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View Full Version : Analysis Disenfranchisement [SoD Spoilers]



BenjCano
2015-09-06, 11:03 AM
Spoilers for Start of Darkness will be unmarked.


So the Dark One and Redcloak’s plan to use the Gates to control the Snarl is ultimately motivated by the fact that the gods designed the monstrous races as XP fodder for their clerics. They want to force the gods to create world 3.0, where the Dark One will have a say in how that world works and get a better deal for the monstrous races (particularly of concern to them are goblinoid species). The theme of Redcloak and the Dark One’s story is the limits to which one will go in order to give a voice to the voiceless. Another word for giving a voice to the voiceless is enfranchisement.


Let’s look at the situation at the Godsmoot. By mutual agreement, the gods have decided that this is the forum by which they will vote on the fate of the world. But the gods, particularly the Northern pantheon, have by accident or design disenfranchised Hel from participating in that proceeding. She has no voice, despite the fact that she is one of the gods that made the world. She cannot participate in the very-relevant-to-her business of casting a vote to decide if it’s time to pull the plug on world 2.0


And when she gets a representative by happenstance dropped into her lap, and sends him along his way to be her voice in the proceedings, what happens? Roy up and tries to murder him in the face. {SCRUBBED} I don’t believe for a second here that Rich intends that as a parallel. For one thing, I know that he’s far more progressive to put Roy in the role of vote suppressors and then paint that in a heroic light, as strip 1000 did. But as Diamanda Hagan said, “I'm amazed sometimes at the subtext that writers don't spot in their own work.”


So the moral of the events of the past few comics seems to be, “If a representative body makes decisions you don’t agree with, murder members of that legislature until you get results you want.” Why is this painted in a heroic light?

Let me preemptively deal with the matter that if the vote goes Hel’s way, she’ll get a massive power boost from all the dwarven souls. And that’s a valid point, except that that situation came about as a result of the internal negotiations of the Northern Pantheon. They decided that dwarves who dies any way but in Glorious Battle become Hel’s, despite knowing that if a mass cataclysm resulted, she would benefit from that tremendously. This goes back to disenfranchisement. “Sure, we’ll make this deal with you, but the instant that deal actually benefits you, some guy with a sword will murder your representative in the face.”

DeliaP
2015-09-06, 11:18 AM
The last thread to tap this particular thought got rather argumentative and ultimately thread locked not very long ago.

But notwithstanding that danger, the very quick response to the disenfranchisment argument is to raise the question of whether the Gods actually have the right to decide on behalf of all the sentient races, that they should destroy the world, without actually consulting them. The Gods are not actually a "representative body".

Arguably, Roy is attempting to stop the lethal disenfranchisement of all the sentient races by the only means that the Gods have left available.

It is worth noting that Roy did attempt to persuade the Gods by reasoned argument, but the Gods were quite literally not even considering listening to anything a human (or dwarf or elf or lizardfolk or ....) might have to say on the matter of his own death.

Who's disenfranchising who here?

Kish
2015-09-06, 11:21 AM
You're blurring what the gods do with what mortals do. Roy is attempting to prevent the destruction of the world and the enslavement of the souls of every living dwarf. That that happens to be disadvantageous to one deity who arguably* has a case that the other deities are treating her unfairly is, as it rightly should be, so far down his list of priorities that it isn't even on the page; as far as "enfranchisement" goes, somehow I'm pretty sure that if every sapient being had an equal vote, the deities who have chosen to brutally enslave souls that go to their realms (as shown in 946 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html), with dwarves struggling under the weight of Hel's cup of blood) would never get any souls, never mind tens of millions of them immediately.

*Arguably, because Hel's statements about a wager have me thinking that she went into the current arrangement with her eyes open thinking that the "I get dishonored dead rather than setting up churches and getting the souls of my worshipers" arrangement would mean she came out ahead, and only regrets it after centuries to realize it's not working out that way. And again, the arrangement amounts to, "Screw having voluntary followers, I want slaves!" which hardly makes Hel a champion of fairness, justice, freedom, or any cause beyond "Hel gets hers and yours too!"

BenjCano
2015-09-06, 11:37 AM
But notwithstanding that danger, the very quick response to the disenfranchisment argument is to raise the question of whether the Gods actually have the right to decide on behalf of all the sentient races, that they should destroy the world, without actually consulting them. The Gods are not actually a "representative body".

...

It is worth noting that Roy did attempt to persuade the Gods by reasoned argument, but the Gods were quite literally not even considering listening to anything a human (or dwarf or elf or lizardfolk or ....) might have to say on the matter of his own death.


I have tremendous sympathy for the idea that Roy should argue that the gods don't have a right to decide on behalf of all sentient beings and destroy the world. But Roy didn't make such an anti-theistic argument when he thought he had the floor. His argument wasn't that the gods didn't have the right to do this, but assumed that they did have the right, but shouldn't exercise it.



Roy is attempting to prevent the destruction of the world and the enslavement of the souls of every living dwarf.


By usurping the process and disenfranchising one of the members of the Northern Pantheon. I repeat, how is the moral of this part of the story not, "If a representative body makes decisions you don’t agree with, murder members of that legislature until you get results you want.”

NerdyKris
2015-09-06, 11:37 AM
Roy isn't trying to disenfranchise Hel, he's trying not to be killed, and trying to save the lives of every living being on the planet. No amount of twisting and rephrasing is going to make his actions anything else. This is not at all comparable to the civil rights movement in any way.

hroþila
2015-09-06, 11:44 AM
How disenfranchised can Hel really be, she's a goddess sitting on this huge throne and being served by literal slaves.

DeliaP
2015-09-06, 11:44 AM
I have tremendous sympathy for the idea that Roy should argue that the gods don't have a right to decide on behalf of all sentient beings and destroy the world. But Roy didn't make such an anti-theistic argument when he thought he had the floor. His argument wasn't that the gods didn't have the right to do this, but assumed that they did have the right, but shouldn't exercise it.

You are right that Roy didn't claim the Gods were or should be a representative body. You made that comparison:



So the moral of the events of the past few comics seems to be, “If a representative body makes decisions you don’t agree with, murder members of that legislature until you get results you want.” Why is this painted in a heroic light?

But the moral simply doesn't work because the meeting of the Gods isn't a representative body. That's not the decision making process we're seeing here.

Kish
2015-09-06, 11:45 AM
I repeat, how is the moral of this part of the story not, "If a representative body makes decisions you don’t agree with, murder members of that legislature until you get results you want.”
In the same way it's not, "If you see someone wearing an orange shirt, blow up the moon."

You can repeat your assertion, but that doesn't make it any more accurate than it was the first time you asserted it.

BenjCano
2015-09-06, 11:58 AM
How disenfranchised can Hel really be, she's a goddess sitting on this huge throne and being served by literal slaves.

Because she doesn't have a voice in the proceedings that concern her.


In the same way it's not, "If you see someone wearing an orange shirt, blow up the moon."


Let's not make this personal. Can you please tell me why you disagree with my conclusion that Roy's plan is to murder a member of this assembly because the he disagreed with the results of the proceedings, and that the moral from this story arc is as I said?

The Giant
2015-09-06, 12:06 PM
This is a stupid, offensive, and just plain inaccurate analogy, and I am not dignifying it with a response.

It also mentions real-world politics, which we should all know by now is an Inappropriate Topic.

Thread locked.