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LongVin
2007-05-10, 10:41 PM
Being a big fan of the Drow, I had to order the new Drow of the Underdark book when it was announced and on one day shipping. I devoted the past 3 hours to reading it cover to cover and I have to say I am sorely disappointed with it. It is for all intents and purposes a 3.5ified version of the original Drow of the Underdark book but with lots of cool stuff taken out.

Firstly, the book is entirely Lolth-centric. They completely marginalize the other gods down to one paragraph where it says that gods like Ghaundaur and Vhaeraun are honored but not considered true gods. Excuse me? I think the Jaerzid would offer opposition to that. And not ONE mention of Elistraee.

The only other mention of any worship of any other diety by the Drow is one tiny sidebar devoted to the cult of the elder elemental eye.

Also in the items section they for some reason just decided to randomly get rid of the Drow piwafwi, perhaps the most iconic piece of drow clothing ever.

They for some reason also removed the restrictions of having Drow weapons not longer useable on the surface. There really is no explanation for it and they claim the Drow just decided to stop making that a "feature."

They also made Drow have alliances with Driders.

And I don't think they coordinated with the art directors well. On page 16 the picture of Lolth's temple looks like their is a skyscene and the sun rising on the horizon.

Jack Mann
2007-05-11, 01:23 AM
If it makes you feel any better, the Magic Item Compendium has a greater piwafwi, and says that the regular piwafwi is the equivilant of a cloak of elvenkind.

Attilargh
2007-05-11, 01:33 AM
They for some reason also removed the restrictions of having Drow weapons not longer useable on the surface. There really is no explanation for it and they claim the Drow just decided to stop making that a "feature."
I'm not quite sure, but wasn't that explained in Elaine Cunningham's series Starlight and Shadows?

Inyssius Tor
2007-05-11, 02:45 AM
They also made Drow have alliances with Driders.


Say what? That's like the Githyanki making alliances with Githzerai or Illithids! :smallconfused: "Because they have failed their goddess's test, driders are outcasts from their own communities. Drow and driders hate one another passionately"- it's in the core rules!

Khantalas
2007-05-11, 07:18 AM
Is Drow of the Underdark a FR book or is it Greyhawk? Cause there is a lot of difference between those two. Most basically the most common alignment of Greyhawk drow being NE, and FR drow being CE. And I don't think there are as many good drow in Greyhawk as there are in FR (damn you, Drizzt), and not much need for Eilistraee.

I don't think Greyhawk drow ever used that specific adamantine alloy that corroded in sunlight. And I don't think FR drow would use it after all that stuff that has happened to them lately.

But the drider - drow alliance is heresy. Even though there are specific examples, such as in War of the Spider Queen, those are only exceptions, not the rule.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-05-11, 07:56 AM
But the drider - drow alliance is heresy. Even though there are specific examples, such as in War of the Spider Queen, those are only exceptions, not the rule.

I noticed that Heroes of Battle had a section on Cavalry from various humanoids including Drow riding Driders. Not only is that complete blasphemy but darn stupid. Centaurs don't like being ridden by humans so why should Driders be ridable?

Talya
2007-05-11, 08:00 AM
Many driders become Selvetarglin, and are therefore warriors of Lolth.

Of course, now that Selvetarm is dead, that might not happen anymore.

Khoran
2007-05-11, 08:00 AM
I noticed that Heroes of Battle had a section on Cavalry from various humanoids including Drow riding Driders. Not only is that complete blasphemy but darn stupid. Centaurs don't like being ridden by humans so why should Driders be ridable?

Maybe told they can redeem themselves to Lloth?

Talya
2007-05-11, 08:12 AM
Oh, Vhaerun and Eilistraee don't really belong in a book called "Drow of the Underdark," as followers of both have moved to the surface for the most part. Lolth, Kiriansalee, Ghaunadaur, etc. are all underdark-worthy. If there were a short "Drow of the Surface World" addition, Eilistraee and Vhaerun would apply.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-11, 10:30 AM
Firstly, the book is entirely Lolth-centric. They completely marginalize the other gods down to one paragraph where it says that gods like Ghaundaur and Vhaeraun are honored but not considered true gods. Excuse me? I think the Jaerzid would offer opposition to that. And not ONE mention of Elistraee.

Er, the Drow of the Underdark are the...well, Underdark drow. You know, the ones whose society is built around Lolth-worship, and kill those who follow Ellistraee and the like?


Also in the items section they for some reason just decided to randomly get rid of the Drow piwafwi, perhaps the most iconic piece of drow clothing ever.

They for some reason also removed the restrictions of having Drow weapons not longer useable on the surface. There really is no explanation for it and they claim the Drow just decided to stop making that a "feature."

Well, considering the militant, expansive bent of the drow, I'm surprised it hasn't been done already. How are you going to wage a war against the surfacedwellers when every time you try to raid them, your weapon melts?


They also made Drow have alliances with Driders.

Is it an alliance, or is it forced subservience? The latter makes sense.

AngelAndrius
2007-05-11, 10:39 AM
I am very curious about the details of teh Drow/Drider alliance. It seems nigh impossible, but I suppose it could be done, either with subserviant, almost slave-like, Driders or militant, anrchist Drow that want to overthrow Lolth and her religion, perhaps some disgruntled males?

As for the mount thing, its obvious. Lolth glued some of her followers together as a cruel joke that malicious bitch.

Lolth
2007-05-11, 02:50 PM
As for the mount thing, its obvious. Lolth glued some of her followers together as a cruel joke that malicious bitch.

Hey now! Purely surface elf propaganda!

As for me, still waiting on my book to come, be a real boon to the chat. I'm also not a fan of Forgotten Realms style Drow, I like the original, which is what this book caters to, it seems.

w00t!

LongVin
2007-05-11, 03:07 PM
I'm not quite sure, but wasn't that explained in Elaine Cunningham's series Starlight and Shadows?

Not sure. I would have to check. But it would of been nice for there to be an explanation of that in the sourcebook.

LongVin
2007-05-11, 03:11 PM
Is Drow of the Underdark a FR book or is it Greyhawk? Cause there is a lot of difference between those two. Most basically the most common alignment of Greyhawk drow being NE, and FR drow being CE. And I don't think there are as many good drow in Greyhawk as there are in FR (damn you, Drizzt), and not much need for Eilistraee.

I don't think Greyhawk drow ever used that specific adamantine alloy that corroded in sunlight. And I don't think FR drow would use it after all that stuff that has happened to them lately.

But the drider - drow alliance is heresy. Even though there are specific examples, such as in War of the Spider Queen, those are only exceptions, not the rule.

It is for all settings technically. So they'll have "in the forgotten realms..." or "in Ebberon..." They also have the Drow listed as primarily Neutral Evil saying that their is some sense of tradition and order and that it is not completely chaotic.

LongVin
2007-05-11, 03:13 PM
Oh, Vhaerun and Eilistraee don't really belong in a book called "Drow of the Underdark," as followers of both have moved to the surface for the most part. Lolth, Kiriansalee, Ghaunadaur, etc. are all underdark-worthy. If there were a short "Drow of the Surface World" addition, Eilistraee and Vhaerun would apply.

Well they should atleast mention them and outline their powers. But they don't even mention the other Underdark ones. Atleast in the 2.0 book though still Lolthcentric(understandable) they atleast present the other gods and their view on the place of the Drow.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-11, 03:17 PM
...why? It's entirely inapplicable to the book to comment about the opinion of surface gods of an entirely different ethnic group about the drow.

RandomNPC
2007-05-11, 03:18 PM
i was gonna get the book, but drider aliances, no melty weapons, and no cloak thingies..... oy.

iconic clothing gone, awesome weapon drawbacks undrawn, and alliances with failures who are shunned from life as drow know it?

to this i say: meh

LongVin
2007-05-11, 03:20 PM
I am very curious about the details of teh Drow/Drider alliance. It seems nigh impossible, but I suppose it could be done, either with subserviant, almost slave-like, Driders or militant, anrchist Drow that want to overthrow Lolth and her religion, perhaps some disgruntled males?

As for the mount thing, its obvious. Lolth glued some of her followers together as a cruel joke that malicious bitch.

Some quick excerpts from "Drow and Other Races" on Driders:

"In recent years, however, this attitude has begun to shift particulary within the current generation of up-and-coming drow. Breaking free of the shackles of tradition, and seeking advantages their forebears would never consider, these drow have taken stock of drider abilities..."

"...It is possible that while Lolth was catigating an indiviual, she was also granting a favor to the community as a whole? That a driw who proved too weak on his own could be a workable tool for orther drow strong enough to seize and wield it?"

"These drow have made overtures to the exiled driders, offering them an oppurtunity to belong once again. Obviously, they cannot regain their prior status and can never be considered the equal of true drow, but they can fill the roles of favored servants and agents, with powers and privileges greater than other non-drow in the community."

"...Should this pattern continue, members of the younger generation of drow might find themselves at the head of sizable bands of driders, eagerly champing at the bit for a chance at revenger against the entrenched drow power structure that drove them out."

It doesn't really seem like a slave like nature, though the Drow come off as seeming to be on top it is still granting the Driders significant powers and rights.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-11, 03:21 PM
i was gonna get the book, but drider aliances, no melty weapons, and no cloak thingies..... oy.

iconic clothing gone, awesome weapon drawbacks undrawn, and alliances with failures who are shunned from life as drow know it?

to this i say: meh

Each and every one of those that you just mentioned is Faerun-specific. Drow are not Faerun-specific; they exist in Greyhawk, in Eberron, in Faerun, and (if I recall) in Ravenloft and Dragonlance too. Those, while iconic of the Faerunian Drow, are not for the other existences of Drow.

EDIT: As for the Drow/Drider thing, that is also Faerun-specific. However, even in that context, its not surprising. Faerun moves forward at a pace of one year every four years, mostly through the progress of Living Faerun. Things do change, and this is a not surprising move forward.

LongVin
2007-05-11, 03:22 PM
...why? It's entirely inapplicable to the book to comment about the opinion of surface gods of an entirely different ethnic group about the drow.

Well the surface Drow gods are constantly trying to lure followers away from Lolth. Elisstrae ultimate goal is to bring the drow back to the surface and break them away from their evilness. So I think there should be mention of her and her works at "corrupting" true Drow.

Khantalas
2007-05-11, 03:22 PM
Fax... tsk tsk. You disappoint me. Drow don't exist in Dragonlance.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-11, 03:26 PM
Fax... tsk tsk. You disappoint me. Drow don't exist in Dragonlance.

I guess I do not recall correctly. Oh well. The point is made, though: the book is written for drow universally, not for drow in Faerun.

Dausuul
2007-05-11, 03:42 PM
Fax... tsk tsk. You disappoint me. Drow don't exist in Dragonlance.

Yet dark elves do, which is mildly amusing.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-05-11, 03:42 PM
Well the surface Drow gods are constantly trying to lure followers away from Lolth. Elisstrae ultimate goal is to bring the drow back to the surface and break them away from their evilness. So I think there should be mention of her and her works at "corrupting" true Drow.
Hmm...I always thought her true purpose was allowing players to play CG Emo-Drow. :smalltongue:

Seriously though, there's already plenty about Elisstrae, this was supposed to be a book about the drow as dark, mysterious, and deadly. This is an Evil book, it focused on the Evil drow Goddess.

As for the Driders, the way it was listed earlier, it's not so much an alliance as it is a calculated exploitation of the Driders as servants; that seems perfectly reasonable.

The "Cool, Unique Weapon Drawback" was probably a good thing to get rid of; as those weapons really didn't make much practical sense other than making the Drow a "dungeon race." As Fax said earlier, why would Drow want to limit their own weapons?

And as for the Piwafwi: It's a button down vest. I don't see how losing it somehow has harmed the Drow mystique; or why anyone expected a lengthy sidebar on what amounted to a royal robe with a complex name.

Khantalas
2007-05-11, 04:25 PM
Yet dark elves do, which is mildly amusing.

Yes, but they are just evil elves. Not obsidian skin, white hair, living underground and all that. They're just exiles.

I can't assume it was sarcasm, either, since there were no smilies.

So, woo.

I_Got_This_Name
2007-05-11, 05:09 PM
The Drow Melty Weapons basically meant that you could have a Drow using a +5 Sword that vanishes when the PCs get their hands on it.

It's a loot reduction engine, nothing more or less. It restricts the drow to night raids on the surface (IIRC), though.

Dausuul
2007-05-11, 05:28 PM
Yes, but they are just evil elves. Not obsidian skin, white hair, living underground and all that. They're just exiles.

I can't assume it was sarcasm, either, since there were no smilies.

So, woo.

Nah, it was just an observation. It didn't really have enough substance to warrant sarcasm.

AngelAndrius
2007-05-11, 07:57 PM
Hey now! Purely surface elf propaganda!

Haha sorry Lolth, errr didn't see you there.

*cough

PLease don't turn me into a man-spider.

:smallfrown:

Merlin the Tuna
2007-05-11, 09:12 PM
They for some reason also removed the restrictions of having Drow weapons not longer useable on the surface. There really is no explanation for it and they claim the Drow just decided to stop making that a "feature."
You're a bit behind here. This wasn't changed in Drow of the Underdark, it was changed when 3E began. As Fax mentioned, it makes them absolutely neutered in a battle against surface dwellers, and as Sean K Reynolds notes, it's terrible game design. (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/drowitemsdontdecay.html)

I can't speak for the rest of the book, but that's one of those things that makes me look back at older editions and say "By the gods, people actually used rules like that?"

Gwenfloor
2007-05-11, 09:14 PM
Did they put details on the deities of the Greyhawk Drow other than Lolth, such as Keptolo, Kiaransalee (who is also in FR), and Zinzerina?

Knight_Of_Twilight
2007-05-11, 09:51 PM
I think they wanted to make the book as generic as possible- thus, they took out a lot of the Faerun stuff, so on and so forth.

Doesn't look like a bad book- but we don't use Drow in our homebrewed setting, so...

Tobrecan
2007-05-11, 10:31 PM
As Jack Mann mentioned the Greater Piwafwi is in the Magic Item Compendium, it also appeared in the Races of Faerun book. And the sun-melted equipment (at least 3.5 game-wise) is the drowcraft property described in the forgotten realms Underdark book.

LongVin
2007-05-11, 11:19 PM
Did they put details on the deities of the Greyhawk Drow other than Lolth, such as Keptolo, Kiaransalee (who is also in FR), and Zinzerina?

Nope. Only Lolth. They mention Zinzerena and have her story in it but they don't mention anything about her being a god except a little blurb how some drow worships her as a demigod.

Matthew
2007-05-12, 06:39 AM
You're a bit behind here. This wasn't changed in Drow of the Underdark, it was changed when 3E began. As Fax mentioned, it makes them absolutely neutered in a battle against surface dwellers, and as Sean K Reynolds notes, it's terrible game design. (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/drowitemsdontdecay.html)

I can't speak for the rest of the book, but that's one of those things that makes me look back at older editions and say "By the gods, people actually used rules like that?"
Wow, that is such bad reasoning on Reynolds' part. It only makes sense in the context of Dungeons & Dragons 3.x, where there are such things as Challenge Ratings and Wealth by Level. Personally, I was never a fan of 'Super Magic Drow Items that melt in the Sunlight', but the 'risk versus return' argument seems silly to me outside of D&D 3.x.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-05-12, 07:32 AM
Wow, that is such bad reasoning on Reynolds' part. It only makes sense in the context of Dungeons & Dragons 3.x, where there are such things as Challenge Ratings and Wealth by Level. Personally, I was never a fan of 'Super Magic Drow Items that melt in the Sunlight', but the 'risk versus return' argument seems silly to me outside of D&D 3.x.
Considering that you agree that it does make sense in the context of 3.x, what is so bad about his reasoning.

It was brief, but seemed perfectly valid to me.

Tengu
2007-05-12, 07:57 AM
This topic reminds me that an NWN2 persistent world I play on has all adamantine weapons made by Drow, and therefore melt in sunlight. Feel free to comment on this idea.

Matthew
2007-05-12, 10:18 AM
Considering that you agree that it does make sense in the context of 3.x, what is so bad about his reasoning.

It was brief, but seemed perfectly valid to me.
Well, I could be mistaken, but he seems to be extending the reasoning to previous editions, which makes no sense to me.

LongVin
2007-05-12, 10:28 AM
My only problem with the melting thing was they normally treated it as the item instantly melting as soon as it came in contact with the sun. I would of used a gradual decay(like what is present in the Drizzt books) where the weapons and armor slowly lose their potency before completely breaking apart over the course of days or weeks.

That way the Drow would be able to fight a surface war. But of course the Drow would never come out in the day anyway to fight, why would they expose themselves to blindness?

Jewish_Joke
2007-05-12, 12:09 PM
Hm. A few points to make...

1. The Drow of the Underdark was designed as core-centric, in spite of the fact that the original Drow of the Underdark was FR specific.

2. The Drider-Drow hatred predated the Forgotten Realms. Therefore, as a core supplement, it doesn't make sense, for any campaign setting.

3. Note that there is no mention of the Eberron Drow. This reinforces the fact that this book is core, and therefore Greyhawk specific.

4. The piwafwi has been detailed in numerous 3rd edition Forgotten Realms supplements, along with the Magic Item Compendium. There really is no need to print it again...

5. Any Realms player knows that the Drow pantheon does not extend to other campaigns, so the events of the War of the Spider Queen series (i.e. the deaths of Vhaeraun and Selvatarm, the rising influence of Eilistraee), for example, has not happened in the world of Greyhawk, and thus did not get any mention in Drow of the Underdark. In core, Lolth has always been the uncontested Queen of the Drow. The drow are of the Greyhawk campaign are distinguishable from other Drow in that they are the closest approximation to a monotheistic people in a polytheistic campaign setting.

6. The Drow's items decayed in sunlight because of the fact that Drow hate the sun. It makes sense from the drows perspective, since they had little intention of even leaving the underdark for the surface but for a handful of raids against the "vile fairie elves." It was, mechanically, idocy, but I always thought it was fitting for an arrogant and xenophobic race. Think of it this way, the drow believe themselves the only people worthy of wielding these Lolth-granted weapons, so they curse their items so that they decay in the sun, the most beloved symbol and source of warmth to those who Lolth found "unworthy".

7. Drow in Dragonlance are merely a "Kender Myth". Dark elves are simply elves that have rejected the grace and benevolence of their kindred. In other words, the opposite of Drizzt.

Dark
2007-05-12, 08:47 PM
I don't think Greyhawk drow ever used that specific adamantine alloy that corroded in sunlight.
Oh yes they did. It was in the original "Descent into the depths of the earth" module that introduced the drow. The specific rationale given was that they were forged with the aid of the "unknown radiations" of the "strange homeland of the Drow". So it was not a deliberate curse, just a side effect of the way they were made. Possibly the drow never even noticed the problem, since they so rarely left their underground realm.

In addition to being spoiled by sunlight, the items would also fade and become normal items if they were outside the Drow homeland for too long.

You know, it might be best if I just quote the paragraph :) It's from the 1981 edition which combined modules D1 and D2 into D1-2.


Special Note Regarding Drow Cloaks, Armor, and Weapons:
All of these items have special properties, although none of them radiate any magic. The items are made under the conditions particular to the strange homeland of the Drow, for this place has unknown radiations which impart special properties to these cloaks, armor and weapons. When such items are exposed to direct sunlight a rotting process sets in. The process is absolutely irreversible, and within 2 weeks cloaks will fall to shreds, while armor and weapons become pitted and unusable. If items are not exposed to sunlight, they will retain their magical properties for 31-50 days before losing them, and if they are exposed to the radiation of the Drow homeland 30 or so days, they will remain potent. Items not spoiled by sunlight will eventually lose their special properties if not exposed to the special radiation, but they will remain serviceable as normal cloaks, armor, shields, swords, maces, etc.

Note that the items did not "radiate any magic", but the bonuses are still identified as "magical properties". And the decay under sunlight was not instantaneous, but the irreversible nature of the decay would make a daylight raid a very expensive proposition.

The "strange homeland of the Drow" is probably the specific one introduced in module D3, which was in a city-sized cavern where the ceiling was studded with gems that emitted both light (convenient for adventurers) and the unknown radiations. This detail had to change when drow started showing up in other places.

Also note: No mention of adamantite. The rule also applied to cloaks, which are presumably not made of metal at all. However, the monster entry for Drow in the back of that module does say that their chainmail is made of an alloy of steel containing adamantite and that the AC bonus is due to that:


Drow wear a fine mesh armor of exquisite workmanship. It is an alloy of steel containing adamantite, and even the lowliest fighters have in effect +1 chainmail, with higher level Drow having +2, +3, +4, or even +5 chainmail. Small bucklers are also used, shields of unusual shape, those of greater experience level and importance in the society having bucklers fashioned of adamantite so as to be +1, +2, or +3 value.

Lest you think this is a contradiction, the next paragraph says that these bonuses are "magic-like but non-magical" (but also refers to them as "magical bonuses") and that the strange radiations are needed to bring them out. This part of the module doesn't explain the cloaks.