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Guinea Anubis
2007-05-11, 11:05 AM
So I have a Rogue (the one you guys helped me make) that likes to run a Shell Game to make money. The DM does'nt want to roll for each person that plays the game. So what do you think would be the best way to rules for a shell game that runs for a long time in game?

Ulzgoroth
2007-05-11, 11:10 AM
For simplicity and balance, Profession(street gambling) or Profession(con games) might be appropriate. If you want to model it more realistically, it gets messy and probably needs to involve Slight of Hand, Bluff, and Diplomacy checks, and some kind of determiner for when a displeased customer sets the guard on you.

Darrin
2007-05-11, 11:24 AM
So I have a Rogue (the one you guys helped me make) that likes to run a Shell Game to make money. The DM does'nt want to roll for each person that plays the game. So what do you think would be the best way to rules for a shell game that runs for a long time in game?

From the SRD: "You can also use Sleight of Hand to entertain an audience as though you were using the Perform skill. In such a case, your “act” encompasses elements of legerdemain, juggling, and the like."

So I'd make you roll a Sleight of Hand check, and compare the result to the DC chart in the Perform skill description (DC 15 = 1d10 sp/day, DC 20 = 3d10 sp/day, etc.). For the purposes of determining what a "day" means, I'd say 8-10 hours of work should constitute a "day". If you want an hourly rate, then bump the payout down one level of coinage: Running a shell game for 1 hour and hitting a DC 20 would provide 3d10 cp instead of sp.

ZeroNumerous
2007-05-11, 11:28 AM
Profession(Conman) works best, honestly. After all, it is your job.

Ashdate
2007-05-11, 11:36 AM
There's a short answer to this, and a long answer. Here's the long answer:

5 ranks in Bluff already gives a synergy bonus to Sleight of Hand, so I wouldn't bother with Bluff checks.

You'd be opposing spot checks; A small object like you'd use in a shell game should get the +4 bonus to conceal it; wearing baggy clothing could give you another +2.

So starting at level one, with a +3 dexterity bonus, you could (with four ranks in Sleight of Hand) get a +13 bonus to your Sleight of Hand check. This could increase to +16 at level 2. Your average commoner isn't going to have more then a +1 bonus to their Spot checks via wisdom, and is unlikely to spend his 12 to 16 initial skill points all on Spot, so you're probably looking at no more than a +3 bonus.

With a whopping +10 bonus over them to oppose their spot checks, I'd rule it works every time against your standard NPC.


Here's the short answer:

Making a coin disappear is a DC 10 check, meaning you'd never fail it. The rule about the observer comparing checks to see where the object went is moot; The entire shell game philosophy is that you trick them from the outset, they're always looking at the wrong thing. Therefore, I'd only let someone who KNOWS you're actively trying to con them to oppose checks with you, which pretty much would leave important NPC's in my opinion.


In any case, I'd just roll a Sleight of Hand check, and divide the result by 10 to determine how much gold you could con in one day (what a standard profession check would roughly get you).

- Eddie

Citizen Joe
2007-05-11, 10:01 PM
The point of the shell game (or 3 card monte) is not to get the mark to pick the wrong shell, it is to convince the mark that the pea is actually under one of the shells.

Yechezkiel
2007-05-11, 10:14 PM
The point of the shell game (or 3 card monte) is not to get the mark to pick the wrong shell, it is to convince the mark that the pea is actually under one of the shells.

Bluff reels em in, Sleight of Hand guts em (of their gp).

Jack Mann
2007-05-11, 10:14 PM
Or, better yet, keep the mark concentrating on the shells while your compatriot empties their pockets.

Talya
2007-05-11, 10:20 PM
Sleight of Hand.

As Haley recently pointed out in the comic, in any "real" shell game, there is no way to win, the choices are all decoys.

MusScribe
2007-05-11, 10:30 PM
Yeah, those sound like they'ld work. I'd probably go with the DC10 Sleight of Hand check (normally automatic if you're any good) vs Spot when needed. Assuming no special NPCs / PCs, then (as Ashdate suggested) divide a Sleight of Hand check by ten for gp per day.


And you could take Jack Mann's advice too - although I'd apply a small penalty for money that would fall under both normally.

technomancer
2007-05-11, 11:46 PM
I'd just like to toss in that does it matter? After you get past level ... 1, then the amount of money you can sucker commoners out of is nothing compared the cost of your belt. I'd just throw a few coppers, maybe a gold or two if it's a huge area, and that's that. Better yet, just let him have room and board for free when in civilized areas, stating that the profits from the shell game are paying for the food and the place to sleep.

On a side note, the best way to 'win' at 3-card monte from the player side: Slap your hand down on one of the cards, flip over the other two, and state "Well, it looks like I won." Plus, don't keep you wallet in a very accessable place.

The Prince of Cats
2007-05-12, 03:54 AM
I would run it as Profession, allowing you to get synergy from Sleight of Hand and/or Bluff. Perhaps run it as a straight Bluff or Perform check with the Profession target-numbers and maybe a -5 penalty, assuming they lack an appropriate profession skill.

Ikkitosen
2007-05-12, 05:53 AM
I think it's something any dextrous, sleight-of-hand and bluff based rogue should be able to do. I suggest only using profession skills (which many rogues don't have since they have so many other great skills to buy) as a last resort.

Sleight of Hand (with the Bluff synergy) sounds perfect to me.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-05-12, 07:28 AM
I'd recommend adapting the Living Greyhawk rules on making money with Sleight of Hand.

Pick a target DC. Each DC has a certain amount of money associated with it. If you make a Sleight of Hand check that beats that DC, you win that amount of money. If you fail by 5 or more, you attract the local authorities. (Which, for the purpose of simplified abstraction, can be thrown off with a single Bluff check in Living Greyhawk, but your DM will probably want to play that out.) You cannot take 20 on the check. Such a check represents a week of cons.

{table="head"]Sleight of Hand DC|Money Made
DC 15|2d6 gp
DC 20|2d10 gp
DC 25|1d6 pp
DC 30|1d8 pp
DC 35|1d10 pp
DC 40|2d6 pp
DC 45|2d8 gp
DC 50|2d10 gp[/table]

For further adaptation, I'd alter the table and the "error margin" (how badly you have to fail to attract the authorities) based on where you are trying to run your con. A rather lawless town might allow you to fail a check by as much as 12 before attracting attention. A town with cautious folk who aren't easily fooled would probably give you less money for similar DCs.

adanedhel9
2007-05-12, 01:12 PM
I think it's something any dextrous, sleight-of-hand and bluff based rogue should be able to do. I suggest only using profession skills (which many rogues don't have since they have so many other great skills to buy) as a last resort.

Sleight of Hand (with the Bluff synergy) sounds perfect to me.

I generally rule that if a character wants to perform some mundance task on a regular basis to earn money, it's a Profession check. There's more to it that just using Sleight of Hand (in this case) - you have to convince your 'patrons', dress the part, stay away from the authorities, manage rivals, know where and when to set up, etc. Sure, a rogue could run a shell game using Sleight of Hand, but could they consistantly make a living off of it? That's where the Profession skills come into play.


I'd just like to toss in that does it matter? After you get past level ... 1, then the amount of money you can sucker commoners out of is nothing compared the cost of your belt.

Here's what I've done to (hopefully) keep Profession relavent at higher levels:

The player sets his own DC, and if he makes it, he earns (roll x DC) sp. If he misses it by 5 or more, he loses ((roll - 5) x DC ) sp. One roll represents one week's part-time work. Those who devote a whole week to the task earn/lose 5 times as much. For those on a tight schedule, one day's work is exactly the same, but earns/loses cp instead of sp. I'm also really liberal with synergies on Profession, usually choosing 2 or 3 logical skills to provide a bonus.

By effectively squaring the benefit, and making the skill more flexible, I think I've allowed it to remain an attractive choice for a little extra money at high levels. Though I have yet to run a higher level game, I've seen players with 8th level characters religiously making their Profession checks; that's something I've never seen in any other game.

cupkeyk
2007-05-12, 01:25 PM
of course you have one audience member planted who will pick the shell with the fewest bets so that you win back your already minimal losses. This assumes you let more than one person bet each time.

same system though. The accomplice chooses the least bet upon cup you sleight of hand the pea under it.