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Erk
2007-05-10, 06:10 PM
Tweak might be too weak of a word. I am rebalancing the main classes for a very homebrew campaign. Most of the tweaks were inspired either by stuff on this board or by Unearthed Arcana.

#1: Prestigify.
Barbarian (renamed Berserker), Bard, Druid, Monk, Paladin, and Ranger are all prestige classes now. Bard, Pally, and Ranger will use existing prestigification rules, although I will tweak them further if any of my players are considering being one since they are no longer in line with the power balance in my campaign (principally pally and ranger. Bard is quite nicely balanced as-is)
-Berserker has pretty low requirements, mainly just that it can't be entered from 1st level. It will get a few minor bonuses as well as its existing stuff.
-Monk and druid are available as a base class to people born into an appropriate culture, which is not where the pc's will be starting. I will make prestige versions of them available when the PC's enter regions with those classes.

#2: Tweakzorz
Cleric: Split in twain! There is a spells-heavy cleric and a fights-heavy cleric.
-The "priest" class is the same as the "cloistered cleric", but with spontaneous spellcasting. Priests with the "healing" domain have their heal spells die increased to d12 instead of d8 as well as casting as 1 level higher.
-the "cleric" class is mostly the same as the old "cleric" class, but can cast 1 fewer spell per day, only gets to choose 1 domain, and gets Turn Undead 1 level lower and turns as a cleric 1 level lower. Clerics must have their holy symbols exposed and visible in order to cast any spell, and enemies can prevent cleric casting by destroying the holy symbol. When creating a good cleric or neutral cleric who can heal, choose one of the following:
1) can spontaneously cast heal only to heal other people
2) can spontaneously cast heal only to heal self
3) can spontaneously cast domain spells
Fighter:
I will be using Bears with Lasers' charged-up fighter class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30692). Since I am toning down casters, I might tone down BWL's mod a bit too, but since we are starting at low levels I have lots of time to think about it.
Rogue:
The first change is that I am not going to include any traps that a rogue cannot find. There will be some devious traps that cannot be sprung by a naked barbarian running through the dungeon screaming, but will be sprung by the party passing by unsuspecting. Also, knock causes a loud noise. Only a rogue can open a lock without alerting a wide area.
Rogue itself has been pumped a bit.
1) bonus feat at level 4, 6, 10, and 14.
choose from Weapon Finesse, improved critical, improved initiative, any skill-increasing feat, combat expertise and its derivatives, combat reflexes, run, point blank shot and its derivatives, quick draw, rapid reload, or a spelltouch feat (from my spelltouched mod).
2) +1 to fort or will save at levels 5, 10, 15, 20 (player chooses each time)
3) every level of trap sense also counts as a competance bonus towards Search checks to find traps. Dodge bonuses from trap sense to avoid traps are doubled. The rogue hears that infinitessimal "clink" the instant she sets off a trap, and before she is even aware of it in her mind, razor-honed reflexes send her flying out of the path of the poisoned dart.
Sorceror:
Ah, the redheaded stepchild caster.
-cast spells using spellpoints as per unearthed arcana. Metamagic costs extra spell points.
-d6 hit die, good reflex save
-4sp rather than 2
-add class skills: diplomacy, gather info, handle animal, intimidate, knowledge:nobility, perform, sense motive
-no familiar
-can select a Domain which grants one bonus spell known per spell level. Just as with cleric domains, the player doesn't get to pick which spells... they are intrinsic to the domain. My domains will all have several esoteric, less-commonly-chosen spells that still have use.
Wizard:
-Mostly the same, but the wizard must actually have his spellbook out and visible to cast a spell from it, unless he has taken Spell Mastery in that spell or it is a spell of his specialist school. The spellbook can be attacked and destroyed: the wizard can (concentration check) finish casting the spell he was working on if this happens, but is afterwards limited to his other powers and his specialist school spells. He still can't prepare spells in his specialist school without his spellbook.
-A wizard may create "loose pages" with spells inscribed on them, as backups of the spells in his spellbook.
To "pamphletise" spells costs 10 gp in materials per cubed level of the spell (so, 10 for level 1, 80 for level 2, 270 for level 3, up to a bit over 7000 for a 9th level spell).
Pamphelts can be used in place of a spellbook in all ways. A wizard can have a number of spells equal to his spells/day secreted away in pamphlets; they don't have to be the same as the spells he has prepared, and they are as persistent as the spellbook (so the same pamphlet can be used to cast magic missile 3 times if the wizard prepared magic missile 3 times that day). Of course he can make multiple pamphlets of the same spell for extra security, too. He can't make a pamphlet until he has the spell scribed in his spellbook, though; the pamphlet is created by copying out of the spellbook.
-Wizards will have increased access to spelltouched feats, gaining them as bonus feats at levels 2, 4, 8, 12, and 16. (note that there are a lot more spelltouched feats available in my campaign)
Extra spells/feats so far:
Floating Papers
Universal
Level: Wiz 0
Components: V
Casting Time: Free action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Until spell is cast

The wizard utters the name of a spell he needs, and a loose paper with the spell inscribed floats to where he can see it freely. If written on mundane paper, the paper has AC 16 and 1 hit point. It gains AC bonuses from a shield spell, or any large or tower shield the wizard is wielding, but not from Mage Armour or other spells clinging tightly to the wizard's body.

The paper will float at ready until the wizard reads from it. It will float for days if then ignored, but the wizard cannot summon another paper to hand unless he either casts his readied spell or dismisses it back into his robes (a free action).

Floating Book
Universal
Level: Wiz 1
Components: V
Casting Time: Free action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Until dismissed

This functions as Floating Papers, but it summons the wizard's spellbook, which then flips open to the page he requests. See individual spellbook descriptions for information on their AC, hardness, and hit points. As with Floating Papers, the spellbook gains AC bonuses from protection spells which affect a small area around the wizard, but not those which cling to his body.

Once this spell is cast, the book will float at ready until the wizard dismisses it, flipping itself open to spells as he requests them. It will float there for days if not dismissed.

The feat Dodging Book increases the spellbook's AC.

Dodging Book [Metamagic]
The wizard's spellbook gains a sort of sentience, dodging and weaving away from attacks of its own accord.
Prerequisites: Able to cast Floating Book.
Benefits: Add the wizard's caster level to the Spellbook's AC. Additionally, the wizard gains 1 use per day of Floating Book as a spell-like ability.
Attacks against the spellbook which miss but fall inside this bonus AC cause it to bob and weave distractingly. If the wizard is attempting to cast a spell from the book at the time, he must pass a concentration check equal to 12+his caster level.

Spontaneous Wizardry [Metamagic]
The wizard can spontaneously cast spells he has scribed onto loose pages ("pamphlets").
Benefits: Any spell that has been scribed onto a pamphlet can be cast spontaneously as normal. However, to cast the spell, two prepared spells of the same level must be sacrificed.


What are your thoughts about this rebalance? Any suggestions? Have I pumped anyone up too far or nerfed anyone too seriously?

Gwenfloor
2007-05-10, 07:20 PM
Speaking of making core classes prestige, you may want to take a look at Unearthed Arcana. It has a variant Prestige Bard, Prestige Ranger, and Prestige Paladin.

DracoDei
2007-05-10, 07:37 PM
In this case I would AT LEAST let wizards keep each spell as a seperate 'pamphit' so they can keep individual backups of each and not lose everything at one go.

MeklorIlavator
2007-05-10, 07:49 PM
For your more militant cleric, you might want to have a look at the class in my Sig. It is primarily used in cases where you are using cloistered clerics, but want a more militant side to holy orders, too. It gets spells like a bard, but can cast in any armor or shield, and gets some auras and litanies(home brewed version of bardic music). I like to think of them as Dragon shaman mixed with bards, with religious flavor. Pretty fun class, in its creator's opinion.

All in all, though, it looks pretty good, except the wizard is a bit disadvantaged. Too easy to knock out now that they always have to keep the spell book revealed. I would go along with DracoDei suggestion.

AmberVael
2007-05-10, 07:54 PM
I assume you already looked at this, but have you considered using the Domain Wizard's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizardVariantDomainWiz ard) domains for your sorcerer?
I think that'd work pretty well.

sigurd
2007-05-10, 08:09 PM
I'd _never_ play a wizard in such a world. The spellbook is the battery that powers the whole class. In a world where you'd naturally target visible books first you'd have no early spellcasters. Who can afford a dozen spellbooks by weight or cost?

Early spellcasters usually only have one copy. Its about a dozen times worse than requiring the cleric's holy symbol because A) Its fragile B) its unwieldy. You couldn't have a spell book in one hand and a weapon or shield in the other because you'd need to direct your attention to the book.

If I sunder a fighters sword he picks up another weapon but the wizard is dogfood without his book.


Sigurd

AmberVael
2007-05-10, 08:12 PM
One possible way to nerf down a wizard is to require that they specialize- but give them no bonus spells.
Oh, and make it so that they have to give up two schools for divination just like all other schools.

Erk
2007-05-10, 11:05 PM
One possible way to nerf down a wizard is to require that they specialize- but give them no bonus spells.
Oh, and make it so that they have to give up two schools for divination just like all other schools.

That doesn't nerf them very much. Since, in my experience, nearly all wizards specialise anyway, it just amounts to 1 fewer spell/day. It's also the kind of nerf I am trying to avoid as much as possible, namely one that doesn't change anything except making gameplay a little less fun for the class in question. I like the spellbook change because it adds a weakness to the wizard, but one that clever wizard players can overcome and strategise around, rather than one that is just a raw-numbers nerf. However, folks raise good points ......

I love the idea of "pamphlets". I'll allow the wizard to "pamphletise" his spells at the cost of 10 gp in materials per cubed level of the spell (so, 10 for level 1, 80 for level 2, 270 for level 3, up to a bit over 7000 for a 9th level spell) - that should amount to just a bit more than a token cost at any given spell level. They can be used in place of a spellbook in all ways. He can have a number of spells equal to his spells/day secreted away in pamphlets; they don't have to be the same as the spells he has prepared, and they are as persistent as the spellbook (so the same pamphlet can be used to cast magic missile 3 times if the wizard prepared magic missile 3 times that day). Of course he can make multiple pamphlets of the same spell for extra security, too. He can't make a pamphlet until he has the spell scribed in his spellbook, though; the pamphlet is created by copying out of the spellbook. Any successful hit on a pamphlet destroys it pretty much instantly: it's just a bit of paper.

He's allowed to read off a pamphlet even if his spellbook is handy. That lets him keep his book a bit safer.

I love this idea! Thanks very much, DracoDei. On top of the basics, I will sketch up some Pamphlet-related feats, wherein wizards can scribe particular versions of a spell into a pamphlet and receive bonuses to that spell when using that particular pamphlet (stuff like improved spell penetration, reduced cost metamagic, etc).



Also, regarding one-hand-free, I am assuming that the Arcane Spell Failure associated with wielding a shield (very high) is in this campaign world due to the fact that in your other hand you are holding a book. I'll waive the difficulty of finding the page; presumably a wizard is tuned to his spellbook enough that he can just flick it open to the right spot. Once open, it's not hard to read a page out of a book while holding the book in just one hand. So, you can hold the book onehanded, although it puts you at a bigger risk of having your book knocked away.

On top of that I will include a "floating book" spell and a feat or something that makes it persistent, which causes your book to float before you and flip itself open to the right page when you want to cast a spell. Stylish, eh? said spell would probably also give the book a dodge AC :)

Hazkali
2007-05-11, 09:16 AM
I'd _never_ play a wizard in such a world. The spellbook is the battery that powers the whole class. In a world where you'd naturally target visible books first you'd have no early spellcasters. Who can afford a dozen spellbooks by weight or cost?

An easy way to get around this is to reduce the cost and/or weight of spellbooks. Maybe the option for a "Light Spellbook" at half the weight and page count would provide enough of a variation.

Also, reduce the amount of gold per spell level it takes to scribe a spell by ~25%, and you're rolling.

Does a Wizard still have to prepare spells, or can he cast any spell scribed in his spellbook by reffering to it at the appropriate time? If this is the case I take back the reccomendation about reducing the amount of gold it takes to scribe spells, as it would unbalance the wizard even more.

AmberVael
2007-05-11, 09:19 AM
That doesn't nerf them very much. Since, in my experience, nearly all wizards specialise anyway, it just amounts to 1 fewer spell/day. It's also the kind of nerf I am trying to avoid as much as possible, namely one that doesn't change anything except making gameplay a little less fun for the class in question. I like the spellbook change because it adds a weakness to the wizard, but one that clever wizard players can overcome and strategise around, rather than one that is just a raw-numbers nerf. However, folks raise good points ......
I'll grant that it doesn't nerf them much- but giving someone one massive weakness and leaving them with all their strength is practically making them a min-maxer, which isn't exactly what you want to do.
If you slowly take away little bits at a time, then you can balance the class without turning them into min-maxed class- which is what the spellbook weakness would do, in my opinion.
The specialization would merely be part of a whole.

sigurd
2007-05-11, 02:56 PM
If you don't like wizards replace them with psions or make all magic divine.

Yakk
2007-05-11, 04:41 PM
A simple idea is to restrict your spellcasting level to 1/2 of your character level. Spellcasting classes become 10 level classes.

Multiclassing a spellcaster becomes smart.

Then boost up the per-level abilities of the spellcasting classes.

As an example:
Wizard:
2 extra skill points per level.

1/5/9: Free metamagic feat.
2/6/10: 1/2/3 points of free spontanious metamagic per round.
3/7: Spell Resistence of 10+class level/2 and 10+class level.
4: All cantrips gain free Quicken Metamagic. Can cast a cantrip as a full-round action without burning spell points.
8: All 1st level spells gain free Quicken Metamagic. Can cast a 1st level spell as a full-round action without burning spell points.

Wizard Familiars progress twice as fast.

Do that with all of the caster classes, and keep an eye out for dual-classing casters.

...

My objection to the BWL fighter is that it is cluttered with special rules. This makes the class hard to understand, and each of those special rules could have a balance bug in them (either too weak, or two strong).

Here is my attempt at a fighter-plus:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31412

It has 1 core idea (stances) and everything else falls from there.

Erk
2007-05-11, 08:17 PM
An easy way to get around this is to reduce the cost and/or weight of spellbooks. Maybe the option for a "Light Spellbook" at half the weight and page count would provide enough of a variation.

Also, reduce the amount of gold per spell level it takes to scribe a spell by ~25%, and you're rolling.

Does a Wizard still have to prepare spells, or can he cast any spell scribed in his spellbook by reffering to it at the appropriate time? If this is the case I take back the reccomendation about reducing the amount of gold it takes to scribe spells, as it would unbalance the wizard even more.

Reducing the cost and introducing a "light spellbook" is a great idea.

The wizard still has to prepare spells as before; the only difference as it currently lies is that while casting spells he has an additional weakness he has to account for. This is an effort to cover for him now being far and away the most powerful spellcaster in the game... which is, I think, exactly how it should be.


I'll grant that it doesn't nerf them much- but giving someone one massive weakness and leaving them with all their strength is practically making them a min-maxer, which isn't exactly what you want to do.
If you slowly take away little bits at a time, then you can balance the class without turning them into min-maxed class- which is what the spellbook weakness would do, in my opinion.
The specialization would merely be part of a whole.

I see what you are saying about the spellbook; the thing is I don't really want wizards to be weaker casters if I can avoid it. I want them to have soft points that their enemies can aim for, and ways to try to reduce those soft points but never fully remove them.

Hmm, what I could do though is require specialisation, treat it normally, but dictate the barred schools myself like it was done in 2nd edition. Or perhaps specify one barred school and allow the player to pick the other. Thus I can ensure that selecting an appealing school ensures you have another majorly appealing school barred...


If you don't like wizards replace them with psions or make all magic divine.

Where did I say, or even imply, that I don't like wizards? Of the original Major Casters they're getting the smallest nerf. Druids are gone and clerics have been chopped in half. The only caster getting a round-the-table boost is the sorceror, whose implementation has never made much sense to me.

As it stands the Wizard can still do everything he could do before, he just has to be a bit more careful about it. Plus he gets extra feats.


Yakk: in general your scheme is cool but strays further than I want to for wizard. However, I like one idea about casting spells without preparation/advance. Perhaps the Wizard only needs his spellbook and/or pamphlets for spells of his 5 highest castable levels? When he becomes able to cast 5th level spells, he no longer needs it for cantrips. When he becomes able to cast 6th level spells, he no longer needs it for 1st level. Et cetera. There will still be abilities and feats related to clever use of pamphlets to boost spells (might tie it into metamagic, I have some interesting ideas about that) but the pamphlets are no longer required and the spellbook is only needed for preparation. Since it would never protect higher than 4th level spells I see it being more of a convenient bonus than a balance issue. To sweeten it up I might pump spell/day uses of those lower level spells as well, since at a high level they are mostly just for effect or wiping out minor baddies anyway.

Coupled with not needing a spellbook to cast his specialist school as mentioned above, a mid-to-high level wizard is not at all that much of a disadvantage without his spellbook. Especially if he has spent one or two feats on getting some spellmastery. A low-level wizard is harmed, but still has his specialist school available.


Thanks for the feedback folks, this is interesting so far.




Edit: Some other ideas I have had:
1) double the number of times/day sorcerors and clerics can cast 0th level spells. Quadruple it for wizards and priests (cloistered clerics).
2) some wizard feats will allow types of spontaneous casting: for example, one in particular I have thought of will allow the wizard to spontaneously cast any spell he has scribed to a pamphlet, at the cost of two of his spell slots for that level spell (eg. spontaneous-casting a level 1 spell requires him to sacrifice 2 of his prepared level 1 spells)

Floating Papers
Universal
Level: Wiz 0
Components: V
Casting Time: Free action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Until spell is cast

The wizard utters the name of a spell he needs, and a loose paper with the spell inscribed floats to where he can see it freely. If written on mundane paper, the paper has AC 16 and 1 hit point. It gains AC bonuses from a shield spell, or any large or tower shield the wizard is wielding, but not from Mage Armour or other spells clinging tightly to the wizard's body.

The paper will float at ready until the wizard reads from it. It will float for days if then ignored, but the wizard cannot summon another paper to hand unless he either casts his readied spell or dismisses it back into his robes (a free action).

Floating Book
Universal
Level: Wiz 1
Components: V
Casting Time: Free action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Until dismissed

This functions as Floating Papers, but it summons the wizard's spellbook, which then flips open to the page he requests. See individual spellbook descriptions for information on their AC, hardness, and hit points. As with Floating Papers, the spellbook gains AC bonuses from protection spells which affect a small area around the wizard, but not those which cling to his body.

Once this spell is cast, the book will float at ready until the wizard dismisses it, flipping itself open to spells as he requests them. It will float there for days if not dismissed.

The feat Dodging Book increases the spellbook's AC.

Dodging Book [Metamagic]
The wizard's spellbook gains a sort of sentience, dodging and weaving away from attacks of its own accord.
Prerequisites: Able to cast Floating Book.
Benefits: Add the wizard's caster level to the Spellbook's AC. Additionally, the wizard gains 1 use per day of Floating Book as a spell-like ability.
Attacks against the spellbook which miss but fall inside this bonus AC cause it to bob and weave distractingly. If the wizard is attempting to cast a spell from the book at the time, he must pass a concentration check equal to 12+his caster level.