Help me create Mr. Mundane! (No Sp, No Su, All Ex)

[Eldonauran]

Greetings Playground!

I've reached a point where I've played just about every class or watched them played from the other side of the DM screen. I've found enjoyment in every class and found the niche that I like to play (pretty much any class that reaches max of 6th level spells and have the ability to adapt to situations easily). However, in finding this niche, I've earned myself a reputation as someone who likes to 'dabble' in multiple classes, archetypes and other options (even when I stick to strictly 3 books, including core). Anyway, I want to break away from this label and show my fellow players that you don't have mix and match multiple ingredients to cook up a powerful character.

So! What I would like to do is create a character that is purely mundane. No spell-like abilities. No supernatural abilities. No spell casting ability at all! If the character ever uses such abilities it must be through a UMD check or be from one of the magical items they have acquired in their journey. Most of all, and this is important, I want the character to be able to contribute fairly well. I'm not expecting anyone to build the character for me. I'm just fishing for ideas to start with.

Now, for the rules!

Point buy: 15
Races: Prefer Human, but any similar race could work
Classes: Martial oriented. Skills will be important too! (Slayer maybe?)
Limitations: Up to two classes (VMC counts as a class), maximum of one archetype (one, not one for each class. Just one).

[Dienekes]

Well the obvious one, Warblades are all Ex and are martial monsters. Their skills are not terrible, but not particularly good either. Only 4 + Int skills per level, but they have a reason to have Int as a secondary stat. Their skill list is ok, with Diplomacy and Tumble giving them an edge over most other martial focused classes, like the fighter or barbarian.

A 1 level dip into Barbarian can give Pounce. And after that it's usually suggested to take an additional level in a class outside of the Warblade because of how the maneuver system works. Fighter is good for an extra feat, or Rogue could be good to nab a bunch of skills. But if you're really staying firm on the only 2 classes thing, 2 levels of Barb before going straight Warblade is a fine build.

[Tuvarkz]

Path of War Warlord or Warder can be run without depending on supernatural stuff, as long as you keep to melee.

[IZ42]

Well the obvious one, Warblades are all Ex and are martial monsters. Their skills are not terrible, but not particularly good either. Only 4 + Int skills per level, but they have a reason to have Int as a secondary stat. Their skill list is ok, with Diplomacy and Tumble giving them an edge over most other martial focused classes, like the fighter or barbarian.

A 1 level dip into Barbarian can give Pounce. And after that it's usually suggested to take an additional level in a class outside of the Warblade because of how the maneuver system works. Fighter is good for an extra feat, or Rogue could be good to nab a bunch of skills. But if you're really staying firm on the only 2 classes thing, 2 levels of Barb before going straight Warblade is a fine build.

He's asking for Pathfinder.

Other than that, second in PoW, but if it's 1st party only, Brawler is pretty good. Unchained Rogue is pretty great as well, and I think Slayer is also all mundane.

[Novawurmson]

if it's 1st party only, Brawler is pretty good.

Yeah, Pummeling Style Brawler is a shortcut to "pretty decent mundane."

The base Barbarian is surprisingly entirely (Ex), meaning it's also available for VMC. Unfortunately, the Beast Totem line is (Su), but you can still be effective with rage powers like Strength Surge/Knockdown. Superstition is amusingly (Ex), and the fluff fits.

[Psyren]

My recommendation is to throw in the Combat Stamina system on whatever class you pick. All the abilities are non-magical (if the feat itself is) and it adds even more tactical depth to whatever character you ultimately choose.

[IZ42]

Right, I forgot about that sub-system. The thing about Combat Stamina is it's only really gonna be used if it's given to martial classes for free. So yeah, if you can get Combat Stamina for free, and aren't using DSP, you can still have a pretty effective martial character.

[NightbringerGGZ]

A Slueth Investigator trades away Alchemy (Su) for Slueth's Luck (Ex). This acts like Grit or Panache, only it is skill and defensive in focus. Dip a level of Swashbuckler to combine your Luck & Panache pool and get Dex to damage early on. You're now a good melee combatant and an amazing Skill monkey.

[Psyren]

Right, I forgot about that sub-system. The thing about Combat Stamina is it's only really gonna be used if it's given to martial classes for free. So yeah, if you can get Combat Stamina for free, and aren't using DSP, you can still have a pretty effective martial character.

Even if you have to buy your way in it's worth it. The feat by itself lets you add a competence bonus to your attacks at 1st-level, and you can refill the pool after every encounter for all-day longevity.

[Eldonauran]

Thanks for all the feedback! None at our table are familiar with the combat stamina variant rules so we won't be making use of those. Also, we are keeping things 1st party so Path of War is not an option either.

I did a bit of looking and the following is a list of all the class (1st party) that have mainly "Ex." abilities on their main chassis. Some have "Su" as choices within the class features, but we will be ignoring those choices. Archetypes that make the class a legal choice are in parenthesis. Asterisks fit criteria in variant multiclass option.

Barbarian*
Brawler
Cavalier*
Fighter*
Gunslinger*
Investigator (Sleuth)
Monk (Martial Artist < 15 lvls)
Rogue*
Ranger* (Skirmisher / Trapper)
Samurai
Slayer
Swashbuckler


-------------------------------------

I've pretty much settled on Brawler at this point. That Martial Flexibility is just great. At this point, we'll decide if any archetypes are more flavorful towards being a highly flexible martial character. If not, we'll look at possible multiclassing (even variant multiclassing) to improved combat prowess.

One thing I've noticed is a lot of builds require Brawlers to completely DUMP charisma into the abyss. I don't plan on doing that. Lowest CHA I can tolerate is an 8 (with racial penalty) or a 9 without.

[Roog]

You could also add Monk (Martial Artist) to that list.

[IZ42]

You could also add Monk (Martial Artist) to that list.

Quivering Palm is still a (Su) ability. Otherwise good thought.

[Andreaz]

Path of War Warlord or Warder can be run without depending on supernatural stuff, as long as you keep to melee.That even includes high damage and a "you didn't harm me. Because **** you" blanket defenses at very high levels!

[Eldonauran]

You could also add Monk (Martial Artist) to that list. Quivering Palm is still a (Su) ability. Otherwise good thought.

Yep, that is the only reason it didn't make my list. Although, Martial Artist Monk is definitely an option if we never reach level 15 of that class. Hmmm... I'll add it to the list.

[IZ42]

It's pretty nice for a Monk/Barbarian Build or something similar due to the lack of alignment restriction on the class, as well.

[Andreaz]

Monk has a bunch of SU abilities.

[IZ42]

Monk has a bunch of SU abilities.

The archetype in question, Martial Artist, replaces all if those except for Quivering Palm with (Ex) abilities.

[Eldonauran]

After further review of the available options, I have narrowed down the choices to a single archetype.

Shield Champion Brawler

This one archetype replaces maneuver training with the option to perform certain combat maneuvers at range, with a thrown shield that returns (also replaced brawler strike). That is exceptionally useful, especially when we can use martial flexibility to tailor our CMB and CMD to the occasion.

Now, we are left with the questions:
Should we take Brawler to 20th level?
If so, will we make use of the variant multiclass rules and which one?
If the answer is not to take to 20th level, what class will be multiclass into and to what degree?

Possible (variant) multiclass options are listed in an above post. The ones that are most appealing are:

Barbarian: Rage (Greater Rage), Rage Powers, Uncanny Dodge, and Damage Reduction
Cavalier: Order, Tactician and Challenges
Fighter: Bravery (hello low will save!), Armor Training, Weapon Training.
Rogue: Trapfinding (nah), Sneak Attack (yes!), Evasion, and (Improved) Uncanny Dodge


Any archetype that removes Martial Flexibility was immediately removed from my list of acceptable archetypes. I believe that class feature is crucial to a build like this. Mutagenic Mauler was instantly a no go because it gave a supernatural ability. Snakebite Striker? Sneak attack is not worth losing flexibility.

Strangler and VMC Rogue seem to go together fairly well but I think it gave up too much.

The Exemplar is VERY interesting as it appears to give Martial Flexibility added options at the cost of unarmed strike and close combat mastery. This seems like a big trade BUT giving up maneuver training, AC bonus and brawlers strike also give the Brawler the Tactician ability AND an Extraordinary version of the Bardic Performance ability. I was immediately drawn to this because it makes the Brawler able to set into the support role rather easily and feels like it combines the Bard and Cavalier VMC together in one package, allowing another choice to be stacked into the mix. I could easily see making an Exemplar Brawler with VMC Rogue. I'm not sure how this change will effect the overall build ... VMC Barbarian might be a better choice to help offset the costs paid in combat effectiveness.

[Vhaidara]

Fighter vmc isn't worth it. Bravery is not something worth relying on, you'd be better spending your feat on Iron Will.

Barbarian and cavalier are both solid options for you. Barbarian if you want to beat people to death, cavalier if you want more supportive type abilities.

Rogue is meh on the setup you seem to be going for. Sneak attack is best used on setups going for raw damage, but you seem to want to do more with the maneuvers.

[Eldonauran]

Fighter vmc isn't worth it. Bravery is not something worth relying on, you'd be better spending your feat on Iron Will.

Barbarian and cavalier are both solid options for you. Barbarian if you want to beat people to death, cavalier if you want more supportive type abilities.

Rogue is meh on the setup you seem to be going for. Sneak attack is best used on setups going for raw damage, but you seem to want to do more with the maneuvers.

After some more thought, I find myself in agreement with you. Many of the VMC offer the first 3 or 4 levels of a class spread over 11 levels in the VMC progression. Some of the really good ones we can't use because this is Ex only.

I think I will swap the archetype Shield Champion for Exemplar, and stack Cavalier VMC on top of it. This seems to offer the most versatility and support, while maintaining a good balance of bonus combat feats, martial flexibility, and other support abilities. It also gives another Tactician ability to work with at level 11, doubling our ability to use it.

Any thoughts on which Order I should pursue? I think the Eastern Star (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/orders/paizo---cavalier-orders/order-of-the-eastern-star) would be ideal.

[Molosse]

Gotta say, Combat Stamina doesn't seem like a bad feat choice even without it being granted for free. From levels 1-5 it's a +1 to hit by itself near every round of combat. Beyond that, when you start taking other feats, it provides an increasingly wider benefit.

Beyond that? Examplar (OoDragon Cavalier VMC) isn't bad. Make sure to grab Chained Challenge, and some decent Cha, by level 7.

[upho]

After some more thought, I find myself in agreement with you. Many of the VMC offer the first 3 or 4 levels of a class spread over 11 levels in the VMC progression. Some of the really good ones we can't use because this is Ex only.

I think I will swap the archetype Shield Champion for Exemplar, and stack Cavalier VMC on top of it. This seems to offer the most versatility and support, while maintaining a good balance of bonus combat feats, martial flexibility, and other support abilities. It also gives another Tactician ability to work with at level 11, doubling our ability to use it.

Any thoughts on which Order I should pursue? I think the Eastern Star (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/orders/paizo---cavalier-orders/order-of-the-eastern-star) would be ideal.Hmm... I personally find the Shield Champion to have enormous potential, at least during the first 10-15 levels. Though it may not be what you're looking for, don't underestimate the "Throw Shield" feature - it can enable simply astounding large area control combos with components already granted by, or highly accessible to, the Shield Champion. Here's an example of such a control combo I've experimented with, this one being particularly suitable for defender-/tank-types (copied from the Paizo forums):

This tank-/defender-centric combo demands a lot of resources, is highly dependent on access to specific items, and is also useless against the many enemies immune to trip. But at least as far as I can tell from my play testing, once it starts to get going I think it's just hilariously effective in many combat scenarios, beyond comparison to that of any other martial control combo limited to Paizo sources I've ever seen in play.

It's key component is Wolf Trip. Or more specifically, the following line in the feat's benefit description:

"While using Wolf Style, whenever you successfully trip a creature, as a free action you may choose an available square adjacent to you for the tripped creature to land prone in."

By itself and at first glance, this isn't anything spectacular. When added to a rather classic melee trip combo with Combat Reflexes, Greater Trip, Vicious Stomp and a boosted melee reach, it allows for the Vicious Stomp AoO to be triggered if the target was tripped in a non-adjacent space using a reach weapon, and it can also make it harder for a tripped monster to get away and chew on squishy allies. Useful if the goal is to ramp up damage through AoOs, and it can be very good for locking down a target when combined with other melee control and debuff abilities. But it's not exactly enabling anything revolutionary, and it's typically not as vital as many other feats are for dedicated trip or control builds.

However, as Wolf Trip has no range limit whatsoever, imagine if we could trip an enemy from, say, up to more than 300 feet away? And imagine if we could do that with every attack in a full attack, on top of dealing normal damage? And perhaps trigger tons of AoOs while we're at it? Can we do that?

Yes we can!

And here are the best options I've found to make it happen:

A. The 7th level benefit of the Throw Shield feature of the Shield Champion brawler archetype: "At 7th level, a shield champion can use a thrown shield to perform a bull rush, dirty trick, disarm, reposition, or trip combat maneuver as if she were making a melee shield bash attack."

B. The Maelstrom Shield specific magic shield (14,170 gp) benefit: "When used to make a shield bash attack, the shield's wielder can make a trip attack as a free action against the same target without provoking an attack of opportunity from the creature being tripped."

C. The distance magic weapon ability, and preferably some basic ranged feats.

D. The Shield Slam feat and preferably the Greater Bull Rush and Shield Master feats (which can be gained through the Shield Champion archetype). Neither are strictly necessary, but triggering more AoO's, additional forced movement of targets and dual-wielding cheap thrown shields makes the combo a lot more potent.

E. A blinkback belt and the Quick Draw feat. Again, neither are strictly needed, at least for dealing with a single target. But since a thrown shield is able to cover enormous areas, having several ranged attacks per round allows for impressive mass-control capacity, one of the unique major potential strengths of the combo.

When combined with the previously mentioned "standard" trip combo, the end result is a highly versatile shield bash attack packed with control mechanics that can be repeated several times per round, requiring no additional actions but can be pimped up with several AoOs. The following details the events triggered by a single such "Black Hole" shield bash, though whether all or just a few are included and the exact order in which they're triggered can, as far as I can tell from RAW, be modified for each attack:

1. Shield bash attack, melee or thrown with a 60 ft range, made as a part of any action including one or more attacks, rolled as normal and dealing damage as normal (Throw Shield).

2. Free bull rush attempt if the initial shield bash attack hits, using the die roll of that initial attack for the combat maneuver check (Shield Slam).

3. Successful bull rush triggers AoOs from allies (Greater Bull Rush).

4. Free trip attempt regardless of whether the initial attack hits or misses (Maelstrom Shield). A few important details:
RAW, nothing specifies whether the trip attempt must be resolved before or after any bull rush attempt, or even before or after determining whether the initial attack hits. I assume this means the first roll made in the entire attack can actually be the trip check.
As far as I can tell, a free action attack (such as this trip attempt) that is not replacing a normal attack is rolled at full BAB unless otherwise noted, even if the event the free attack accompanies happens to be an iterative attack using a lower BAB.
In accordance with the FAQ regarding free action combat maneuver checks triggered by attacks, the trip attempt granted by the Maelstrom Shield can be made even if the triggering shield bash is made outside the attacker's turn, such as when making an AoO.
5. The shield returns to the blinkback belt and can be immediately drawn again as a free action (Blinkback Belt). This may happen more than once, for example after making the initial shield bash and after making the trip attempt. (Though it probably has no impact on the mechanics of this combo, the belt's description can be interpreted to say an associated weapon always returns after each separate attack has been resolved, which in this case would result in the shield being thrown more than once during the course of the entire attack.)

6. Target moved as free action and falls prone in a free adjacent space of the attacker's choice if the trip attempt succeeds (Wolf Trip).

7. Successful trip attempt triggers AoOs from allies as well as an additional shield bash from the attacker (Greater Trip).

8. Vicious Stomp triggers AoO by the target falling prone (Vicious Stomp).

9. The shield bash AoO triggers a second bull rush (Shield Slam).

10. Second successful bull rush triggers AoOs from allies (Greater Bull Rush).

Note that no AoOs have to be made for the basic control mechanic to work since both the trip attempt and the moving of a tripped target to adjacent are free actions. The AoOs are just gravy. And as mentioned, as far as I can tell the attacker can change the order of the above quite significantly.

In conclusion, during a single full attack, a build affected by haste or similar with two maelstrom shields along with the full Two-Weapon Fighting feat chain, Combat Reflexes and a Dex of 40 could make all of the above combo up to eight times against as many enemies, each target risking being hit by a total of three damage-dealing attacks on top of being bull rushed twice, tripped, moved into a poor position and hit by several additional AoOs from the attacker's allies. But even without a high Dex score or using a single AoO, the combo still allows a defender to attack several distant enemies and gathering them up flat on their bellies within melee threat range.

I guess it's obvious why I call it the "Black Hole Control Combo"... :smalltongue:



Here's a quick build idea for the above combo with the limitations mentioned in the OP:

Class and Feat Progression (Human) Note: retraining is your friend!
1 shieldchamp 1 Power Attack, Bonus Feats Far Shot, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Unarmed Strike, Two-Weapon Fighting, Martial Flex Feat Improved Bull Rush
2 shieldchamp 2 Bonus Combat Feat Point-Blank Shot
3 shieldchamp 3 Precise Shot
4 fighter 1 Bonus Combat Feat Quick Draw
5 fighter 2 Dirty Fighting, Bonus Combat Feat Improved Trip
6 shieldchamp 4 -
7 shieldchamp 5 Greater Trip, Bonus Combat Feat Combat Reflexes
8 shieldchamp 6 Martial Flex Feat Greater Bull Rush
9 shieldchamp 7 Shield Slam
10 shieldchamp 8 Bonus Feat Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Bonus Combat Feat Wolf Style
11 fighter 3 Shield Master
12 fighter 4 Bonus Combat Feat Wolf Trip
13 shieldchamp 9 Vicious Stomp, (Bonus Feat Greater Shield Focus once you have Shield Focus)
Item Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid in Wayfinder (2,000 gp) Weapon Familiarity (throwing shield) and Weapon Focus (throwing shield)

Ability Scores 15-point buy
Str 23 - 16 base, +2 racial, +3 level, +2 belt
Dex 14 - 12 base, +2 belt
Con 16 - 14 base, +2 belt
Int 9 - 9 base
Wis 15 - 13 base, +2 headband
Cha 7 - 7 base

Gear
Shield 1 (53,220 gp)
Base Shield Properties (220 gp): heavy steel shield (20 gp), throwing (50 gp), masterwork (150 gp)
Magic Shield Properties (35,000 gp): maelstrom (10,000 gp*), +4 enhancement, bashing (+1 cost)
Magic Weapon Properties (18,000 gp): +1 enhancement, dueling (+1 cost), distance (+1 cost)

Shield 2 (19,220 gp)
Base Shield Properties (220 gp): heavy steel shield (20 gp) throwing (50 gp), masterwork (150 gp)
Magic Shield Properties (19,000 gp): maelstrom (10,000 gp*), +2 enhancement, bashing (+1 cost)
Magic Weapon Properties: - (add impact weapon when affordable)
*This excludes the 4,170 gp of a +1 bashing masterwork heavy steel shield included in the market price listed for the Maelstrom Shield.

Other
+1 brawling mithral breastplate (7,200 gp), belt of physical blinkback hurling perfection +2 (33,500), headband of wis +2 (4,000 gp), cloak of resistance +4 (16,000 gp), gauntlets of the skilled maneuver (trip) (4,000 gp), cracked opalescent white pyramid in wayfinder (2,000 gp), 1,860 gp

Ranged Shield Bash Attack (Shield 1, within 60 ft.) +24 (13 bab, 6 str, 1 wf, 4 enhance)
Shield Bash Free Trip (Shield 1, within 60 ft.) +34 (24 as above, +8 dueling, +2 gauntlets)

[Eldonauran]

***Awesome-sauce***

Excellent advice! I am very tempted to try that out. I appreciate you sharing the information and adapting it to the prerequisites I outlined. I think I'll have to stick with the Exemplar for now, as my urge to play a Martial-oriented (and effective!) character with support abilities and adaptability has a slightly stronger pull. I will definitely bring one of these Wolf Style Shield Champions to the battlefield if this character meets an untimely demise.


Gotta say, Combat Stamina doesn't seem like a bad feat choice even without it being granted for free. From levels 1-5 it's a +1 to hit by itself near every round of combat. Beyond that, when you start taking other feats, it provides an increasingly wider benefit.

Beyond that? Examplar (OoDragon Cavalier VMC) isn't bad. Make sure to grab Chained Challenge, and some decent Cha, by level 7.

I've been doing some research on the Combat Stamina system since the thread is highly recommending it. I agree that taking the feat (if it isn't given for free) would be quite useful and I might be able to get away with it if I introduce it slowly (one feat at a time).

Combat Expertise is one of the main feats I will be taking (either as a character feat or bonus feat) as it is a prerequisite to a LOT of other feats, and I plan on going with the Eastern Star Order, which gives DR and saving throw bonuses for using that feat. Combat Stamina allows me to ignore the penalty to hit, while getting more dodge bonuses.


Ok, here is the first level plan as of right now:

Human
Str 16 (14+2), Dex 13, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 14
Traits: (open to suggestions!)
Feats: Steadfast Determination, Combat Stamina, Psychic Sensitivity (Order bonus)
Martial Flex: Power Attack, Combat reflexes, etc (whatever is most useful)


Feats to acquire via character levels: Lingering performance, Chain Challenge. Probably going to retrain Combat Stamina to Lingering performance at 2nd level and pick up Combat Stamina as a bonus combat feat... At 7th level, swap 5th level character feat for Chain Challenge.

A question ... Since the character gets Bardic Performances (or an ability that counts like one for feats/abilities), would that allow the taking of a Bardic Masterpiece? My immediate thought is 'No' and a more thought out response is 'Masterpieces are supernatural, so it doesn't matter'.