Help me Build a Fey Knight - Heavy Armor - Light Hearted

[tieren]

I want to make something different to me and I never have tried a Charisma based character, and its been a long time since I tried something with heavy armor. I would also prefer to not be another human.

The character idea is a heavy armor knight, that loves nature and beauty and particularly music and dance. He grew up near an enchanted forest and has befriended some of the fey therein. As a young knight he performed some service for the forest for which the denizens are grateful and started inviting him to their parties which he enjoyed very much, particularly the music and dancing.

At these feasts he fell in love with a powerful fey leader and pledges his undying devotion and service. The fey lady does not reciprocate his love but appreciates his devotion and accepts him into her service and grants him boons for his pledge to defend the forest and her interests.

She then sends him on a mission (insert plot hook) where he meets up and joins the adventuring party, which he constantly regails with stories of his encounters with the fey, the legends they told at their feasts and his favorite songs.

Now - What class is he?

The two most obvious are an OoA Paladin and a Fey patron warlock. I really want the singing and storytelling to be part of his character, hes going to be much more boisterous and outgoing than my typical characters, so Bard could fit too.

I don't want to be a blastlock, and I won't have the ASi's to pick up many feats if I am getting Str and Cha to 20.

Some of the options I am considering:
1. Straight OoA paladin: just fluff in the duty to the fey lady and love of music and song with no mechanical benefit.
2. Paladin 7/warlock 13: start as a knight but gets more caster-y as his relationship with the fey increases over time, fluff in the music
3. Straight bladelock: feat into heavy armor (or compromise on medium), fluff in music
4. Paladin 11/warlock 3/bard 6 (or some other combination of all 3): would likely fluff the bardic magic and skills as still being granted by the fey relationship
5. Paladin 11/bard 9: fluffing the bardic levels as really being granted by the fey pact, which would only exist as fluff
6. Warlock 14/bard 6: maybe going valor bard for the knight stuff and pact of chain for a sprite familiar
7. Straight valor bard: fluffing following the OoA and having received most of my mojo from the fey

Does anyone have experience or insight into what they think would work best?

I am primarily considering half-elf, or more interestingly a green dragonborn (green dragons being forest related (alignment issues notwithstanding) and the ability to call him the "green knight").

[VoxRationis]

The character you have described is pretty much the quintessential Ancients paladin as described in the book. I don't see any reason why multiclassing would be necessary. A character can sing without being a bard.

[tieren]

The character you have described is pretty much the quintessential Ancients paladin as described in the book. I don't see any reason why multiclassing would be necessary. A character can sing without being a bard.

I understand, but I am looking for a deeper fey connection, both in the backstory and in the RP. Having a sprite familiar for example and learning spells like conjure fey or woodland beings, having effects like fey presence and misty escape, etc...

and I know I don't have to be a bard to sing, but if you're going to have a character singing a lot wouldn't working in some inspiration or something make sense?

[Nifft]

I would not add Warlock unless you want to blast.

I'd look into Lore Bard for Cutting Words, and reskin it as Fey Luck (or Favor of the Lady) -- it's not actually you helping, it's attention from your Lady.

Ancients Paladin 14 / Lore Bard 6 would get you more slots and some spell dipping.

Ancients Paladin 11 / Lore Bard 9 would get you even more slots and dipping.

Ancients Paladin 12 / Lore Bard 8 would get you an extra ASI or Feat, and you don't lose much from Bard (since Paladin 12 is one of the levels that boosts spell slots).

[Ninja_Prawn]

I agree with straight ancient paladin. Your bond with the fey lady is an RP hook, it doesn't mean you need to take levels in warlock.

[BladedWizard]

If you are not into min-maxing you could also consider the Wild Sorcerer (Cha based). It would grant lots of spell slot for your smite and it also has a "sprite" feel to it because of the wild magic.

OR

A druid, simply for the forest feel. However, it would not be Charisma based.

OR

Instead of paladin you go Ranger for the "Green Knight" effect. Ranger + Druid for a nice "Green Knight" combo.

I've never been a mix-maxing type of player. Always preferred the RP side of it. To me playing an almighty and powerful character with no chance of failure is boring. I really liked your idea of a character. As for the race I would also consider an elf... again if you don't like min-maxing.

[KorvinStarmast]

Why not begin Paladin, and at some point mix in a few levels of bard? Charisma aids both.

That way, you get the song and dance, but you also get to be the knight errant in service of the lady. Valor bard? Lore Bard? Which one feels best to you?

[Temperjoke]

Well, there is the Eldritch Knight option, it combines a little wizard magic with the fighter. You could pair that with the Fey Chainlock (to get a familiar), although it wouldn't have the direct usage of music like a Bard can be. It would give a mix of melee and magic with offensive/defensive coming from the Eldritch Knight, and the illusions, charms from the Fey Chainlock. It would be hard to optimize though, cause your optimal stats would be spread out.

[ZenBear]

Paladin 2/Bladelock X could work. You get heavy armor and Smites from Pally and all the Feylock goodies.

Also Paladin 2/Valor Bard X to incorporate the singing magic you want.

[tieren]

Why not begin Paladin, and at some point mix in a few levels of bard? Charisma aids both.

That way, you get the song and dance, but you also get to be the knight errant in service of the lady. Valor bard? Lore Bard? Which one feels best to you?

I am definitely thinking he'll start as a paladin. It fits the story that his love of the light and beauty led him to the fey. Mechanically it also is the best way to get the heavy armor without feat investment.

So really I guess the options come down to straight paladin, fluffing the fey pact and music, or multiclassing in bard or warlock or both to address some of those elements.

I do not want to min-max, but I don't want to be a hindrance to my group either. I don't want to become a blastlock in part because then I have a hard time justifying the need for all the armor. I am thinking I'll probably sword and board (won't have feat space for polearm master or GWM anyway).

I didn't want to mention it because it is so sub-optimal I thought I would be ridiculed, but what I would really like is to also be small (gnome or halfling). Something about a heavy armored small knight appeals to me, especially one who is light hearted with a good sense of humor and a banjo on his knee. Was thinking perhaps I could talk the DM into letting him ride a giant wolf spider as an option from the find steed spell.

[ZenBear]

Halfling Paladin is great. Get a war dog or that giant spider you want and you can make good use of the mounted combat rules and Feat alongside your medium sized allies. Take proficiency in Performance and you have your musical theme covered.

[MinaBee]

The musician part sounds like it could easily be covered with an instrument proficiency, and maybe the Entertainer's background trait, if you feel that fits.

Since single-classed Paladin gets you 90% of what you want, but is missing a few key spells that you'd really like to round out the flavor of the class, why not talk to your DM about modifying the Oath of the Ancients domain spells?

Just see if there are any spells there that are like, not really doing it for you, and swap them out for some that are.

[tieren]

The musician part sounds like it could easily be covered with an instrument proficiency, and maybe the Entertainer's background trait, if you feel that fits.

Since single-classed Paladin gets you 90% of what you want, but is missing a few key spells that you'd really like to round out the flavor of the class, why not talk to your DM about modifying the Oath of the Ancients domain spells?

Just see if there are any spells there that are like, not really doing it for you, and swap them out for some that are.

Thank You!

I had not considered an entertainer background, that could be a really good way to bring in the performing without being a bard per se.

I am really feeling a dip in warlock fits the concept too well. Even if its just flavor stuff, like picking up mask of many faces and eldritch sight or something to keep the fey feel instead of optimizing a blaster. Chain lock for a sprite companion feels right to me.

[Inevitability]

You can try going full bard, and picking up paladin-y spells (find steed, smites) with Magical Secrets.

[tieren]

Halfling Paladin is great. Get a war dog or that giant spider you want and you can make good use of the mounted combat rules and Feat alongside your medium sized allies. Take proficiency in Performance and you have your musical theme covered.

I agree its great thematically, I just worry if my team will be upset if I can't get Str and Cha to 20 by the time we're doing high level stuff. And I'll need so many boosts to stats it will be hard to get mounted combatant.

[tieren]

You can try going full bard, and picking up paladin-y spells (find steed, smites) with Magical Secrets.

That would mean valor bard which would mean less magical secrets, and to get to the heavy armor would still take a feat and I would still need to boost Cha for casting and strength for fighting (going Dex and lighter armor doesn't match the concept I am going for).

Although I have been thinking about the other poster's suggestion of going eldritch knight for the armor/fighting stuff. If I took EK to 8 it would result in a net gain of ASI's, so I could then put 12 levels in bard, go college of lore and pick up some paladin or even warlock spells. With 6 ASi's I could get a halfling to 20 Cha and 20 Str and have one left for mounted combatant. (we use the standard array)

[Alikat]

I had a thread with a similar theme a while ago:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?429670-Making-the-Green-Knight

I decided on full warlock fey bladelock, using feats to get heavy armor.

[tieren]

I had a thread with a similar theme a while ago:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?429670-Making-the-Green-Knight

I decided on full warlock fey bladelock, using feats to get heavy armor.

Big difference is you were starting two feats ahead, with one from your DM and one from race. My last character was variant human and I want to mix it up and my DM isn't going to hand any out. I just can't get a straight bladelock to heavy armor and have any chance of maxing the casting and fighting stats.

It also doesn't mesh well enough with the backstory, I want him to have already been a knight before he pledges to the fey. Its just fluff but I feel the relationship would be better if he comes into it bringing something to the table on his own rather than everything being given to him by the patron. I want it to be more like an oath of fealty and less like selling his soul.

[Fighting_Ferret]

Forest Gnome would be a flavourful choice if you want to be a small race. Elf is solid for medium size.

I'd go paladin Oath of the Ancients, since you want to be a green knight, and this just fits. Valour Bard would be MY very close second choice, due to being highly mailable to your concept. Less of a knight, but the romantic ideals of falling in love and pledging service make sense, as do the telling of stories and regaling your party with these stories. I think Warlock and Cleric (Trickery Domain) would be my next two choices. Basically What do you want to prioritize about your back story into the class functionality. Music = Bard, Knight = Paladin, Pact = Warlock the rest of the non-core stuff can be multi-classed in, if you wish, or fluffed.

Look at Ritual Caster or Magic Initiate and Lucky for feats if you want to have a little magic to go with level 2 paladin, or to add in cantrips without multi-classing. Going bard, try Inspired Leader, or Lucky, Actor, or maybe ever medium armor master.

For backgrounds, look to entertainer for musical proficiencies or even outlander grants one musical instrument... your DM might be willing to even count singing as a musical proficiency.

If you are looking to multi-class, what do you rely want to spotlight on... music or the fey connection. Warlocks are driven by their never ending desire for knowledge and power, and even if the Arch Fey pact makes some sense, I'm not sure if the Paladin's motivations match up with that. You could definitely role play it, but I'd see all the one class first and then a full switch over to the other. Bard makes sense, by sharing CHA as a casting stat, Being musically flavoured, wanting to be a hero like the songs and stories they tell, and mostly specializing in enchantments and illusions. Either college would do, Valour making the most sense, but losing a lot of it's abilities to duplicity, and Lore making less sense (you are a knight after all) but not losing anything due to duplicity.

[Yagyujubei]

so it's pretty clear you're really feeling the warlock MC. In that case I would go either 4 or 6 into warlock. 6 gets you another invocation, misty retreat, 3rd level spell slots and 2 more spells known in exchange for an ASI and undying sentinel.

see if you can't get your DM to allow patron spells to be separate from other spells known like with paladins Oath spells. It's not overpowered since you still have so few spell slots but opens up your choices at least a little.

for spells I think:
1st: hex, armor of Ag, charm person, sleep, and faerie fire are the top contenders.
2nd: hold person, mirror image, invisibility, misty step
3rd: hypnotic pattern, major image, fly, dispel magic, blink

[tieren]

I guess the critical question I need answered is how important is maxing both stats for a melee based charisma character?

I've typically done single primary class builds before (play a wizard and stack int, play a fighter and stack str, play an archer and stack dex, etc...). Now I am looking to get 2 stats to 20 and it doesn't leave much room for feats or losing ASI's to multiclassing.

Would it be game ruining if I never got Cha or Str above 18? If I can't land a hit I can't put smite damage on it.

[Yagyujubei]

I guess the critical question I need answered is how important is maxing both stats for a melee based charisma character?

I've typically done single primary class builds before (play a wizard and stack int, play a fighter and stack str, play an archer and stack dex, etc...). Now I am looking to get 2 stats to 20 and it doesn't leave much room for feats or losing ASI's to multiclassing.

Would it be game ruining if I never got Cha or Str above 18? If I can't land a hit I can't put smite damage on it.

how are you doing stats? standard array?

[tieren]

Yes, standard array

[MadBear]

So really I guess the options come down to straight paladin, fluffing the fey pact and music, or multiclassing in bard or warlock or both to address some of those elements.

While I definitely think mixing either some bard or warlock could work, just keep in mind that the Paladin already gets a bunch of supernatural abilities and spells, and it isn't defined where that comes from. Maybe in your case, the paladin's supernatural abilities and spells are coming from the Fey, and he gets better gifts as she blesses him more and more.

[DanyBallon]

I guess the critical question I need answered is how important is maxing both stats for a melee based charisma character?

I've typically done single primary class builds before (play a wizard and stack int, play a fighter and stack str, play an archer and stack dex, etc...). Now I am looking to get 2 stats to 20 and it doesn't leave much room for feats or losing ASI's to multiclassing.

Would it be game ruining if I never got Cha or Str above 18? If I can't land a hit I can't put smite damage on it.

In my opinion, the diffence between a 18 and a 20 is only +1, also keep your stat to 18 or lower let you a chance to find a magical item that would let boost to 19 (I know, there's no difference between 18 and 19).

A entertainer gnome eldritch knight could be an interesting character to fit your background. I also like the idea of a trickery domain cleric.

[tieren]

While I definitely think mixing either some bard or warlock could work, just keep in mind that the Paladin already gets a bunch of supernatural abilities and spells, and it isn't defined where that comes from. Maybe in your case, the paladin's supernatural abilities and spells are coming from the Fey, and he gets better gifts as she blesses him more and more.

That's actually very insightful and an approach I hadn't considered. The pledge could come at his level 3 such that all the oath of ancient abilities I could fluff as pact boons.

[Garanvir]

I guess the critical question I need answered is how important is maxing both stats for a melee based charisma character?

I've typically done single primary class builds before (play a wizard and stack int, play a fighter and stack str, play an archer and stack dex, etc...). Now I am looking to get 2 stats to 20 and it doesn't leave much room for feats or losing ASI's to multiclassing.

Would it be game ruining if I never got Cha or Str above 18? If I can't land a hit I can't put smite damage on it.

IIRC, Lore bards and Tome-locks can both get a charisma based version of Shillelagh so if you multiclassed into one of them then you only really need 15 Strength (or 13 if you are willing to settle for chainmail, or even 8 if you are willing to take a movement penalty or be a dwarf).

[tieren]

Shillelagh isn't a terrible idea, I believe it limits me to club or quarterstaff. I wanted to sword and shield and I am not sure if my DM would let me get away with shield and staff. He might if I fluff it like a gnome paladin is jousting with the staff like a small lance from the back of his spider steed. Whether he'd let me polearm master with it like that is another question.

[Garanvir]

Shillelagh isn't a terrible idea, I believe it limits me to club or quarterstaff. I wanted to sword and shield and I am not sure if my DM would let me get away with shield and staff. He might if I fluff it like a gnome paladin is jousting with the staff like a small lance from the back of his spider steed. Whether he'd let me polearm master with it like that is another question.

Yes I was just thinking it would let you use Charisma to attack, and actually assuming you would go club+shield rather than staff (not factoring in the potential staff+shield polearm master shenanigans).

(again IIRC) in addition to allowing you to make melee attacks with the casting stat, doesn't Shillelagh also bump the damage die up to d8 (same as a long sword wielded one handed, though damage type would still be bludgeoning rather than slashing).

If so you could re-fluff Shillelagh as
"Through the grace of the Lady, the ordinary cudgel in your hand transforms into the form of a fey knight's sword, still crafted of wood but infused with the strength of steel"

or some such... would be especially compatible with a Fey Tome-lock build (which I believe would also grant access to Shillelagh faster than lore bard)

and other than the occasional case where slashing vs. bludgeoning matters, mechanically equivalent to using a long sword one handed

[Flashy]

(again IIRC) in addition to allowing you to make melee attacks with the casting stat, doesn't Shillelagh also bump the damage die up to d8 (same as a long sword wielded one handed, though damage type would still be bludgeoning rather than slashing).

You do remember correctly. It also makes the weapon count as magical if you're in the sort of game where that matters.

[Yagyujubei]

well if you go half elf and have 15,14,13,12,10,8 you can start with 16,16,14,12,10,8 and with 4 ASI's you could get both str and cha to 20. it would be sad to miss out on feats though, some of them are well worth it.

[tieren]

well if you go half elf and have 15,14,13,12,10,8 you can start with 16,16,14,12,10,8 and with 4 ASI's you could get both str and cha to 20. it would be sad to miss out on feats though, some of them are well worth it.

That's the problem exactly. With 2 stats to max the choice of race is extremely limited, especially if you wanted any feats before level 19.

A gnome Paladin couldn't even make it with no feats at all.

[tieren]

I've been working on the concept some and this is what I have so far:

Forest Gnome using Oath of the Ancients Pally and Fey patron Warlock
Paladin 12 / warlock 8 or bard 4/Paladin 8/warlock 8

Will wear heavy armor and shield and wield a quaterstaff, much in the fashion of a lance most of the time.

Will take tome pact to pick up shillelagh so can attack with just a high charisma, minimizing need to boost str with ASI's.

Will primarily be a ranged blaster with eldritch blast, will use mobility of medium mount (mastiff or giant wolf spider) and things like misty step to get behind enemy lines and disrupt enemy casters (looking at mage slayer). Most casting will be illusions, buffs, debuffs, and control.

Can reposition enemies with repelling blast and thorn whip.

Will refluff arms of hadar to be a more natural vine whip type attack.

[SharkForce]

I've been working on the concept some and this is what I have so far:

Forest Gnome using Oath of the Ancients Pally and Fey patron Warlock
Paladin 12 / warlock 8 or bard 4/Paladin 8/warlock 8

Will wear heavy armor and shield and wield a quaterstaff, much in the fashion of a lance most of the time.

Will take tome pact to pick up shillelagh so can attack with just a high charisma, minimizing need to boost str with ASI's.

Will primarily be a ranged blaster with eldritch blast, will use mobility of medium mount (mastiff or giant wolf spider) and things like misty step to get behind enemy lines and disrupt enemy casters (looking at mage slayer). Most casting will be illusions, buffs, debuffs, and control.

Can reposition enemies with repelling blast and thorn whip.

Will refluff arms of hadar to be a more natural vine whip type attack.

what exactly do you need help with? looks like you've got a fairly good idea what you're doing already.

[Temperjoke]

what exactly do you need help with? looks like you've got a fairly good idea what you're doing already.

This was an update on a post from several months ago :)

Thanks for sharing with us what you finally ended up going with!

[tieren]

Actually, now I'm working on feats. I'll get the normal 5, 2 will go to charisma, and one will be warcaster.

That leaves 2. I like heavy armor master, mage slayer, pole arm master, shield master, dungeon delver, spell sniper, or resilient con.

Any thoughts?

[djreynolds]

That's the question, min/maxing. But I like the paladin and bard, that is cool.

Now cleric of knowledge could be cool, or nature. Wild Magic sorcerer, which could be seen as you know, is a good choice as well and may give you what you want and a ranged presence as well with cantrips.

But the forest gnome is very cool, warcaster will let you attack with eldritch blast as an AoO and give you advantage on concentration checks. Resilient con is nice but paladin 6 will help with saves. I find mage slayer is melee characters primarily. HAM is nice but if you are not in melee all the time it may be wasted. As a warlock please try and grab the shield spell, +5 AC as a reaction maybe more benefical than HAM. Spell sniper is okay too, but this guy will need more ASI than feats. Maxing charisma and con might be more worth it. Jack of all trades works better with higher ability scores.

Cool build

[tieren]

But the forest gnome is very cool, warcaster will let you attack with eldritch blast as an AoO and give you advantage on concentration checks. Resilient con is nice but paladin 6 will help with saves. I find mage slayer is melee characters primarily. HAM is nice but if you are not in melee all the time it may be wasted. As a warlock please try and grab the shield spell, +5 AC as a reaction maybe more benefical than HAM. Spell sniper is okay too, but this guy will need more ASI than feats. Maxing charisma and con might be more worth it. Jack of all trades works better with higher ability scores.

Cool build

I consider warcaster essential, it gives the AoO, but more importantly it lets me do somatic components with my hands full (will already have holy symbol on shield), and gives advantage on Con saves to keep concentration (which my aura will give me a boost on too).

I am really inclined towards HAM, in part because of the +1 str that comes with it, I could save some point buy points only putting 14 in str and take the feat to qualify for plate closer to when I am ready to buy it and get the damage resistance to boot. Combined I think the effect would be better than the +2 str of an ASI since I'll be using Cha as my attack stat anyway.

Spell sniper I like just because of the disregarding cover, but it feels a little meta-gamey to me.

Polearm master would be cool with hex running, assuming my DM lets me get the BA attack while one handing the quarterstaff. Whacking stuff with the stick will be for nova damage when I want to smite instead of the at will EB's.

Mage slayer really fits the style to me. I am going to be a fey knight, empowered by my oath to the light and devotion to my archfey lady. I will have great saves from my aura and racials. I will have awesome mobility from my mount and misty step/ misty escape. Heck I have an aura for damage resistance to all magic. Being able to pop into the enemy back lines and wreck some havoc on their casters while protected by my heavy armor, resistances and saves, seems like a great calling for the little guy.

Mounted Combatant feels like a feat tax to me. I don't feel like it brings anything interesting other than survivability of my poor mount, which if it dies I can always summon another with find steed. I am taking protection fighting style to impose disadvantage if their range try to take out our range, and I can use it to impose disadvantage on any attacks directed at my mount so I don't know if redirecting the attack to me too would be worth it.