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View Full Version : Half Elf and Half Orc, revisited (A work in progress)



ocato
2007-05-10, 07:45 PM
So, I think it is fairly common to believe that the Half Elf and Half Orc are both somewhat weaker than the other core classes. I kicked this around the d20 forum a little and got a lot of different responses that were mostly very kind and constructive (gotta love those guys! :smallbiggrin: )

So, First, I will post their stats as is, then I will post my opinion on changing them to make them a little more uh... user-friendly. Stuff that has changed will be bolded and stuff that I take out with get the slash so you recognize it as misisng. And yes, some of you already adore these classes and will vehemently oppose my meddling. To you, I apologize in advance.

HALF-ELVES
• Medium: As Medium creatures, half-elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
• Half-elf base land speed is 30 feet.
• Immunity to sleep spells and similar magical effects, and a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects.
• Low-Light Vision: A half-elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
• +1 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
• +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks.
• Elven Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-elf is considered an elf.
• Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic).
• Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass half-elf takes an experience point penalty, her highest-level class does not count.

Honestly, that is all fine and dandy to me. I think what they need though, is a little stat toying, and a little more of that human versatility. So let's try again

HALF-ELVES
• -2 CON, +2 CHA
• Medium: As Medium creatures, half-elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
• Half-elf base land speed is 30 feet.
• Immunity to sleep spells and similar magical effects, and a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects.
• Low-Light Vision: A half-elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
• +1 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
• +1 racial bonus on Diplomacy and +2 racial bonus on Gather Information checks.
• Dual Heritage: For all effects related to race, a half-elf can be considered either an elf or a human. The more advantageous race can apply to any given effect, and a Half-elf may be considered both an Elf and a Human simultaneously for different effects. Half-elves are also susceptable to any specialized attacks or damage (ie, bane weapons or the favored enemy skill) focused on both humans and elves.
• Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic).
• Skillfully Versatile: Half Elves start with an additional 4 skill points
• Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass half-elf takes an experience point penalty, her highest-level class does not count.

I gave them the elven Constitution hit thinking that half-elves wouldn't be much buffer than an elf, and gave them Charisma to accentuate their being between two cultures flavor. Half-elves are probably seen as having the most attractive features of both races and since they deal with both, probably are pretty good at talking their way out of trouble, as well as negotiating, bluffing, etc. I didn't want to overdo it so I took a little of their elven keen senses and immunity to sleep (these half-elves sleep just like regular humans) to try to keep them from getting all the goods and none of the bads. I really wanted to give them a bonus feat from a specialized list but it'd be hard to make such a list or to justify it. It'd be way too much.



HALF-ORCS
• +2 Strength, –2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma.
A half-orc’s starting Intelligence score is always at least 3. If this adjustment would lower the character’s score to 1 or 2, his score is nevertheless 3.
• Medium: As Medium creatures, half-orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
• Half-orc base land speed is 30 feet.
• Darkvision: Half-orcs (and orcs) can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and half-orcs can function just fine with no light at all.
• Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc.
• Automatic Languages: Common and Orc. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, and Abyssal.
• Favored Class: Barbarian. A multiclass half-orc’s barbarian class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty.

Yes, Half-Orcs are dumb and ugly, but this appears to be all about their weaknesses and not really about their strengths. Battle. Let's try again.

HALF-ORCS
• +2 Strength, –2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma.
A half-orc’s starting Intelligence score is always at least 3. If this adjustment would lower the character’s score to 1 or 2, his score is nevertheless 3.
• Medium: As Medium creatures, half-orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
• Half-orc base land speed is 30 feet.
• Survivors: Half-orcs are adept at surviving harsh terrain and dealing with other local monsterous humanoids. They gain a +2 racial bonus to Survival and Intimidate skills.
• Darkvision: Half-orcs (and orcs) can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and half-orcs can function just fine with no light at all.
• Dual Heritage: For all effects related to race, a half-orc can be considered either an orc or a human. The more advantageous race can apply to any given effect, and a Half-orc may be considered both an Orc and a Human simultaneously for different effects. Half-orcs are also susceptable to any specialized attacks or damage (ie, bane weapons or the favored enemy skill) focused on both humans and orcs.
• Orc Weapon Mastery: Half-orcs my treat the Orc Double Axe and the Spiked Chain as Martial Weapons.
• War Bred: Half-orcs get a +1 to attack rolls when wielding a weapon with two hands.
• Anti-Social: Half-orcs are typically not adept at social interaction. Half-orcs receive a -2 racial penalty to Diplomacy and Gather Information checks.
• Automatic Languages: Common and Orc. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, and Abyssal.
• Favored Class: Barbarian. A multiclass half-orc’s barbarian class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty.

Might've overdone it here. I was going to remove their charisma loss, but figured I'd give them a bonus to Intimidate to even it out. The bonus to survival also adds to their barbarian nature. I gave them some weapon proficiencies (I will get a lot of flames for giving them the spiked chain, I know.) but I think the +1 to 2-handers and access to some good weapons will help them a bit. Fighters and Barbarians get marginalized at higher levels anyway, so this little buff will give them some sugar early on. I figured the dumb and ugly motiff fit the loss to will saves in some situations without an actual wisdom loss. This is their human side and orc side balancing a little. I almost gave them a higher base speed and access to a bonus feat from the fighter list (excluding fighter only feats) but thought better of it.

*dons flame-retardant suit* So, as I said, this is a work in progress. Thoughts?

EDIT: Dual-heritage idea from Indon.

Indon
2007-05-10, 08:53 PM
A couple suggestions regarding the elf:

I'd like to propose a rewrite for Elven Blood that seems to be more in-keeping with your intent:


Dual Heritage: For all effects related to race, a half-elf can be considered either an elf or a human. The more advantageous race can apply to any given effect, and a Half-elf may be considered both an Elf and a Human simultaneously for different effects.

This has a couple effects:
-Half-elves could take both elf or human paragon levels, or even both.
-Half-elves can qualify for feats, prestige classes, etc. as if they were either human or elven, whichever works out for them, and could even hold an elf-only prestige class and a human-only prestige class simultaneously.
-Half-elves never need to make a UMD check to emulate the elf or human races (unless, arguably, the magic item in some way specifically targets half-elves).

All in all, this would be a change that significantly increases the Half-elf's potential, but unfortunately at the same time it would be vulnerable to min-maxing (there's no doubt a combination of elf-only and human-only stuff out there that rocks ridiculously hard).

Meanwhile, the skill point thing strikes me as quite powerful; it's pretty much half of a human's racial modifications. (A level 20 human gets 23 skill points and one feat from being human; your half-elf would get 21 skill points plus all the other elven stuff)

Fax Celestis
2007-05-10, 09:12 PM
I'm with Indon on the dual-heritage thing, for both half-elves and half-orcs.

ocato
2007-05-10, 09:18 PM
I'll probably up the starter skill points and nix the increase by levels to keep it sorta balanced. As for Dual Heritage, I like that idea, but I too fear the min-maxers. Imagine a world where a min-maxer says "Yes, now my half-elf will rule the world!"

How about the rest of it? Any major complaints?

Lord Iames Osari
2007-05-10, 09:25 PM
Personally? I would just give them both the Human and Elf/Orc subtypes.

Here's how to adjudicate it: If the effect specifies Orc/Elf-ness in the positive - i.e., "Prerequisite: Elf" or "This item only functions for orcs" - they count as being an Elf or Orc for that effect. Note that this includes the bane weapon quality and similar effects. They also can use human-only items, take damage from human-bane weapons, and are affected by effects targeting non-elves/orcs.

ocato
2007-05-10, 09:28 PM
I will definately edit my post to reflect that they are meant to take damage from both kinds of bane weapons. I'm actually hearing very little "ZOMG overpowered" (I was a little afraid of overdoing it). Would you allow these races in your games?

Lord Iames Osari
2007-05-10, 09:36 PM
I would if I didn't already have my own versions. :smallwink:

Khoran
2007-05-10, 09:42 PM
I will definately edit my post to reflect that they are meant to take damage from both kinds of bane weapons. I'm actually hearing very little "ZOMG overpowered" (I was a little afraid of overdoing it). Would you allow these races in your games?

Probobly. I might drop the orc weapon familiarity though unless they were raised around orcs.

Drider
2007-05-10, 09:54 PM
this may sound like a noob question, but would favored enemy bonuses stack? would a full-blood orc ranger who has a +2 bonus vs humans, +4 from elfs, would it stack to get half elves for 6?

Lord Iames Osari
2007-05-10, 10:00 PM
this may sound like a noob question, but would favored enemy bonuses stack? would a full-blood orc ranger who has a +2 bonus vs humans, +4 from elfs, would it stack to get half elves for 6?

That's a good question. I would personally make the ranger go with the better bonus.

ocato
2007-05-10, 10:01 PM
That is a legitimate question that I do not have an immediate response to.

ocato
2007-05-11, 12:12 AM
If a specific creature falls into more than one category of favored enemy, the ranger’s bonuses do not stack; he simply uses whichever bonus is higher.

My research bears fruit. Thanks for asking that, it could've caused problems.

TheOOB
2007-05-11, 02:35 AM
Hmm, apart from making half-elves count as humans as well as elves, I gave them the ability to buy ranks in cross-class skills with 1 point and called it good(I don't allow the similar feat from races of destiny).

Half-Orcs I removed the CHA penalty from, and gave them the dwarf-like ability to move full speed in medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load. All of a sudden they became a lot more attractive to fighter and cleric types.

Tethoril
2007-05-11, 09:17 AM
So it depends on what other classes you allow, but I would be careful of giving a racial bonus to Charisma (or wisdom or int, for that matter). To be honest, if a half-elf with a +2 Cha is available, it puts a sorceror of any other race at a significant disadvantage. It boosts both the number of spells AND the DC to resist the spells. I've found that any time a stat boost serves double duty like that it, it can get out of hand

If there are a lot of stat-boosting items in your world, or if there are other non-PHB races that also give bonuses to primary spellcasting abilities, then it might not be such an issue.

For similar reasons, I would NOT remove the two penalties to half-orcs. It is difficult for non-fighter classes to play them, but the +2 Str in so powerful for a fighter or barbarian, that I've seen many half-orcs played. The thing is, strength affects what a fighter does and it affects it twice--both to hit AND damage.

ocato
2007-05-11, 09:52 AM
Well, I really wanted to avoid just giving them other race's abilities and going "Yay! Balanced!" I think the bonus to strength will make their carrying capacity not end up a big issue. I must admit I am somewhat tempted to add it though. It's very fitting and taking into consideration that I wanted to give them a bonus to move speed, that's a fairly elegant compromise. However, Dwarves have a movement speed of 20 in everything, so technically for a medium creature they are somewhat weakened. I think I'll pass to avoid over doing it.

As for the +2 to Charisma, I sorta knew this would be an issue of discontent. Honestly, Charisma is a flavor stat in about 80% of classes. Wisdom and Int have a bigger all around hunk of use. Very few classes completely shun Wisdom and/or Intellect, even if just to keep their will saves or skill points at a reasonable level. Honestly, this half-elf will probably be more attractive to Bards, Sorcerers, and maybe Rogues. Might even get a few Cleric or Paladin recruits. I think most people will see you lose the most universally useful stat (CON) and gain the least universally useful stat (CHA) and pass over it. The Half-elf is currently a hide out for talky classes, I guess I figured I'd toss them some love while maybe opening the class up a little more. Yes, Bards and Sorcerers stand to get a slight boost in power from this but, well, A. Sorcerer is a fairly unpopular class because of unfavorable comparisons between it and wizard and B. Bard spell casting isn't powerful enough for this to get too out of hand. I mean, would a Half-elf bard or sorcerer be pretty good? Hell yes. Is it insanely over powered or dangerous? I don't think. Hopefully I will soon bring these into a game and do some real play-testing. If anyone else likes them and wants to try them in a game, please let me know how it turns out, what other people think, etc. This is a work in progress. Thank you everyone who has contributed.

brian c
2007-05-11, 10:32 AM
So it depends on what other classes you allow, but I would be careful of giving a racial bonus to Charisma (or wisdom or int, for that matter). To be honest, if a half-elf with a +2 Cha is available, it puts a sorceror of any other race at a significant disadvantage. It boosts both the number of spells AND the DC to resist the spells. I've found that any time a stat boost serves double duty like that it, it can get out of hand

*COUGH*GREYELF*COUGH*

I'm greatly in favor of removing the half-orc wisdom penalty, as it hurts their spot and survival checks for people who should be decent at that. I really do think that you're buffing up half-elf too much; besides the obvious Bard and Sorcerer benefits, a Dimplomacy build would be terrific on this even without going full-on min-maxing or whatever. Bonus to a cha-based skill, and a racial bonus to cha? That's just too easy. I really don't see where the +2 Cha is coming from, because that would make them more charismatic than humans or elves. The diplomacy racial bonus is explainable because it's learned, but the Cha adjustment seems out of place to me. I'd like to see half-elves with either no ability adjustments or ones similar to elves (+Dex).

Fax Celestis
2007-05-11, 10:55 AM
Question: War Bred: is "wielding weapons in two hands" in reference to THF, TWF, or both?

ocato
2007-05-11, 11:01 AM
Two Handed Weapon

Fax Celestis
2007-05-11, 11:03 AM
Two Handed Weapon

You should probably clear that up a bit then, because as written it applies to both.

ocato
2007-05-11, 11:17 AM
I didn't even think of that, thanks. I hope that's clearer.

Khoran
2007-05-11, 11:27 AM
I'm greatly in favor of removing the half-orc wisdom penalty, as it hurts their spot and survival checks for people who should be decent at that. I really do think that you're buffing up half-elf too much; besides the obvious Bard and Sorcerer benefits, a Dimplomacy build would be terrific on this even without going full-on min-maxing or whatever. Bonus to a cha-based skill, and a racial bonus to cha? That's just too easy. I really don't see where the +2 Cha is coming from, because that would make them more charismatic than humans or elves. The diplomacy racial bonus is explainable because it's learned, but the Cha adjustment seems out of place to me. I'd like to see half-elves with either no ability adjustments or ones similar to elves (+Dex).

Half-Orcs don't have a Wisdom Penalty. They have Int and Cha, but their Wis is unaffected. Also, as for the Half Elf haivng a +2 Cha out of nowhere, well, by the rules they get +2 Diplomacy "Out of Nowhere". Humans don't have it, Elves don't have it, why should a mix between the two have it. It's because the Half-Elves are for whatever reason more likable and have stronger personalities then most Humans or Elves (Possibly from a need to be liked and accepted, I don't know.) Currently, that Force of Personality comes from their natural skill at Diplomacy. However, basically what's gone on here is that ocato expanded on that likeable personality and the force behind it, and made it an ability score. Also, why would you give them +Dex? That would make them no different then Elves for racial abilities, and I think that Half-Elves should have different abilities then their parents.

ocato
2007-05-11, 11:32 AM
I did and still am wrestling with whether to remove the bonus to diplomacy after adding a charisma modifier. Actually I think I will reduce the diplomacy buff to +1 (keeping gather information at +2) so that there is no net gain or loss on that front from a standard half-elf. That way my Diplomobrothers won't be slighted and it doesn't get to be excessive.

brian c
2007-05-11, 12:23 PM
Half-Orcs don't have a Wisdom Penalty. They have Int and Cha, but their Wis is unaffected. Also, as for the Half Elf haivng a +2 Cha out of nowhere, well, by the rules they get +2 Diplomacy "Out of Nowhere". Humans don't have it, Elves don't have it, why should a mix between the two have it. It's because the Half-Elves are for whatever reason more likable and have stronger personalities then most Humans or Elves (Possibly from a need to be liked and accepted, I don't know.) Currently, that Force of Personality comes from their natural skill at Diplomacy. However, basically what's gone on here is that ocato expanded on that likeable personality and the force behind it, and made it an ability score. Also, why would you give them +Dex? That would make them no different then Elves for racial abilities, and I think that Half-Elves should have different abilities then their parents.

My mistake about the wisdom penalty.

Diplomacy isn't "coming from nowhere" because the explanation is that being a half-breed makes them better at working with humans and with elves because of tolerance. In the real world, multiracial or multiethnic people often (I know not always, don't want to get into a big argument about this) are good communicators and get along well with people because of the tolerance they have from their own background. It makes sense to think of Half-Elves that way, but I don't think that they should have a bonus to charisma.

The way I have Half-Elves work is that they're the same race as the mother, although they may look different (human with an elf father might have pointy ears, etc).

Fax Celestis
2007-05-11, 12:49 PM
Interesting. Now, Half-Orc rangers with double weapons are teh rox.

EDIT: Orc Double Axe as martial, Favored Enemy, War Bred, Strength bonus, and TWF feats for free. Sweet.

I mean, it's not broken, but damn is it nifty.

Khoran
2007-05-11, 01:21 PM
My mistake about the wisdom penalty.

Diplomacy isn't "coming from nowhere" because the explanation is that being a half-breed makes them better at working with humans and with elves because of tolerance. In the real world, multiracial or multiethnic people often (I know not always, don't want to get into a big argument about this) are good communicators and get along well with people because of the tolerance they have from their own background. It makes sense to think of Half-Elves that way, but I don't think that they should have a bonus to charisma.

The way I have Half-Elves work is that they're the same race as the mother, although they may look different (human with an elf father might have pointy ears, etc).
Being able to accept and tolerate different people is fine and all, but the good communication skill can express itself in multiple ways. This could include being more charismatic then your average person or elf. You've learned how to pick your words and tone carefully, use body language and to know what respects to you. All aspects of the Diplomacy skill, also all aspects of Charisma (It's more then just pretty. Remember, Charisma is both a mental and physical stat at the same time.) So, it could easily be reflected in a Charisma Bonus in place of or in addition to a bonus to diplomacy. From what it sounds like, Half Elves are exposed to a lot of people warmly and learn how to properly act and present themselves around other people, which sounds like a Charisma boost to me. I mean, lets look at the other side of the spectrum; the Half-Orc is both unattractive and are normally shunned where a Half-Elf might be welcome due to their Orcish heratige. Due to this, Half-Orcs get less friendly contact with other people, and don't learn these social skills, thus resulting as them coming off as rough and uncharming, combined with their normal lack of pretty, their -2 to Charisma.

ocato
2007-05-11, 05:12 PM
Interesting. Now, Half-Orc rangers with double weapons are teh rox.

EDIT: Orc Double Axe as martial, Favored Enemy, War Bred, Strength bonus, and TWF feats for free. Sweet.

I mean, it's not broken, but damn is it nifty.

That is the best review so far. Not broken, but nifty. Now Half-orc seems like less of a 'meh' race, and that was the goal.

As for the Charisma, I really feel that it reflects my vision of the Half-elf and it is apparently at least somewhat liked. Dropping the diplomacy bonus to balance it it pretty solid as well. I really like the way this turned out and I thank you all for your opinions and contributions. Now the challenging part is getting people to play these variants and tell us how they went. I might try to get a Half-elf Bard into a PbP game sometime soon if I can find a DM willing to give it a shot. So please, if you like these, talk to your DMs and give em a try. We'll learn some things and maybe they'll catch on.

mauslin
2007-05-11, 07:45 PM
*COUGH*GREYELF*COUGH*

I'm greatly in favor of removing the half-orc wisdom penalty, as it hurts their spot and survival checks for people who should be decent at that. I really do think that you're buffing up half-elf too much; besides the obvious Bard and Sorcerer benefits, a Dimplomacy build would be terrific on this even without going full-on min-maxing or whatever. Bonus to a cha-based skill, and a racial bonus to cha? That's just too easy. I really don't see where the +2 Cha is coming from, because that would make them more charismatic than humans or elves. The diplomacy racial bonus is explainable because it's learned, but the Cha adjustment seems out of place to me. I'd like to see half-elves with either no ability adjustments or ones similar to elves (+Dex).

Well, I know one way to argue this.
Humans find elves fasinating because of their grace and long-lived wisdom. Elves find humans fasinating because of their vitality and their connection to the here and now.

Arguably the half elf combines these two forms of attraction. Both ethereal and earthy, they become more facinating then either of their parents were.

I hope this makes sense :smalltongue:

Dryad
2007-05-11, 08:55 PM
I've played several charismatic characters. Charisma is a good stat! Bluff is powerfull, diplomacy aswell. Don't underestimate Charisma!

Also: Half-orcs are actually the one race I have never seen played. Nobody I know will ever play one. Why? Well.. The charisma penalty is doable, but the intelligence penalty... Skill points, yes, but a fighter really wants an intelligence score of 13+. For bonus feats. A barbarian usually favors intelligence over wisdom, because what makes a barbarian a good class is it's skills combined with it's ferocious combat style. A barbarian has one thing over a fighter: Barbarians can go everywhere, anyhow. They make average scouts, where a warrior makes a near blind/deaf sir clankalot. They can keep a party alive when there's no ranger or druid to do the job. Hell, every barb I've seen played was a human with track and either power attack or run at first level. (I've played a dwarf with only power attack at first, but hey... His intelligence score was better than his constitution score, and only marginally less than his strength score.)
What makes a barbarian alluring is her quick wits. Nobody wants to hang out with some stupid wench that can only hit people hard.

However, the revised half orc has this war-bred thing that makes her a lot alluring. For barbarians, yes, because they don't need the intelligence score for all her bonus feats, but especially for clerics of Kord and combat-based druids.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-05-11, 09:00 PM
Intelligence has nothing to do with bonus feats... what are you talking about?

ocato
2007-05-11, 09:13 PM
Might want to reread that, she was refering to the loss of skill points. The feat talk was a reason that Barbarians she likes to play/has seen played are typically human.

Edit: I believe the last sentence is a typo, I may be wrong.

Dryad
2007-05-11, 09:16 PM
No.. But the expretise tree is a very good one, very adaptable, and you need intelligence to gain access to it. (13+) so as a fighter, half-orc isn't that promising. As a barbarian, you don't get all those bonus feats, so you can simply enter the power attack tree, and go for some fancy things on the side, like run, dash, weapon focus, two weapon fighting, improved critical and the like. But as a fighter, access to the expertise tree really pays off.
Edit: So a fighter needs int for her feats.
A barb needs int for her skills.

ocato
2007-05-11, 09:31 PM
Duh. Sorry I missed that.

Lasada1984
2007-05-11, 11:51 PM
In my game, I did virtually the same thing with Half-Elves, but gave them a free skill-focus feat at first level, instead of the extra skill points. I like my version a bit better then the extra skill points, because the later is almost identical to the humans bonus. True one can argue the extra feat is similar as well, but limiting it to skill focus weakens it slightly. I think the +2 to charisma works well with the idea that "Half-Elves" take the best of both races, and the weakened con makes sense that are still fragile like one side.

For Half-Orcs, I gave them +1 natural armor ac, and a +2 to fort saves. I think thats fits with them being tough and natural resilient. I think weakening their will saves even more is excessive, and think the abilities should be a bit more generally, not limited to specific combat types.

About the dual heritage thing...Him, not sure how that works in practice, as both mixed races are usually raised by one side or the other, and come to adapt that lifestyle more....

Lord Iames Osari
2007-05-12, 12:29 AM
About the dual heritage thing...Him, not sure how that works in practice, as both mixed races are usually raised by one side or the other, and come to adapt that lifestyle more....

Subtypes aren't about culture, they're about biology - or what passes for it in D&D, anyway.

Sergeantbrother
2007-05-12, 01:42 AM
Personally, I would not be happy with any alternative half orc design that didn't equalize their attribute bonuses and penalties. My favorite is +2 Str and -2 Int.

I have heard the arguments that Str is better than other attributes for fighters, because it adds two bonuses. I am unconvinved by this argument. Especially considering that a Cha penalty means pretty much nothing to a fighter or barbarian. If +2 Str in too powerful for a fighter, -2 Cha isn't going to affect that balance, fighters have no use for Charisma anyway. What the Cha penalty does isn't balancing the race, it is pigeonholing it. Its not affecting the balance of a barbarian or fighter half orc, their power is unaffected by charisma - its making it so that those are the only classes that half orcs can play. If you took away the Chasrima penalty you open up bards, sorcerers, and paladins for orcs and make clerics, druids, and rogues more attractive.

Khoran
2007-05-12, 07:03 AM
Personally, I would not be happy with any alternative half orc design that didn't equalize their attribute bonuses and penalties. My favorite is +2 Str and -2 Int.

I have heard the arguments that Str is better than other attributes for fighters, because it adds two bonuses. I am unconvinved by this argument. Especially considering that a Cha penalty means pretty much nothing to a fighter or barbarian. If +2 Str in too powerful for a fighter, -2 Cha isn't going to affect that balance, fighters have no use for Charisma anyway. What the Cha penalty does isn't balancing the race, it is pigeonholing it. Its not affecting the balance of a barbarian or fighter half orc, their power is unaffected by charisma - its making it so that those are the only classes that half orcs can play. If you took away the Chasrima penalty you open up bards, sorcerers, and paladins for orcs and make clerics, druids, and rogues more attractive.
By RAW, Strength is worth 2 mental stats. Without it, Half Orcs become a +1 LA. Stupid rule, but thems the brakes. Also, Half Orcs are not Pigeon Holed into being only Fighter or Barbarians. A Half Orc can make a mean Cleric.

TO_Incognito
2007-05-12, 07:22 AM
Orc Weapon Mastery: Half-orcs my treat the Orc Double Axe and the Spiked Chain as Martial Weapons.

Please remove the Spiked Chain from this feature; building munchkining into a core race just seems foolish and backwards to me.

Other than that, I do like the dual-heritage feature. I would support finding a way to get rid of that Half-orc -2 Cha as well.


By RAW, Strength is worth 2 mental stats. Without it, Half Orcs become a +1 LA. Stupid rule, but thems the brakes.

Where is this rule written?

Khoran
2007-05-12, 07:36 AM
Where is this rule written?
It's in the DMG on page 173. There is a chart under the "Creating New Races" section.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-05-12, 10:29 AM
It's in the DMG on page 173. There is a chart under the "Creating New Races" section.

And that rule is bollocks, as evidenced by the fact that not even Wizards follows it.

ocato
2007-05-12, 10:31 AM
1. Honestly, I think I kicked that chart in the DMG out the window when I gave Half-elves the +2 CHA -2 CON. However, I do believe that half-orcs are a bit more geared towards being ugly and difficult to deal with (unpopular among most of the core races because of their orcish blood). However, I do agree that that should not limit them as much, especially since CHA is pretty much the bar keeping Half-orcs from playing some classes. So maybe give them even Charisma and a -2 to Diplomacy. I'd probably also consider a +2 to Sense Motive to balance that out, since if they can't deal with other races well, they'd be unwilling to trust them.

2. Skill Focus is a bit more powerful than extra skill points. 4 extra skill points means a new skill or two at a slower rate of increase. Skill focus helps make a Half-Elf Bard able to Diplomawreck any situation at a low level. I think you can get a L1 Half-Elf with that set up to have a +13 to Diplomacy if they start with 18 (20) Charisma. I realize that without it that L1 still has a +10, but Diplomacy is their forte. I just don't want to let it get out of hand too easily.

3. The spiked chain set up is not nearly as godly as people think, and I honestly don't see it being any more troublesome than a mighty whip-dagger. I trust that DMs will guide their players into the right level of power for their campaign.


Check out Untrustworthy and One Track Mind, as well as the return of their charisma. I'm still playing with it, so give me your opinions.

Dryad
2007-05-12, 11:12 AM
I've seen a human bard, 2nd level, with a diplomacy bonus over 20. (Taking synergies in account.) Diplomacy gets so many synergies that if you really want a character with it as a main means of play, it will be broken anyway.
The feat grants a +3 bonus to one skill. However, the extra skill points grant extra ranks. Sure; you cannot get a skill higher than max rank, but you can spend skill points in extra skills.
If you'd grant the half elf this skill focus feat, I'd say make sure you exclude diplomacy from the list of choices. Because a half elf already gets a bonus to it.

Sergeantbrother
2007-05-12, 11:54 AM
By RAW, Strength is worth 2 mental stats. Without it, Half Orcs become a +1 LA. Stupid rule, but thems the brakes. Also, Half Orcs are not Pigeon Holed into being only Fighter or Barbarians. A Half Orc can make a mean Cleric.

It not like RAW is some kind of holy text that cannot be altered by mere mortals. This thread is about changing RAW, so that being the case I don't see why we have to keep the dumb rule about Str being worth two other attributes.

ocato
2007-05-12, 05:14 PM
I took out the stuff I put in this morning because it was getting a little excessive. I think I like the way things are looking at this point, though the loss of the charisma penalty is sort of sticking in my head. I may end up adding a personality penalty or something again later. Please feel free to give your opinion.

MeklorIlavator
2007-06-07, 02:36 PM
Just as an aside, the 2-for-1 thing with strength is bullocks, as shown by the Wood and Wild elves. In fact, Wild Elves get +2 STR and only -2 Int, so their is precedent.

Callix
2007-06-07, 03:55 PM
Very nice... and you haven't abandoned the rules on the CHA, CON stuff. That is the one specific example of a set of bonuses/penalties that, while underpowered, is acceptable. Also, this fix rocks as a bard, which is something I think half-elves should rock at. Wherever they go, they're different. Why not use it?
Re the spiked chain, chain + whirlwind attack is seriously broken... I'll just attack 24 people in one roll... but the -Int makes it really hard for a half-orc to get the prereq's, and any other fighter just burns a feat on proficiency. This fix makes them awesome barbarians, with even more of the traditional barbarian weaknesses (Will saves). Put simply: I like!