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Manave_E_Sulanul
2007-05-11, 12:53 PM
I'm writing up a build for a basic sword and board fighter that will be wielding a bastard sword and/or longsword and I'm a little stumped as to what I want to do for feats. He'll be human, a fighter, and going into Elemental Warrior from the Planar Handbook at later levels but I was wondering if there were any suggestions. I will probably use a mount in combat when I can but given the nature of our campaign that'll probably only work half of the time. What I have so far looks like this:

Stats: Str: 15, Dex: 13, Con: 12, Int: 11, Wis: 10, Cha: 11

01 Fgt: Power Attack, Weapons Focus (Longsword), Mounted Combat
02 Fgt: Cleave
03 Fgt: Combat Reflexes
04 Fgt: Weapon Specialization (Longsword)
05 Fgt:
06 Fgt: Leap Attack, Ride-By Attack
07 Fgt:
08 Fgt: Spirited Charge
09 Fgt: Trample
10 Fgt: Greater Weapon Focus (Longsword)
11 Fgt:
12 Fgt: Greater Weapon Specialization (Longsword), ???
13 Elm:
14 Elm:
15 Elm: ???
16 Elm:
17 Elm:
18 Fgt?: ???
19 Fgt?: ???
20 Fgt?:

??? indicated that the only thing worth having I can think of is maybe improved toughness. I also might grab "eadership at some point and maybe make those last few levels of Fighter levels of Purple Dragon Knight. Any more power attack cheese, other than loosing the shield and fighting with a two handed weapon, I should know about? ;) If not, I'll probably just throw in E.W.P (Bastard sword) in and set all the other feats up a level and still be short a few feats.

ZeroNumerous
2007-05-11, 12:58 PM
Heres an idea, drop mounted combat at first level and pick up Monkey Grip along with a Large Longsword. You're hitting for 2d6+STR, still able to power-attack, and only at a -2 to hit. It certainly gives you better damage output at lower levels. Especially if your DM allows feat retraining.

Hurlbut
2007-05-11, 01:00 PM
Heres an idea, drop mounted combat at first level and pick up Monkey Grip along with a Large Longsword. You're hitting for 2d6+STR, still able to power-attack, and only at a -2 to hit. It certainly gives you better damage output at lower levels. Especially if your DM allows feat retraining.

Oh why not go for a greatsword and drop shield entirely?:smallsigh:

kpenguin
2007-05-11, 01:01 PM
Don't take either EWP or Monkey Grip. Its not worth the feat to pump up the dice. Since you are using a shield, I recommend putting some feats into that.

Jasdoif
2007-05-11, 01:01 PM
Oh why not go for a greatsword and drop shield entirely?:smallsigh:Or even better, go for a greatsword and get an animated shield.

Exarch
2007-05-11, 01:13 PM
Try going shield feats. Improved Shield Bash, Sheild Specialization, etc, etc. There's a lot of those feats in either PHB2 or Complete Warrior (I want to say PHB2). Go TWF to some extent with the shield...there's a feat that allows that for standard TWF penalty (get a spiked large shield).

If you want other stuff...try a flail and Disarm too. I did that, it was fun. I don't find Mounted Combat to be useful unless you work it out with your DM beforehand and make sure you'll be able to use a mount regularly.

Piccamo
2007-05-11, 01:39 PM
Heres an idea, drop mounted combat at first level and pick up Monkey Grip along with a Large Longsword. You're hitting for 2d6+STR, still able to power-attack, and only at a -2 to hit. It certainly gives you better damage output at lower levels. Especially if your DM allows feat retraining.

Or not. Don't waste your time with Monkey Grip. It is not enough of an advantage at the lowest levels to justify burning a feat (1 - 2 points of damage overall doesn't matter). Even with retraining it costs gold and in-game time, both of which may not be available.

Everyman
2007-05-11, 01:47 PM
People, the OP asked for help making a sword and board. That's his goal. If you're just going to rag on his idea, then don't post. It doesn't help.

The biggest problem Sword n' Board builds have is their damage output. Mathematically, it is more effective to do more damage and end the battle quicker than it is to have that extra few points of AC. With that in mind, I do have a suggestion...

Since you have a Dex high enough, consider dropping Power Attack and picking up Two-weapon Fighting, Shield slam, and feats that allow you to keep your shield bonus to AC when you fight with it (don't remember their names). This might help you keep a S/B build without losing so much damage potential.

PinkysBrain
2007-05-11, 02:00 PM
Can't you be a Knight? It's the only class for which sword&board makes sense. Sure, you have a lot less feats ... but most of the feats you do have are decidedly sub par anyway or don't work together.

Jayabalard
2007-05-11, 02:07 PM
Can't you be a Knight? It's the only class for which sword&board makes sense. Whatchutalkinboutwillis?

it makes sense for plenty of character concepts, not just ones that are knights.

Manave_E_Sulanul
2007-05-11, 02:20 PM
Thanks for all the board side of the build suggestions. I'm going to have to get my hands on one of my friends with the PHB II and see if these shield feats being spoken of are made of both awesome and fun.

Has anybody used the shield bash, etc. feats in the past round'abouts and have any suggestions, mathematically, when to use them? I think I am going to retain power attack, etc and drop the mounted feats (except mounted combat, flavor reasons.) and go with shield chain in replacement. I know that mathematically power attack with usually (Read: always) be better to use but I was wondering if anyone had any mathematical fun showing when the best time to use the Two-Weapon Fighting and bashing style.

PinkysBrain
2007-05-11, 02:25 PM
it makes sense for plenty of character concepts, not just ones that are knights.
Let me rephrase that, it's a subpar way to fight for any other class (not counting the spell & board divine casters who rely mostly on spells).

TWFers can benefit from a shield as an off-hand weapon (before they can afford animated ones) but that's not really what people usually mean when they say sword & board.

Matthew
2007-05-11, 02:33 PM
Nothing wrong with Weapon and Shield, but don't develop a Character that relies on one mode of Fighting. At levels 1-3, chances are a Long Sword and Heavy Shield will serve your Character better than a Great Sword. After that, well, it's a different story, but even then there's no need to drop the Shield entirely from his gear. Just don't invest loads of Feats into the style and everything will be fine.
If you have it available, you definitely want to look into the PHB 2 for various Shield Feats and the Melee Weapon Mastery stuff; Block Arrow is also a nice Feat for Shield users, but you have to be careful. Never be afraid to have him dump the Shield and use the Long Sword in two hands in Melee to take full advantage of Power Attack (1D8 versus 2D6? Not really a huge difference relatively speaking).

Indon
2007-05-11, 03:06 PM
Well, if you can get a shield with some nice, Shocking, Flaming spikes, shield bash TWF'ing becomes pretty reasonable, in my view.

Plus, if you're focusing on elemental stuff, it would make sense that you'd have weapons with elemental damage, and the more D6's you roll when you hit, the better TWF becomes.

Edit: I do believe that with Improved Shield Bash, you can still use your shield defensively even while attacking with it, so you can have your shield and make your enemy eat it, too.

Townopolis
2007-05-11, 04:38 PM
Shield Specialization: Large +1 to shield AC from large shields.

Shield Ward Get your shield bonus to touch AC and as bonus against Bull Rush, Trip, Disarm, etc...

Improved Shield Bash Keep that +3 (with shield spec) to AC while bashing

Agile Shield Fighter While fighting with a weapon and shield in offhand, take -2 to all attacks (regardless of shield size, whereas normally a large shield is a one-handed weapon (not light) and gives your -4 to attacks even with TWF)

Those are all from PHBII (Except for Imp. Shield Bash)

Get a large spiked shield and a longsword. I also advise picking up the Knight class, it gets a bunch of shield feats, and is basically a lawful tank with a few other restrictions. (Also, it gets mounted feats, so you can keep your mounted warrior idea.) The Knight class is also found in the PHBII.

Matthew
2007-05-11, 04:55 PM
Agile Shield Fighter is a Trap (nowhere else to go after you get it). As is pretty much any decision to go Two Weapon Fighting with Weapon and Shield. Two Weapon Fighting with an Animated Shield is your best bet at higher levels (or maybe Improved Unarmed Strike).

Grizzled Gryphon
2007-05-12, 02:26 PM
Yeah, mathamatically, Monkey Grip isn't worth it. Take Power Attack instead, and for the same -2 you get from Monkey Grip, you get more damage on average.

I would also suggest that you look into the extreme sheilds from Races of Stone. Some nice feats for them in there, if I recall correctly (that is debatable, mind you).

If you can take a level of Psychic Warrior, there are some Psionic feats that can also enhance your sheild (and your defense over all). That is if Psionics are available, of course. But, two levels of Psychic Warrior after two levels of Fighter give you feats every level, plus some. Add in a few defense powers, and there you go.

Mostly random thoughts, there.

The Psychic Warrior addition could also give you some offensive ability, too. Psionic Weapon comes to mind. Expend your focus for a +2d6 to your damage. Or, you can get the feat that allows your attack to be a touch attack. Never a bad thing.

If Psionics is available to you, then let me know, and I will break out the books and give some more ideas on how that can help things.

Person_Man
2007-05-12, 03:24 PM
Here are a few options:

1) Use an animated shield. That will free up your hand so that you can use the standard two handed weapon.

2) Be a Strongheart Halfling or similar small creature on a medium mount, using a lance and a shield. Get Spirited charge. You'll still have decent damage output (though using the lance two handed would be better) without sacraficing your shield or using an animated shield. This works even better if you're a Knight.

3) Captain America on Steroids: Whatever/Master Thrower/Pyrokineticist. Use the Hurling Charge feat from the Miniatures Handbook, which let's you make a thrown attack as part of your charge attack. Pick up the Shield of Returning or whatever its called from the Magic Item Compendium. Charge, throw shield with all your cool tricks, attack with your fire lash two handed, and then have the shield return to you at the beginning of the next turn. Though feat intensive, this is definitely a shield build, and it's pretty potent (though I prefer to use a harpoon instead of a shield).


Also, these feats are weak:

Weapons Focus: Adds minor bonus

Cleave: Only useful if your DM uses lots of enemies. Much less useful then other feats that add attacks.

Weapon Specialization et al: Adds minor bonus.

Trample: Huge waste unless your mount has some sort of powerful attack. Plus, most of the people you charge should be killed by your first lance hit. So Trample is often wasted.

Monkey Grip: Learn this formula:

Expected Damage = Average Damage * # of Attacks * % chance of hitting

Monkey Grip slightly increases your average damage, but it also slightly decreases your % chance of hitting. So it's actually worse then Weapon Spec, which also sucks.


These feats are strong:

Power Attack: The gold standard of melee damage.

Leap Attack: Better Power Attack for your charges. But it can't be used with the mounted combat tree. Pick one or the other.

Shock Trooper: Shift Leap Attack penalty to AC. Also great when combined with Knockback.

Spirited Charge: Triple damage with a lance, but only useful if you're small. You won't be riding your horse in dungeons, and thus won't be using this feat most of the time.

Knock-Down: Free Trip attack whenever you deal 10+ damage.

Knockback: Free Bull Rush whenever you hit someone.

Combat Reflexes: This is an excellent feat, but its wasted if you don't use a reach weapon and/or build your feats around it.

Headlong Rush: Double damage on a charge.

Battle Jump: Double damage on a charge.

Snap-Kick: Extra unarmed attack whenever you attack, even on standard attacks.

Hold the Line: Free AoO whenever someone charges you.

Sidestep Charge: Free AoO whenever someone charges you but fails to hit. Great with Hold the Line and Knock-Down.

Karmic Strike: Free AoO whenever someone hits you.

Robilar's Gambit: Free AoO whenever someone attacks you.

Evasive Reflexes: Take a 5' step instead of an attack whenever your opponent generates and AoO. Add to Rob's Gambit or Karmic Strike, and it's impossible for anyone without reach to get a full attack on you.

Mage Slayer: Casters you threaten can't cast defensively.

Notice how all of the weak feats add minor bonuses, and most strong feats scale with your levels either directly or by adding attacks. Also note how these feats tend to work much better if you're using a two handed reach weapon. This makes sword and board even less appealing.

If you need to know where any of these feats are, check out the index on the WotC site.