Dark Fantasy, not sure how to explain it

[Blackhawk748]

Ok, so i know what Dark Fantasy is, but i cant actually explain it, and this is a problem as i want to play a Dark Fantasy game, but i cant really articulate to the prospective DM what traits make up Dark Fantasy. I mean i dont want Ravenloft, cuz thats Gothic horror, which is great and all but not what i want right now.

So key traits and examples would be great. Thanks in advance.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Comparisons to Dark Souls and/or Berserk?

[Geddy2112]

Dark fantasy is just a darker take on a fantasy world. Most fantasy worlds are X number of humanoid races in a power struggle+magic. High fantasy is more magic, low fantasy is less magic. Dark fantasy is when the "bad" humanoids win more often, or perhaps the world is just overall darker. It could also be a contrast to epic fantasy, where characters are very powerful. A dark fantasy counterpart would be grim and realistic.

Raveonloft is Gothic Horror because it incorporates Gothic and horror elements. It is also a darker fantasy setting; none of which are mutually exclusive. If you just want a dark fantasy setting, tell the DM you want a gritty, realistic, non heroic fantasy setting. But you don't want excess Gothic or horror elements.

[Novawurmson]

I think the best way to help is if you gave examples of what you mean by "dark fantasy" because I feel like it could have several meanings. If you could list a few examples of books/movies/comics/TV shows/etc. that fit the concept you're aiming for, that could help.

I'll ask a couple more questions to help sort out some things:

*Do you want a Lovecraftian "the universe is so much bigger than us, and it's filled with more horrible things than we can ever imagine?"

*Do you want most NPCs and PCs marked by personal tragedy, loss, and secrets?

*Do you want a world with few safe places, perhaps post-apocalyptic?

*Do you want a brutal, gritty world, a la A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones?

*Do you want a world filled to the brim with the supernatural?

*Do you want a world filled with cruel irony and just desserts, or a world were crime pays?

We could also do "more like X or more like Y."

Do you want a campaign more like An Interview with a Vampire or a campaign more like Night of the Living Dead?

Do you want a campaign more like Evil Dead 2 or more like Masque of the Red Death?

Do you want a campaign more like the Diablo series or more like Amnesia: The Dark Descent?

Do you want a campaign more like Hellboy or a campaign more like Walking Dead?

You also might check out the Dark Fantasy TV Tropes page (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarkFantasy).

[Blackhawk748]

Ok examples:

The Witcher (not sure if it technically qualifies)
Song of Fire and Ice (with more magic)
The Diablo series is a good example
Seventh Son
Van Helsing
Dragon Age

So definitely Gritty and a bit Dark, but not full blown GrimDark

[Zaydos]

Would Conan or Fafhrd & the Gray Mouser count?

I mean they definitely have elements that were drawn upon by ASoIaF, Diablo, and Dragon Age.

[Blackhawk748]

Would Conan or Fafhrd & the Gray Mouser count?

I mean they definitely have elements that were drawn upon by ASoIaF, Diablo, and Dragon Age.

Oh totally Conan is pretty freakin Dark.

[Yogibear41]

Midnight Campaign setting, although in some ways it is less magical, and in others more magical since everyone can cast spells if they take feats to do so.

My DM basically explained it as Lord of the Rings if the good guys lost.

[Sagetim]

Ok, so i know what Dark Fantasy is, but i cant actually explain it, and this is a problem as i want to play a Dark Fantasy game, but i cant really articulate to the prospective DM what traits make up Dark Fantasy. I mean i dont want Ravenloft, cuz thats Gothic horror, which is great and all but not what i want right now.

So key traits and examples would be great. Thanks in advance.

In a fantasy game, a smart necromancer will find ways to de-incentivise the locals from being near the graveyard so he can go about his business of digging up bodies to animate as undead, then when he needs to take out the town he'll cast contagion on some old fogey in the middle of the night and throw a bestow curse on there for con damage to kill the old sod quickly and be left with a highly contagious body he can use to poison the town well or something.

In a super science game, a mad doctor will hire some 'guys' to obtain dead bodies for him to perform experiments on, be it by digging up fresh corpses, or stealing dying people from the hospital or whatever. Generally the mad scientist will have enough class not to do the digging himself though.

In a Dark Fantasy game, the necromancer from example 1 is going to have a much more complex plan going on. The entire purpose of poisoning the town water supply is going to take on new dimensions: Weakening the population instead of trying to kill it, so that he can use vile spells to harvest them for liquid pain and sacrifice them in a dark ritual for dark craft xp or gold or what have you...why? To make magic items like the one that harvests liquid pain, or the cauldron that lets you brew up zombies from corpses. This necromancer is going to take being an evil **** to a whole new level, and if they have high enough level spells, that level is going to include keeping the hale and heartiest of the townsfolk alive and fixing up their ability damage when the time is right so he can drain their life essence to make himself younger again and repeat the process for that much longer. In a Dark Fantasy game, goblins probably eat people. And Fey are not silly, quirky personalities that are helpful. No, they're horrible, horrible *****.

In a Dark Fantasy game, you'll be taking pretty much everything in the monster manual and saying 'this is going to try and kill the players'. Yes, even the ragamuffins...which, given the Dark theme would probably gradually consume the flesh of whoever is wearing them so that if they are ever removed you sentence that person to death because they have no skin. It's safe to assume that anything in the Dark Fantasy game probably wants to kill and eat you. Maybe not the villagers...but they probably want your stuff.

[BoutsofInsanity]

Dark Fantasy differs in a couple of ways from both Grim Dark and Gothic Horror. I would succinctly describe it as such...

The world is mean, painful, and harsh. But not hopeless. Heroes abound, but so does evil. Constantly at war with each other, good and evil clash over and over again but neither can gain the upper hand.

A Longer explanation.
In normal fantasy, good is the status quo and not the exception. The world for the most part functions and people get on with their lives. The enemy isn't the status quo, its the event or stressor that calls for heroes. A dragon has stolen the princess, a tower has appeared in the desert and needs exploring, go find the holy sword etc.

In Grim Dark it's the opposite. The world sucks. Evil has won, good just doesn't know it yet. Life sucks, then you die. Expect to go out in a badass way only making the difference for a few people. There isn't very much good and evil, morality is grey and more grey. If there are heroes, there are only a few. And maybe one Paladin who hasn't been corrupted yet. Innocence is rare and treasured. Ravenloft, Warhammer 40k, are all examples of such.

Gothic Fantasy or Gothic Horror is closer to you, but not quite. Gothic horror is akin to the classics of literature. Frankenstein and Dracula are perfect examples. The enemies you fight represent dark versions of yourself. The creature from Frankenstein was brought about from pride. Dracula is Wrath and Lust. Hyde is Wrath combined with bullying. The enemies are tragic, and represent what could happen to you if you take one step wrong. It should scare you because it is related to you. People get their just desserts in the end. Evil will be punished. Typically in an ironic and personal way. It may take a while. But it will happen.

Dark Fantasy is a combination of all of the above. Goblins aren't joke characters to fight. They are smart ninja's who gank people at night using hit and run tactics that like to use their long spindly fingers to rip off childrens heads to eat. They see perfectly in the dark, but the light spell blinds them. The world is dangerous, I can't stress this enough, that the world is dangerous and hates you. But, unlike grim dark, you have a good chance being the protagonists to succeed. Magic weapons aren't just +2 longswords. They are weapons with special properties and histories going back into ancient legends. There might even be a downside to using them.

To close a portal, one of the party must sacrifice themselves to close it. Villains are more genre savvy then normal. Ogres are huge, cunning, and stealthy, and then a bitch to fight. Magic items should be a little more rare, but powerful with downsides. Its about crafting a world, that is harsh, but fair, with more evil then normal. Magic and power corrupts, and none have more power then the PC's