Champion of Darkness! Enemy of Puppies! (Antipaladin)

[ThinkMinty]

Paladins are too...lawful for me to play properly. Antipaladin, on the other hand, sounds alarmingly fun as an escapist/puppykicker kind of experience.

So, any recommendations for the Antipaladin, build-wise?

[Geddy2112]

Paladins are LG, but the G is more important than the L. Likewise, antipaladins are CE, but the E is more important than the C. Food for thought when building either.

Antipaladins are big nasty damage machines, trading the healing of the paladin for more damage via negative energy.

I suggest this guide (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9vv1a7v3y5BSGpObWxScUs1YlU/edit?pli=1) for build advice.

[Thealtruistorc]

Never send a Human to do the job of an Orc...

Antipaladins, I don't care what Paizo says or draws about them, are not just an escapist fantasy for those who want to kick premature mammals around. Shoving your foot in a puppy's face does as much for evil as urinating on a dark wizard's lawn does for good, which is to say NOTHING! If injuring unintelligent creatures is your ultimate ambition, your dark master could put you to better use as food for his demonic horde (gods don't employ just any old schmuck). There are two things that every antipaladin player should remember at all times: "Objective law and good are falsehoods" and "Go Big or Go Home". Fail to follow these edicts and you wind up as the villain of an 80s kids film, and would likely be thrown to the wayside just easily once that dance-off to save the rec center comes along.

Any antipaladin that you want to be more than a generic enemy should have a cause, an end which they seek to acheive for which law and good provide obstacles. You carry the burden of that cause, and it falls to you to reach it by any means necessary. Such causes could include freedom, equality, opportunity, truth, all those noble things that your white knight kin claim to stand for but in your view do nothing but obstruct. Just as paladins try to reassure people of the good in the world, you do everything in your power to tear those illusions down. Make a spectacle and revel in the horror and despair you cause, because it gets people thinking. Is good really in their best interest? Does law really protect anyone or anything? Those are the kinds of questions you should leave in your wake, bouncing around in the heads of everyone who just saw you ravage their entire city in a night as the gods and heroes did nothing to stop you.

If such figures do get in your way, that's what smite good is for. Prove that the fools have no power over you, that nothing can turn back the tides of darkness as they bring the universe to its knees. You are stronger than the chains that bind you, and as desolation incarnate have a duty to spread your demented revelations across the world. As you travel your awesome might will draw others into the darkness, and in the end you will leave this world knowing that thousands of others will carry on your legacy of madness.

Kick a puppy and everyone just thinks "what a jerk." Kick the world people thought was stable and everyone thinks about why they grew so attached to it in the first place.

[Spore]

It is only worth it if you can use their suffering as energy for your own spells and doomsday device. But mostly sentient tortures victims are far superior in style.

Antipaladin isn't even the kind of "Darth Vader" evil because he was definetely LE with a tendency towards good after he finally got a good will save after the Emperor's brainwashing and 16 years of botched saves. They should be more vile in nature yet they lack the simple powers to truly make them a superior evil than any spellcaster. You can infect yourself with disease (while being immune) and bring down a whole society, letting it spiral into chaos. But there's nothing a competent CE cleric can't do better. You're basically just the attack dog when the Paladins and divine beings attack.

Antipaladin always felt like an NPC class to me. Their powers are terrible at fighting OTHER evil guys. And if the good side responds properly your powers are useless. Smite Good vs. Smite Evil is like epic rocket tag. Your demonic minion just burns up in the wake of a decently played paladin. A fear focussed build does NOTHING against a paladin (yes your aura brings down his immunity but his saves are still as high as yours - don't count on anything beyond shaken). He can make his saves against Touch of Corruption (a standard action for you) but you cannot save against his built-in swift action selfhealing.

I prefer any evil Inquisitor build to an Antipaladin mainly because Bane and Judgment can be used against double-crossing "allies". You can kill the demon that pacted with you and now needs you as their blood sacrifice. You can hunt the CN slavemaster that promised you slaves but tries to flee with them now. And I feel an evil background requires far more skill points (for stealth, diplomacy, perception, bluff, know religion and many more) because most maneuverings require to lie, hide, see ambushes and know forbidden rituals.

[Milo v3]

Never send a Human to do the job of an Orc...
And yet orcs suck as antipaladins. :smalltongue:

Also, harming a sentient creature that cannot fight back is evil. Same reason a a 6th level antipaladin killing 1st level commoners is still evil.

Though, personally, I'd never play an antipaladin unless alignment was removed from the game.

[Thealtruistorc]

And yet orcs suck as antipaladins. :smalltongue:

Also, harming a sentient creature that cannot fight back is evil. Same reason a a 6th level antipaladin killing 1st level commoners is still evil.

Though, personally, I'd never play an antipaladin unless alignment was removed from the game.

We only suffer crunch-wise, and only slightly (smite good's obscene damage isn't cha-based). Fluff-wise, we define the class.

And while harming a sentient creature is evil (I never debated that), it isn't always productive evil. A paladin who spends all his time trimming people's hedges isn't making the best use of their powers, and neither is an antipaladin who does nothing but harass puppies (remember: it would be completely in character for a demon lord to make you fall for being useless).

[Beowulf DW]

*A lot of stuff that made me pause and say "Dude. This guy is hardcore!"*

Well said, though I fear that the Antipaladin doesn't really possess the class features to back it up. As Sporeegg said, they're attack dogs, blunt force instruments. Evil Clerics, Inquisitors, Oracles and Warpriests have much more leeway and resources with which to embody the evil version of "Nothing is forbidden. Everything is allowed." Though it would be interesting to see a character like that. One that knows the truth of the universe: that the only strength one can trust is your own; you own whatever you're strong enough to hold; the only laws that matter are the ones that can be enforced with sheer power and might.:roach:

[ThinkMinty]

I think there's one build Orc does well for anti-paladins, I think it's the offensive melee one, but I forget.

Anyways, for some reason I wanted to try the class out as an alternative to playing a full-caster next time I do PF, plus being that one evil guy in an ostensibly good party, but not being a traitorous **** despite nihilism and possible Gug-worship. Ya know, because Chaotic Evil character being a traitorous **** is a goddamn cliche.

[Spore]

Ya know, because Chaotic Evil character being a traitorous **** is a goddamn cliche.

I like being the CE guy berating the so-called heroes that their rampage through the land isn't as much as disguised murder. Even being the face of the group:

"You didn't have to kill the slave master. I could have persuaded him to provide us with slaves for our own usage. I swear, Paladins these days don't have any foresight."

[Oddman80]

As to your original idea... invest in skill points in UMD, and as soon as you can afford one, get a wand filled with the spell Pup Shape (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/spells/pupShape.html).

Now you can be extra evil - turning all animals you come across into cute little baby versions of themselves before you strike them down in imaginative ways.

[Thealtruistorc]

I like being the CE guy berating the so-called heroes that their rampage through the land isn't as much as disguised murder. Even being the face of the group:
\

This is the sort of stuff that I like to see from chaotic evil: pointing out that nobody else is much better. Undead, monsters, dictators, outsiders, they have rights too, and if you go around wantonly slaying them you are no better (I don't care what your flimsy code of honor says, you are an unrepentant murderer just like me).

My rebuttal in regards to the "attack dog" line is forthcoming.