Adapting 3.5 houserules to PF.

[heavyfuel]

EDIT: I'm asuming no one's replied because of the huge wall of text, so I've trimmed it down to what I think are the most important changes.

This is a (modified) list of houserules I have in 3.5, and would like to know if I've done something absurd when porting them to PF.

Inside SPOILERS are my reasoning behind each rule.


ABILITY SCORES


Ability Scores are capped at 20+racial bonus.Straight from 5e, I dislike the idea of having a Cleric wiser than his own God or somesuch
Anything other than Racial Bonuses and Level acquired Ability Scores that grants a bonus to ability scores is halved (eg: Bull’s Strength only gives +2, not +4. Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2 only gives +1.)So characters don't have 20+racial bonus in every ability score so easily.



COMBAT


Flanking: If you are flanked, everyone threatening you also gains the attack roll bonus.
For every additional enemy threatening you, all gain a cumulative +2 to atk rolls that stack with the +2 from flanking. So if you are flanked and there are 6 enemies threatening you, each enemy gains +10 to atk rolls.
Improved Uncanny Dodge now requires that you are flanked and that there’s at least on more enemy in threatening you for all to benefit for you to be flanked (so you need at least 3 people to be flanked). If you are flanked, the bonus to attack rolls is reduced by 2.
Aid Another can also be used to lower the enemy's DR, SR, or checks by 2 (still need to hit AC 10).
Aid Another can be used and benefited from at range, at half effectiveness.
My attempt to bring Bounded Accuracy to 3.X. If you have 10 enemies hitting you, you become a much easier target, and mobs of weak creatures actually dangerous.



CLASSES


Rogues, Monks, and Barbarians all use their Unchained counterparts. Seems to fix these otherwise weak classes


Cavalier
I've heard the Cavalier is weak, but don't know enough about the class to houserule it. Suggestions appreciated.

Ranger and Paladin

Paladins and Rangers spells start at level 2, have 1 extra spell per level, and cast spontaneously from their list. Caster level equals level-1, not level-3.In 3.5 Ranger and Pally both need love, this has always been my way of giving it to them. Are their spells now powerful enough that doing this is a mistake?


Unchained Rogues and Ninjas

Sneak Attack is a Standard Action.
Sneak Attack damage is doubled (so a lv 1 Rogue sneak attacking a flat footed target deals an extra 3d6 damage. 2d6 from Sneak Attack, plus 1d6 for the enemy being flat-footed) and can be multiplied on a critical.Again, straight from 5e. The idea of a Rogue whacking 7 times with deadly precision has always bothered me. And if you listen to Curmudeon, TWF was nver the way to go. Hopefully, doubling the damage and allowing it to crit is compensation enough

[heavyfuel]

I'm asuming no one's replied because of the huge wall of text, so I've trimmed it down to what I think are the most important changes.

Hopefully this is an OK case for double posting, considering it's now on the second page with no replies, and the edit is substantial.

[BowStreetRunner]

For every additional enemy threatening you, all gain a cumulative +2 to atk rolls that stack with the +2 from flanking. So if you are flanked and there are 5 enemies threatening you, each enemy gains +10 to atk rolls.
This seems wrong. Let's begin by making sure we are using the word additional to mean 'for every adjacent enemy beyond the two who are creating the flanking situation'. So if you are flanked and there are two enemies threatening you, each enemy gains +2 to attack rolls. But if there are five enemies threatening you (the two to flank plus three others) then they get +8 to attack rolls.

[heavyfuel]

This seems wrong. Let's begin by making sure we are using the word additional to mean 'for every adjacent enemy beyond the two who are creating the flanking situation'. So if you are flanked and there are two enemies threatening you, each enemy gains +2 to attack rolls. But if there are five enemies threatening you (the two to flank plus three others) then they get +8 to attack rolls.

No. I actually meant "addtional". You can be threatened by non-adjacent enemies if they have reach.

[Chronikoce]

Pathfinder paladin got a huge amount of love in terms of their smite and weapon progression. I'm not sure I would boost their spellcasting like that as well.

[Susano-wo]

It seems like a well meaning but poor decision to try to bring 5E stat caps into 3.5/PF. The numbers for the monsters (or the save numbers in the case of spells with saves) are built for higher numbers, so you either nerf monster stats or you have to manually adjust CRs so the PC's are fighting things actually appropriate for the XP, etc.

Just seems like a lot of work, and for not much benefit (if you want a cleric to have less wisdom than a diety, then either don't stat the deities like that, or up their stats--a lot easier than trying to change the math for the whole game :smallbiggrin:)

[legomaster00156]

I'll add that in Pathfinder, the gods do not even have stats. Ever. This is because Paizo seems to have caught on that "if you stat it, they will kill it".

[Kish]

I'm not at all clear on why you aren't simply playing 5ed. Shrinking the stat scale for PCs that much seems likely to massively change the game once you get to a level where it matters at all; suddenly a Young Adult green dragon is stronger than the strongest member of a PC race can ever be, unless you've also redone the stats of all the monsters.

[heavyfuel]

Pathfinder paladin got a huge amount of love in terms of their smite and weapon progression. I'm not sure I would boost their spellcasting like that as well.

Would you say the same regarding the Ranger? Additionally, what if I only keep the spontaneous casting, but didn't lower the level?


I'm not at all clear on why you aren't simply playing 5ed. Shrinking the stat scale for PCs that much seems likely to massively change the game once you get to a level where it matters at all; suddenly a Young Adult green dragon is stronger than the strongest member of a PC race can ever be, unless you've also redone the stats of all the monsters.


It seems like a well meaning but poor decision to try to bring 5E stat caps into 3.5/PF. The numbers for the monsters (or the save numbers in the case of spells with saves) are built for higher numbers, so you either nerf monster stats or you have to manually adjust CRs so the PC's are fighting things actually appropriate for the XP, etc.

Just seems like a lot of work, and for not much benefit (if you want a cleric to have less wisdom than a diety, then either don't stat the deities like that, or up their stats--a lot easier than trying to change the math for the whole game :smallbiggrin:)

As I mentioned, these rules are merely being adapted from our 3.5 campaign, and I was looking for PF specific advice. Whenever someone suggests lowering the power level of PCs, the argument of screwing up CR is thrown around as if CR didn't have the balance of a two legged giraffe.

Having PCs not be as strong as Huge sized dragons is kind of the point. They can still be badass enough to fight one and take it down, but at the end of the day, it wasn't their Strength alone that did that, but their general combat prowess (High HP, BAB, Saves) together with wit and a small fortune in magical items.


I'll add that in Pathfinder, the gods do not even have stats. Ever. This is because Paizo seems to have caught on that "if you stat it, they will kill it".

Fair enough, but the analogy still stands when you have characters that can easily beat the Tarrasque in Arm Wrestling. Or when the Wizard can outplay a Cthulhu in a game of chess

[legomaster00156]

Fair enough, but the analogy still stands when you have characters that can easily beat the Tarrasque in Arm Wrestling. Or when the Wizard can outplay a Cthulhu in a game of chess
Well, there is an upper limit to how much one can possibly buff their stats without templates. Playing any of the normally playable races will get you no more than +4 to any given stat, for a maximum of 22. You can buff this to 28 with a +6 belt/headband. You can buff this further to 33 with your 5 inherent ability score increases. Finally, you can get to 38 with a +5 tome or 5 Wishes.
The Tarrasque has 41 STR. While a level 20 Orc can get pretty damn close, he won't be "easily beating" the thing in an arm wrestle.

[TheNivMizzet]

I just want to throw in that the god of insanity himself doesn't exactly seem like the best example for who the players can beat at Chess.

As for advice, if you're trying to cap the stats for the players rule the same for the monsters but just adjust the racial modifiers. A demon would have higher mental stats and physical attributes, but still be capped to 20+those attributes. Pain in the ass rolling for monsters, but make it consistent across the board, specific ranges for each race.

[Susano-wo]

My point is basically that the system is set up for higher stats, and you are going to have to massively retool existing game elements to adjust for that. CR may be borked, but the monsters still expect you to have around X total attack bonus, a decent amount of that coming from stats. Not to mention that magic types can work around having lower save DC's, whereas martial types have a much harder time working around attack and damage drops.

But hey, that's my two cents worth. If you like it, use it. (and if I were gaming in a group that wanted to do it, I'd give it a shot, certainly--it wouldn't stop me from playing the game unless I'd played a game with it and it had really screwed things up)

Though your stat system does introduce the nice element of making a strong race concretely stronger (something I wish 5E did, actually), since str race characters in STR classes will always end up with STR better than the characters who don't have said STR boost for their race.

[BowStreetRunner]

No. I actually meant "addtional". You can be threatened by non-adjacent enemies if they have reach.
So in effect what you are saying is that any time there is a normal flanking situation the attackers get a minimum of +4 to attack.

Single Attacker: +2 bonus, although this requires something like the Press to the Wall feat from Pathfinder that allows a single attacker to create a flanking situation without another attacker.
Two Attackers: +4 bonus, which is the normal flanking situation.
Three Attackers: +6 bonus.
Four Attackers: +8 bonus.
Five Attackers: +10 bonus.

I actually think this is a bit too strong. The single attacker scenario is a rarity. Mostly you are going to have 2-attacker flanks. That should be the default +2 bonus. The additional bonus should be only +1. Otherwise the power balance shifts to mobs of mooks. You would effectively need to change how CR calculations for groups of creatures are determined - the larger the group the bigger the spike in CR based on their ability to make mob attacks this way. You might want to try this instead:

Single Attacker: +2 bonus, although this requires something like the Press to the Wall feat from Pathfinder that allows a single attacker to create a flanking situation without another attacker.
Two Attackers: +2 bonus, which is the normal flanking situation.
Three Attackers: +3 bonus.
Four Attackers: +4 bonus.
Five Attackers: +5 bonus.

[Chronikoce]

Would you say the same regarding the Ranger? Additionally, what if I only keep the spontaneous casting, but didn't lower the level?


You could leave the spontaneous bit without it being a huge game changer I think.

As for Ranger I think that would likely be alright. I haven't seen a Ranger in play recently though so couldn't say for sure.

[heavyfuel]

So in effect what you are saying is that any time there is a normal flanking situation the attackers get a minimum of +4 to attack.


No no no... I meant to say for every additional enemy beyond two. So with 2, they get the usual +2. With 3, they get +4, so on. I see that I've made a typo in my first exemple (when I said threatened by 5 enemies, it was supposed to be a 6)

Sorry for any confusion.


You could leave the spontaneous bit without it being a huge game changer I think.

As for Ranger I think that would likely be alright. I haven't seen a Ranger in play recently though so couldn't say for sure.

Cool. I'll try it and have my players warned that this might not last, though it probably will. Thanks!

[ericgrau]

Seems fine in terms of porting to PF. I think the ability scores and flanking will get way out of hand once you get to large numbers: high level or lots of flankers. High level PC melee won't be able to hit and any surrounded will die in 1 round purely from damage. Nearly all the secondary attacks hit even against high AC. While high level casters will simply select spells that don't have saves and be mostly unaffected. At low/med level and fewer numbers it has less impact which is why you may not have seen the huge problem yet.

Increasing medium BAB to full BAB and full BAB to 1-25 BAB would solve the hitting issue. Giving +1 damage per 4 levels would solve the lost damage. Poor BAB should stay poor BAB except for the rare prestige classes that make attack rolls with one of their main stats: arcane trickster is the only one I can think of, and it should go from poor BAB to medium BAB.

For flanking drop the bonus per extra combatant to +1 and things should be fine. Getting surrounded with 6-8 foes is uncommon anyway, but this will at least keep it from being an automatic death sentence and instead make it a likely death sentence unless the player is strong enough.

[Milo v3]

My houserules for cavalier are:
Class Skills: The cavalier's class skills are Apprise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Geography)(Int), Knowledge (History)(Int), Knowledge (Local)(Int), Knowledge (Nobility)(Int), Knowledge (Religion)(Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Skills per Rank: 4 + Int Modifier.

Aristocrat (Ex): Cavalier gain a bonus equal to half their class level (minimum 1) on diplomacy checks.

Tactician (Ex): At 1st level, a cavalier receives a teamwork feat as a bonus feat. He must meet the prerequisites for this feat. As a standard action, the cavalier can grant a teamwork feat he possesses to all allies within 30 feet who can see and hear him. Allies retain the use of this bonus feat for 3 rounds plus 1 round for every two levels the cavalier possesses. Allies do not need to meet the prerequisites of these bonus feats. The cavalier can use this ability a number of times per day equal to his charisma modifier (minimum 1) at 1st level, plus one additional time per day at 5th level and for every 5 levels thereafter.

Resolve (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, the cavalier gains resolve that he can call upon to endure even the most devastating wounds and afflictions. He can use this ability once per day at 2nd level, plus one additional time per day for every two cavalier levels beyond 2nd. Whenever the cavalier defeats the target of his challenge, he regains one daily use of his resolve, up to his maximum number of uses per day. Defeating the target of his challenge usually involves reducing the target to 0 hit points or fewer, but the GM might rule that an enemy who surrenders or flees the battle is also defeated. He can use this resolve in a number of ways.
Determined: As a standard action, the cavalier can spend one use of his resolve to remove the fatigued, shaken, or sickened condition. If the cavalier is at least 8th level, he can alternatively remove the exhausted, frightened, nauseated, or staggered condition. If the condition has a duration longer than 1 hour or is permanent, this ability removes the condition for 1 hour, at which time the condition returns.
Resolute: Whenever the cavalier is required to make a Fortitude or Will save, he can spend one use of his resolve as an immediate action to roll twice and take the better result. He must decide to use this ability before he rolls the saving throw.
Unstoppable: When the cavalier is reduced to fewer than 0 hit points but not slain, he can spend one use of his resolve as an immediate action to instantly stabilise and remain conscious. He is staggered, but he does not fall unconscious and begin dying if he takes a standard action. He does fall unconscious if he takes additional damage from any source.

Noble's Influence (Ex): At seventh level, the cavalier gains a bonus equal to his class level on checks to gain capital in the form of influence.

Greater Tactician (Ex): At 9th level, the cavalier receives an additional teamwork feat as a bonus feat. He must meet the prerequisites for this feat. In addition, using the tactician ability is a swift action.

Greater Resolve (Ex): At 10th level, a cavalier can spend his resolve to negate some of his most grievous wounds. After a critical hit is confirmed against him, the cavalier can spend one use of his resolve as an immediate action to treat that critical hit as a normal hit. Effects that only trigger on a critical hit do not trigger when the cavalier uses this ability.

Honourable Stand (Ex): At 13th level, a cavalier can make an honourable stand, deciding to fight the target of his challenge to the bitter end, no matter the cost. He can make an honourable stand once per day at 13th level, plus one additional time per day at 18th level. Declaring an honourable stand is a swift action. While making an honourable stand, the cavalier is immune to the shaken, frightened, and panicked conditions. He does not fall unconscious while his hit point total is below 0. Finally, whenever a cavalier making an honourable stand must make a saving throw, he can spend one daily use of his resolve to reroll the saving throw after the first roll is made. He must take the result of the second roll, even if it is worse. If a cavalier making an honourable stand ever retreats from battle against his challenged foe, he loses the ability to make a challenge for 24 hours.

Master Tactician (Ex): At 17th level, the cavalier receives an additional teamwork feat as a bonus feat. He must meet the prerequisites for this feat. Whenever the cavalier uses the tactician ability, he grants any two teamwork feats that he knows.

True Resolve (Ex): At 18th level, a cavalier can spend uses of his resolve to avoid death. If he has at least two uses of his resolve remaining, he can spend all of the daily uses of his resolve that he has available to him to avoid death. Regardless of the source of the attack that would have killed him, he is left alive, at –1 hit points (or lower if he was already below –1), unconscious, and stable.

Last Stand (Ex): At 20th level, a cavalier can make a last stand once per day whenever he makes a challenge. While this challenge is in effect, all melee and ranged weapons deal the minimum amount of damage to the cavalier, unless the attack scored is a critical hit. In addition, the cavalier remains conscious and is not staggered while he is below 0 hit points. While using this ability, the cavalier cannot be killed by melee or ranged weapons unless they are wielded by the target of his challenge. Attacks made by opponents that are not the target of his challenge deal no damage when cavalier has 0 or fewer hit points. This ability has no effect on spells, environmental effects, supernatural abilities, or any other source of damage other than melee and ranged weapons. Such sources of damage affect him normally and can kill him (although they do not cause him to fall unconscious or to become staggered if they reduce his hit points below 0). This effect lasts until the challenge ends or the cavalier takes an offensive action against a target other than the target of his challenge.

[Vhaidara]

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to do with the accuracy changes. What you've done is significantly boost to hit rolls. Which already rapidly outscale Armor Class.

Look at two characters at, say, level 10. Assuming they're both Fighters with no gear and straight 10 stats, they each have AC 10 and +10 to hit. For every gold/build point one of them invests in raising his AC, the other can invest the same in a bonus to hit (through Str, weapon enhancement, feats, you name it). Meanwhile, the investments of the guy going offensively minded will also tend to give him damage to deal, while the defensive build won't. So he's hitting more often, and harder

Your ability score changes just hurt the game. It makes the +2 (now +1) stat items completely worthless, since they add absolutely nothing to the character.

As it stands, the flanking is broken to hell and back. I don't care what you say, a bunch of level 1 Goblin warriors should not have individually better than 50/50 odds of hitting a guy in full plate with a heavy shield. He has an AC 21 (9 from full plate, 2 from shield). The goblins, with a full surround, are working with a +14 from the surround (2 from base flank, then 2 more each for 6 goblins), +1 from size, and -1 for Str. That gives EACH of them a 70% chance to hit. The fact that he should be hit at some point is supposed to be represented by the fact that they normally each have a 10% chance to hit (+2 from flank), but just because someone is surrounded doesn't magically make EVERYONE massively more likely to hit him for damage.

And make those goblins into level 1 rogues, and he is dead, because they are all dealing an extra 2d6 damage. Oh, and because they're rogues, they took Weapon Finesse, so now, being goblins and having a +4 racial to Dex (and therefore an 18), they have a +19 to hit. They literally miss on a 1. And are dealing 8 instances of 1d4-1+2d6. Average damage there would be 68 damage. That downs my Level 5 bloodrager all the way from full raging health to dead, and that was before you halved my rage bonuses for no good reason.

[grarrrg]

Rogues, Monks, and Barbarians all use their Unchained counterparts. Seems to fix these otherwise weak classes


Rogues, meh, the Unchained is pretty much a straight bonus and if it's an option no one should want to take Orig-Rogue anyway.

Monks...the Unchained Monk is not really a big power boost. And it is NOT allowed to take ANY Orig-Monk Archetypes, which GREATLY decreases it's utility/potential. If "Unchained Monk is only Monk", then you should also blanket handwave that all (most?) Orig-Monk Archetypes CAN be taken with it.

Barbarian was never weak, it just had some unfortunate rules interactions when you got near 0-HP while Raging.
I'd argue that with the "make Rage-Cycling pointless" changes that they actually nerfed it a bit.

What about the "One Man Party" Summoner? Are they still free to choose the original version? This, if anything, should be the only class that is FORCED to choose the Unchained version.


Unchained Rogues and Ninjas

Sneak Attack is a Standard Action.
Sneak Attack damage is doubled (so a lv 1 Rogue sneak attacking a flat footed target deals an extra 3d6 damage. 2d6 from Sneak Attack, plus 1d6 for the enemy being flat-footed) and can be multiplied on a critical.


Does this changed ONLY apply to Rogues/Ninjas? Or to every class with Sneak Attack (or Precision Damage) dice?
Also, where is that extra "1d6 for flat-footed" coming from?

[Vhaidara]

The flat footed thing is another houserule he initially listed.

[heavyfuel]

[...]


[...]

Hmm... This is more feedback than antecipated for this thread. Tell you guys what. I've started a new thread to discuss how it woul be best to implement a "gang up" rule of some sort. See you there.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?439739-Implementing-Gang-up-rules&p=19778962#post19778962


My houserules for cavalier are:
Class Skills: The cavalier's class skills are Apprise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Geography)(Int), Knowledge (History)(Int), Knowledge (Local)(Int), Knowledge (Nobility)(Int), Knowledge (Religion)(Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Skills per Rank: 4 + Int Modifier.

Aristocrat (Ex): Cavalier gain a bonus equal to half their class level (minimum 1) on diplomacy checks.

Tactician (Ex): At 1st level, a cavalier receives a teamwork feat as a bonus feat. He must meet the prerequisites for this feat. As a standard action, the cavalier can grant a teamwork feat he possesses to all allies within 30 feet who can see and hear him. Allies retain the use of this bonus feat for 3 rounds plus 1 round for every two levels the cavalier possesses. Allies do not need to meet the prerequisites of these bonus feats. The cavalier can use this ability a number of times per day equal to his charisma modifier (minimum 1) at 1st level, plus one additional time per day at 5th level and for every 5 levels thereafter.

Resolve (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, the cavalier gains resolve that he can call upon to endure even the most devastating wounds and afflictions. He can use this ability once per day at 2nd level, plus one additional time per day for every two cavalier levels beyond 2nd. Whenever the cavalier defeats the target of his challenge, he regains one daily use of his resolve, up to his maximum number of uses per day. Defeating the target of his challenge usually involves reducing the target to 0 hit points or fewer, but the GM might rule that an enemy who surrenders or flees the battle is also defeated. He can use this resolve in a number of ways.
Determined: As a standard action, the cavalier can spend one use of his resolve to remove the fatigued, shaken, or sickened condition. If the cavalier is at least 8th level, he can alternatively remove the exhausted, frightened, nauseated, or staggered condition. If the condition has a duration longer than 1 hour or is permanent, this ability removes the condition for 1 hour, at which time the condition returns.
Resolute: Whenever the cavalier is required to make a Fortitude or Will save, he can spend one use of his resolve as an immediate action to roll twice and take the better result. He must decide to use this ability before he rolls the saving throw.
Unstoppable: When the cavalier is reduced to fewer than 0 hit points but not slain, he can spend one use of his resolve as an immediate action to instantly stabilise and remain conscious. He is staggered, but he does not fall unconscious and begin dying if he takes a standard action. He does fall unconscious if he takes additional damage from any source.

Noble's Influence (Ex): At seventh level, the cavalier gains a bonus equal to his class level on checks to gain capital in the form of influence.

Greater Tactician (Ex): At 9th level, the cavalier receives an additional teamwork feat as a bonus feat. He must meet the prerequisites for this feat. In addition, using the tactician ability is a swift action.

Greater Resolve (Ex): At 10th level, a cavalier can spend his resolve to negate some of his most grievous wounds. After a critical hit is confirmed against him, the cavalier can spend one use of his resolve as an immediate action to treat that critical hit as a normal hit. Effects that only trigger on a critical hit do not trigger when the cavalier uses this ability.

Honourable Stand (Ex): At 13th level, a cavalier can make an honourable stand, deciding to fight the target of his challenge to the bitter end, no matter the cost. He can make an honourable stand once per day at 13th level, plus one additional time per day at 18th level. Declaring an honourable stand is a swift action. While making an honourable stand, the cavalier is immune to the shaken, frightened, and panicked conditions. He does not fall unconscious while his hit point total is below 0. Finally, whenever a cavalier making an honourable stand must make a saving throw, he can spend one daily use of his resolve to reroll the saving throw after the first roll is made. He must take the result of the second roll, even if it is worse. If a cavalier making an honourable stand ever retreats from battle against his challenged foe, he loses the ability to make a challenge for 24 hours.

Master Tactician (Ex): At 17th level, the cavalier receives an additional teamwork feat as a bonus feat. He must meet the prerequisites for this feat. Whenever the cavalier uses the tactician ability, he grants any two teamwork feats that he knows.

True Resolve (Ex): At 18th level, a cavalier can spend uses of his resolve to avoid death. If he has at least two uses of his resolve remaining, he can spend all of the daily uses of his resolve that he has available to him to avoid death. Regardless of the source of the attack that would have killed him, he is left alive, at –1 hit points (or lower if he was already below –1), unconscious, and stable.

Last Stand (Ex): At 20th level, a cavalier can make a last stand once per day whenever he makes a challenge. While this challenge is in effect, all melee and ranged weapons deal the minimum amount of damage to the cavalier, unless the attack scored is a critical hit. In addition, the cavalier remains conscious and is not staggered while he is below 0 hit points. While using this ability, the cavalier cannot be killed by melee or ranged weapons unless they are wielded by the target of his challenge. Attacks made by opponents that are not the target of his challenge deal no damage when cavalier has 0 or fewer hit points. This ability has no effect on spells, environmental effects, supernatural abilities, or any other source of damage other than melee and ranged weapons. Such sources of damage affect him normally and can kill him (although they do not cause him to fall unconscious or to become staggered if they reduce his hit points below 0). This effect lasts until the challenge ends or the cavalier takes an offensive action against a target other than the target of his challenge.

Thanks! I'll take a more in depth look later.

Also, could you elaborate on the Cavalier's weaknesses and how your houserules fix them?

[heavyfuel]

Rogues, meh, the Unchained is pretty much a straight bonus and if it's an option no one should want to take Orig-Rogue anyway.

Monks...the Unchained Monk is not really a big power boost. And it is NOT allowed to take ANY Orig-Monk Archetypes, which GREATLY decreases it's utility/potential. If "Unchained Monk is only Monk", then you should also blanket handwave that all (most?) Orig-Monk Archetypes CAN be taken with it.

Barbarian was never weak, it just had some unfortunate rules interactions when you got near 0-HP while Raging.
I'd argue that with the "make Rage-Cycling pointless" changes that they actually nerfed it a bit.

What about the "One Man Party" Summoner? Are they still free to choose the original version? This, if anything, should be the only class that is FORCED to choose the Unchained version.

Does this changed ONLY apply to Rogues/Ninjas? Or to every class with Sneak Attack (or Precision Damage) dice?
Also, where is that extra "1d6 for flat-footed" coming from?

Sure, UnchMonks can take Monk archetypes. On case by case basis, but I'm usually pretty generous with these things.

Can you elaborate on the summoner? How I understood the class is that it was a Tier 2~3 uo until they got Gate. Is this wrong?

And yes, the Flat-Footed thing was there before. Basically, anyone flat-footed or helpless takes an extra 1d6 damage.

[Novawurmson]

It's worth noting that the Unchained Barbarian was meant to be a nerf, and it can be, depending on your build. Medium to high optimization standard barbarians can use immunity to fatigue to "rage cycle" - rapidly dropping and regaining rage to use "once per rage" abilities repeatedly. The Unchained Barbarian was stripped of all 1/rage abilities.

Have you considered using a point buy system instead of artificial stat caps? Even at a 25 point buy (the highest the CRB suggests using), you can't have more than two stats at an 18 before racial adjustments, and that's accepting three stats at 7.

[Frosty]

Meh, I'd go Flanking gives the +2 as normal, but then, each new "flanker" (person that surrounds the target) that actually attack gets a +1 bonus.

So, if attackers A, B, C, D all surround the target, and they attack in that order, the flanking bonus would be +2, +3, +4, +5

[grarrrg]

Can you elaborate on the summoner? How I understood the class is that it was a Tier 2~3 uo until they got Gate. Is this wrong?

Either version of the Summoner winds up in the same tier, just that the Unchained one is a bit worse.
The issue is that Orig-Summoner has "effectively" full casting progression, and a "Generally better than a Fighter" Eidolon. AND you can trick the Eidolon out to be a Skill-Monkey (at will!). AND access to very spammable Summon Monster. AND....

Un-Summoner at least dropped it down a couple pegs. The spell casting is _slightly_ weaker. Your Eidolon can do _any_thing, but not necessarily _every_thing like it used to.

Basically Un-Summoner is overall better balanced.

Also, no response to this:

(Sneak Attack) Does this change ONLY apply to Rogues/Ninjas? Or to every class with Sneak Attack (or Precision Damage) dice?
Because Vivisectionist still has Full Sneak dice, and various other classes have access to Sneak/Precision damage through Archetypes/Feats/etc...

[Milo v3]

Also, could you elaborate on the Cavalier's weaknesses and how your houserules fix them?

My fix makes it so their tactician ability can assist with spreading teamwork effects without the giant amounts of restrictions the class has normally, gave them a decent skill list that actually allows them to be knights, gave them a tiny bonus to diplomacy and the ability to generate influence faster for some out of combat use (though their low charisma means it still wont be very useful), and made it so they can do more than just charge at enemies by given them their alternate classes tanking survival abilities. Still, this fix would place the class at mid-tier 4 At Best.

[Psyren]

I'm with Kish on the "just play 5e" advice if bounded accuracy is your bag. PF is really not designed for it, particularly where the physical stats are concerned.


Sure, UnchMonks can take Monk archetypes. On case by case basis, but I'm usually pretty generous with these things.

I think grarrg was talking RAW - but even if you're allowing this via houserules, you run into another problem, namely that most old-monk archetypes are physically impossible because the things they replace are either optional ki powers or don't exist at all anymore.

[Novawurmson]

Re: The Summoner. As someone who GMed for a summoner levels 1-20, I ban them and anything that grants an eidolon now. A few key points to their OPness:

*Two pools of actions: You are effectively playing two characters. You would think that it'd be the same as, say, a druid's animal companion, but an eidolon is on a whole different level of power. For starters, the eidolon doesn't have to learn "tricks" like "attack": It won't cower in fear because you forgot to teach it to attack undead. You'll never have to make a Handle Animal check or spend actions getting it to do what you want; it always does exactly what you want, when you want it to.

*The Summoner's raw spellcasting: To say that the summoner gets the best 2/3 spellcasting list would be an understatement. Take a quick look at their 6th level spells - they're almost all discounted level 7-9 spells. Take dominate monster for example: 9th level wizard, 6th level summoner. The summoner can get it at level 16, a level before the wizard (two levels before the sorcerer). This is true at lower levels, too. Haste? 2nd level summoner spell, available at level 4, a level before the wizard, two levels before the sorcerer.

This is augmented by summon monster as a spell-like ability (standard action) with a duration of 1 minute/level (i.e. better than auto-extended; it's more like extended times extended times extended), and automatically known (i.e. +10 spells known). Would you take summon monster as a spell? Well, add 3+Cha to your highest level spell slot, except you're getting the equivalent of spells higher than what you're technically able to cast, which can themselves get you spellcasting creatures.

*The Eidolon's raw defensive stats: An eidolon gets a +16 bonus to natural armor, plus every base form gets at least a +2 bonus to natural armor. All eidolons start with Dex 12 minimum, and gain a +8 bonus to Dex before ability score bonuses from leveling up. With share spells, the summoner can easily throw mage armor and shield onto their eidolon. That's an AC of 10+5 (Dex)+18 (Nat)+4 (armor)+4 (shield)=41 before a single copper coin, evolution point, feat, or spell above level 1 is spent.

You'd think just having 15 HD would mean its HP would be a weakness. If you do manage to drop the eidolon to 0, the summoner can (as a free action) pump exactly as much HP as is needed into his eidolon to sustain it. This means that the eidolon effectively has 35 HD worth of hit points to draw from. Once you get life bond at level 14, the summoner can draw his eidolon's HP to himself (so at level 14, you're essentially dealing with an HD 25 creature with two rounds of actions that can be in two places at once). Its eidolon levels are d10 to the animal companion's d8, just to add insult to injury.

*The Eidolon's raw versatility: An eidolon has no restrictions on its feats (unlike an animal companion), and with BAB +1 at level 1, it qualifies for important feats like Power Attack earlier.

The eidolon gets a +8 bonus to Str before ability score bonuses from leveling up. This essentially cancels out their BAB 15 (which isn't bad to begin with), especially if they wield a weapon and then have 7 natural attacks for 10 attacks per round before anything like haste (which the summoner can easily provide them. An animal companion has a BAB of 12 at 20.

An eidolon gains 60 skill points at level 20 (i.e. enough to max 4 skills for it), while the animal companion gets 16. A fighter/paladin/etc. with Int 10 gets 40 skill points at 20. The summoner gets to choose 4 class skills for the eidolon. The summoner can give it a +8 racial (i.e. stacking with everything) bonus to a skill of his choice with the Skilled evolution, which is better than Skill Focus is at level 10, from level 1. You can use spells like the evolution surge line to grant it these bonuses of choice as needed.

And since we're getting to evolution points, the eidolon gets 26 of 'em at level 20, plus their 8 feats. A fighter gets 21 feats at level 20.

Evolutions are often strictly better than feats. For example, Improved Natural Armor (feat) grants +1 natural armor; Improved Natural Armor (evolution) grants +2. Take it the five times you're allotted, and that 41 I mentioned earlier becomes an AC 51. They also easily grant things difficult or impossible to get with feats, such as Huge size, invisibility, flying, pounce free combat maneuvers, raw stat increases, blindsight, or multiple motherlovin' heads.

I'd also like to emphasize that I let the player continue playing his Summoner. Part of it was out of morbid curiosity of how much more powerful the thing was going to get, but I ultimately had to do things like give the Rogue some free initiating to help the rest of the party keep up.

TL;DR: The Summoner has a spellcasting progression often better than the sorcerer's while also getting a flying, pouncing, Huge Fighter with more and better skills, minimum 10 attacks and minimum AC 41.

A very simple fix would be to let a player choose to either be an eidolon or a summoner. A slightly more complicated one would be to drop the summoner to d6 1/2 BAB, drop it to 4th level casting (with the same or slightly altered list, though), half the eidolon's evolution points, and put a cap of ~2 hp per class level per round transferred with life link and life bond.

[Frosty]

Summoners are still weaker than Wizards and sorcerers overall. They can't break the world in the insane ways the tier 1 classes can. Still, the unchained version may be for those groups that dont optimize as much.

[Milo v3]

Summoners are still weaker than Wizards and sorcerers overall. They can't break the world in the insane ways the tier 1 classes can. Still, the unchained version may be for those groups that dont optimize as much.

They have Gate and Simulacrum, so they can.

[Novawurmson]

Summoners are still weaker than Wizards and sorcerers overall. They can't break the world in the insane ways the tier 1 classes can. Still, the unchained version may be for those groups that dont optimize as much.

You're absolutely correct. Wizards and sorcerers also are weaker than Pun Pun, but that doesn't make the wizard and sorcerer good class design. I don't ban the summoner because it can cast gate, create demiplane, greater planar binding, and simulacrum; I ban the summoner because the numbers are incredibly out of whack.

Let's say there's a feat called Supernatural Recovery:

Supernatural Recovery
You recover hit points faster than most creatures.
Benefit: You gain fast healing 20.

You would ban this feat, or impose some kind of restriction on it. Perhaps if it had several feat prerequisites, scaled with level, or couldn't be taken until a certain level, it'd be fine. As is, it's completely inappropriate compared to the other defensive/healing options available at that level. It doesn't allow you to stop time, permanently stun an opponent without a save, create infinite clones of yourself, but the numbers on it are so inappropriate that it's unbalanced.

A better and real example of what I'm talking about would be the Leadership feat. It's near-universally banned or nerfed, because having a slightly weaker second character for the cost of a feat (even at level 7) is absurd. The summoner gets a second character at level 1 that is in many ways more powerful and/or more versatile than the weakest Pathfinder classes. Being better than the weaker Pathfinder classes isn't a bad thing: Getting two creatures that are both excellent for their roles is poor design. This is why my suggestion is to separate them or heavily nerf at least one of them.

[Firest Kathon]

Re: The Summoner. As someone who GMed for a summoner levels 1-20, I ban them and anything that grants an eidolon now. A few key points to their OPness:
[...]
If you do manage to drop the eidolon to 0, the summoner can (as a free action) pump exactly as much HP as is needed into his eidolon to sustain it.
While I agree with the other points you list (though in my opinion they are not too bad unless the player goes all-out OP on the class), this one is incorrect. The summoner can only shift HP via Life Link (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner#TOC-Life-Link-Su-) if the damage would put it at -Con HP. So you cannot use it if the damage is only enough to put it from positive into the negatives, only if it is enough to kill it outright. I would argue that in most cases, the damage would only put it into the negatives, and in that case you cannot use the ability.

Whenever the eidolon takes enough damage to send it back to its home plane, the summoner can sacrifice any number of hit points. Each hit point sacrificed in this way prevents 1 point of damage done to the eidolon. This can prevent the eidolon from being sent back to its home plane.

Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score.