Reasonable Power Attack Nerf?

[ZenBear]

So one of my players took Sharpshooter at level 1 and the damage bonus is a huge boost to his power, overshadowing everyone else in the party. Has anyone houseruled a fix to this feat in a way that still leaves it fun and worth having?

Perhaps capping the modifier at proficiency; at prof 2 you can take a -1 hit/+2 dmg, prof 3 no change, prof 4 it's -2 hit/+4 dmg, etc?

[JNAProductions]

Up the AC of the enemies a little. That -5 should mean a lot more misses unless the player is simply rolling real hot.

[Nifft]

Some ideas which haven't been tested:

- Add some small damage to each attack. It's not a choice, and there's no penalty: they just get +1 damage.

- They can deal the bonus +10 damage once per round. Penalty applies to all attacks, though.

- Called Shot: instead of attacking two or more times, attack once with advantage, and deal +10 damage if you hit. Sacrifices actions instead of accuracy.

[Kane0]

- Gain +1 Str/Dex instead of the +damage option, making GWF/Sharpshooter a half feat

- Add half prof bonus to damage, no penalty to hit and no choice

- Apply prof bonus to damage once per turn, no penalty to hit

Personally I'm a fan of 5e largely removing +/- X to Y, so the retention of power attack/precise shot as part of GWF/Sharpshooter irked me.

[fishyfishyfishy]

You're way off target here. It's not sharpshooter that's overpowering, it is allowing variant human that is overpowering. Don't allow characters to take it at first level. Make the bonus feat something that also grants a +1 to an ability score.

Sharpshooter gives a -5 to hit. That is a huge difference with bounded accuracy. The extra damage is needed at later levels to keep up with the piles of HP that monsters have, but that penalty will ensure that a few attacks miss.

[Malifice]

So one of my players took Sharpshooter at level 1 and the damage bonus is a huge boost to his power, overshadowing everyone else in the party. Has anyone houseruled a fix to this feat in a way that still leaves it fun and worth having?

Perhaps capping the modifier at proficiency; at prof 2 you can take a -1 hit/+2 dmg, prof 3 no change, prof 4 it's -2 hit/+4 dmg, etc?

How so?

Even with Archery F/S and a Dex of 16, he gets what... +2 to hit?

Against AC 15, its a DPR increase of just under 2 points per round (0.4 x 18.5) 7.4 (0.65 x 8.5) 5.525.

[Nifft]

Sharpshooter gives a -5 to hit. That is a huge difference with bounded accuracy.

It's supposed to be, but I've seen a lot of people reporting that it's really easy to get back the 5 points of accuracy (Bless is a part of this).

When you can get 4 or 5 points back, it's not a trade-off, it's a no-brainer.

[Malifice]

You're way off target here. It's not sharpshooter that's overpowering, it is allowing variant human that is overpowering. Don't allow characters to take it at first level. Make the bonus feat something that also grants a +1 to an ability score.

Respectfully disagree.

I give everyone a bonus feat at 1st level; humans get 2 in total.

I find it's not overpowered at all. You probably notice the feats once or twice a session, but they really let certain concepts be viable from 1st level.

[Person_Man]

I'm not seeing why would Sharpshooter be overpowered at 1st level. The majority of enemies that the PCs fight at low levels should be killed in 1 or 2 attacks. So he's missing 25%ish more often in exchange for an assured kill. Seems reasonable to me.

[Malifice]

It's supposed to be, but I've seen a lot of people reporting that it's really easy to get back the 5 points of accuracy (Bless is a part of this).

When you can get 4 or 5 points back, it's not a trade-off, it's a no-brainer.

The solution is to use more mooks in your encounter design.

Seriously. Solo encounters are not viable in 5e (barring legendary creatures).

[Kane0]

I can attest to that.

5 level 11 dudes with magic item support walloped a single CR 23 enemy because he wasn't using lair/legendary actions.

[ZenBear]

To clarify some things:

All characters have a bonus feat at 1, he's a wood elf rogue so limiting to one attack per turn is meaningless.

Considering most low CR enemies have very low AC the-5 to hit isn't that hard to overcome. They fought a Wight and a Wraith which both have 13 AC iirc and his power attacks did cost him a couple misses, but compared to the Paladin who is doing 5-10 damage per hit to his 12-24 (and casters 1-6/8) it more than makes up the difference.

Pumping the AC of the monsters artificially increases CR and affects the entire party, not just him. That doesn't solve the problem, it just causes more of them.

I kinda like the idea of spending a bonus action to add prof to damage. Limits to once per turn which is again irrelevant to a Rogue but losing cunning action is a big deal in certain situations. I could try that out and post how it goes.

[Pex]

So one of my players took Sharpshooter at level 1 and the damage bonus is a huge boost to his power, overshadowing everyone else in the party. Has anyone houseruled a fix to this feat in a way that still leaves it fun and worth having?

Perhaps capping the modifier at proficiency; at prof 2 you can take a -1 hit/+2 dmg, prof 3 no change, prof 4 it's -2 hit/+4 dmg, etc?

Did you know it's possible for a PC to deal 8d6 damage to everyone within a 20 ft radius from 150 ft away? I'd first tackle that overpoweredness before you consider something as meager as whatever Sharpshooter can do.

[Malifice]

I can attest to that.

5 level 11 dudes with magic item support walloped a single CR 23 enemy because he wasn't using lair/legendary actions.

Yeah.

A ton of the angst for these feats is from DM's who routinely throw single monster encounters at PC's.

4 kobolds, plus a kobold 'thug' boss (all riding giant wolf spiders) is 1125 xp (or just on a 'hard' encounter for 5 PC's of 3rd level).

[Kane0]

Might want 2-3 of those per short rest then, too. That way there's more chance the archer will come under fire as his front line and support gets more and more stung out.

Because he's playing a rogue a miss is a big deal, and he shouldn't be missing much. Once level 5 rocks around and your paladin has a second swing you'll see the damage average out over more fights.
Being a rogue is all about lots of damage in a single hit, let him have that. The -5 essentially counteracts the advantage he always wants to have sneak attack damage.

Trust me, the damage of sharpshooter will be the least of your concerns once you get to the stage where a canny rogue player will be very, very difficult to put down in a fight.

[Mara]

No. The feat is working as intended. What you are seeing is suppose to happen.

[Malifice]

To clarify some things:

All characters have a bonus feat at 1, he's a wood elf rogue so limiting to one attack per turn is meaningless.

As a Rogue, sharpshooter is actually a poor trade off, that gets worse as he levels.


Considering most low CR enemies have very low AC the-5 to hit isn't that hard to overcome. They fought a Wight and a Wraith which both have 13 AC iirc and his power attacks did cost him a couple misses, but compared to the Paladin who is doing 5-10 damage per hit to his 12-24 (and casters 1-6/8) it more than makes up the difference.

It just feels worse, the actual increase in DPR is minimal.

As a Rogue he does not have archery F/S, and his Dex is 16 at this level, so he's getting +5 to hit (or +0 to hit with SS). I'll assume sneak attack +2d6 in the following calculations.

The damage Vs AC 13 with a dex of 16, attack bonus of +5, longbow, and sneak attack +2d6=

Sharpshooter 'off': (13/20)0.65/14.5 =9.425
SS 'on': (8/20) 0.4/24.4 = 9.76

He's dealing a whopping 0.3 DPR more with Sharpshooter vs AC 13 than without it.


Pumping the AC of the monsters artificially increases CR and affects the entire party, not just him. That doesn't solve the problem, it just causes more of them.

Add more mooks.

[RenaldoS]

I don't think looking at averages tells the whole tale. That argument ignores that the variance has great increased, which might feel unsatisfying.

[Malifice]

I don't think looking at averages tells the whole tale. That argument ignores that the variance has great increased, which might feel unsatisfying.

True; there is now a greater swing (miss totally - hit real hard). But people tend to underestimate the impact of -5 on a D20. 5 attacks that would have hit, now miss.

That's huge.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Honestly, have you considered not changing it and just letting the rogue be over-powered for a couple levels?

For a rogue, Sharp-shooter should start making a lot less difference after your party levels up a few times, the problem isn't the feat so much as that he got it so early.



Did you know it's possible for a PC to deal 8d6 damage to everyone within a 20 ft radius from 150 ft away? I'd first tackle that overpoweredness before you consider something as meager as whatever Sharpshooter can do.
Yes, it's completely reasonable to bring level 6 abilities into a discussion of a DM finding something over-powered at first level.

By the time the PCs get Fireball, the quality of monster they're expected to face has changed drastically.

[Malifice]

Honestly, have you considered not changing it and just letting the rogue be over-powered for a couple levels?

Yeah. It's not OP at all. It's a niche ability that works great on low AC/ high HP monsters.

Change your tactics. Your encounters should regularly feature fights with high AC/ low HP creatures (mooks) in addition to a brute or two.

[JoeJ]

So a 1st level character with DEX 16, Sharpshooter feat, and proficiency in longbow against some sample first level threats, assuming average damage:

Goblin
Without SS: hits on 10+, 1 shot to kill
With SS: hits on 15+, 1 shot to kill

Goblin Boss
Without SS: hits on 12+, 3 shots to kill
With SS: hits on 17+, 2 shots to kill

Hobgoblin
Without SS: hits on 13+, 2 shots to kill
With SS: Hits on 18+, 1 shot to kill

Bugbear
Without SS: hits on 11+, 4 shots to kill
With SS: hits on 16+, 2 shots to kill

Ghoul
Without SS: hits on 7+, 3 shots to kill
With SS: hits on 12+, 2 shots to kill

Gnoll
Without SS: hits on 10+, 3 shots to kill
With SS: hits on 15+, 2 shots to kill

Bandit
Without SS: hits on 7+, 2 shots to kill
With SS: hits on 12+, 1 shot to kill

Giant Wolf Spider
Without SS: hits on 8+, 2 shots to kill
With SS: hits on 13+, 1 shot to kill

Brown Bear
Without SS: hits on 6+, 5 shots to kill
With SS: hits on 11+, 2 shots to kill

Worg
Without SS: hits on 8+, 4 shots to kill
With SS: hits on 13+, 2 shots to kill

It looks like the only time sharpshooter gives a big boost is when facing a single target with a lot of hit points and a low AC. With a better AC, it becomes a more even trade off, and against an enemy with low hit points it's a complete waste. So if the archer is getting too much spotlight, try having the group encounter larger numbers of less powerful enemies to keep things more balanced with the other PCs.

[TheOOB]

Also important to note, 1st and 2nd level are each supposed to last 1 sessions by the baseline rules, and everyone gets a feat by level 4. Sharpshooter isn't overpowered at any level, it is better at really low levels(though at significant cost of increased randomness), but those levels don't last long enough to balance abilitys heavily upon.

[Coidzor]

True; there is now a greater swing (miss totally - hit real hard). But people tend to underestimate the impact of -5 on a D20. 5 attacks that would have hit, now miss.

That's huge.

Even with regular access to advantage?

[Malifice]

Even with regular access to advantage?

From what exactly?

[Pex]

Yes, it's completely reasonable to bring level 6 abilities into a discussion of a DM finding something over-powered at first level.

By the time the PCs get Fireball, the quality of monster they're expected to face has changed drastically.

Just trying to show perspective that a PC dealing lots of damage by some means it's not necessarily a problem.

[Demonic Spoon]

Also keep in mind that sharpshooter is going to seem really strong because you're going to remember spectacular hits more than you remember misses.

That time your archer dropped a 16-hitpoint creature from full to nothing in one shot is going to be a lot more memorable than those 3 times the -5 made him miss the shot.