Track as a skill?

[Koga]

Why not instead of a feat make Track into a skill? It would make alot more sense, and ofcourse it'd be wisdom based.

[TheOOB]

In my games I keep track working the same way but make it so it doesn't require a feat. Anyone with ranks in survival can track.

[Inyssius Tor]

Yeah, I would be inclined to do the same.

Koga: When it comes to skills, I'm a lumper (not a splitter). I'm of the opinion that Hide and Move Silently should be rolled into Stealth, and that Spot and Listen should be rolled into Perception. Furthermore, Survival seems like it should normally be used for tracking. Adding a separate Track skill just seems to me like adding another Decipher Script.

[Koga]

Well The Koga thought of it to make wisdom a more balanced stat, wisdom and charisma tend to get shafted.

He would combine spot and search into a wisdom based "sight" stat. But that too is to ultimately give wisdom some recognition. (Outside of spellcasting)

[TheOOB]

Heres how I condense the skill list

Hide + Move Silently = Stealth
Spot + Listen + Search = Perception
Open Lock + Disable Device = Mechanics
Handle Animal + Ride = Beast Handling
Climb + Jump + Swim = Athletics
Balance + Tumble = Acrobatics
Decipher Script + Forgery = Scribing
Escape Artist + Sleight of Hand + Use Rope = Handiwork

Other changes
Appraise = Folded into relevent knowledge/craft skill
Craft(alchemy) = Can be taken by non-spellcasters
Perform = Works like 3.0 perform
Survival = Doesn't need track feat.

What this does is make some skills that might otherwise not be taken (such as balance, swim, jump, ect) more attractive, and pairs up skills that logically would always be taken together (hide and move silently for example). This also serves to free up peoples skill points, and encourages them to take craft, knowledge, and profession skills, as well as learn more cross-class.

[Human Paragon 3]

Would this not give intelligent Rogues full ranks in virtually every skill? Cuts down on the customization of characters through which skills they choose.

[ChomZ]

I like condensing it.. I agree that a lot of the skills are too related to be seperate; hide and move silent are perfect examples..
I also like the fact that it means you can take craft and knowledge more easily.. I always had trouble figuring out how to get those ones

[brian c]

Heres how I condense the skill list

Hide + Move Silently = Stealth
Spot + Listen + Search = Perception
Open Lock + Disable Device = Mechanics
Handle Animal + Ride = Beast Handling
Climb + Jump + Swim = Athletics
Balance + Tumble = Acrobatics
Decipher Script + Forgery = Scribing
Escape Artist + Sleight of Hand + Use Rope = Handiwork

Other changes
Appraise = Folded into relevent knowledge/craft skill
Craft(alchemy) = Can be taken by non-spellcasters
Perform = Works like 3.0 perform
Survival = Doesn't need track feat.

What this does is make some skills that might otherwise not be taken (such as balance, swim, jump, ect) more attractive, and pairs up skills that logically would always be taken together (hide and move silently for example). This also serves to free up peoples skill points, and encourages them to take craft, knowledge, and profession skills, as well as learn more cross-class.

I like the idea of skill condensing in theory, but I think you went too far.

Escape Artist + Sleight of Hand + Use Rope = Handiwork

Not really that related... you want to learn to tie knots, and in the process you also become a good pickpocket? and good at squeezing through tight spaces? Similarly, being a good swimmer shouldn't make you a great long jumper or climber. The rest of them seem okay, but those are a bit much for me. Effectively, you're giving people more skill points and giving full synergy (not just +2 for 5 ranks)

[TheOOB]

Would this not give intelligent Rogues full ranks in virtually every skill? Cuts down on the customization of characters through which skills they choose.

Well, as it stands, rogues are ironically the most skill starved class out there. Sure they have the most skill points, but skill use is their primary role in the group, and inless they have a good int they often times dont have all the skills they should like to have.

For example, take a level 1 non-human rogue with 10 int. By the simply virtue of being a rogue they should have a good amout of skill customization, but when you look at the kind of skills most any rogue is required to take to fill their group role

4 ranks Disable Device
4 ranks Hide
4 ranks Move Silently
4 ranks Open Lock
4 ranks Listen
4 ranks Search
4 ranks Spot

thats 28 out of 32 skill points, which gives you a whole 4 skill points to play around with. Not all that impressive. What if you wanted to play a social rogue, an athletic rogue? Sure a human rogue with a high int would get most the skills, but isn't that the point of a rogue?

[Human Paragon 3]

Well, as it stands, rogues are ironically the most skill starved class out there. Sure they have the most skill points, but skill use is their primary role in the group, and inless they have a good int they often times dont have all the skills they should like to have.

For example, take a level 1 non-human rogue with 10 int. By the simply virtue of being a rogue they should have a good amout of skill customization, but when you look at the kind of skills most any rogue is required to take to fill their group role

4 ranks Disable Device
4 ranks Hide
4 ranks Move Silently
4 ranks Open Lock
4 ranks Listen
4 ranks Search
4 ranks Spot

thats 28 out of 32 skill points, which gives you a whole 4 skill points to play around with. Not all that impressive. What if you wanted to play a social rogue, an athletic rogue? Sure a human rogue with a high int would get most the skills, but isn't that the point of a rogue?

Still, I think with that amount of condensing, a Human Rogue with Int 18 would have more skill points than he has class skills.

[Khantalas]

You know, there is a reason why Search is Intelligence-based and not Wisdom-based. Because it isn't about seeing things, it is about knowing where to look.

So excuse the cringing when I hear about making Search part of Perception.

Then again, I like my Notice skill and my Super-Senses, since they're shiny, oh so shiny... Without penalties up to at least a hundred feet...

[Matthew]

Yeah, Track is silly as a Feat, as is Run, I think. The problem, though, as others have indicated is that Skill Points are already spread too thinly in D&D. TheOOB's method is probably the best, with the Feat Track becoming Survival Focus, I would suppose (i.e. for Rangers and such).

[Wizzardman]

Hide + Move Silently = Stealth
Spot + Listen + Search = Perception
Escape Artist + Sleight of Hand + Use Rope = Handiwork



I like everything in your suggestion except these three. Everything else is really a good idea, that will save a lot of skill points that would normally be wasted, but there are a few little details in these three that I feel I should nitpick.

I kinda dislike the fact that you've added listen into the perception skill. While I can understand why you'd do this--it is a perception-based activity--there are some nuances of play that you'd lose, and would make certain spells overpowered or unplayable. This would make blind characters, for example, rather impossible, as they'd be unable to use an uncertain half of one skill. Now, you could apply a modifier to the skill for blind or blinded characters, but that seems a little cheesy, and has very little effect on high-level characters.

Hide and Move Silently together as Stealth pose a much larger problem. These two together make certain spells overpowered--for example, Invisiblity gives a +20 to hide checks while moving. Normally, a person with high Listen might be able to hear them; but as Hide and Move Silently have been lumped together into one, Invisibility would grant a +20 on both sides, removing the advantage. Additionally, this would make Silence spells obsolete, except for destroying casters.

Finally, I dislike that addition of Escape Artist and Sleight of Hand into the group with Use Rope. While I'll admit that Use Rope is possibly one of the least-used skills in D&D, it just doesn't have the same flavor as Escape Artist and Sleight of Hand, so it doesn't seem to fit well in the group. Maybe if you put it in with Survival, it might work better. After all, your ability to escape knots may be helped by knowing how to make the knots, but it doesn't depend on that knowledge.

[Peregrine]

Well, let me be the voice of dissent, not on the skills condensing but on the feats. I think Track is fine as a feat. Feats are tricks and talents you have rather than things you train up. The Track feat is the talent of using your Survival skill ranks in a new way, to follow (non-obvious) tracks. If you make it a skill, that's another skill people have to take. If you make it just a normal part of Survival, it takes something away from the specialness of interpreting and following obscure tracks.

And Run? Funnily enough, I was thinking about this just this afternoon... I reckon it's a feat because the way tactical movement works in D&D means that movement speed as a skill just wouldn't work. Either it'd have too low a payoff with low ranks, or it'd be too easily pumped to absurdity at high ranks... or both. If you find a good contest-resolution system for races between characters of equal movement speed, the Run feat becomes a good way to model 'those who are good at running' vs 'those who aren't'.

[Matthew]

Heh, well that certainly is another view. Of course, you could say that Disable Device should be a Feat that uses the Open Locks Skill in a new way... or vice versa.

I have found an actual Run Skill to be very useful in (A)D&D play, generally when running chases or the like. It's true that Track is another way of using Survival, but I think what is being proposed is not that it is another Feat, but that it is automatically part of the Survival Skill, rather than by way of a Feat.