Fun Combos for Dweomerkeeper?

[Palanan]

I'm planning to build a Dweomerkeeper at sixth level, just enough to enter the PrC, and I need five levels of arcane + divine.

But I've never really looked at DK before, and I have no idea what are considered the "best" entry classes. As it happens, I'm more interested in quirky fun than hardcore optimization, so I'd like to hear what combos would be offbeat yet effective. Bonus points if they lend themselves to a general mood of freedom and irrepressible song.

[Sagetim]

Well, with the Dragonmech campaign setting rules you can use a dweomerkeeper, solar simulacrums, and wish spamming in general to quickly assemble an animated city mech. Quickly being a relative term, the largest sized city mechs are supposed to take years even with thousands of workers to build and massive amounts of materials. But that is how I sprung a trap on a trap that the DM sprung on the players at the end of our shenanigans campaign this summer.

An army of level 15 elves with wyvern riders and mages oh my, all showing up to invade the human capital. And then it was there...with a glorious ghost sounding to have The Final Countdown play as the city mech descended from on high and opened up on the army with so many ballistas...but more than it's hundreds of ballista, it had over a thousand javelin racks. The nice ones. The ones that shoot 8 javelins per firing sequences, modified with a bit of magic so they self reloaded and could be fired every round. Not to mention the stomping to death of elves with giant city mech feets, and when they tried to climb it? buzz saws and lava walls cast on the legs. The city mech was fine, it's armor plating provided 100 hardness against any attack, and it was protected by a cl 40 resist elements for each of the main 5. And of course the lava walls were dispelled near the end of the fight by the person who cast them (my dweomerkeeper) so as to avoid setting the forest on fire.

Yeah...Elan Wizard/Dweomerkeeper/Halruaan Elder, with just enough Elder for circle magic. By that point he was level 18, which let him greatly accelerate his creation of solar simulacrums. 50 solar simulacrums for 50 wishes per day, and 3 wishes of his own per day without any xp cost snowballed really well into getting him a pile of dedicated wrights to assemble the city mech for him while he was busy wishing up piles of materials and, for a long while, piles and piles of adamantine and casting hardening on them (not once, not twice, but three times) so get the city's armor up.

Circle casting with simulacrums of himself let him really abuse circle magic too, since the sims had access to 5th level spell slots and didn't need them for anything most days. Thus, he could inflate his caster level up to 40 regularly.

I would suggest you carefully read supernatural spell and start looking through spell lists for spells that it can be applied to. Since it type changes the spell being cast to a supernatural ability, it no longer requires material components...or xp components. Just remember that if you abuse wishes too much, there are monsters from one of the monster manuals who will show up and try to kill you and use a wish spell to make it stick. That probably should have happened to my wizard, but the dm was too amused at the mech and the other players reaction to it (since they had no idea it was being made).

[Crake]

Well, with the Dragonmech campaign setting rules you can use a dweomerkeeper, solar simulacrums, and wish spamming in general to quickly assemble an animated city mech. Quickly being a relative term, the largest sized city mechs are supposed to take years even with thousands of workers to build and massive amounts of materials. But that is how I sprung a trap on a trap that the DM sprung on the players at the end of our shenanigans campaign this summer.

An army of level 15 elves with wyvern riders and mages oh my, all showing up to invade the human capital. And then it was there...with a glorious ghost sounding to have The Final Countdown play as the city mech descended from on high and opened up on the army with so many ballistas...but more than it's hundreds of ballista, it had over a thousand javelin racks. The nice ones. The ones that shoot 8 javelins per firing sequences, modified with a bit of magic so they self reloaded and could be fired every round. Not to mention the stomping to death of elves with giant city mech feets, and when they tried to climb it? buzz saws and lava walls cast on the legs. The city mech was fine, it's armor plating provided 100 hardness against any attack, and it was protected by a cl 40 resist elements for each of the main 5. And of course the lava walls were dispelled near the end of the fight by the person who cast them (my dweomerkeeper) so as to avoid setting the forest on fire.

Yeah...Elan Wizard/Dweomerkeeper/Halruaan Elder, with just enough Elder for circle magic. By that point he was level 18, which let him greatly accelerate his creation of solar simulacrums. 50 solar simulacrums for 50 wishes per day, and 3 wishes of his own per day without any xp cost snowballed really well into getting him a pile of dedicated wrights to assemble the city mech for him while he was busy wishing up piles of materials and, for a long while, piles and piles of adamantine and casting hardening on them (not once, not twice, but three times) so get the city's armor up.

Circle casting with simulacrums of himself let him really abuse circle magic too, since the sims had access to 5th level spell slots and didn't need them for anything most days. Thus, he could inflate his caster level up to 40 regularly.

And nobody in this army of elves was capable of casting disjunction? Really?

[Brova]

The best entry for Dweomerkeeper is Cleric. Specifically, Cleric of Mystra. Magic and Spell domains. Maybe Cloistered Cleric for an extra domain, maybe not. You'll need a metamagic feat (Extend Spell, because DMM: Persist) and an item creation feat. The item creation feat is open to a degree. The best ones are probably Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Magic Arms and Armor, but you need Scribe Scroll for the Hathran build that I consider optimal. Other than Cleric staple feats like Persist Spell, Divine Metamagic, and (because you worship Mystra) Initiate of Mystra, your other feats are totally open, unless you're going Hathran. Then you need some regional feat and Leadership. Also to be female. Anyway, the big deal is that Supernatural Spell is totally insane. Make every spell you want permanent, bootstrap your Cha to infinity, and generally abuse spells with costly components.

[Rebel7284]

Technically knowing Anyspell from the spell domain allows you to enter as a pure cleric. However, in case your DM deems that insufficient, Magical Training regional feat gives you arcane spellcasting in a more explicit manner.

[Sagetim]

And nobody in this army of elves was capable of casting disjunction? Really?

Apparently not? Besides, a city mech-f sized mech is literally like 1700 feet tall. It's called a city mech for a reason, and that reason is because it's city sized. Even if they had someone capable of casting disjunction, it wouldn't have been able to affect the city sized mech...because it wouldn't be able to encompass the city sized mech (the dragonmech rules actually have some sizing limitations on casting spells on big targets and what not, and a metamagic feat specifically so that you can combine spells to affect oversized targets). It was more of a hand wave situation with description and fun, rather than rolling out combat and using dice to decide the outcome anyway.

The real question to ask is 'why wasn't he murdered by inevitables for using so many damn wishes'? and the answer is 'the dm was amused by the city mech and the fact that it was being deployed in a not dragonmech campaign setting game'.

If you're going to clerical entry, I would go for the regional feat as your means of entry rather than trying to talk a DM into accepting that anyspell counts as being able to cast arcane spells. If nothing else, it shows that you are investing more in getting into the prestige class instead of trying to backdoor your way in with clever TO.

oh, also: any wizards that might have been able to try and disjunction the thing would have been shot to death before they could get in range to try and disjunction. Those ballista's were mean bastards (distance, ghost touch, multiple hundreds of foot range increments base).

[Palanan]

Let me clarify that I'm looking for suggestions on the first five levels before DK entry.

I should also reiterate that I'm not looking for things involving "shenanigans," "abuse," or "infinity."



The phrase "quirky fun" was used. Also "offbeat." Nothing involving giant city mechs.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) 5 is what you want to enter with, worshipping Mystra of course (it's her PrC after all). You must have the Magic domain, and it's generally best to take the Rune domain for Scribe Scroll to meet its magic item creation feat prerequisite. You can trade your free Knowledge domain from Cloistered Cleric for the Knowledge Devotion feat (CC), but that's entirely up to personal preference.

Take the feat Magical Training (PGtF) to gain the ability to cast a few 0-level arcane spells each day, thus meeting the arcane spellcasting prerequisite. This is a regional feat, so it must be taken at 1st level, and you must be either an Elf from Evereska or Evermeet, or a Human from Halruaa or Nimbral. Just go with a Halruaan Human and get a bonus feat.

You'll want Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, and Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell (CD), so you can buff your whole party with Mass Lesser Vigor (SC), Elation (BoED), and eventually Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (SC), and yourself with Divine Power, Ice Axe (SC), Stormrage (SC), etc., all for 24-hours at a time. You'll want to take two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (more flaws here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30)) if possible to start out with two extra feats.

You'll eventually want to take Initiate of Mystra (PGtF), which gives you access to certain additional spells and enables you to cast spells in Antimagic Field and in dead magic areas. It's also a good idea to get Power Attack at some point, since you can use it with Ice Axe and later with (DMM: Persistent) Wraithstrike (SC) from Anyspell (via the Spell domain or Initiate of Mystra), as well as (DMM: Persistent) Divine Power. Neither of those is all that useful until 9th+ level in most games.

If you happen to have a DM who feels the need to remove the PCs' magic as a means of 'challenging' the party, then there are two safeguards against this that you can take. The first is Initiate of Mystra above, the second is the feat Servant of the Fallen from Lost Empires of Faerun. This allows you to still be granted divine spells if you worship a dead god, and you can worship the old Mystra who died during the Time of Troubles (she's LN, so your alignment must be within one step of that). That way even if the DM kills off the current Mystra, destroying the Weave and turning the entire setting into a dead magic area, you'll still be able to cast spells thanks to Initiate of Mystra, and you'll still be granted Cleric spells thanks to Servant of the Fallen.

Your starting items should include a Reliquary Holy Symbol (MIC), a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend, and a Night Stick (LM). The Reliquary Holy Symbol gives you two additional daily uses of Turn Undead, and the Night Stick gives you four more, so you'll have 9+Cha daily uses of Turn Undead. If you took two flaws you can begin play with Extra Turning, giving you 13+Cha uses, so with Cha 12+ you'll be able to use DMM: Persistent twice each day. The Lesser Rod of Extend is for hour/level buffs like Luminous Armor (BoED), Delay Poison, Magic Vestment (which can target the armor effect of Luminous Armor), etc.

I would recommend picking up a level of Contemplative (CD) at 11th to gain an additional domain. A dip into Paragnostic Apostle (CC) for Mind Over Matter and Spatial Awareness will benefit your (Greater) Luminous Armor and Elation spells. You want to delay some of your Dweomerkeeper levels anyway so you can get higher level spells for your Mantle of Spells class feature.

[Rebel7284]

Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) 5 is what you want to enter with, worshipping Mystra of course (it's her PrC after all). You must have the Magic domain, and it's generally best to take the Rune domain for Scribe Scroll to meet its magic item creation feat prerequisite. You can trade your free Knowledge domain from Cloistered Cleric for the Knowledge Devotion feat (CC), but that's entirely up to personal preference.

Take the feat Magical Training (PGtF) to gain the ability to cast a few 0-level arcane spells each day, thus meeting the arcane spellcasting prerequisite. This is a regional feat, so it must be taken at 1st level, and you must be either an Elf from Evereska or Evermeet, or a Human from Halruaa or Nimbral. Just go with a Halruaan Human and get a bonus feat.

You'll want Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, and Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell (CD), so you can buff your whole party with Mass Lesser Vigor (SC), Elation (BoED), and eventually Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (SC), and yourself with Divine Power, Ice Axe (SC), Stormrage (SC), etc., all for 24-hours at a time. You'll want to take two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (more flaws here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30)) if possible to start out with two extra feats.

You'll eventually want to take Initiate of Mystra (PGtF), which gives you access to certain additional spells and enables you to cast spells in Antimagic Field and in dead magic areas. It's also a good idea to get Power Attack at some point, since you can use it with Ice Axe and later with (DMM: Persistent) Wraithstrike (SC) from Anyspell (via the Spell domain or Initiate of Mystra), as well as (DMM: Persistent) Divine Power. Neither of those is all that useful until 9th+ level in most games.

If you happen to have a DM who feels the need to remove the PCs' magic as a means of 'challenging' the party, then there are two safeguards against this that you can take. The first is Initiate of Mystra above, the second is the feat Servant of the Fallen from Lost Empires of Faerun. This allows you to still be granted divine spells if you worship a dead god, and you can worship the old Mystra who died during the Time of Troubles (she's LN, so your alignment must be within one step of that). That way even if the DM kills off the current Mystra, destroying the Weave and turning the entire setting into a dead magic area, you'll still be able to cast spells thanks to Initiate of Mystra, and you'll still be granted Cleric spells thanks to Servant of the Fallen.

Your starting items should include a Reliquary Holy Symbol (MIC), a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend, and a Night Stick (LM). The Reliquary Holy Symbol gives you two additional daily uses of Turn Undead, and the Night Stick gives you four more, so you'll have 9+Cha daily uses of Turn Undead. If you took two flaws you can begin play with Extra Turning, giving you 13+Cha uses, so with Cha 12+ you'll be able to use DMM: Persistent twice each day. The Lesser Rod of Extend is for hour/level buffs like Luminous Armor (BoED), Delay Poison, Magic Vestment (which can target the armor effect of Luminous Armor), etc.

I would recommend picking up a level of Contemplative (CD) at 11th to gain an additional domain. A dip into Paragnostic Apostle (CC) for Mind Over Matter and Spatial Awareness will benefit your (Greater) Luminous Armor and Elation spells. You want to delay some of your Dweomerkeeper levels anyway so you can get higher level spells for your Mantle of Spells class feature.

Some notes in general and on this post:
- Most of the advice is spot on.
- Cloistered Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 2 works even better as entry if you can work it into your backstory. A nice free domain and immunity to charm in exchange for a few skill points.
- Note you can exchange the Knowledge Domain for the Knowledge Devotion feat which, while still giving you ONE free knowledge, also gives you free attack and damage boosts.
- While Initiate of Mystra is indeed very nice, Servant of the Fallen seems like overkill. I never heard of a DM killing gods as a way to screw over the Cleric character. If, by some freak chance this does happen, you can take the feat then.
- Contemplative dip is indeed amazing.
- I am not a fan of Paragnostic Apostle. It gives you a couple of minor boosts in exchange for having to donate 10% of all your money to the Paragnostic Assembly... if your DM drops the membership fees, it becomes OK, but still not very exciting when you are missing more Dweomerkeeper abilities.
- I have heard people talk about delaying the last few levels of Dweomerkeeper in order to get 9th level spells into Mantle of Spells. Depending on how long the campaign goes, this may or may not be a good idea.

So my suggestion is Cloistered Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 2/Dwomerkeeper 5/Contemplative 1/Dweomerkeeper +5/X 4

If you are allowed to use Halruaan Elder, do that and stop Dweomerkeeper after 4. Both Circle Magic and Leadership are amazing.

[Bronk]

Some notes in general and on this post:
- Most of the advice is spot on.
- Cloistered Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 2 works even better as entry if you can work it into your backstory. A nice free domain and immunity to charm in exchange for a few skill points.
- Note you can exchange the Knowledge Domain for the Knowledge Devotion feat which, while still giving you ONE free knowledge, also gives you free attack and damage boosts.
- While Initiate of Mystra is indeed very nice, Servant of the Fallen seems like overkill. I never heard of a DM killing gods as a way to screw over the Cleric character. If, by some freak chance this does happen, you can take the feat then.
- Contemplative dip is indeed amazing.
- I am not a fan of Paragnostic Apostle. It gives you a couple of minor boosts in exchange for having to donate 10% of all your money to the Paragnostic Assembly... if your DM drops the membership fees, it becomes OK, but still not very exciting when you are missing more Dweomerkeeper abilities.
- I have heard people talk about delaying the last few levels of Dweomerkeeper in order to get 9th level spells into Mantle of Spells. Depending on how long the campaign goes, this may or may not be a good idea.

So my suggestion is Cloistered Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 2/Dwomerkeeper 5/Contemplative 1/Dweomerkeeper +5/X 4

If you are allowed to use Halruaan Elder, do that and stop Dweomerkeeper after 4. Both Circle Magic and Leadership are amazing.

I'd also add that the first level of contemplative can grant you the Envy Domain for access to limited wish and wish, and even if you do end up missing out on putting spells into your 'mantle of spells' ability, as long as you have access to a spell, you can eventually use you 'supernatural spell' ability to cast them instead.

[Melcar]

Since the Dweomer Keeper was origionally a Mystra specific PrC, a cloistered cleric of Mystra, with the Initiate of Mystra feat is a good call. You want to have some Wizard levels as well, I would say. Perhaps combine it with Incantatrix for some nice OP?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou
*snip*

I always enjoy Biff's mini-dissertations on individual builds. Even though this wasn't quite what I was looking for, it's worth a tip of the hat--not to mention archiving for future reference.

And I'm definitely thinking Cloistered Cleric for the divine side, although I'm still interested in at least a couple levels of an arcane class as well.


Originally Posted by Rebel7284
Cloistered Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 2 works even better as entry if you can work it into your backstory. A nice free domain and immunity to charm in exchange for a few skill points.

Even though Church Inquisitor doesn't work in this particular case, I'm definitely keeping this approach in mind, because it says "sinister zealot and scourge of the faithless" in spades.

Still looking for a couple levels of something arcane. Offbeat and a dash of quirky on the side, hold the OP shenanigans.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I always enjoy Biff's mini-dissertations on individual builds. Even though this wasn't quite what I was looking for, it's worth a tip of the hat--not to mention archiving for future reference.

And I'm definitely thinking Cloistered Cleric for the divine side, although I'm still interested in at least a couple levels of an arcane class as well.



Even though Church Inquisitor doesn't work in this particular case, I'm definitely keeping this approach in mind, because it says "sinister zealot and scourge of the faithless" in spades.

Still looking for a couple levels of something arcane. Offbeat and a dash of quirky on the side, hold the OP shenanigans.

You can get Anyspell and Greater Anyspell from Initiate of Mystra and/or the Spell domain via Contemplative to be able to prepare and cast arcane spells without losing Cleric spellcasting, and you can use the Magical Training feat to meet the arcane spellcasting prerequisite of Dweomerkeeper. Get the spellbook version of that feat, and per the Rules Compendium you'll be able to learn more spells and put them into that spellbook just as a Wizard does, which will give you a list of spells to prepare using (Greater) Anyspell.

[Nifft]

Another interesting digression for a Cloistered Cleric is being an Aasimar, and taking levels in Paragnostic Apostle at level 3, using your Daylight spell-like ability to qualify.

Even without the Knowledge Domain, there are some good choices, but I personally prefer to keep it. Persistent detect thoughts can cut through investigation plots faster than a greater magic chainsaw, even at mid-to-high levels, and the other spells can be good as well.

Some of the best options only require 5 ranks in a skill.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou
Cloistered Cleric 5 is what you want to enter with, worshipping Mystra of course…. You must have the Magic domain, and it's generally best to take the Rune domain for Scribe Scroll to meet its magic item creation feat prerequisite.

Well, this is certainly persuasive. Here's what I have so far:


Cloistered Cleric 3/Wizard 2/Dweomerkeeper 1

She'll be a cleric of Mystra with the Magic and Rune Domains, plus Knowledge as a bonus. She'll take the fighter-feat variant from p. 59 of Unearthed Arcana, and also the ACF from PHB2 that trades the familiar for a school-specific ability.

So, here are three questions:


1. As a human with one flaw, she should have five feats by sixth level, plus the bonus fighter feat. Most of Biff's feat suggestions are for higher levels; what would be good options for a sixth-level character?

(Note that Initiate of Mystra, while thematically obvious, won't be much use at this point, since she has no third-level domain slots for Anyspell.)

2. I hardly ever play wizards, so I'm at a loss for what school and spells would be appropriate here. Open to suggestions.

3. And what would be a good suggestion for the mantle spell?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Well, this is certainly persuasive. Here's what I have so far:


Cloistered Cleric 3/Wizard 2/Dweomerkeeper 1

She'll be a cleric of Mystra with the Magic and Rune Domains, plus Knowledge as a bonus. She'll take the fighter-feat variant from p. 59 of Unearthed Arcana, and also the ACF from PHB2 that trades the familiar for a school-specific ability.

So, here are three questions:


1. As a human with one flaw, she should have five feats by sixth level, plus the bonus fighter feat. Most of Biff's feat suggestions are for higher levels; what would be good options for a sixth-level character?

(Note that Initiate of Mystra, while thematically obvious, won't be much use at this point, since she has no third-level domain slots for Anyspell.)

2. I hardly ever play wizards, so I'm at a loss for what school and spells would be appropriate here. Open to suggestions.

3. And what would be a good suggestion for the mantle spell?

Switch it to Cloistered Cleric 4/ Wizard 1/ Dweomerkeeper 1, so you begin play with 3rd level Cleric spells. You can always make one or more of your Dweomerkeeper levels advance your Wizard casting if you want, that fourth Cloistered Cleric level gives more skill points, more hp, and better saves.

Your Fighter feat should almost certainly be Improved Initiative, though Power Attack is good if you want to go that route, and Improved Toughness is also an option. Since you're taking a Wizard level anyway, you could always get Scribe Scroll from that and replace your Rune domain with a different one.

Those five feats should be Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic: Persistent, Extra Turning, and maybe a reserve feat or Practiced Spellcaster: Wizard. With a Reliquary Holy Symbol, one Night Stick, and Cha 12 you can DMM: Persist two spells per day. At your current level you can buff the whole party with Mass Lesser Vigor (Fast Healing 1) and Elation (sanctified, +2 Str, +2 Dex, +5 ft. land speed, morale bonuses), or you can replace Elation with Ice Axe (melee touch attack deals 2d12+2 cold damage, can benefit from Power Attack).

Your Wizard spells prepared should include Color Spray, Benign Transposition, and Grease, possibly go Focused Specialist to get yet another 1st level spell slot. Your Magic domain will allow you to use wands, scrolls, and staffs of Wizard spells from your prohibited schools. I would get the spontaneous domain casting ACF for Cleric for the Magic domain, so you can prepare Cure Wounds spells in your domain slots, since you really don't have any good choices for domain spells with those domains. Note that the Magic domain gets Identify as a divine spell, and its costly material component is an arcane component so you don't have to provide it when casting that from your Cleric slots. It's also useful to be able to spontaneously cast Dispel Magic as well.

For your Mantle of Spells, you'll generally want to pick a Summon Monster spell for one of them just to always have summoning available (pick Summon Monster IV if you get the Summon Elemental reserve feat). Heal will definitely be one you want to add to your mantle, and Limited Wish from the Spell domain (via Contemplative) is also a good choice. I would pick Mass Resist Energy (SC) for your first mantle spell, it's good enough that it will still be useful even in the highest levels, and you never know when you'll need to make the whole party resistant to a given type of energy.

[Sagetim]

Well, this is certainly persuasive. Here's what I have so far:


Cloistered Cleric 3/Wizard 2/Dweomerkeeper 1

She'll be a cleric of Mystra with the Magic and Rune Domains, plus Knowledge as a bonus. She'll take the fighter-feat variant from p. 59 of Unearthed Arcana, and also the ACF from PHB2 that trades the familiar for a school-specific ability.

So, here are three questions:


1. As a human with one flaw, she should have five feats by sixth level, plus the bonus fighter feat. Most of Biff's feat suggestions are for higher levels; what would be good options for a sixth-level character?

(Note that Initiate of Mystra, while thematically obvious, won't be much use at this point, since she has no third-level domain slots for Anyspell.)

2. I hardly ever play wizards, so I'm at a loss for what school and spells would be appropriate here. Open to suggestions.

3. And what would be a good suggestion for the mantle spell?

Okay, so one downside/balance factor for dweomerkeeper is that it won't advance both of your caster classes at the same time. I think you can pick what class it advances per DK level, but they don't count for both like mystic theruge does (otherwise the class would be mystic theurge on crack and would be too OP by far). I would suggest going with abjuration specialization as a wizard, and picking up focused abjuration. Now, the main reason to do this in my mind would be dispel magic spamming, but to get to that point you'll have to get to wizard 5 at some point to get even 1 third level wizard spell slot.

As an aside, giant mecha shenanigans was fun. I don't expect anyone else to try it, but it's fun telling people about it :P. The build for that wizard at 20 would have been wizard 5/DK 2 (the dm allowing some feat shenanigans due to backstory to let his 6th level feat count for qualifying for the prestige class even though that's not how feats normally work, Planar Touchstone to get him divine casting)/ Halruaan Elder 5/DK 3-10. Just enough elder for circle magic and still space in the build for dweomerkeeper without dropping any wizard casting all the way to 20.

Back on the cleric/wizard front: If you go for a focused specialist route with your wizard casting, you can still do other casting as a cleric. And if the wizard spells are just there to supplement cleric stuff and be flavorful, then it might fit your concept better to be super focused as a wizard and a generalist as a cleric. In my mind, abjuration complements clerical casting best by providing protections and spellbreaking.

When I was hashing out the concept for that Dweomerkeeper I was looking over cleric spells that might be fun to supernatural spell up. I can't recall if Forbiddance works with the rules for supernatural spell, but it's a spiffy (if high level at 6th level) cleric spell to drop on places.

Limited Wish is something you'll want in your mantle to use with supernatural spell for various shenanigans (like casting spells with long casting times as a standard action through the limited wish spell. Hallow fits in, since it's a 5th level spell, raise dead also fits. This is where you'll want to be careful about your prohibited schools...but that's also a consideration for level 13, rather than for level 6). Also, you might not have to worry about prohibited schools if you're casting limited wish as a divine spell...since clerics don't have prohibited schools.

[Nifft]

IIRC there's a feat called Southern Magician which allows you to cast a Divine spell as Arcane (and vice-versa) a few times per day.

Is that a sneaky way into Dweomerkeeper, instead of dropping a level into Wizard?

[Endarire]

Sagetim: Is your GM open to new players who enjoy similar levels of optimization?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou
Switch it to Cloistered Cleric 4/ Wizard 1/ Dweomerkeeper 1, so you begin play with 3rd level Cleric spells. You can always make one or more of your Dweomerkeeper levels advance your Wizard casting if you want, that fourth Cloistered Cleric level gives more skill points, more hp, and better saves.

Must…resist…irresistable…logic…. :smalltongue:

Really, this is great, thanks.


Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou
Your Fighter feat should almost certainly be Improved Initiative, though Power Attack is good if you want to go that route, and Improved Toughness is also an option. Since you're taking a Wizard level anyway, you could always get Scribe Scroll from that and replace your Rune domain with a different one.

Improved Initiative was my first choice for the fighter feat, indeed.

As for the Rune domain, I actually prefer it to the other domains in Mystra's portfolio. Magic and Rune work for me, especially with the scholarly-cleric angle.


Originally Posted by Sagetim
And if the wizard spells are just there to supplement cleric stuff and be flavorful, then it might fit your concept better to be super focused as a wizard and a generalist as a cleric.

Good suggestion, thanks--I like that approach.


Originally Posted by Nifft
IIRC there's a feat called Southern Magician which allows you to cast a Divine spell as Arcane (and vice-versa) a few times per day.

Southern Magician is on p. 168 of Races of Faerûn, and without getting sidetracked into a separate debate, I'll just say the wording is open to interpretation. I don't read it the way many people do, so I won't be using it here.

Really, I'm perfectly happy with my level of wizard. I get a hat that says "Wizzard" and everything. :smalltongue:

[Grod_The_Giant]

Sha'ir (Dragon Magazine Compendium) is pretty explicitly both an arcane and a divine caster-- he can pop into Dweomerkeeper with no questions asked.

[Palanan]

In fact I looked at sha'ir, since it's exactly the sort of unusual, offbeat class I'm interested in.

But the approach of bargaining for spells doesn't sit well with me, the time limit on spell retention is strange, and the overall opinion seems to be that sha'ir is fairly meh. In the end it just didn't appeal.

[Grod_The_Giant]

In fact I looked at sha'ir, since it's exactly the sort of unusual, offbeat class I'm interested in.

But the approach of bargaining for spells doesn't sit well with me, the time limit on spell retention is strange, and the overall opinion seems to be that sha'ir is fairly meh. In the end it just didn't appeal.
Yeah, it's a weird mechanic. As far as I can tell, the expectation seems to be that you grab new spells every encounter-- mostly from your list of spells known, but with the odd spell outside it for special occasions.

[Palanan]

So, now that I'm following Biff's suggestion of CC 4/Wizard 1, there's the option of a third-level cleric spell for my first mantle of spells.

Any suggestions on what that spell should be? Something defensive might be nice, but I'm open to ideas.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

So, now that I'm following Biff's suggestion of CC 4/Wizard 1, there's the option of a third-level cleric spell for my first mantle of spells.

Any suggestions on what that spell should be? Something defensive might be nice, but I'm open to ideas.

Mass Resist Energy, Spell Compendium. It's good to have spontaneous access to it immediately, and it's still probably going to be useful at the highest levels.

[thethird]

In fact I looked at sha'ir, since it's exactly the sort of unusual, offbeat class I'm interested in.

But the approach of bargaining for spells doesn't sit well with me, the time limit on spell retention is strange, and the overall opinion seems to be that sha'ir is fairly meh. In the end it just didn't appeal.

Sha'ir shines in other builds, a sha'ir 3 / Durthan 1 with an acorn of far travel can make good use of those unasigned spell slots, and easily qualifies for geomancer to better get those slots filled, they also make really powerful sovereign speakers. Personally Sha'ir 3 / Durthan 1 / Geomancer 10 / Sovereign Speaker 5 / Contemplative 1 is pretty cool. But that's of course completely unrelated to the discusion about dweomerkeepers.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by thethird
Sha'ir shines in other builds, a sha'ir 3 / Durthan 1 with an acorn of far travel can make good use of those unasigned spell slots, and easily qualifies for geomancer to better get those slots filled….

I've never really looked at the Durthan before, and I'm guessing the one level in that class is to make use of the Place Magic class feature.

…which I just can't fit my head around. As best I understand it, a Durthan can drop any prepared spell, and use the slot to spontaneously cast any spell she knows? As long as she's in her homeland?

And then geomancer allows her to freely swap arcane and divine parameters for any spell? Seems like this is a better theurge than most theurges, if I'm following this correctly.

[Sagetim]

Mass Resist Energy, Spell Compendium. It's good to have spontaneous access to it immediately, and it's still probably going to be useful at the highest levels.

Oh, is that only third level for clerics? I'll second that. That's freaking great. You might want to grab a 5th cleric level before you get your second mantle of spells spell though, to try and eek out as high a level as you can from your selections.

Hell, Resist Energy is still useful at high level (since it scales up to 30 energy resistance) so the mass version is just delicious.

As for Geomancer, it's another one of those 'theurge that only advances one of the casting classes' prestige classes. It also has Drifts...which...if you like your character to look like a person (read: humanoid) then it's not the class for you. Gaining horns, claws, gills, fangs, wings, etc can be a really flavorful experience as a player...but as a character, it might be rather distressing to find yourself having to adjust all your pants to account for that new tail...or being driven out of town by an angry mob with torches because you have horns.

[Saintheart]

Southern Magician is on p. 168 of Races of Faerûn, and without getting sidetracked into a separate debate, I'll just say the wording is open to interpretation. I don't read it the way many people do, so I won't be using it here.

Well, if you're looking for something more explicit, try Alternate Source Spell (Dragon #325). Explicitly, prepare any arcane spell you know as a divine spell, and vice versa. Wonderful little feat for Runecaster, but that's another story entirely.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Sagetim
Oh, is that only third level for clerics? I'll second that. That's freaking great.

Yup, you guys have convinced me. Mass Resist Energy it is. :smalltongue:


Originally Posted by Saintheart
Well, if you're looking for something more explicit, try Alternat[iv]e Source Spell (Dragon #325). Explicitly, prepare any arcane spell you know as a divine spell, and vice versa.

I hadn't been focused on that approach, but I do appreciate the reference.



So, here's another couple of questions on the Dweomerkeeper:


1. It turns out she's quite fragile, and between low Dex and modest hit points she's more vulnerable than I'd expected. Apart from standbys like Mage Armor and Shield of Faith, are there any other spells, either arcane or divine, which would help her defensively?

2. Is it worth it to take Practiced Spellcaster to boost her arcane casting? I know that only improves her caster level, but combined with Extend Spell, would that be useful for spell duration?

3. And in general, what other arcane spells would be helpful here?

[thethird]

I've never really looked at the Durthan before, and I'm guessing the one level in that class is to make use of the Place Magic class feature.

…which I just can't fit my head around. As best I understand it, a Durthan can drop any prepared spell, and use the slot to spontaneously cast any spell she knows? As long as she's in her homeland?

No, it drops an "unasigned spell slot" guess what the sha'ir has a plenty? Also an acorn of far travel means always being in the homeland.


And then geomancer allows her to freely swap arcane and divine parameters for any spell? Seems like this is a better theurge than most theurges, if I'm following this correctly.

It reduces the time the genie familiar needs to search for divine spells greatly.

[Palanan]

So, given Cloistered Cleric 4/ Wizard 1/ Dweomerkeeper 1, is it worthwhile to take Practiced Spellcaster to improve her arcane CL?

And building on that, would Practiced Spellcaster + Extend Spell be worth it for first-level arcane spells? That would give her eight hours of Mage Armor, for instance, but not sure if that's worth two feats.

[DarkSonic1337]

1. Extended Mage armor would take a 2nd level slot, so you couldn't cast it with Wizard 1.
2. Assuming you bought a lesser rod of extend and applied it to your mage armor and had practiced spellcaster...it would actually last 10 hours not 8 (Practiced Spellcaster adds +4 to caster level, and you've got 1 from your level of wizard).
3. No, I don't think it'd be worth the feat. You could simply wear armor.

Divine casters don't have arcane spell failure, and the only penalty for wearing armor you're not proficient with is taking it's armor check penalty to your attack rolls. If said penalty is 0, then there's really no problem. Alternatively (and for many preferably), you could cast Luminous Armor or Greater Luminous Armor. They're sanctified spells (non-evil prepared casters can prepare and cast them, and Clerics can even spontaneously convert spells to them) that last hours/level, and give you armor bonuses while also giving opponents penalties to hit you in melee.