Potent Spellcasting and Cantrips

[Starchild7309]

So I am a light cleric rapidly approaching 8th level. At that level I get potent spell casting. I might be missing something here though. It allows me to ad my +WIS as damage for cantrips only. I was looking, but it seems as though there is only one cantrip for cleric that does damage? Is that correct? All the other domains are getting once a turn add 1d8 per hit and light clerics get +WIS (in my case will be a +4) on a save or nothing spell?

Am I not reading it correct or is it just a sucky feature of the light domain? Are there any other damage dealing cantrips?

[Starsinger]

Unfortunately, yes. There is only Sacred Flame for Clerics. (Which, incidentally means that Spell Sniper offers you to take a Cantrip off the Cleric or Bard list for no reason, since Bards also don't have a damaging cantrip that offers an attack roll)

Basically, Light (and Knowledge) Clerics are assumed to be "casters" instead of melee units, and Sacred Flame is their "at-will" attack. You're definitely going to be after home brew if you want more valid cleric cantrip attacks, since by the wording of the feature, you can't even take Magic Initiate: Druid to get more wisdom based attack option cantrips like Produce Flame or Thorn Whip

[Ninja_Prawn]

What's wrong with +4 (later +5) to your Sacred Flame damage? And I'm sure there'll be more spells in future supplements (even if EE didn't have anything for clerics).

Personally, I would allow Magic Initiate spells to count. It's not RAW, but it's not unbalancing - it just gives you more options.

[Strill]

The damage of Sacred Flame with Potent Spellcasting is about the same as the damage the melee domains do with a melee attack + Divine Strike.

The fact that Sacred Flame is a "save or nothing" spell doesn't make it bad. Melee attacks don't do any damage on a miss either.

So yeah, Sacred Flame is a pretty uninspiring attack, but it's still not bad.

[Kane0]

Lance of Faith! The game needs it!

[SharkForce]

strictly speaking, the cantrip a nature cleric gains would be a cleric cantrip as it is gained from a cleric class feature, even though it is chosen from the druid list.

so now you just need to find a way to get two cleric domains and you're good to go :P

[rollingForInit]

So I am a light cleric rapidly approaching 8th level. At that level I get potent spell casting. I might be missing something here though. It allows me to ad my +WIS as damage for cantrips only. I was looking, but it seems as though there is only one cantrip for cleric that does damage? Is that correct? All the other domains are getting once a turn add 1d8 per hit and light clerics get +WIS (in my case will be a +4) on a save or nothing spell?

Am I not reading it correct or is it just a sucky feature of the light domain? Are there any other damage dealing cantrips?

You get the same bonus as melee clerics get, basically. +1d8 averages on +4.5, which means before 20 Wis, you do slightly lower damage, but on 20 Wis you do slightly more. Sacred Flame is save or nothing, melee attacks are hit or miss. Sacred Flame is actually a good spell, because it deals a rarely resisted damage type, its got a decent range so it's safer than melee attacks, but if the need arises it can be cast in melee without disadvantage since it doesn't have an attack roll. Not to mention that Sacred Flame scales, so at later levels it can deal pretty respectable damage, while melee Clerics are left with 1 attack/round, unless they're War Domain Clerics, and even those have a limited use of more attacks.

So all in all, Sacred Flame is prett good, compared to 1 attack/round. It has range, a nice damage bonus average, and it scales.

[JellyPooga]

I was looking, but it seems as though there is only one cantrip for cleric that does damage?

Am I not reading it correct or is it just a sucky feature of the light domain? Are there any other damage dealing cantrips?


So all in all, Sacred Flame is pretty good, compared to 1 attack/round. It has range, a nice damage bonus average, and it scales.

It's also worth asking the question; what's your basis for comparison for "sucky"? As rollingForInit says, Sacred Flame is a fairly decent at-will attack which the Light Domain improves. Is it as good as a Warlocks Eldritch Blast? No, it's not. Nor is it as good as a Rogue Sneak Attack. On the other hand, you're a Cleric. If you wanted massive damage output, perhaps you should look at a different Class. Clerics are support casters, not massive DPR machines (as a rule).

[Ninja_Prawn]

Clerics are support casters, not massive DPR machines (as a rule).

...And if the OP wants DPR, well, the Light domain spells are pretty hot in that regard. For the 'laser cleric', Sacred Flame becomes an emergency backup / coup de grâce.

[JellyPooga]

the Light domain spells are pretty hot in that regard.

Heh, I saw what you did there! :smallbiggrin:

In all seriousness, though, a Light Cleric might have some nice direct damage spells on his Domain list, but he's no Sorcerer or Warlock if you really want magical DPR. I don't particularly disagree with your assessment though.

[Person_Man]

A couple of helpful notes on the Cleric:

At 3rd level clerics gain access to Spiritual Weapon. This spell is arguably the reason why Clerics do not get or need an uber at-will cantrip or the Extra Attack class feature. Spiritual Weapon is only a Bonus Action to cast and continue each turn, gives you one additional attack every round, uses your spellcasting Ability Score for attack and damage, and lasts for for 1 minute, without needing Concentration. By level 5-8ish you have enough spell slots to cast pretty much every combat if you want to. (Though there often isn't a reason to, since you get plenty of better non-damage dealing spell options).
At 5th level clerics gain access to Spirit Guardians, which provides additional damage and battlefield control each round (though it requires an Action + Concentration).
At 5th level level clerics gain access to Animate Dead, which is an easy way to fill lots of different roles, including increased damage output.
Light Cleric also gets blasty spells added to its list. If you can target 3+ allies with one Action, then your total damage output will likely be very high.
Potent Cantrip/Sacred Flame is really just a fallback Action that you use if your Str/Dex are mediocre or suck. It's not supposed to be on par with the attacks of non-full casters, because they don't get your awesome spells and large amount of spells per day.

[Starchild7309]

It's also worth asking the question; what's your basis for comparison for "sucky"? As rollingForInit says, Sacred Flame is a fairly decent at-will attack which the Light Domain improves.

I think you misunderstand. I like Sacred Flame...my problem is with Potent Spellcasting. By RAW, it is a minor bonus to damage for only one spell. The cleric has no other options for this 8th level ability.

To the argument that there will be more released, I realize this, but if you look at it in the big picture, 8th level, while not particularly high, is late enough that it should be something significant. I looked through and could not find any other abilities that were so limited for any other classes. Though, in fairness I should be happy I get anything at all as the Bard, like Cleric has a dead level at 7 and only gets the ability increase.

As a straight wisdom Cleric, other than spell casting I have few other options and perhaps its just a pet peeve that since I have no melee ability with a strength of 11 and little range ability with dex of 12 that I rely on sacred flame and it is my only option.

[Ninja_Prawn]

in the big picture, 8th level, while not particularly high, is late enough that it should be something significant.

On the other hand, super-big-picture, the highness of the level often doesn't correlate with the power of the ability. Some classes are front-loaded, others are end-loaded, and some strike a balance between the two.

8th is a cookie-cutter level for clerics. Melee domains get Divine Strike, caster domains get Potent Spellcasting. Most people adhere to that in their homebrew and I expect WotC will if/when they release more domains.

[JellyPooga]

I think you misunderstand. I like Sacred Flame...my problem is with Potent Spellcasting. By RAW, it is a minor bonus to damage for only one spell. The cleric has no other options for this 8th level ability.

Is Divine Strike, also granted at 8th, "sucky" because it only applies to weapon attacks? Paladins don't get the very similar (but admittedly better) ability of +1d8 damage to melee attacks until 11th. Evoker Wizards don't get to add Int to spell damage until 10th. Single Class Sorcerers don't get to add any Ability Score to spell damage...ever.

The only reason to consider yourself "gipped" by this ability is because the wording of the text doesn't spell out that it currently only applies to the one thematically appropriate (for the Domain in question) cantrip that it does.

Yes it's a minor bonus. No Cleric gets a major one from their Domain at that level. I'm not seeing a problem. You already get the ability to destroy CR:1 Undead and an ASI at that level; do you really expect to get something groundbreaking?

[Drackolus]

Don't forget, while a dex save is sucky if you're targeting rogues or something, 1d8 is about as good as it gets and radiant is as good as it gets. It's only one option, but it's a pretty damn decent one. Targets that it won't be useful against are rare, and you've got other options for them.

[Starsinger]

Also, since it's a saving throw and not a ranged attack, you can do it point blank without penalty.

[Inevitability]

Lance of Faith! The game needs it!

I think Guiding Bolt was meant to replace that.

[CNagy]

I think you misunderstand. I like Sacred Flame...my problem is with Potent Spellcasting. By RAW, it is a minor bonus to damage for only one spell. The cleric has no other options for this 8th level ability.

To the argument that there will be more released, I realize this, but if you look at it in the big picture, 8th level, while not particularly high, is late enough that it should be something significant. I looked through and could not find any other abilities that were so limited for any other classes. Though, in fairness I should be happy I get anything at all as the Bard, like Cleric has a dead level at 7 and only gets the ability increase.

As a straight wisdom Cleric, other than spell casting I have few other options and perhaps its just a pet peeve that since I have no melee ability with a strength of 11 and little range ability with dex of 12 that I rely on sacred flame and it is my only option.

Access to a higher level of spells constitutes a dead level trait now? Just how far are we going to expand the definition of that phrase?

[Starchild7309]

Access to a higher level of spells constitutes a dead level trait now? Just how far are we going to expand the definition of that phrase?

I apologize for that one. Overlooked that...my bad.

After having taken a step back and had a chance to play the Cleric a bit more since the last time I posted I would say that while I am still not impressed by potent spellcasting, I have found that part of my issue was that pre 5th level in the group i was in I was the only long rest dependent character, or at least the most dependent. Running HotDQ, prior to bumping past 5th into 6th level Light Cleric felt very underwhelming. Seeing this option for them that had only one use irked me as I was frustrated with a cleric that for him to shine at all had to blow out his bigger spells and then spent the rest of the day hobbling along with only sacred flame.

Part of it is the design of cleric, I am sure of that and in retrospect part of it is how the DM runs the campaign....almost like GOD MODE where this is no rest ever and every encounter is near death for everyone. Also, and i am having a hard time here with this, but having played strictly 3.x since it arrived, the new play style and role of Cleric is still something I am struggling to not compare to each other. Its like comparing a new g/f to an old one...its not fair to the new one. The old one might have been pretty bad ass at a lot of things, but she was a cheating skank and thats why I left her for the new one.

So goals for me...be more open minded about 5th, still learning it all, stop comparing my new game vs. the old, and pay more attention tot he details when I start to complain about something.

[Person_Man]

A lot of players new to 5E experience the confusion/frustration/difficulty/etc that you are currently experiencing. They look at a full caster class ability, compare it to other class abilities, and think it sucks.

But that's by design. 90% of the power for full casters is found in their spell list and (for most of them), the ability to prepare new spells every day, and then cast from that list spontaneously. So no matter what your DM is like, you can change your spells/tactics through trail and error until you find something that works for you. This is unlike every non-full caster, which are almost entirely locked into their build choices until they gain a level.

So the full caster class abilities are mostly "ribbons" (fluffy decorations) and minor benefits. If they weren't, then they would completely outshine non-full casters all of the time at mid-high levels, which was a terrible aspect of every previous non-4E version of the game.

In this particular case, it sounds like you have a DM who is being very rough on the entire party and ignoring the Rest guidelines for the game. So I suggest that you take a 1E/2E/Rogue-like mindset and avoid combat whenever possible. Find ways to solve plot points without combat. Don't be afraid to cast a Conjure spell or Illusion or whatever and then fall back or run away. Bargain with orcs instead of just murdering them. Have someone sneak in a steal the treasure and lead the enemies into an ambush rather then grinding through the dungeon. And so on. It can still be a very fun game. It would just be very unlike 3.X D&D.

[Kane0]

Your DM is indeed making your life hard. Even clerics need short rests, it recharges your Channel Divinity on top of regular Hit Dice healing so you need less spell power to do that.

You might want to consider talking it out with him if you feel like you have to ration your spells too much. Maybe he's having as hard a time getting used to 5e as you are.

[Tome]

I believe Starchild7309 mentioned playing through HotDQ. The lack of rests would be less the DM's fault and more the module's, HotDQ is somewhat notorious for that as I recall.

[poolio]

I think part of op's problem is that there's no way to get other cantrips to count as "cleric" cantrips, outside of homebrew, which just makes the feature feel a little less versatile,

But i agree that it's a completely fair and decent bonus to damage, cause as others have pointed out, lots of other classes don't get a bonus till later or even not at all.

[D.U.P.A.]

I think part of op's problem is that there's no way to get other cantrips to count as "cleric" cantrips, outside of homebrew, which just makes the feature feel a little less versatile,

But i agree that it's a completely fair and decent bonus to damage, cause as others have pointed out, lots of other classes don't get a bonus till later or even not at all.

Arcana domain can get two from Wizard spell list.

[MeeposFire]

Arcana domain can get two from Wizard spell list.

Also if you wanted to make a slight homebrew change you could choose to give nature clerics potent spell casting instead of divine strike and then you could add druid cantrips to the mix.

[Pex]

I think you misunderstand. I like Sacred Flame...my problem is with Potent Spellcasting. By RAW, it is a minor bonus to damage for only one spell. The cleric has no other options for this 8th level ability.

To the argument that there will be more released, I realize this, but if you look at it in the big picture, 8th level, while not particularly high, is late enough that it should be something significant. I looked through and could not find any other abilities that were so limited for any other classes. Though, in fairness I should be happy I get anything at all as the Bard, like Cleric has a dead level at 7 and only gets the ability increase.

As a straight wisdom Cleric, other than spell casting I have few other options and perhaps its just a pet peeve that since I have no melee ability with a strength of 11 and little range ability with dex of 12 that I rely on sacred flame and it is my only option.

Do keep in mind that Sacred Flame is radiant damage. The only creatures resistant or immune to it are the ones you're in theory aren't going to be fighting anyway because you're all on Team Good Guys. It's a reliable damage source. Another damage source with very low resistance is force. Only one creature is immune. That's the damage Spiritual Weapon does. At 8th level you can cast Spiritual Weapon as a bonus action and attack with it and cast Sacred Flame against the same target as your action. Next round you can use your Bonus Action to attack with the Spiritual Weapon and cast Sacred Flame. Sacred Flame is 2d8 + 4 radiant damage. Spiritual Weapon is 1d8 + 4 damage. With just one 2nd level spell slot from 60 ft away you're dealing a potential 3d8 + 8 damage of radiant and force every round of combat if you like. The best part? You could still add in a Concentration spell, either before you started the combo or instead of Sacred Flame one round after you had cast Spiritual Weapon. Spiritual Guardians is a good one to fight against foes who approach you within 15 ft because of all the damage you are doing from 60 ft away.

Yes, clerics only have Sacred Flame, but that only is not a problem.

[Addaran]

It does seems weird that they specify cantrips when there was just one (when the PHB was out) but it's probably just to be safe so that it would work on future cantrips (next EE-like book) or new domaine (arcane!). That way they don't have to make an errata and people won't complain that the ability is too narrow and penalize using the new cantrips instead of Sacred Flame.