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Gungnir
2007-05-11, 03:51 PM
Okay, I've seen monks get a lot of trash around here, and I agree with most of the arguments, even if I still think they're cool. One of the biggest flaws everyone keeps yelling about seems to be the flurry, since you can't move at the same time, going against the whole "I'm really fast" flavor, and generally not doing that much for the monk.

What about the Decisive Strike variant from PHBII? Does it work any better than Flurry, numbers-wise? It seems to me like it would be quite good at low levels, then, like most melee-centered mechanics, fade away sometime after wizards start to kill the BBEG at 2 miles with 3 spells. Perhaps damage-enhancing feats and items help enough to make it worthwhile?

Theodoxus
2007-05-11, 04:25 PM
IMO, monks should never be considered 'big hitters' no matter what feats and items they possess. It has a lot of 'cool' flavor, but it's the most suboptimal of all suboptimal classes for a game where killing things is the only way to gain levels.

Gungnir
2007-05-11, 04:28 PM
All the more reason to try and make them better.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-11, 04:30 PM
IMO, monks should never be considered 'big hitters' no matter what feats and items they possess. It has a lot of 'cool' flavor, but it's the most suboptimal of all suboptimal classes for a game where killing things is the only way to gain levels.

No, that'd be Soulknife.

Jayabalard
2007-05-11, 05:02 PM
a game where killing things is the only way to gain levels.You can defeat creatures without killing them (several ways); you can get bonus exp for completing goals; you can get bonus exp for roleplaying.

Jack Mann
2007-05-11, 05:08 PM
True. None of which the monk does well, or better than any other class.

Indon
2007-05-11, 05:16 PM
True. None of which the monk does well, or better than any other class.

I'd say the Monk has a definite place in a stealth-oriented team (At the very least, he replaces the Barbarian when you need to run through the place triggering all the traps).

JoeFredBob
2007-05-11, 05:23 PM
True. None of which the monk does well, or better than any other class.

You're right.

There is no scenario that a DM can award experience for in which a monk outperforms any other class.

I'm sure glad that paladins are so good at running timed trap gauntlets.

Dhavaer
2007-05-11, 05:25 PM
No, that'd be Soulknife.

What about Samurai?

Indon
2007-05-11, 05:25 PM
Not to mention, Monks can kill things just fine... eventually. Having low DPS does not make a class bad.

Annarrkkii
2007-05-11, 05:26 PM
Decisive Strike variant has just made monk a better dip. The double-damage just stacks on to the existing Power Attack builds like the Flaming Bowling Ball of Doom and the like.

The_Snark
2007-05-11, 05:31 PM
It takes a full-round action to use Decisive Strike, though, which rules out its usefulness for a lot of dips.

It's great with Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit, though. Too bad the Monk can't get Robilar's Gambit until level 18...

Fax Celestis
2007-05-11, 05:39 PM
What about Samurai?

I've erased any existence of a "Samurai" class from my brain. Please dont' put it back.

Caelestion
2007-05-11, 05:43 PM
What about [edited for sanity]?

That pathetic excuse for a class at least had a full BAB, both of which Monk and Soulknife are bizarrely lacking.

"I know, let's design some fighting classes which will be lumped into the warrior group because, let's face it, they can either ponce around or fight and naff all else, and just to be even more fun, we'll give 'em both medium BAB. Won't THAT be great for roleplaying?"

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-05-11, 06:11 PM
Hey, if you're hard up for roleplaying, there's always the half-elf commoner. He's so worthless that there's literally nothing you can do besides roleplaying that won't end in sticky death!

...I'm actually considering an NPC campaign now.

Indon
2007-05-11, 06:15 PM
...I'm actually considering an NPC campaign now.

I'd name mine Gildenstern.

Caelestion
2007-05-11, 06:16 PM
If I can name my Kobold Rosencrantz...

Dhavaer
2007-05-11, 06:20 PM
...I'm actually considering an NPC campaign now.

I did an all-commoner, 15 point buy dungeon crawl. It was great while it lasted.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-05-11, 06:32 PM
Alright, Dhavaer! You can be our DM! I'll be Ted. Are you allowing leadership at level 6 so that I can get a cohort, Bill? Or perhaps just another player that likes the name Bill?

Caelestion
2007-05-11, 06:36 PM
But Einstrauss, after Rosencrantz and Gildenstern are indeed dead, surely you'll then end up with Ted & Bill's Lethal Adventure. Shouldn't that be the other way around?

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-05-11, 06:38 PM
By gods, you're right! I'll have to take one for the poetic team and be Bill instead of Ted.

Caelestion
2007-05-11, 06:40 PM
Or you could simply call yourself Billunted.

(Unbelievably on-topic comment: I once named two phaerimms William and Edward because it was getting very early and I couldn't be bothered to think up proper names.)

Lord Iames Osari
2007-05-11, 07:30 PM
Okay, I've seen monks get a lot of trash around here, and I agree with most of the arguments, even if I still think they're cool. One of the biggest flaws everyone keeps yelling about seems to be the flurry, since you can't move at the same time, going against the whole "I'm really fast" flavor, and generally not doing that much for the monk.

What about the Decisive Strike variant from PHBII? Does it work any better than Flurry, numbers-wise? It seems to me like it would be quite good at low levels, then, like most melee-centered mechanics, fade away sometime after wizards start to kill the BBEG at 2 miles with 3 spells. Perhaps damage-enhancing feats and items help enough to make it worthwhile?

As has been pointed out, Decisive Strike is barely an improvement, since it still requires a full-round action. If you want a genuine improvement on the monk and don't mind going outside official sources, take a look at my version (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35152&page=2#33).

crow04
2007-05-11, 07:59 PM
I'm personaly rather fond of it, it can be devastating in a AOO build. Also meshes nicely with snap kick.

Gungnir
2007-05-11, 08:02 PM
I like it. I especially like the "Add unarmed damage to monk weapons" bit. I've always wondered why anyone would really want to bother with monk weapons, when they already deal as much or more with their forehead.

Bookmarked for later use.

Person_Man
2007-05-11, 08:53 PM
Mathmatically speaking, Decisive Strike Monks are inferior to normal Monks.

A Normal Monks using Flurry gets three total attacks between levels 8-10, while a Decisive Strike Monk is stuck at one double damage attack. And at levels 15+, a Normal Monk using Flurry get five attacks, while a Decisive Strike Monk still only gets two double damage attacks.

It's also worth mentioning that unless you're going Monk 20 (a weak choice) most Monk builds should head into a full BAB class after level 11, when their Flurry tops out. In that case, a Decisive Strike Monk will fall behind at level 14.

Furthermore, a Monk can use Speed weapons, Haste, etc. A Decisive Strike Monk can't, since a Decisive Strike is "a full round action" and not a "full attack action" like normal Flurry.

Certain Attack of Opportunity builds might be better with a Decisive Strike Monk. But if you're going for an AoO build, Monk probably isn't your best choice of classes in the first place, since it lacks full BAB, has MAD, and has lousy AC at low levels.

ken-do-nim
2007-05-12, 01:57 PM
Also do keep in mind that the more attacks you have, the more chances you have to roll a critical.

Khantalas
2007-05-12, 03:20 PM
I've erased any existence of a "Samurai" class from my brain. Please dont' put it back.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e100/Dhavaer/Autograph.jpg

It just felt... natural, you know.

Thanks again, Dhavaer.

mrjoegangles
2007-05-21, 05:19 AM
The best varient of Monk I've ever seen was in an 05 issue of Dragon or Dungeon (can't remember which) It was called the Chaos Monk. If you get a chance to go through their old articles look for the varient, its good RP and I think a better build. Even if it gets to be a little inconsistant.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-05-21, 07:12 AM
You're right.

There is no scenario that a DM can award experience for in which a monk outperforms any other class.

I'm sure glad that paladins are so good at running timed trap gauntlets.I'm not sure how "odds of a winning American Gladiators match" is relevant for the average D&D campaign.

the_tick_rules
2007-05-21, 10:00 AM
my monk is becoming a brutal hitter. with improved natural attack(MM) and in 2 levels superior natural attack(nine swords) her fists will be devastating. and in 9 levels when i get sanctify and then holy ki strike you wouldn't want her to hit you.

The White Knight
2007-05-21, 10:52 AM
How about Freezing the Lifeblood and Death Blow? Taking 2 rounds to kill any humanoid (provided you can hit it) with your hands is pretty fun, although still not exactly powerful by most standards. Add in some ToB cheese and you can almost certainly eventually finaggle a way to get it in one round, which is a definite improvement.

Person_Man
2007-05-21, 11:03 AM
my monk is becoming a brutal hitter. with improved natural attack(MM) and in 2 levels superior natural attack(nine swords) her fists will be devastating. and in 9 levels when i get sanctify and then holy ki strike you wouldn't want her to hit you.

?

A 16th level Monk with Improved Natural Attack and Superior Unarmed Strike from ToB deals 4d8 per successful hit. That's the best damage you're going to get from an unarmed Monk, and it's quite low. That's an average of only 18 points of damage per hit. Plus you've wasted two feats to get it, and your BAB is only +12.

Any full BAB class using Power Attack with +8/-4 and a greatsword deals 15 points of damage, gets 1.5 his Str bonus, has the same exact probability of hitting, plus Power Attack can scale upwards or downwards as he pleases, and he can use a magical Greatsword (or a superior reach weapon, if you're smart), and he has another feat to use (Leap Attack, Knock-Down, Knockback, Headlong Rush, Battle Jump, Robilar's Gambit, etc) to push his damage and/or # of attacks much higher, plus he doesn't have to suffer through the other drawbacks of being a Monk.

Monks are ok at certain things. But damage dealing is not one of them.

Arbitrarity
2007-05-21, 11:07 AM
Except with the cheese I just posted in the overpowered rules thread.

24d8/hit anyone?

Course, varying on interpretation, he may actually have to be ECL 16 with a monk's belt, but eh. Other issue is he needs a 2.275k item to actually do that (each time), or he only does 6d8. He could also buy a ring of expansion, but that limits him to 16d8.