast at a higher level). But Durkula can fight on the defensive for quite a long time if e.g. he's saving his Harms, Cause Serious Wounds, Cause Critical Wounds, etc. to heal himself instead of hurt Roy. In fact, in the brief fight so far all we've seen is Domination and Hold Person, further supporting the premise that Durkula doesn't need to kill Roy, just delay or pause him a bit.

And I think someone on the forum noted this before but now it's a lot clearer in the comic - if the other priests aren't interfering solely out of technicalities, then any area-of-effect stuff Durkula might use would give them an opening to respond in kind. All it'd take would be for one priest whose god voted 'no' to get a point or two of damage, and they'd feel free to buff Roy or even join in, which would provoke equal response from the others. It'd be a Snarl-level all-out spellcasting party once that particular door was opened. (A casterf***, if you will.)

So, kudos to Rich for quickly yet somewhat subtly setting out why this fight is a) going for more than a couple rounds at all, b) staying between Roy and Durkula, c) a somewhat even fight.

Now for Durkon to come up with something to distract Durkula or trip him up, long enough to give Roy a chance at some extra hits.

[Grey Watcher]

Apparently he'd Sunna help a vampire than go against his deity. :rimshot:

[littlebum2002]

1) Banjo, by your own calculations, has more worshipers then Hel. If 0 worshipers is enough for full deitihood, more than 0 should be enough for Demi Status

I don't know how deities work in D&D, but in OOTSverse Rich has established that their power is based on believers not worshipers. No one worships Hel, but that doesn't matter because she gets power from her 10 million or so believers. Banjo only has one believer. There's not even a comparison to be made.


Why isn't every dwarf bodyguard piling on Durkula? This might be their last chance to die with honor - what have they got to lose?

They literally explained this exact same thing in the comic: Because then all the other bodyguards will pile on Roy, and then they really will have no chance to die with honor, because Roy would certainly lose.


Malack could ... but I don't know if HPoH will be able to do so.

SRD on Gaseous Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gaseousForm.htm)

A bog-standard gaseous form vampire should not be able to speak. Malack had a variety of special abilities, this may be one of them.

LOL you're quoting the SRD like Rich has to follow it or something. And, more to the point, you're quoting it poorly: nowhere does it say you are not able to speak.

[Glich]

so how long till deus ex Belkar? Technically he should be dead now but we know ... we know...

[ti'esar]

Hmm, this is a lot more evenly matched than a lot of people seemed to have been expecting. Although both Roy and the HPoH seem to be holding things in reserve (narratively if not in-universe), so no bets just yet.

Veldrina is adorable as always.

[Doug Lampert]

1) Gaseous form can still be hit 50% of the time by nagical weapons if Durkula takes it willingly.
2) If damage forces him into gaseous form, Durkula is nit sraying around, he has to return to his/Draketooth's coffin.
3) Starmetal is a non-IP violating way to say Adamatine, the metal that bypasdes ALL damage reductions, meaning there is no DR vs it, so put back that 10 points... now
4) Now, if Roy starts willing the full effects making thr sword glow, it will be doing double damage, ignores the Vampire crit immunity, allowing x3 damage on crits...

Care to recaculate an average of 31-93 points of damage a hit?


Adamantine
This ultrahard metal adds to the quality of a weapon or suit of armor. Weapons fashioned from adamantine have a natural ability to bypass hardness when sundering weapons or attacking objects, ignoring hardness less than 20. Armor made from adamantine grants its wearer damage reduction of 1/- if it’s light armor, 2/- if it’s medium armor, and 3/- if it’s heavy armor. Adamantine is so costly that weapons and armor made from it are always of masterwork quality; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below. Thus, adamantine weapons and ammunition have a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls, and the armor check penalty of adamantine armor is lessened by 1 compared to ordinary armor of its type. Items without metal parts cannot be made from adamantine. An arrow could be made of adamantine, but a quarterstaff could not.

Only weapons, armor, and shields normally made of metal can be fashioned from adamantine. Weapons, armor and shields normally made of steel that are made of adamantine have one-third more hit points than normal. Adamantine has 40 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 20.
Adamant bypasses hardness of up to 20, it bypasses DR/adamantine. That's it. Nothing in the description says it bypasses all DR, in fact adamantine armor specifically GRANTS DR that adamantine does not bypass.


Damage Reduction
A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. A certain kind of weapon can sometimes damage the creature normally, as noted below.

The entry indicates the amount of damage ignored (usually 5 to 15 points) and the type of weapon that negates the ability.

Some monsters are vulnerable to piercing, bludgeoning, or slashing damage.

Some monsters are vulnerable to certain materials, such as alchemical silver, adamantine, or cold iron. Attacks from weapons that are not made of the correct material have their damage reduced, even if the weapon has an enhancement bonus.
Note again, adamantine is simply one item in a list of possible materials that MIGHT bypass DR, if the DR specifies that that material bypasses it.

Vampiric DR is 10/silver and magic. Adamantine is not the correct material.

If starmetal is just adamantine (false) then (a) the green glow is inexplicable, (b) the extra damage against undead is nonsensical, and (c) it doesn't do squat against DR other than lots of damage to allow it to blow through.

Now, in fact starmetal is not adamantine, it's a different material with different properties, and Roy is winning this fight (so far) without needing to blow through DR.

[Kantaki]

I don't know how deities work in D&D, but in OOTSverse Rich has established that their power is based on believers not worshipers. No one worships Hel, but that doesn't matter because she gets power from her 10 million or so believers. Banjo only has one believer. There's not even a comparison to be made.

Banjo has only one believer? And what is with the orcish followers of Giggles, Banjo's brother*? The way I see it they believe in both even if they only follow one of them.

Not that this means Banjo has even a remote chance of showing up.

*Assuming they didn't find something new to pray to.

[Shoelessgdowar]

Was Hel suddenly wished into existence in the past two years? The answer is no. As a pre-existing deity, there are different rules for her. If one person's belief was really enough to elevate someone to demigodhood, there'd probably be thousands of the darn things hanging around.

Don't be deliberately obtuse. You know perfectly well what I mean.

Source please, for the deification of Banjo being a "MAJOR" (emphasis mine) goal in Elan's life, and source that Banjo becoming a god is REQUIRED for Elan's happy ending. In fact, recently Elan said that there are all kinds of different happy endings waiting out there.

Does this current arc have the kind of lighthearted tone which suggests that a silly puppet god will save the day? Or is it more likely that this will be resolved by Roy/HPoH/Durkon/Belkar than a puppet casting a vote? What seems more likely to be satisfying and dramatic?

Hel can probably count, and I really don't think that she would have been so smug if she had only a 1-vote majority among the demi-gods attending.

1) Why do you assume Elan invented Banjo? Banjo could possibly be far older than we know.

2) I am not the one being Obtuse. Rich both showed Thor and Odin wanting Banjo to join them (which, btw, neans Banjo IS a deity or at least demigod), and Banjo keeps reappearing (and expanding his domains of influence). Also, Banjo is already a deity, Elan doesn't seek to make Banjo intonone, he seeks to have Banjo be more globally recognized. Being the deciding Vote t ghost at saved all life on Earth could definitely help with that.

3) Elan tried to convert the entire Order to Banjo, he fought with Freya's bigot priest to get Banjo included in the Northern Pantheon (which, in retrospect could have been major forshadowing, something Rich is Epic at doing), he converted an Island to Banjo then swapped them to Giggles to allow him to spread the faith elsewhere while giving Banjo Nemesis boosts, and we even saw Banjo's ascension in the Dream Life Illusion.

4) While Roy can beat Durkon... he can't beat him fast enough. However, we know Balder follows Thor and Odin's example, we know the High Priest of Balder was sent for the demigods, we know from Vel that the proxy doesn't have to cast the spell for themself... Balder's High Priest gets outside, sees Elan with Banjo, inquires if he is The High Priest if Banjo, Elan of course says yes, HPoB drags Elan inside and presents him, HPoO summons Proxy on Elan, and Banjo again gets to speak through Elan's mouth. We then immediately or several strips later get a flashback of how Banjo was given full status, and how Elan, as secondary healer, took a rank of Priest with some guidance from HPoO or HPoB on being the High Priest to a Northern Deity. This allows for Durkula to flee, the plot foiled, but to continue to be an antagonist and give another sidequest (like Tarquin and liberating Azure City) to complete after the Snarl battle.
So now I flip your question, what is more dramatic, a pointless battle that ends in the politics of why demigids voted with or against Hel... or a surprise twist that Hel's foolproof plan was forseen by Odin and foiled by Odin fooling Hel into losing to her own gambit of a surprise High Priest?

5) If Banjo were a mere demideity, you woukd be correct, but the whole ploy is to have a full deity waiting in the wings to change the balance of the vote.

[Composer99]

Someone upthread suggested starmetal was an in-comic substitute for adamantine because IP.

Adamantine (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm) is part of the open game SRD and doesn't provide any benefit to get around monster damage reduction (nor any additional enhancement bonus to attacks/damage).

So starmetal is a fair bit more special.

Edit: Shadow monk'd.

[Lexible]

I wonder if he'll be savvy enough to notice the total lack of accent.

I kinda thought Roy did just that in panel 8 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html) (or sub-panel of 7, if that's how you count :).

[Windscion]

Startmetal, with its anti-undead properties, may well bypass all undead DR, at least on bog standard undead such as vampires. Or it may not. We cannot be certain because we cannot see the combat logs to know how Roy is rolling.

[littlebum2002]

3) Starmetal is a non-IP violating way to say Adamatine

No, it's not. Adamantine is in the SRD, it's open source

[mroozee]

I wonder if he'll be savvy enough to notice the total lack of accent.

This was my immediate thought as well. Roy may not have been able to hear Evil Durkon in #1000 but E.D.'s heavily accented speech in #994 looks like a major hint that this is how Roy will figure it out. Basically, every accent-cue is there: 1. "Dinnae" for "Don't", 2. "lads", 3. "'til" for "until", 4. "thar" for "they're", 5. "wit" for "with", 6. "meetin'" with the ending "g" dropped, 7. "an'" for "and", 8. "ye" for "you", and 9. "ta" for "to".

Evil Durkon has violated six or seven of these 9 recent examples already (he hasn't said "until" or something in place of "lads"... he also hasn't said "thar" yet, though the same rule would have applied to "yer" for "you're", I suppose). So my prediction: in #1003, Evil Durkon says something like, "...until you guys..." and that will make the foreshadowing complete, at which point Roy puts two and two together.

[Fish]

I don't see why everybody focuses on dissecting the mechanics of the fight. This isn't a tactical simulation, it's a story. It will unfold the way the storyteller decides.

The mechanics of D&D allow for a wide variety of battle strategies by each combatant: whether Roy is truly fighting his hardest and using every tool at his disposal; whether Durkula is fighting defensively to prolong the battle until the vote is official; whether Durkula anticipated this battle, and if so, how he prepared, if at all.

The battle is more likely to turn on narratively important details, not mechanical ones. It's likely not going to end on a lucky die roll or a +1 bonus or Roy's Will save score or number of attacks per round. It will turn on story elements, but there's just no telling how the story elements come into play. Durkon has a narrative stake in the outcome for his character growth; Belkar has a stake because it is the culmination of his ongoing war with Durkula; and Roy has a stake because (among other reasons) Durkon is his best friend. If I had to put money on it, I'd say those three and no others decide the outcome of the battle, rather than some esoteric combat advantage listed in a rule book.

I hold out a minor possibility that Elan, Haley and V enter at the last minute with a wrinkle all their own, but it seems unlikely (to me).

[Gift Jeraff]

Malack could ... but I don't know if HPoH will be able to do so.

SRD on Gaseous Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gaseousForm.htm)





A bog-standard gaseous form vampire should not be able to speak. Malack had a variety of special abilities, this may be one of them.

Both Malack and Durkulon speak through supernatural means.

[Lord]

I don't understand why people keep saying Roy is going well.

He hits like once every two rounds.
Since he's quite clever I think he is not using Power Attack.
His wields a +5 greatsword, so it's 2d6 + 5.
He has weapon specialization and probably greater weapon specialization, for another +4 damage.
He has more than 24 STR, so I'll guess 30 here for another +15 damage.

Total he's doing 2d6 + 24 damage, average 31 damage per swing.
His sword is starmetal, so he doesn't bypass silver DR, hence damage is reduced to 21 per swing.

Vampires have fast healing 5, so Durkon's hp decrease at a rate of 11 every two rounds, more or less.

That means that Durkon will be brought to 0 hp in about 10 swings, or 20 rounds. At that point it's gaseous form time.



Long story short: a fighter has no chance to survive a 20 rounds fight against a vampire cleric, period.
This is assuming that Durkon doesn't go gaseous form beforehand, at that point he'll be invulnerable and still count as "in the goodsmoot".

Yeah but Roy gets multiple swings with his sword per round, as a High Level Fighter. His fight with Xykon lasted only a single round once they got down to business. Roy struck Xykon with a full volley of power attacks, and an attack of opportunity before Xykon said screw it and blasted the whole Dragon from orbit with a meteor swarm. So since Roy gets about four attacks per round, plus an attack of opportunity, the actual data is that he's bludgeoning Durkon's health down by about thirty per round. Not to mention attacks of opportunity which Durkon has to save against being disrupted by. I'd give the last strip about three or so rounds as a time table. And both sides are clearly hurting.

So yeah, I'd say Roy stands a better chance than you give him credit for.

[drazen]

Sure, but wanna bet that suicide is against the doctrine of the God of the Watch?

Well, if not committing suicide means the world is destroyed, and you prohibit it, that's not much of a watch, now, is it?

Someone else had a great loophole, if buffing Roy means the vampire gets all the buffs, then buff the vampire (Heimdall could also do this). Then all the retribution buffs would go to Roy, by the sun-god priest's explanation (unless they only apply to high priests and not bodyguards?).

[bguy]

But honestly, where is the difference? Durkon cast a spell and hurt Roy with it.

Well Seward's argument (back on page 4) was that Durkula probably didn't have any good higher level combat spells prepped if he was having to resort to using an Inflict spell. In that sense there is an important difference between if Durkula actually used a higher level spell like Destruction (7th level) rather than a lower level spell like Inflict Critical Wounds (4th level) because if Durkula did cast Destruction (one of his most powerful spells) that means we cannot assume that he doesn't have other high level combat spells prepped.

Also, the fact that Roy survived one of Durkula's best spells is important because Durkula doesn't have that many 7th level spell slots. Once Durkula's high level spells are gone the fight will favor Roy, so if that particular spell was Destuction then Roy just cleared a big hurdle by surviving it.


Someone else had a great loophole, if buffing Roy means the vampire gets all the buffs, then buff the vampire (Heimdall could also do this). Then all the retribution buffs would go to Roy, by the sun-god priest's explanation (unless they only apply to high priests and not bodyguards?).

The priest of Sunna didn't say he would automatically cast buffs on the opposite of whoever the priestess of Freya casts buffs on. What he said was if she casts a buff on Roy he would cast his buffs on Durkula. He said nothing about what he would do if she cast a buff on Durkula, so he's not under any obligation to start buffing Roy just because another priest casts a buff on Durkula.

[Stabbey]

so how long till deus ex Belkar? Technically he should be dead now but we know ... we know...

I dunno, I can see it going two main ways.

One way is for Belkar to pop back in at some point several strips from now, likely accompanied by one or more members of the order (to explain HOW he was able to get back).

But another way that could be just as valid is that Durkula is driven off some other way, but the order can't find Belkar. Roy, spurred into action by the narrow margin of preventing the immediate ending of the world, orders the use of the teleport sphere to skip to the gate immediately, without Belkar. After all if it would be really dramatic for Belkar to appear now, wouldn't it be more so if he appeared a lot later on?


I don't see why everybody focuses on dissecting the mechanics of the fight. This isn't a tactical simulation, it's a story. It will unfold the way the storyteller decides.

The mechanics of D&D allow for a wide variety of battle strategies by each combatant: whether Roy is truly fighting his hardest and using every tool at his disposal; whether Durkula is fighting defensively to prolong the battle until the vote is official; whether Durkula anticipated this battle, and if so, how he prepared, if at all.

The battle is more likely to turn on narratively important details, not mechanical ones. It's likely not going to end on a lucky die roll or a +1 bonus or Roy's Will save score or number of attacks per round. It will turn on story elements, but there's just no telling how the story elements come into play. Durkon has a narrative stake in the outcome for his character growth; Belkar has a stake because it is the culmination of his ongoing war with Durkula; and Roy has a stake because (among other reasons) Durkon is his best friend. If I had to put money on it, I'd say those three and no others decide the outcome of the battle, rather than some esoteric combat advantage listed in a rule book.

I hold out a minor possibility that Elan, Haley and V enter at the last minute with a wrinkle all their own, but it seems unlikely (to me).

Yeah, this is a great post and I agree with it. It's also why Banjo will have no part in resolving this.

[Gnoman]

The priest of Sunna didn't say he would automatically cast buffs on the opposite of whoever the priestess of Freya casts buffs on. What he said was if she casts a buff on Roy he would cast his buffs on Durkula. He said nothing about what he would do if she cast a buff on Durkula, so he's not under any obligation to start buffing Roy just because another priest casts a buff on Durkula.

Precisely. His god has voted, and Roy succeeding will change the outcome away from his god's vote. In other words, any action by a cleric of another god to help Roy will be a deliberate attempt to undermine his god's will, and as a cleric he MUST prevent that.

[Killer Angel]

Precisely. His god has voted, and Roy succeeding will change the outcome away from his god's vote. In other words, any action by a cleric of another god to help Roy will be a deliberate attempt to undermine his god's will, and as a cleric he MUST prevent that.

Eh, but after his God's vote, the conditions have changed. As a cleric, he should also know that, with the world's destruction, Hel will undermine his God's power.
Were I the cleric, this would be the time for a divination.

[Fish]

Yes, Stabbey, I agree with that too: Banjo will not decide the battle. I could potentially see Banjo affecting the vote (since there seemed a real/humorous possibility, long ago, that Banjo could join the pantheon) but the fight seems to require mortal actors.

[rman]

... It will unfold the way the storyteller decides. ... It will turn on story elements, but there's just no telling how the story elements come into play.....

And the Giant has shown he is a master at showing the story through the fine points of D&D rules. If someone is to win by a lucky break, one side will get a critical success or failure.

So based on how we think the story will go we are speculating on the story element the Giant will use to express that.

[littlebum2002]

Banjo has only one believer? And what is with the orcish followers of Giggles, Banjo's brother*? The way I see it they believe in both even if they only follow one of them.

Not that this means Banjo has even a remote chance of showing up.

*Assuming they didn't find something new to pray to.

Good point. Still, 100 believers =/= 10 million believers. I really doubt you can ascend to anything beyond demigod status with only 100 believers.



2) I am not the one being Obtuse. Rich both showed Thor and Odin wanting Banjo to join them (which, btw, neans Banjo IS a deity or at least demigod)

Or that Thor and Odin are idiots. Oh, wait...



I don't see why everybody focuses on dissecting the mechanics of the fight. This isn't a tactical simulation, it's a story. It will unfold the way the storyteller decides.

The mechanics of D&D allow for a wide variety of battle strategies by each combatant: whether Roy is truly fighting his hardest and using every tool at his disposal; whether Durkula is fighting defensively to prolong the battle until the vote is official; whether Durkula anticipated this battle, and if so, how he prepared, if at all.

The battle is more likely to turn on narratively important details, not mechanical ones. It's likely not going to end on a lucky die roll or a +1 bonus or Roy's Will save score or number of attacks per round. It will turn on story elements, but there's just no telling how the story elements come into play. Durkon has a narrative stake in the outcome for his character growth; Belkar has a stake because it is the culmination of his ongoing war with Durkula; and Roy has a stake because (among other reasons) Durkon is his best friend. If I had to put money on it, I'd say those three and no others decide the outcome of the battle, rather than some esoteric combat advantage listed in a rule book.

I hold out a minor possibility that Elan, Haley and V enter at the last minute with a wrinkle all their own, but it seems unlikely (to me).

Exactly. No one complains about Roy defeating an epic sorcerer lich in 2 rounds in the first dungeon, do they?




Someone else had a great loophole, if buffing Roy means the vampire gets all the buffs, then buff the vampire (Heimdall could also do this). Then all the retribution buffs would go to Roy, by the sun-god priest's explanation (unless they only apply to high priests and not bodyguards?).

What would this accomplish?

[JT]

Regarding buffs / counter-buffs as an option:

there are equal numbers of "aye" and "nay" high clerics available to cast buffs, so if they follow their God's wishes, they should balance.
some clerics might go against their God in order to save the world, but some might also be sticklers for the rules in order to keep balance/harmony in what is internal church business between Hel's HC and his bodyguard. Could well balance.
Vel and the Elf rep are conduits for their pantheons' votes. We, and presumably they, haven't heard anything about their actual God/Goddess'es desire. Vel certainly seems on Roy's side, so at worst, this would be a draw if they decided to assist. On the other hand, it might trigger all the HPoX clerics' buffing and counter buffing.


So where does that leave us? Right where the Giant has said we are. They are going to stay neutral in their actions, and see what happens. No cheap solution to the fight will come from the sidelines.

The fight will be resolved between Roy, Durkon/HPoH, with possible participation from Belkar, Haley, Elan, and/or Vaarsuvius.

Personally, I don't think Roy will be defeated here, since he's died once already. I have doubts that the whole vampire "side-quest" will be resolved at this point, too, so while he may be defeated, I don't see HPoH going away (being made dead instead of undead) and Durkon coming back yet, either.

[Nightcanon]

I don't see why everybody focuses on dissecting the mechanics of the fight. This isn't a tactical simulation, it's a story. It will unfold the way the storyteller decides.

The mechanics of D&D allow for a wide variety of battle strategies by each combatant: whether Roy is truly fighting his hardest and using every tool at his disposal; whether Durkula is fighting defensively to prolong the battle until the vote is official; whether Durkula anticipated this battle, and if so, how he prepared, if at all.

The battle is more likely to turn on narratively important details, not mechanical ones. It's likely not going to end on a lucky die roll or a +1 bonus or Roy's Will save score or number of attacks per round. It will turn on story elements, but there's just no telling how the story elements come into play. Durkon has a narrative stake in the outcome for his character growth; Belkar has a stake because it is the culmination of his ongoing war with Durkula; and Roy has a stake because (among other reasons) Durkon is his best friend. If I had to put money on it, I'd say those three and no others decide the outcome of the battle, rather than some esoteric combat advantage listed in a rule book.

I hold out a minor possibility that Elan, Haley and V enter at the last minute with a wrinkle all their own, but it seems unlikely (to me).

All those stakes- bad news for Dukula...:smallwink:

[Amphiox]

re: Banjo and Hel

There is one big difference between Hel and Banjo. Hel was one of the original gods that made the world. That means that those original gods were gods, with the powers to make a world, before there were any believers or worshippers at all. Which means their status as gods is not dependent on how many believers or worshippers they have. Perhaps their *power* might, but their *status* doesn't. And it is only their status that matters for their vote.

We don't know if the same rules apply to gods like Banjo, who are elevated by mortal belief.

Unless, of course, we're wrong about Banjo, and he actually *is* a primordial god, not a figment made up by Elan's imagination. (Maybe he planted the idea in Elan's mind as part of a plan to resurrect himself, and he is actually an ancient, long-forgotten trickster god of some sort....)

[Neoriceisgood]

All those stakes- bad news for Dukula...:smallwink:

Oh that's a bad pun. :smallbiggrin:

[Kantaki]

Well Seward's argument (back on page 4) was that Durkula probably didn't have any good higher level combat spells prepped if he was having to resort to using an Inflict spell. In that sense there is an important difference between if Durkula actually used a higher level spell like Destruction (7th level) rather than a lower level spell like Inflict Critical Wounds (4th level) because if Durkula did cast Destruction (one of his most powerful spells) that means we cannot assume that he doesn't have other high level combat spells prepped.

Also, the fact that Roy survived one of Durkula's best spells is important because Durkula doesn't have that many 7th level spell slots. Once Durkula's high level spells are gone the fight will favor Roy, so if that particular spell was Destuction then Roy just cleared a big hurdle by surviving it.

Well, from a optimal strategy point of view Destruction might be the better spell.
But considering the way Durkon has fought so far indicates either that he hasn't many combat spells prepared or that he is arrogant and underestimates Roy. Furthermore it seems he enjoys to taunt Roy a lot.
Considering he has opened the fight with his gaze and followed up with hold person it would make sense that he would choose to give up a lower level non-combat spell to turn it into a inflict spell (that is how this works right? Durkon can spontaneously turn his spells into inflict wound spells).
Why should he waste a high level spell that he might need at a later point against a foe he deems inferior and enjoys to taunt.

[Snails]

Personally, I don't think Roy will be defeated here, since he's died once already. I have doubts that the whole vampire "side-quest" will be resolved at this point, too, so while he may be defeated, I don't see HPoH going away (being made dead instead of undead) and Durkon coming back yet, either.

I agree that Roy dying or Dunkon's "special condition" being fixed seems like an unsatisfying resolution at this point.

However there is a lot of room for negotiation. One or more clerics/gods could step forward and say "I will intervene, thereby likely causing my high priest to be killed, and nullify my vote, unless...."

[Doug Lampert]

re: Damage reduction.

Adamantine wasn't technically able to bypass the CrystalGolem's DR, but IIRC the theory seemed to be that Rich was applying a not uncommon house rule to allow adamantine to bypass all DR.

By the same logic, Startmetal, with its anti-undead properties, may well bypass all undead DR, at least on bog standard undead such as vampires.

Or, it may not. We cannot be certain because we cannot see the combat logs to know how Roy is rolling.

Why in the world would adamantine not bypass "damage reduction 5/adamantine". Which is EXACTLY what a flesh golem gets.

[Ivrytwr]

Yeah, Roy needs to buy a clue about vampires.
The clerics dilemma is nicely played out. And Roy has a cheering section!

Thanks Giant!

[DragoonKain]

So I'm thinking... Roy's not gonna quite be able to stop the events in motion. The world's gonna end. Durkon's gonna die, Belkar too probably, though not from the fall. When Roy realizes they're gonna be unable to stop the world from ending, they pull the Teleport Orb out for an emergency stop - Girard's Gate, and jump through. Might be their last shot at doing something about the Snarl mess themselves. They get a bonus Favored Soul to replace Durkon for the time being.

Xykon and co. survive because they're on a different plane. They shunt back in, wonder what the hell, and somehow make it to the Snarl's world themselves.

[Anarion]

If I were one of the clerics, I'd consider waiting until one party was clearly going to lose and then helping that party. Even if a bunch of other clerics immediately help the other side, you basically reset the fight, which is better than one of them straight up losing. Also, I feel like cleric buffs are more effective at helping a fighter resist a bunch of things the undead do than they would be at helping the undead cleric do better at not dying to a magic sword.

Interesting though, I'm glad to see Durkon surface here. I want to see his take on what's just happened as well as if he can figure out some way to manipulate the vampire into fully revealing that he's not Durkon.

[The Troubadour]

Apparently he'd Sunna help a vampire than go against his deity. :rimshot:

Well played, sir. Well played!

[ti'esar]

Unless, of course, we're wrong about Banjo, and he actually *is* a primordial god, not a figment made up by Elan's imagination. (Maybe he planted the idea in Elan's mind as part of a plan to resurrect himself, and he is actually an ancient, long-forgotten trickster god of some sort....)

:elan: The call... of BANJULHU!

[LordRahl6]

Somehow, I can't see this being the climax for the HPoH. Yes, the Vote could be deemed the "Destruction on Us All," but I just feel that there's more to it.:smallfrown:

[Windscion]

Somehow, I can't see this being the climax for the HPoH. Yes, the Vote could be deemed the "Destruction on Us All," but I just feel that there's more to it.:smallfrown:

Nononono! You have to supply some spurious logic so other people can criticize it. Forum rule. :smallwink:

[Silverionmox]

Somehow, I can't see this being the climax for the HPoH. Yes, the Vote could be deemed the "Destruction on Us All," but I just feel that there's more to it.:smallfrown:
Methinks that the vampirized Stoners will be more than enough to bring death and destruction to dwarven lands, even if Hel's High Priest is dusted and resurrected into Durkon again right where he stands right now.

[Kantaki]

Nononono! You have to supply some spurious logic so other people can criticize it. Forum rule. :smallwink:

Oh come on. At least some forum members have to pretend to be reasonable. It makes the rest of us look crazier.:smallbiggrin:

[Bulldog Psion]

I don't see why everybody focuses on dissecting the mechanics of the fight. This isn't a tactical simulation, it's a story. It will unfold the way the storyteller decides.


Why? IMO, because people are excited about the fight and the storyline, and there's no basis for participation/speculation in "the way the storyteller decides."

So, people turn to the tactical simulation because they can't predict what the storyteller will decide. The tactical simulation at least gives them something semi-concrete to have a discussion about, related to the comic, and express their enthusiasm in that way. While waiting for the storyteller to decide what happens.

Otherwise, the discussion is going to look like this: "Well, whatever is going to happen, will happen." "Yep, you're right, it's going to happen however it happens." "Spot on, guys, whatever Rich decides will happen. Great speculation!"

People are just playing a mini-game while waiting, because they're interested in the comic. I don't see why it's such a big deal if people do. Is having fun tossing around numbers as a basis for speculation somehow an obscure criticism of Mr. Burlew, or something? I sure don't see it that way. :smallconfused:

[Amphiox]

:elan: The call... of BANJULHU!

What form more suited to the induction on unfathomable horror than a clown?

[Jay R]

People are saying that the priest of Heimdal (or any of the other yes-voting gods like Sunna) wouldn't go against his gods will, that is true. But it is implied that Heimdal would change his vote now that Hel has revealed her plan, only it is not allowed. If Heimdal can communicate the fact that he has changed his mind to his cleric, then said cleric can commit suicide to nullify the vote or buff Roy, without going against his gods will. The same goes for other yes-voters, but it is unclear whether they can communicate directly to their clerics at this point, Heimdal at least can, given he has a huge glowing proxy, that the mortals can hear talk.

Yes, that is a very clever way that Rich could nullify all the suspense in the story he's telling, and finesse past the hero's immediate mission. That's why it won't happen.

The same applies to all clever ways to end this fight before it plays out. Rich has set up a huge hero vs. villain fight with lots of character interaction and literally world-shattering consequences, and he's going to finish it.

This isn't a game, and Rich isn't looking for a quick and easy solution.

[Shining Wrath]

... SNIP ...


LOL you're quoting the SRD like Rich has to follow it or something. And, more to the point, you're quoting it poorly: nowhere does it say you are not able to speak.

Never said Rich has to follow it, but he does use the rules as a guideline for what characters can and cannot do; that's why Roy doesn't just suddenly Turn Undead or something like that.

As to "quoting it badly", the description for Gaseous Form says you can cast spells if you prepared them with Silent Spell metamagic. You can cast; you just can't use a verbal component. There's two ways to preclude a caster from using verbal components; either they cannot speak, or their speech cannot be heard. Your argument is therefore that a gaseous form can speak audibly any words they choose, except those that form the verbal component of a spell.

I find that tediously tendentious. The RAW is clear; you can't speak audibly without any vocal apparatus.

[TekHed]

Question: I understand Durkon was turned into a Vampire by being bitten by one...but I'm unclear on how he became possessed by the HPoH...that's not how vampirism usually is in DnD is it?

Also, why would a sun god not want the vampire to lose? Why not help Roy?

[Bulldog Psion]

Question: I understand Durkon was turned into a Vampire by being bitten by one...but I'm unclear on how he became possessed by the HPoH...that's not how vampirism usually is in DnD is it?

That's now how vampirism works in D&D, but that's how it works in the OotS campaign world, evidently.


Also, why would a sun god not want the vampire to lose? Why not help Roy?

"Nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html

The sun god doesn't give a hoot about the vampire one way or the other. Sunna's vote relates to the Snarl, and the priest is obliged to obey that command. I'd imagine directly defying one's god at a Godsmoot is followed a moment later by smiting.

[Odin's Eyepatch]

I think it is a Destruction spell, since inflict spells require you to actually touch the other person, while Destruction works at a distance. In any case, it makes sense. HPoH has found that his mind control spells are having no effect, and therefore turns to his next best spells: Insta-kill spells.

The reason why we don't hear what the HPoH says is because it isn't important, because Roy made his save. If he failed, we would have known what spell was cast. In the end it doesn't matter at all which spell it was, because all it did was damage, and it failed to kill Roy.

[AlignmentDebate]

That's now how vampirism works in D&D, but that's how it works in the OotS campaign world, evidently.

Didn't one of the old sourcebooks say that's how it works? Libris Mortis or something?

[Keltest]

Never said Rich has to follow it, but he does use the rules as a guideline for what characters can and cannot do; that's why Roy doesn't just suddenly Turn Undead or something like that.

As to "quoting it badly", the description for Gaseous Form says you can cast spells if you prepared them with Silent Spell metamagic. You can cast; you just can't use a verbal component. There's two ways to preclude a caster from using verbal components; either they cannot speak, or their speech cannot be heard. Your argument is therefore that a gaseous form can speak audibly any words they choose, except those that form the verbal component of a spell.

I find that tediously tendentious. The RAW is clear; you can't speak audibly without any vocal apparatus.

And the comic is even more clear that you can speak in gaseous form, as evidenced by exactly that happening.

It is not at all implausible that speaking in cloud form simply distorts the words such that they cannot be used in a spell, but are still understandable.

[Bulldog Psion]

Didn't one of the old sourcebooks say that's how it works? Libris Mortis or something?

Probably; I never owned that one, though.

[bguy]

Well, from a optimal strategy point of view Destruction might be the better spell.
But considering the way Durkon has fought so far indicates either that he hasn't many combat spells prepared or that he is arrogant and underestimates Roy. Furthermore it seems he enjoys to taunt Roy a lot.
Considering he has opened the fight with his gaze and followed up with hold person it would make sense that he would choose to give up a lower level non-combat spell to turn it into a inflict spell (that is how this works right? Durkon can spontaneously turn his spells into inflict wound spells).
Why should he waste a high level spell that he might need at a later point against a foe he deems inferior and enjoys to taunt.

All of the spells/special attacks Durkula has made so far are ones that would end in the fight in a single round. That doesn't suggest he is toying with Roy. Durkula is trying to win the fight as quickly and easily as he can. Roy has just been rolling really well on his saves so far.

Also there does appear to be a certain logical progression to Durkula's attacks so far.

He opens with the Dominating gaze. It's a will save, so it's reasonable for him to believe a fighter will be vulnerable to it, and if it works the fight is over. Unfortunately for Durkula, Roy makes his save.

Durkula then proceeds to take things up a notch and try the Hold Person spell. This is also a will save effect and an insta-win for Durkula if Roy fails the save. Also for Hold Person Durkula gets to apply his wisdom bonus rather than his charisma bonus, so it likely will be a slightly tougher save for Roy to make. And if Durkula knows that Roy has an anti-spell casting feat, this is a good spell to use to see if Roy is using that feat (after all if Roy disrupts the spell Durkula is only out a 2nd level spell.) The spell fails though due to Roy again making his will save.

At this point, Durkula has failed twice with will based attacks, so he has good reason to think such attacks are a waste of time. (For all he knows Roy has some serious magic boosting his will save). At the same time Durkula also successfully just cast a spell without it being disrupted by Roy, so he can now feel more confident in risking using high level spells since it appears Roy either doesn't have a spellcaster busting feat or isn't using it for some reason. (For all Durkula knows employing that feat might impose a significant penalty on Roy's attacks that makes it impractical for him to use it against Durkula given the later's impressive armor class.)

Thus Durkula now switches tactics from will based attacks to trying a fortitude based attack spell. But since he knows fortitude is Roy's best saving throw, he also knows he is going to have to use a higher level spell to have a decent chance of having Roy fail the save, so Durkula breaks out Destruction. As a 7th level spell, it is going to be a relatively difficult save even for a high level fighter, and if Roy fails the save the fight is over. Plus even if Roy makes the save, Destruction is still going to inflict on average 35 points of damage. (By contrast Inflict Critical Wounds will average only 36 points of damage if the target fails their save.) And Destruction doesn't require a touch attack (so there's no risk of rolling a freak 1 and wasting the attack.)

Nor is there any reason for Durkula to hold back on breaking out the big spells at this point. He probably prepped the Destruction anticipating he would have to fight V, but V isn't here and is unlikely to arrive during the course of the fight, so why not use it on Roy. If it works the fight is over, the world gets destroyed, and Hel wins. If it doesn't work, Roy still takes as much damage as he would on a successful Inflict Critical Wounds attack, and Durkula still has most of high level spells left in case something unexpected happens.

[Shining Wrath]

And the comic is even more clear that you can speak in gaseous form, as evidenced by exactly that happening.

It is not at all implausible that speaking in cloud form simply distorts the words such that they cannot be used in a spell, but are still understandable.

And as I said at the beginning, Malack had numerous special powers. So that he did something at a moment when it was suitable to telling the story does not mean that the HPoH will be able to do so if it isn't.

If you're the DM, do you read Gaseous Form and allow people to speak clearly and distinctly?

[littlebum2002]

Never said Rich has to follow it, but he does use the rules as a guideline for what characters can and cannot do; that's why Roy doesn't just suddenly Turn Undead or something like that.

As to "quoting it badly", the description for Gaseous Form says you can cast spells if you prepared them with Silent Spell metamagic. You can cast; you just can't use a verbal component. There's two ways to preclude a caster from using verbal components; either they cannot speak, or their speech cannot be heard. Your argument is therefore that a gaseous form can speak audibly any words they choose, except those that form the verbal component of a spell.

I find that tediously tendentious. The RAW is clear; you can't speak audibly without any vocal apparatus.

RAW does not say you can't talk, it says you can't cast spells with vocal components. RAI, obviously, is that you cannot talk but that's the difference between RAW and RAI. Nowhere is it written that you cannot talk, therefore the Rule As Written is not that you can't talk.

But you agree Rich doesn't have to follow D&D, which of course he does not have to, and did not follow in that case when he let Malack talk (probably because he speaks using negative energy instead of vocal chords), but then you completely ignore that and give another (equally against D&D rules) explanation for him talking.

Occams Razor: we've seen a vampire talk when in gaseous form, and that is just as much evidence for "vampires can talk when in gaseous form" and "Malack has a special power that alows him to talk in gaseous form". "Vampires can talk when in gaseous form" is the simplest explanation so we go with that until we've seen otherwise. "Malack just so happens to be the only vampire that can talk in gaseous form" is a much more complicated and unnecessary explanation for what we have seen so far.




If you're the DM, do you read Gaseous Form and allow people to speak clearly and distinctly?

If a player was smart enough to point out to me that the undead don't need vocal chords, and therefore still should be able to talk in gaseous form, then oh yeah I would give it to them.

[Keltest]

And as I said at the beginning, Malack had numerous special powers. So that he did something at a moment when it was suitable to telling the story does not mean that the HPoH will be able to do so if it isn't.

If you're the DM, do you read Gaseous Form and allow people to speak clearly and distinctly?

If their voices come from negative energy rather than a physical organ in their body? Sure.

Durkon has been speaking exclusively with undead non-vochal-chord speech. Malack did not. Furthermore, Malack did not have any abnormal vampiric powers that we saw.

Youre trying to argue a rules interpretation against evidence straight from the comic. I don't know where youre expecting this to go.

[Doug Lampert]

And as I said at the beginning, Malack had numerous special powers. So that he did something at a moment when it was suitable to telling the story does not mean that the HPoH will be able to do so if it isn't.

If you're the DM, do you read Gaseous Form and allow people to speak clearly and distinctly?

Probably, because "cannot speak" => "cannot cast spells with verbal components" is quite clear by the rules, and the converse is a rule you are making up out of your head.

Thus if the intent was "cannot speak", they could have said "cannot speak". The later statement that spells prepared with silent spell could still be cast would have acted as a reminder for those that needed it that speech includes verbal components.

Would you say that gaseous forms can't wave their hands because they can't use somatic components?

[SilentNight]

Is there a reason Roy isn't using his spell interrupt feat?

[KorvinStarmast]

So...

2nd made will save, this time vs hold person
Failed will save vs. a cause critical wounds?

Roy hits once out of three attacks vs. Durkon's AC 35+/DR 10/fast healing 5.


Why do vampires even have a natural armor bonus? Being a vampire doesn't make you a rhino or a dinosaur. You are faster and sneaker, sure, but not thicker skinned.

Some answers here (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/68035/22566) and here (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/68034/22566).

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well, I'm glad that question was answered.

[Rorrik]

Where is the Belkster when you need him? Oh, yea, falling off a cliff. Belkar, stop messing around and get in there!

[littlebum2002]

Probably, because "cannot speak" => "cannot cast spells with verbal components" is quite clear by the rules, and the converse is a rule you are making up out of your head.

Also this.

[nath3890]

Yes, that is a very clever way that Rich could nullify all the suspense in the story he's telling, and finesse past the hero's immediate mission. That's why it won't happen.

The same applies to all clever ways to end this fight before it plays out. Rich has set up a huge hero vs. villain fight with lots of character interaction and literally world-shattering consequences, and he's going to finish it.

This isn't a game, and Rich isn't looking for a quick and easy solution.

You know I had actually registered to suggest that exact out, but since its taken now I'll come up with another one.
The gods of the north decide to take in Banjo as their god of puppets after all thus the tie breaking vote can be given to The HPoB instead of the demigods.

[Havelocke]

Okay so I have some ideas of what may or may not happen here. We now know that the other clerics are not able to buff Roy, they have to remain neutral here. Durkula has possibly turned two members of the stone followers, correct? So what if the HPoH's plan is to take out the demi-god priests using those two? I could see a call go out to all demi-god priests to assemble. Elan would jump at this chance to prove that Banjo is indeed worthy of God-hood. Reinforcements would then be forthcoming so Roy could wrap this up. Somehow, someway the true Durkon will let something slip that Roy will recognize and realize that his friend is being held hostage in his own corpsified body, Roy then unleashes all Heck upon the Vampire, thus forcing it to assume gaseous form. What happens then, I am not sure. As to the fate of poor Belkar, I can only hope that V notices something or that someone on the airship recognizes the halfling falling again. Just hunches I know, not a whole lot of proof to back it up, but as Elan once said, Hope can go a long way!

[SoC175]

He's hitting more like once per round; do you not remember a fighter of his level gets 3 attacks per round? With a ever decreasing chance to hit and a cleric is a high AC Class, as high as any fighter (and higher than a 2h-weapon fighter)

Long story short - this fighter, who has been training for 10 years to fight an epic level sorcerer who has become a lich, can and will beat a not-epic level cleric who has become a vampire. There's little you can do to specifically train again epic level sorcerer lichs. He mostly trained to become a better fighter. Except for his anti cast feat, but this doesn't seem to be doing him much good

but when Roy starts using his spell disruption feat Because he totally has reasons to be all "yeah, I'll chose to not use it right from the start, because I love being hit by spells"

[Doug Lampert]

Some answers here (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/68035/22566) and here (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/68034/22566).

Also, a succubus has a natural armor bonus of +9, as opposed to +4 for a crocodile. Just look at them! Can't you see which one has the astonishingly tough armored skin providing more protection than plate armor? :smallcool: Basically, the writers of 3.0 and 3.5 simply used a natural armor bonus as a blatant fudge factor to get the armor about right for various creatures, the natural armor bonuses have no relationship to how thick or tough the skin is.

Personally, I'm astonished they didn't give any oozes natural armor myself.

Look through the monsters, natural armor is simply assigned for creatures that need a higher AC than the formulas give them. (Which messes things up horribly if you give a monster actual gear, and again messes things up since it means that touch spells pretty well always hit big monsters.)

[JT]

If a player was smart enough to point out to me that the undead don't need vocal chords, and therefore still should be able to talk in gaseous form, then oh yeah I would give it to them.

And, we know for a fact that in the OOTsverse vocal cords do not vibrate when the vampire talks, because it is not normally inhaling nor exhaling, and sounds like a badly tuned bagpipe when it makes the effort to fake that aspect of life.

[Bluepaw]

Lets be honest here folks. The clerics are not going to come in and save the day. That would completely undermine Roy's contributions to the fight, not to mention the overall point of his story arc that a fighter can be just as powerful as a spellcaster. At best, the clerics will create a situation where the vampire has to sit there and either win or die, instead of running away.

True, but we've also seen Roy win fights through a superior tactical use of his surroundings... even if the clerics won't intercede, Roy could still drive the fight toward them, limiting HPoH's use of area-of-effect spells -- or try to goad the vamp into causing collateral damage through such spells. Though it wouldn't be exactly lawful good to try to bring about damage to onlookers knowing that it would rescind HPoH's immunity...

[Kantaki]

Why do people keep bringing up Banjo?
I mean the last time the puppet’s so called „divinity” came up was when? While Roy was playing Hui Buh, during the orc-island subarc? And even then it was played for comedy.
Why do people want it to solve a serious part of the plot.

[pendell]

Banjo's a gun on the mantlepiece, and if the gun's on the table in act 1, it's almost certain to be fired at some point in the story.


... that doesn't mean Banjo will actually help solve this arc or, indeed, anything. But I don't think Rich has exhausted Banjo's comic potential yet.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Breccia]

Is there a reason Roy isn't using his spell interrupt feat?

Because it's only a surprise once, maybe?

"Word of Re--"

"GOTCHA!"

[Father Miles]

Banjo's a gun on the mantlepiece, and if the gun's on the table in act 1, it's almost certain to be fired at some point in the story.


... that doesn't mean Banjo will actually help solve this arc or, indeed, anything. But I don't think Rich has exhausted Banjo's comic potential yet.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I think most of the story arcs have moved beyond comic potential. Maybe post denouement we'll see Elan getting scolded by Banjo for failing to attend.

[DeliaP]

Is there a reason Roy isn't using his spell interrupt feat?

One reason might be Durkula is 5-foot stepping away from Roy before casting.

I can't tell from the comic whether this is the case or not: most of Durkula's actions have not been touch attacks. Whether the damage inflicting spell is destruction or inflict something wounds seems to be the only one that might be at issue.

We don't really much about how the spell disruptor feat works, against a caster who is using the 5-ft step.

Possibly Roy needs to back Durkula into a corner somehow...or trip him up, so he has to waste his move action getting up.

I have a thought though, when we will see it brought out, following some of the posts here.... Roy has been making his saves, and Durkula has been taking damage. When Durkula starts to get low on hp, he taunts Roy with the idea he'll just go into gaseous form and float to the ceiling. Roy challenges whether he'll be able to maintain the proxy spell like that. Durkula, clearly rattled by this, starts to cast Harm on himself (he's been holding it back...) when Roy surprises Durkula with the spell disruptor feat and blocks it... then it's Roy's turn, and he unloads a full attack for the win.

Basically, Roy keeps it in reserve till he can make the most effective use of it.

The drama appeals, but to be honest, given Durkula is firing off save-or-lose spells, Roy shouldn't be holding back his spell disruptor feat at all, if he can use it, as the consequences of a single blown saving throw is disastrous... That's basically the gist of this fight: if Roy's saves holds up, he can smack Durkula down. But one bad roll and Durkula wins.

The spell-disruptor is one of Roy's key build features for defeating a spell caster, so I'd have to assume Roy just hasn't been in the right position yet.

Edit: Ninja'd by Breccia, who said it much quicker! (But I reckon Harm, not Word of Recall, because if Durkula want's to volutarily take himself back to the Mechane, Roy wins this battle..)

[bguy]

Is there a reason Roy isn't using his spell interrupt feat?

Maybe using it imposes a penalty to Roy's attacks. He's having enough trouble landing hits on Durkula as it is, so he might well have decided he can't afford any additional negative modifiers in this fight. (Especially since he has to win this fight in a hurry.)

[r2d2go]

Maybe the spell-disruption feat is vs arcane only?

Or, he is using it, but he hasn't hit the necessary attack because of the massive vampiric AC?

[RblDiver]

I can't wait to see the epic cleric fight when they decide to join in! We've seen a preview of it before! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html) lol

[King of Nowhere]

"my goddess has decided what she think is best and I will not question her judgment"
That cleric has true faith. In that circumstance I'd swap religion.

[gneissisnice]

I wonder what would happen if a cleric tried to cast Resurrection on Durkula as the fight progresses. I know it's a long cast time, but if Roy can keep him occupied for the duration then Durkon is back.

Would that violate the rules? After all, Resurrection is a helpful spell.Though realistically, I imagine that Roy will no help from any of the clerics.

[Gnoman]

I wonder what would happen if a cleric tried to cast Resurrection on Durkula as the fight progresses. I know it's a long cast time, but if Roy can keep him occupied for the duration then Durkon is back.

Would that violate the rules? After all, Resurrection is a helpful spell.Though realistically, I imagine that Roy will no help from any of the clerics.

It wouldn't violate the rules, since it would do absoulutely nothing whatsoever - D&D isn't Final Fantasy, and Revive does not Kill Zombie. Ressurection can't do anything unless the undead is first destroyed.

[Adeptus]

Man this is good. Excellent work Giant. Truly great game mastering, as it were.

[gneissisnice]

It wouldn't violate the rules, since it would do absoulutely nothing whatsoever - D&D isn't Final Fantasy, and Revive does not Kill Zombie. Ressurection can't do anything unless the undead is first destroyed.

Oh, I got the sense that casting Resurrection on him would be enough to bring him back, they never mentioned having to kill him first before getting a cleric to revive him.

I guess that makes sense though.

[Mightymosy]

So, that's why there are no buffs.

I like how Sunna's cleric wants to save the world, but doesn't want to defy his god. Good man.

Ehhm. No.

I hope you are being sarcastic.

[Mightymosy]

Arent these guys like, the high priests of their religions? Do you really expect the "pope" of each group to go, "You know what? The god I have dedicated my entire life to serving and have done so faithfully for years/decades is probably wrong now. Im going to violate all the rules of this holy meeting, and ignore my gods choice and do what i want instead."?

[...].

Yes! Yes, exactly!!!

At least someone should have reason! Or empathy!...

I mean, the fertility priestess at least is reasonable.

Ok, and some of the other priests are maybe just evil.

But there could be at least some arguing, or maybe some internal monologues, at least some priest could have doubts.

Is being a total puppet a prerequisite for becoming a priest in D&D?

[Keltest]

Oh, I got the sense that casting Resurrection on him would be enough to bring him back, they never mentioned having to kill him first before getting a cleric to revive him.

I guess that makes sense though.

They have alluded to it several times, actually. Additionally, earlier in the comic when Roy was being resurrected, Durkon explicitly stated they needed to destroy the bone golem before he could be resurrected.


Yes! Yes, exactly!!!

At least someone should have reason! Or empathy!...

I mean, the fertility priestess at least is reasonable.

Ok, and some of the other priests are maybe just evil.

But there could be at least some arguing, or maybe some internal monologues, at least some priest could have doubts.

Is being a total puppet a prerequisite for becoming a priest in D&D?

There is arguing going on, and many of the priests do have doubts. We just saw that. But at the end of the day, the order of the godmoot and the wills of their various gods take precedence over their personal opinions.