Conspiracy Theory: Solar Warden

[Cikomyr]

Reference Link (http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/1659192)

Just heard for the first time about this theory/rumor, and i found it pretty interesting.

(Btw, not sure where to post about Conspiracy Theories, but a contemporary Spesh Navy is probably better suited for Grumpy Technology)

I mean; dont get me wrong. For what i have seen, there are lots and lots of holes in that theory. Biggest of them all is the secrecy required for such a massive undertaking; the industrial complex required to have nearly half a hundred space ships, the crew required to manage them, and resupply them. All of this makes it darn unlikely to actually happen.

Still. There is something fascinating. I mean.. Why this conspiracy? Its not about "the government controls everything" or "the government is wishing us harm". Nor is it even about " aliens with higher understanding that could give us answers". All in all, i dont see a psychological need this conspiracy theory fulfill. It makes the US government looks good, but secretive.

Whatcha think? Just wondering what people though about the conspiracy theory itself, its potential feasability, and why people might want to believe it.

So this is a discussion about the (fictional?) Solar Wardeb program as much as it id about the conspiracy theory itself.

[Bulldog Psion]

My first random search results for it are studded with "Illuminati," "Bilderberg," "CIA assassination," "9/11," "AIDS truth," "HAARP," "New World Order," "Tesla," etc., so pardon me while I wheel this Everest-sized grain of salt in so that I can attempt to take it. :smallwink:

[Cikomyr]

Fair enough. I added a link to the best summarizing article i could find.

The gist of it is:

- the USA are running a Space Fleet since at least the 1980s, which then consisted of 8 large cylinder-shaped ship about twice as long as a football field, and 37 scout vessels
- the info comes from a guy who apparently hacked into the NASA network seeking info about UFO or repressed technologies
- also bits from Reagan's journals seems to point to a much larger space program that we are lead to believe

The deeper into the theory you dig, the stupider it gets. I saw allegations of servicemen going to the Martian colonies, for example. These ideas are so silly, id rather we keep to the base idea.

[Lord Torath]

There are way too many amateur astronomers out there for something like this to remain a secret for any amount of time. Ships that big would just be too visible, and there are too many people plying the night sky with their telescopes, binoculars, and cameras. Even if you only flew on the sun-side of the earth, someone would catch you (http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2015/09/02/photobomb_iss_transits_the_sun_by_thierry_legault. html).

[Broken Crown]

The part of this article that intrigues me the most is where the author says:

"Well there are a few people and many others that have tried hard to find out the truth...."

Who are these mysterious "others" who are not people?

What is the author's relationship with them? Wouldn't talking about them be a far bigger revelation than a bunch of poorly-substantiated speculation about secret government programs?

[Cikomyr]

I personally think the lynchpin of the theory is just the number of people that would have to be involved. Just the crews alone, thats thousands of peole right off the bat. And nobody ever babbled?


The part of this article that intrigues me the most is where the author says:

"Well there are a few people and many others that have tried hard to find out the truth...."

Who are these mysterious "others" who are not people?

What is the author's relationship with them? Wouldn't talking about them be a far bigger revelation than a bunch of poorly-substantiated speculation about secret government programs?

True. They always go for these pseudocryptic comment without exploring further.

[Grinner]

And nobody ever babbled?

Talking isn't the issue. Lots of people talk. Go to any conspiracy theory website, and you'll find plenty of people talking.

The issue is finding evidence to support their claims as well as convincing others of its authenticity.

[Cikomyr]

Talking isn't the issue. Lots of people talk. Go to any conspiracy theory website, and you'll find plenty of people talking.

The issue is finding evidence to support their claims as well as convincing others of its authenticity.

The reason these are so empty of belief is because they are isolated, kept anonymous or coming from very doubtful people.

We have had whistleblowers in the past with genuine information. Wouldnt there had been a similar thing with Solar Warden?

[Grinner]

The reason these are so empty of belief is because they are isolated, kept anonymous or coming from very doubtful people.

We have had whistleblowers in the past with genuine information. Wouldnt there had been a similar thing with Solar Warden?

I thought about that too, but I came to the conclusion that the difference between whistleblowers and conspiracy theorists is that whistleblowers give you something that is both plausible by convention and which the general public already suspects to be true at some level.

Essentially, "the government's spying on our telecommunications" gets the benefit of doubt, while "the government's running an intersolar defense force" does not.

[Ravens_cry]

I think it would be really cool, but . . . yeah, not buying it. If amateurs can track NRO (http://archive.wired.com/wired/archive/14.02/spy.html) satellites, I think something this big would show up like huge.

[Douglas]

Reading the mention in the OP's article of someone supposedly hacking into U.S. Space Command computers to get info on this, what immediately springs to mind for me (besides the possibility of a straight up hoax) is the computer security concept of a honeypot. The basic idea is to put an obvious target that's relatively easily hacked on your network, filled with fake junk designed to convince hackers that they've achieved whatever they were trying and don't need to go elsewhere. What if someone in security over there invented the Solar Warden idea just to fill the bait in a honeypot?

[Ravens_cry]

Reading the mention in the OP's article of someone supposedly hacking into U.S. Space Command computers to get info on this, what immediately springs to mind for me (besides the possibility of a straight up hoax) is the computer security concept of a honeypot. The basic idea is to put an obvious target that's relatively easily hacked on your network, filled with fake junk designed to convince hackers that they've achieved whatever they were trying and don't need to go elsewhere. What if someone in security over there invented the Solar Warden idea just to fill the bait in a honeypot?
Or maybe the person who made the claim has really brown eyes.

[Cikomyr]

Or maybe the person who made the claim has really brown eyes.

I dont get that reference

[Ravens_cry]

I dont get that reference

It's a sneaky way of referencing the phrase, "So full of human faeces their eyes are brown."

[georgie_leech]

I dont get that reference

Full (up to the eyes in fact) of s***.

[Cikomyr]

It's a sneaky way of referencing the phrase, "So full of human faeces their eyes are brown."

Oh. I see.

Well, i prefer to not dismiss someone right off the bat, but instead find the holes in the overall logic.

Except, obviously, those just wanting to draw viewers on their website.

Hence why id be more willing to believe the honeypot theory.

[Ravens_cry]

Oh. I see.

Well, i prefer to not dismiss someone right off the bat, but instead find the holes in the overall logic.

Except, obviously, those just wanting to draw viewers on their website.

Hence why id be more willing to believe the honeypot theory.
Perhaps, though I've known conspiracy theorists to lie to advance their cause, ('porthole' my well padded tush, Bart Sibrel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKkpfYUhkig)) so I am somewhat less than amiable to such generosity. Still, it is within the realm of possibility.

[cobaltstarfire]

It's kind of a neat conspiracy theory... which is a nice change for how conspiracy theories make me feel (some weird mix of anger, exasperation and confusion depending on the conspiracy theory)

It'd be neat if it turned out to be true, but if it was, what's the point of keeping it and the technology away from the public? I could imagine plausible(ish?) scenarios, but that doesn't mean much in the absence of proof other than "they" found evidence or whatever. Most of them sound more like interesting sci-fi stories in my head...

The Honey Pot scenario Douglas mentioned sounds like the most realistic explanation given my scant knowledge of the world both secret and public. I barely even know what a honey pot is beyond what Douglas described, and that it's mentioned in spy related media as some sort of trap to lure the enemy.

[Kantaki]

:smallbiggrin:Is it a bad thing that my first thought was: „Of course the USA have a space fleet, they need it to fight the Nazis.”:smallbiggrin:

Yes, there are people who believe that the Nazis build space ships (flying saucers). And bases on the moon and near the poles. Conspiracy theorist are funny.

[Cikomyr]

That would explain why we only started seeing UFOs after WW2, the transplanetary spaceships werr their backup plan!!!

[Grinner]

That would explain why we only started seeing UFOs after WW2, the transplanetary spaceships werr their backup plan!!!

The moon Nazis are coming!!!

[HandofShadows]

The moon Nazis are coming!!!

You didn't know that the movie "Iron Sky" was a documentary? :smallwink:

[comicshorse]

I thought I recognized the name of the hacker as there was a lot of interest in attempts to extradite him from England to America
He also claims to have found evidence of UFO technology, anti-gravity and free energy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_McKinnon

I'd particularly read the 'Statements to the Media' section

[Closet_Skeleton]

I thought I recognized the name of the hacker as there was a lot of interest in attempts to extradite him from England to America
He also claims to have found evidence of UFO technology, anti-gravity and free energy


I think I've read an interview with that poor guy.

He was looking for information about UFOs so of course he saw it. He had no actual education or experience with government or aerospace work so everything that looked weird to him was interpreted through his UFO nut lens.

[Rockphed]

The moon Nazis are coming!!!

Not after their astounding defeat at the hands of N. Armstrong and B. Aldrin in the 60s. (Even in retirement they pack quite the punches (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=buzz+aldrin+punches+conspirac y+theorist)) These days the real threat is from the People's Democratic Republic of Barsoom (A.k.a. Red Red Planet), though they are currently having problems with troop morale. It seems that the last few recruitment drives recruited ten times as many men as women, leaving the force with a 75%, 25% split.

[Zrak]

Given that a lot of this hinges on terms McKinnon saw references to in classified databases, I think the most likely explanation is that someone got creative storing sensitive information and while McKinnon probably did stumble on something he wasn't meant to know, it was something totally mundane he wasn't meant to know. The severity of the breach espoused in extradition attempts belies the theory of a honey pot, while the lack of a giant space fleet hanging out around Earth belies the theory that there is a giant space fleet hanging out around Earth. I'd assume what happened was analogous to my cousin seeing my grandmother's "alien registration card" when we were kids and being convinced, with the help of some intentionally unconvincing denials from my parents, that I was an extraterrestrial.


Perhaps, though I've known conspiracy theorists to lie to advance their cause

You've known any other group that supports a cause not to? I see this all the time as a reason to dismiss conspiracy theories, but less often see it as a reason to dismiss literally every other belief and agenda anyone has ever held. I think it's unsound to view the theories on anything but their own (usually minimal) merit.


I think I've read an interview with that poor guy.

He was looking for information about UFOs so of course he saw it. He had no actual education or experience with government or aerospace work so everything that looked weird to him was interpreted through his UFO nut lens.

Yeah, pretty much this. I mean, one of the pieces of evidence is a mention of "fleet to fleet transfers," as though there could be no kind of fleet but a giant space fleet based on reverse-engineered alien technology.

[Solaris]

Interesting thing about security.

You can't hack government computers that contain TS-classified information from the civilian internet, because they are on a physically separate network. That leads me to doubt claims that information about a secret government space military being hacked from NASA computers on the outset, even without examining them for logical inconsistency.

As for Solar Warden itself being 'bad', you have to look at it from the conspiracy theorist's mindset. They are convinced that the government is run by a secret cabal of megalomaniacal supervillains hell-bent on obtaining global domination. When viewed from that perspective, this cabal having command over a space fleet gets to be scary because they can use it against civilians or some such.
Never mind that we already have, y'know, regular bombers.

It's the same sort of mindset that thinks "drones" are evil robots incapable of doing anything but blowing up children. It's juvenile at best.

[Zrak]

Interesting thing about security.

You can't hack government computers that contain TS-classified information from the civilian internet, because they are on a physically separate network. That leads me to doubt claims that information about a secret government space military being hacked from NASA computers on the outset, even without examining them for logical inconsistency.

To be fair, the United States government was trying to extradite him for doing pretty much exactly what he claims to have done.

[Solaris]

To be fair, the United States government was trying to extradite him for doing pretty much exactly what he claims to have done.

No, it was trying to extradite him for having vandalized several computer systems, none of which have any reason to be isolated from the civilian internet (and every reason to be able to easily access the internet), and in so doing costing the American taxpayer hundreds of thousands of dollars. That's no more like hacking into TS-levels than punching out a bunch of preteen martial arts students is like beating up a bunch of professional boxers.

[Zrak]

I thought the vandalism was in addition to, not rather than, the charge of accessing classified files, but I could easily have misread or misremembered, I suppose. Of course, in either case, classified is not the same thing as top secret, as there are numerous other restricted classifications, so I can fully believe he didn't access top secret information.

EDIT: I certainly didn't dismember anyone, autocorrect. Typo fixed.

[Ravens_cry]

You've known any other group that supports a cause not to? I see this all the time as a reason to dismiss conspiracy theories, but less often see it as a reason to dismiss literally every other belief and agenda anyone has ever held. I think it's unsound to view the theories on anything but their own (usually minimal) merit.

I can't speak for all conspiracy theories, as I have no desire or time to go down that massive nest of rabbit trails, but I have investigated Apollo hoax conspiracy theories for over 8 years, and when they are not simple ignorance they are inevitably lying, so far at least. I mention Bart Sibrel specifically because he's one of the bigger names in this , making money off his lies and appearing on national television to spout his ignorant and lying claims. So, if I seem dismissive, it's from hard won experience.

[Rockphed]

I can't speak for all conspiracy theories, as I have no desire or time to go down that massive nest of rabbit trails, but I have investigated Apollo hoax conspiracy theories for over 8 years, and when they are not simple ignorance they are inevitably lying, so far at least. I mention Bart Sibrel specifically because he's one of the bigger names in this , making money off his lies and appearing on national television to spout his ignorant and lying claims. So, if I seem dismissive, it's from hard won experience.

Is that the guy who was bothering an astronaut, so the 70+ year old astronaut just slugged him?

As to whether consistent lies are cause to ignore a group's claims, the only groups that regularly lie and don't get ignored because of it are religious or political in nature. Even among those groups, those who lie too much eventually lose all credibility because of it.

[Ravens_cry]

Is that the guy who was bothering an astronaut, so the 70+ year old astronaut just slugged him?

As to whether consistent lies are cause to ignore a group's claims, the only groups that regularly lie and don't get ignored because of it are religious or political in nature. Even among those groups, those who lie too much eventually lose all credibility because of it.
Yep! Sibrel was pestering Buzz Aldrin, despite requests by the latter to leave him alone, so Buzz Aldrin gave him a good slug (https://youtu.be/wptn5RE2I-k?t=93").

[Solaris]

I thought the vandalism was in addition to, not rather than, the charge of accessing classified files, but I could easily have misread or misremembered, I suppose. Of course, in either case, classified is not the same thing as top secret, as there are numerous other restricted classifications, so I can fully believe he didn't access top secret information.

EDIT: I certainly didn't dismember anyone, autocorrect. Typo fixed.

Bold for emphasis; that's the main point I'm trying to make. Something like a space fleet would not be classified down in the levels where guys like me could access (back when I still had an active clearance, that is; I'm a free man now out of the service). It would thus not be in a position where someone like our dear Mr McKinnon could remotely access it. He may have been looking at something that was classified, and misinterpreting what he read (it's hilarious, irritating, and sad how often civilians do that), but not looking at what he thought he was looking at.


Yep! Sibrel was pestering Buzz Aldrin, despite requests by the latter to leave him alone, so Buzz Aldrin gave him a good slug (https://youtu.be/wptn5RE2I-k?t=93").

That's one of the most beautiful moments in internet journalism.
It also makes me sadface that a schmuck like that has actually gotten to speak with Buzz Aldrin and I haven't. Life just ain't fair.

[Zrak]

I can't speak for all conspiracy theories, as I have no desire or time to go down that massive nest of rabbit trails, but I have investigated Apollo hoax conspiracy theories for over 8 years, and when they are not simple ignorance they are inevitably lying, so far at least. I mention Bart Sibrel specifically because he's one of the bigger names in this , making money off his lies and appearing on national television to spout his ignorant and lying claims. So, if I seem dismissive, it's from hard won experience.

I don't disagree, I just also hold the view that most opinions held by most people about most subjects, especially when taken broadly and categorically and including even those opinions with which I agree, are predicated almost entirely on ignorance and lies.


Bold for emphasis; that's the main point I'm trying to make. Something like a space fleet would not be classified down in the levels where guys like me could access (back when I still had an active clearance, that is; I'm a free man now out of the service). It would thus not be in a position where someone like our dear Mr McKinnon could remotely access it. He may have been looking at something that was classified, and misinterpreting what he read (it's hilarious, irritating, and sad how often civilians do that), but not looking at what he thought he was looking at.
Yeah, that was basically what I always assumed had happened, especially after it came to light that part of the basis was from reading documents about "fleet to fleet transfers" and "extraterrestrial officers," both of which could mean a number of entirely mundane things even assuming it actually said "extraterrestrial" and that wasn't just a massive leap from "E.T. officer."

[HandofShadows]

Yep! Sibrel was pestering Buzz Aldrin, despite requests by the latter to leave him alone, so Buzz Aldrin gave him a good slug (https://youtu.be/wptn5RE2I-k?t=93").

All that did is make Mr. Aldrin be even MORE epic than he already was. :smallbiggrin: :smallcool:

[Seharvepernfan]

Well, here's my two copper-plated zincs.

Nikola Tesla (bye, 95% of anybody reading this) talked about being able to build a "flying stove" via electromagnetism (I think); basically, it was an iron box with no propellers, exhaust, wings, etc, no outward signs of being able to fly, and yet it could attain high speeds, stop immediately, float perfectly still in a hurricane, etc. Now, looking at what Tesla was capable of doing 100 years ago, I don't think it's such a stretch that he could build something like that.

Tesla died in the 30's, and guess who confiscated all his notes? The FBI. The government has had Tesla's notes for like 85 years now. So, when people talk about seeing UFO's and "flying cigars"....I think they're seeing human-craft (assuming they aren't just lying).

What backs this up? The US government has a huge black budget and everybody knows it's always lying about stuff.


But nobody can keep a secret that big!

How many people knew about the Manhattan Project before the Enola Gay dropped teh bass on Japan? That was a big damn project, with thousands of people, a bigass laboratory out in the desert, and other parts going on in other places around the country (apparently a college near where I live has a warm room that was used for it back then), and it's not like the NSA existed back then to keep any one of those people from blabbing to a friend without the government knowing.

Several years ago, some japanese scientist invented an invisibility cloak. He wasn't part of any huge-budget military program or anything, it was just him and a team of assistants AFAIK. So, if some guy could make something like that several years ago....doesn't it seem probable that the US government could have a long time earlier?

So, yeah, I think it's possible.

But, deception is like 98% of power, so whatever.

[HandofShadows]

For one thing, Tesla died in 1943, not the 1930's and long before he died he was showing signs of mental decline. (Sorry, but it's the truth folks. Fantastic claims require fantastic proof to back them up and there isn't any proof).

Most people working on the Manhattan Project had zero idea what they were working on. So even if they DID talk they couldn't tell anyone very much. And VERY few of those people talked. The attitude towards secrecy was very different then than it is now. Back then the countries' maybe even the world's fate depended on secrecy and people kept their mouths shut. Los Alamos was put out in desert specifically because there was no one and nothing around it. You might suspect there was something going on, but you would have had no idea what. This was war and there where LOTS of secret projects going on. Of course all the secrecy was not foolproof, Stalin knew the results of the first atomic bomb test almost before Truman did. BUT it DID keep the German's and Japanese from knowing about the project.

[Seharvepernfan]

Most people working on the Manhattan Project had zero idea what they were working on.

Could be much the same with something like this.

[Yora]

But they could not hide from the public that there was a war going on against Germany and Japan and that Germany might be working on nuclear weapons.

What would a secret NASA fleet in space even be for? What would it do?

[snowblizz]

What would a secret NASA fleet in space even be for? What would it do?

It's fighting against UFOs that all the crop circle enthusiast keep calling down of course.

[comicshorse]

[QUOTE=Seharvepernfan;19908278
Several years ago, some japanese scientist invented an invisibility cloak.
[/QUOTE]

Could I have a link to this cause it sounds fascinating

[Yora]

It's some kind of fabric that serves as a projection screen for a camera image that even works when it's crumpled. Somehow.
Hard to find any good articles, I only found news snippets that barely explain anything and just show one or two demonstration photos.

[Closet_Skeleton]

The Manhatten Project was hidden through disinformation. Lots of people noticed Los Alamos and that something weird was going on. Los Alamos is therefore a terrible example of 'project requiring massive infrastructure that nobody noticed' because everyone noticed the infrastructure.


For one thing, Tesla died in 1943, not the 1930's and long before he died he was showing signs of mental decline. (Sorry, but it's the truth folks. Fantastic claims require fantastic proof to back them up and there isn't any proof).

Tesla was also a self-publicist who was never that concerned with the truth to start with. Its hard to tell if he was really crazy or just desperate.

[Solaris]

Well, here's my two copper-plated zincs.

Nikola Tesla (bye, 95% of anybody reading this) talked about being able to build a "flying stove" via electromagnetism (I think); basically, it was an iron box with no propellers, exhaust, wings, etc, no outward signs of being able to fly, and yet it could attain high speeds, stop immediately, float perfectly still in a hurricane, etc. Now, looking at what Tesla was capable of doing 100 years ago, I don't think it's such a stretch that he could build something like that.

Tesla died in the 30's, and guess who confiscated all his notes? The FBI. The government has had Tesla's notes for like 85 years now. So, when people talk about seeing UFO's and "flying cigars"....I think they're seeing human-craft (assuming they aren't just lying).

What backs this up? The US government has a huge black budget and everybody knows it's always lying about stuff.



How many people knew about the Manhattan Project before the Enola Gay dropped teh bass on Japan? That was a big damn project, with thousands of people, a bigass laboratory out in the desert, and other parts going on in other places around the country (apparently a college near where I live has a warm room that was used for it back then), and it's not like the NSA existed back then to keep any one of those people from blabbing to a friend without the government knowing.

Several years ago, some japanese scientist invented an invisibility cloak. He wasn't part of any huge-budget military program or anything, it was just him and a team of assistants AFAIK. So, if some guy could make something like that several years ago....doesn't it seem probable that the US government could have a long time earlier?

So, yeah, I think it's possible.

But, deception is like 98% of power, so whatever.

Leaving aside Tesla's dubious claims (and while he was a genius, he wasn't quite the wizard popular imagination paints him to be), why would the government be keeping magic hovercraft a secret?

You're also dramatically underestimating the investment and resources required to develop metamaterials, if you think it was just one man and a team of assistants.

[Zrak]

Because if the government admitted they had magic flying hovercrafts, everyone would make fun of them for claiming to have magic flying hovercrafts. :smalltongue:

[Kantaki]

It's fighting against UFOs that all the crop circle enthusiast keep calling down of course.

:smallconfused:Wait, crop circles are made by Nazis?:smallwink::smallbiggrin:

[Swordsmith]

Disinformation has also been a successful goverment plan since way back, including the famous Area 51. Were there UFO's flying there? Yes, because we were flying craft that we did not identify. UFO means merely that, Unidentified Flying Objects. The implication that said objects must be of extraterrestrial origin, as opposed to simply being things that we haven't explained to you, requires quite a leap of logic and a willful ignorance of Occam's Razor. But helping along the idea in a way that bordered on the preposterous to most people made it easy for everyone to ignore the reports of craft doing things that "can't be done"... and adding reports of craft doing things that we really couldn't do only helped bury the reports that were factual.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Disinformation has also been a successful goverment plan since way back, including the famous Area 51. Were there UFO's flying there? Yes, because we were flying craft that we did not identify.

Sort of, the government's ability to produce disinformation was completely overshadowed by the public sector.

The UFO and Area 51 link wasn't even based on the top secret prototype planes that were being tested there. It was basically a coincidence caused by the US Air Force not being able to hide the fact that it was hiding something. The rumours spread because the completely ineffective attempts to claim that a obviously existent airbase did not exist. Conspiracy Theorist attention wasn't even drawn to the base until 1989, just as the Cold War that made keeping its spy planes secret was ending, decades after the UFO craze.

The Roswell crash story came about because nobody accepted the government's weather balloon claim. The fact that the actual Project Mogul was hidden by the UFO claim was just a lucky break for the Cold War effort.

10 years later the Atomic Energy Commission used the same 'weather monitoring' explanation for the Groom Lake base.

The fact that the US government never successfully brought conspiracy theorists on board on a large scale is good evidence of it being too inept at disinformation to ever successfully hide the existence of aliens.

[Douglas]

The fact that the US government never successfully brought conspiracy theorists on board on a large scale is good evidence of it being too inept at disinformation to ever successfully hide the existence of aliens.
But what if they did and just hid it?:smallbiggrin: