ToB question , readied manuvers

[Hurnn]

I was reading an older post on pros and cons of each class and it was mentioned that you can not ready a maneuver more than once. I have read through my ToB a couple times looking for a specific rule/statement to that effect, and have found several places where it is heavily implied but nothing specific. Am I just missing it?

[KillianHawkeye]

You're asking the wrong question. More to the point, the rules do not state that you can have a maneuver readied more than once; they only refer to maneuvers being readied or not readied. Without an explicit statement saying that you can ready multiple copies of a maneuver, you cannot do so.

[BowStreetRunner]

You're asking the wrong question. More to the point, the rules do not state that you can have a maneuver readied more than once; they only refer to maneuvers being readied or not readied. Without an explicit statement saying that you can ready multiple copies of a maneuver, you cannot do so.
Generally there are two points of view about rules like this - one that anything not explicitly permitted is prohibited and the other that anything not explicitly prohibited is permitted. Usually, both are acceptable conclusion in the absence of any rule to the contrary.

In this instance the key is not that the rules don't say you can ready a maneuver more than once, but that since they do state that when a maneuver is used it becomes EXPENDED you would need some rule allowing you to ignore it's state as an expended maneuver in order to use it again.

Keep in mind that spellcasters generally have limited spell slots per day, whereas martial adepts not only have a recovery method but they also get to reset every encounter. So being able to ready a maneuver more than once is really not all that critical to a martial adept.

[Chronos]

In this instance the key is not that the rules don't say you can ready a maneuver more than once, but that since they do state that when a maneuver is used it becomes EXPENDED you would need some rule allowing you to ignore it's state as an expended maneuver in order to use it again.
Under this interpretation, it might still be worthwhile in some niche cases to prepare a maneuver more than once, if you're multiclassed and want to choose during battle which way you want the maneuver to be refreshed.

[BowStreetRunner]

Under this interpretation, it might still be worthwhile in some niche cases to prepare a maneuver more than once, if you're multiclassed and want to choose during battle which way you want the maneuver to be refreshed.
A maneuver is either prepared or it isn't. There is no Double or Triple Prepared.

[Hurnn]

thanks for the answer guys

[5ColouredWalker]

Can a wizard prepare the same spell multiple times?
Why shouldn't a Warblade/Swordsage be able to?

[OldTrees1]

Can a wizard prepare the same spell multiple times?
Why shouldn't a Warblade/Swordsage be able to?

I noticed you used "should".
Is your question about RAW or about DM rulings?

[5ColouredWalker]

First, RAW, show me where it say's they can't ready a manuever multiple times. If you can't show me, then there's two real lines of debate:
Should it be prevented for reason X?
Should it be allowed for reason Y?

I haven't seen anything when reading that prevents readying a manuever multiple times, but feel free to show me a a line of RAW and I'd accept that as a shouldn't... And then rule 0 that out of any game I play. Otherwise, feel free to bring up arguments outside of RAW, but you'd have to be pretty convincing for me to not want to insult you.

[Necroticplague]

Generally there are two points of view about rules like this - one that anything not explicitly permitted is prohibited and the other that anything not explicitly prohibited is permitted. Usually, both are acceptable conclusion in the absence of any rule to the contrary.

Not really. Only the first gets you any form of consistency within the rules. To quote a post I've seen a long time ago "It doesn't say that human's can't can't shoot insta-death lasers out of their eyes." Within the dnd rules, you can do nothing unless something in the rules says you can. The basic action system is set up to give everyone a baseline capability to act, and then their own ability gives them a further capacity to act.

@five-coloured walker:
Yes, a wizard can do that. However, that's because they have a line of text that specifically says they can (on the SRD, it's the third line under 'preparing wizard spells'). A martial initiator lacks any such explicit permission to do so. Thus, they cannot.

[KillianHawkeye]

First, RAW, show me where it say's they can't ready a manuever multiple times. If you can't show me, then there's two real lines of debate:
Should it be prevented for reason X?
Should it be allowed for reason Y?

I haven't seen anything when reading that prevents readying a manuever multiple times, but feel free to show me a a line of RAW and I'd accept that as a shouldn't... And then rule 0 that out of any game I play. Otherwise, feel free to bring up arguments outside of RAW, but you'd have to be pretty convincing for me to not want to insult you.

You're not actually trying to use the "Air Bud" Defense to justify your position, are you?

I can just as easily ask you to show me a line of RAW that allows multiple copies of a maneuver to be readied. You can't just compare martial initiators to spellcasters, draw some unfounded parallels between them, and treat them like unwritten rules. That isn't how logic and reason work.

To quote Christopher Hitchens, “That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.”

And please, if you happen to feel a desire to insult others, kindly keep it to yourself in the future. :smallannoyed:

[OldTrees1]

First, RAW, show me where it say's they can't ready a manuever multiple times. If you can't show me, then there's two real lines of debate:
Should it be prevented for reason X?
Should it be allowed for reason Y?

I haven't seen anything when reading that prevents readying a maneuver multiple times, but feel free to show me a a line of RAW and I'd accept that as a shouldn't... And then rule 0 that out of any game I play. Otherwise, feel free to bring up arguments outside of RAW, but you'd have to be pretty convincing for me to not want to insult you.

Here are 2 examples I want you to remember. I believe you are familiar with one(their form matters, their content doesn't) but have not remembered the other(as evidenced by your "anything not forbidden is permitted" bias).
The rules don't say I can do the hokey pokey, therefore I can't.
The rules don't say I can't use the hokey pokey to heal to full, therefore I can.



Reason X: Maneuvers get expended and then refreshed.
This concept, while compatible with hypothetical systems where you can ready the same maneuver twice, has a better fit with systems where you can't. Likewise a refreshing multiple readying system is just a poorly designed relative of an At Will system.

Reason Y: A Crusader with White Raven Tactics every turn is not going to break the game worse than a PHB Wizard.

[Chronos]

BowStreetRunner, I was referring to this, from your post:


In this instance the key is not that the rules don't say you can ready a maneuver more than once, but that since they do state that when a maneuver is used it becomes EXPENDED you would need some rule allowing you to ignore it's state as an expended maneuver in order to use it again.
So I'm picturing a multiclass warblade/crusader, say, who prepares the same maneuver as both. He can choose to use it as either class, and whichever one he picks, once he's used it, it's expended, and he can't use it again until he refreshes. But how he refreshes it will depend on which class he used it as. And yeah, like I said, that's pretty niche.

Oh, and OldTrees1,

Reason Y: A Crusader with White Raven Tactics every turn is not going to break the game worse than a PHB Wizard.
He is if he's allowed to use it on himself. And even if he's not, two of them are still going to break the game worse than two wizards.

[BowStreetRunner]

BowStreetRunner, I was referring to this, from your post:


So I'm picturing a multiclass warblade/crusader, say, who prepares the same maneuver as both. He can choose to use it as either class, and whichever one he picks, once he's used it, it's expended, and he can't use it again until he refreshes. But how he refreshes it will depend on which class he used it as. And yeah, like I said, that's pretty niche.
You have a valid point here. I hadn't been thinking along those lines.

More to the central topic though, starting on page 37: "A martial maneuver is a discrete extraordinary or supernatural effect that is temporarily expended after use...You can use a particular stance or maneuver as many times as you like in a single day, but each time you use a maneuver, you temporarily expend it...In other words, you can’t use an expended maneuver again until you rest for a brief time or perform a specific action in combat that allows you to recover one or more expended maneuvers...As a result, you can normally use each of your readied maneuvers once per encounter, but sometimes you can recover one or more maneuvers you used earlier in the encounter and use them again."

So effectively the rules DO state that you cannot use a maneuver again once it is expended and in order to use it more than once without resting or using your recovery method you would need some rule explicitly stating that you could do so. There is no rule of which I am aware that explicitly allows you to get around the rule above (you can’t use an expended maneuver again until you rest or recover) by readying a maneuver more than once.

[Necroticplague]

You have a valid point here. I hadn't been thinking along those lines.

More to the central topic though, starting on page 37: "A martial maneuver is a discrete extraordinary or supernatural effect that is temporarily expended after use...You can use a particular stance or maneuver as many times as you like in a single day, but each time you use a maneuver, you temporarily expend it...In other words, you can’t use an expended maneuver again until you rest for a brief time or perform a specific action in combat that allows you to recover one or more expended maneuvers...As a result, you can normally use each of your readied maneuvers once per encounter, but sometimes you can recover one or more maneuvers you used earlier in the encounter and use them again."

So effectively the rules DO state that you cannot use a maneuver again once it is expended and in order to use it more than once without resting or using your recovery method you would need some rule explicitly stating that you could do so. There is no rule of which I am aware that explicitly allows you to get around the rule above (you can’t use an expended maneuver again until you rest or recover) by readying a maneuver more than once.

Um, the post you're responding to isn't saying you can prep a maneuver multiple times to use it more than once before recovering. They're saying if you, say, are a crusader/warblade, you could prep the maneuver as both, then, once you use the maneuver, you could regain it either by waiting (for the crusader) or using your swift action (warblade), since at that point, its prepped as both, and thus either recovery method applies.

[BowStreetRunner]

Um, the post you're responding to isn't saying you can prep a maneuver multiple times to use it more than once before recovering. They're saying if you, say, are a crusader/warblade, you could prep the maneuver as both, then, once you use the maneuver, you could regain it either by waiting (for the crusader) or using your swift action (warblade), since at that point, its prepped as both, and thus either recovery method applies.

I addressed that in the first two sentences of my post. Then I jumped back to the main topic of the thread at the point where I stated "More to the central topic though..." I realize that Chronos has a valid point about multi-class characters and acknowledged as much.

[Necroticplague]

I addressed that in the first two sentences of my post. Then I jumped back to the main topic of the thread at the point where I stated "More to the central topic though..." I realize that Chronos has a valid point about multi-class characters and acknowledged as much.

Blarg, I am just full of not looking carefully at stuff today. Sorry.

[Segev]

If a Warblade 1/Crusader 1 knows a White Raven maneuver that he wishes to ready with both classes, it still becomes expended when he uses it. However, he may either spend a standard action on a melee attack to refresh it, or he may wait for it to become "granted" by his Crusader class features.

Having multiple classes means you can refresh manuvers readied with those classes per those classes' refresh mechanic. Having it readied once per class means that particular maneuver has many options for refreshing. It's probably still not a good use of your manevers-readied count, but it is an option.

(The Warblade, for instance, might use that White Raven maneuver in round 1, even though he doesn't have it Granted yet. In round 3, when it gets Granted, he could use it again.)

[Nifft]

Sorcerers can't double-know spells. The spell is either known or not.

Sorcerers are different from Wizards.


Martial Adepts can't double-ready maneuvers. The maneuver is either readied or not.

Martial Adepts are also different from Wizards.


Wizards are great, but not everything is a Wizard, and that's okay.

[Necroticplague]

(The Warblade, for instance, might use that White Raven maneuver in round 1, even though he doesn't have it Granted yet. In round 3, when it gets Granted, he could use it again.)

Actually, that wouldn't work. The process of being granted a maneuver does not refresh it. You wouldn't refresh the maneuver automatically until you had been Granted all your maneuvers, and had to being anew (which is when your maneuvers are refreshed).

[Segev]

Actually, that wouldn't work. The process of being granted a maneuver does not refresh it. You wouldn't refresh the maneuver automatically until you had been Granted all your maneuvers, and had to being anew (which is when your maneuvers are refreshed).

Hm, you're right. So even that little bit of possible use doesn't work.

Yeah, I think it'd just be a bad idea; it doesn't help you at all, by the RAW, to ready a maneuver in two different classes' readied slots.