[DSP/PF] You Only Get One Shot: The Marksman Mini-Guide

[Novawurmson]

LINK TO THE GUIDE (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1h_LDT7hg3El9JGxWQjA-1CvMunpbOjrfW8RJglFq9ys/edit?usp=sharing)

Hello, everyone!

When Psionics Expanded was in playtesting, I gave myself a goal of trying to make a guide for each of the six classes it contained. Four years later, I've got a good Aegis guide and a decent Tactician guide. Psybomb and Psyren have put out guides for the Dread and Vitalist, respectively, but the Cryptic and Marksman remain mostly untouched (my scraps of a Cryptic guide notwithstanding).

However, its a little silly not to have a guide for the Marksman. The Marksman is a ranged attacker. You want to make ranged attacks? Play a marksman. Don’t want to make ranged attacks? Keep moving. So, with that in mind, I've tried to create a "mini guide" with the bare essentials to get your Marksman up and running.

Unlike 3.5, you don’t need to bend over backwards to be a good ranged attacker in Pathfinder - you can be a great archer with nothing but CRB feats. Everything the Marksman gives you on top of that is just pure gravy. The marksman should be able to contribute to every party; I’d generally classify it as a tier 4 class.

There's still work to be done - the Powers section in particular is still under construction. However, I feel it's in good enough condition to be helpful.

Thanks for reading this!

[Tulya]

Read the Wind is a resource for Wind Strike (No save daze on attacks for 1 round), so it should stay relevant indefinitely even if just for that. Of course, some consider Wind Strike to be abusive/cheesy since building to beat AC is easier than cranking save DCs.

[CGNefarious]

I like this guide. I recently looked over the Marksman as an idea for on side of a ranged gestalt character, and I think it's my favorite ranged class so far. I came to a lot of the same conclusion as you did about their abilities, though you seem to have much more insight into what makes ranged combat effective than I do. And I can't see many reasons not to go with the Shroud archetype. It's just awesome.

If possible I'd like to see a little more detail behind why you rated certain races blue or green. Surely there is more to consider than just stat bonuses? Like the goblin, for instance, gets a +4 racial bonus to stealth, combined with his +4 size bonus to stealth for a +8. That's perfect for a stealthy Sniper or a Shroud.

Some good traits to consider would also be nice, though a lot of guides don't have such a section. And I understand why. There are an insane amount of traits, and going through them all must be very daunting.

Question, do you find any of the styles to be particularly stronger overall than the other two?

[TiaC]

(my scraps of a Cryptic guide notwithstanding).
Hm, I also have scraps of a cryptic guide.

Allow me to point out that Fury of a Single Blade works with all sorts of single-attack boosts, e.g. Intuitive Shot.

[Extra Anchovies]

A thing: you can't use Cover Fire in a full attack. There are a few different things that establish or reiterate that an attack action is a special kind of standard action. Here's (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9pyy) the first one that I could find. There's also this (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9pyv), which explains that "as an attack action" and "in place of an attack" are different.

[Novawurmson]

Read the Wind is a resource for Wind Strike (No save daze on attacks for 1 round), so it should stay relevant indefinitely even if just for that. Of course, some consider Wind Strike to be abusive/cheesy since building to beat AC is easier than cranking save DCs.

I meant to include a section on it under Powers, but it's divisive enough to warrant its own section. I added a large discussion of it to the doc.


And I can't see many reasons not to go with the Shroud archetype. It's just awesome.

I really adore it. It's almost how I feel all stealth classes should work.


If possible I'd like to see a little more detail behind why you rated certain races blue or green. Surely there is more to consider than just stat bonuses? Like the goblin, for instance, gets a +4 racial bonus to stealth, combined with his +4 size bonus to stealth for a +8. That's perfect for a stealthy Sniper or a Shroud.

I made a note about goblins (because the stacking bonuses really is worth mentioning), but for the most part, I don't feel like most of the differences between the races is nearly as important for a marksman as a melee character. Is a +1 natural armor bonus important for a melee character? Absolutely - with the number of times they're going to be attacked, it could mean a difference of hundreds of damage over the course of a long campaign. For a marksman? Probably not, or at least not nearly as much. Does a difference of 10ft. of movement matter to a melee character? Yeah, it often determines whether or not they can actually deal damage. To a marksman? Eh. Reach? Amazing for melee, worthless for marksman (discounting cannoneers and spearmen for the moment).

I mean, what's the real difference between a Vanara and a Tengu marksman? Climb speed vs. Gifted Linguist? It's really down to personal preference.


Some good traits to consider would also be nice, though a lot of guides don't have such a section. And I understand why. There are an insane amount of traits, and going through them all must be very daunting.

As far as I know, there aren't really any traits that affect marksmen that heavily. Maybe Psionic Knack for multiclassed marksmen?


Question, do you find any of the styles to be particularly stronger overall than the other two?

I'd say that in terms of raw DPR, the Volley marksman is probably the strongest. There are just so many ways to add damage to each of your attacks that adding more attacks is pretty brutal. The Sniper is my personal favorite, though. There's an argument to be made that the accuracy boost from Finesse interacts very favorably with the accuracy penalties that archers accept for Rapid Fire+Deadly Aim, but it does lag a bit behind the other two.


Hm, I also have scraps of a cryptic guide.

Feel free to steal any of what I've got posted, or we can talk about a collaboration.


Allow me to point out that Fury of a Single Blade works with all sorts of single-attack boosts, e.g. Intuitive Shot.

Excellent point. Added.


A thing: you can't use Cover Fire in a full attack. There are a few different things that establish or reiterate that an attack action is a special kind of attack action. Here's (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9pyy) the first one that I could find. There's also this (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9pyv), which explains that "as an attack action" and "in place of an attack" are different.

Bah. I thought it was the same wording as trip/disarm/sunder. My bad, fixed it.

[Sayt]

Akashic Mysteries is going to include a feat called Powerful Throw, which gives you Str to hit with thrown weapons and lets you use power attack for thrown, which seems good for Spearman builds, at the very least.

[Novawurmson]

Akashic Mysteries is going to include a feat called Powerful Throw, which gives you Str to hit with thrown weapons and lets you use power attack for thrown, which seems good for Spearman builds, at the very least.

THANK YOU! I was sure I saw a feat like that in a DSP product, but I couldn't find it in any of the psionics or PoW stuff.

[stack]

Akashic mysteries also enables CHA-based throwers, but that seems unlikely for a marksman build.

The Adaptable Gunner akashic archetype will require comment as well, though I understand if you prefer to wait until its fully released. One note is that it can make better use of fell shot that most builds. Essence focus is also an interesting feat for akashic-leaning marksmen, since it let's you get double use form expending focus, great for combining fell shot and psionic shot or fell shot and greater intuitive shot.

[Ssalarn]

Akashic Mysteries is going to include a feat called Powerful Throw, which gives you Str to hit with thrown weapons and lets you use power attack for thrown, which seems good for Spearman builds, at the very least.

Technically speaking, Powerful Throw has already been published as part of the Daevic release, so it's not just going to be out, it is out. Makes for some fun builds.

Everything from the Supplemental, including the Adaptive Gunner, is in layout now, so it's unlikely there will be further changes to most of those materials if someone feels like adding it to the guide.

[Novawurmson]

Hey Ssalarn, since you're in the thread anyway: Essence Focus doesn't have the same limitation Deep Focus and Psicrystal Containment share that you can't have more than 2 foci at a time (and thus you could take Essence Focus+Deep Focus/Psicrystal Containment and end up with 3 foci expended at once). Is this intentional?

[stack]

Essence focus doesn't grant a focus, it just lets you recover it, like psionic meditation, while also allowing you to use each expenditure of focus twice.

[RolkFlameraven]

Essence focus doesn't grant a focus, it just lets you recover it, like psionic meditation, while also allowing you to use each expenditure of focus twice.

Like the old 3.5 epic feat? So four metapsionic feats at once would be possible. Will have to take a look.

[Ssalarn]

Essence focus doesn't grant a focus, it just lets you recover it, like psionic meditation, while also allowing you to use each expenditure of focus twice.

Note that the dual activation bit requires that both powers be eligible to activate as part of the same action, and investing essence into the feat (necessary for both pieces of its functionality) is a move action. You can juice up a bit for a burst round by investing essence in round 1 and then executing your big move in the next round, but I think that the prep deserves the ROI. Or you can stand still and pop a Quickened power off your psicrystal and then apply two metamagic feats to another power, but at that point it's just "Welcome to things wizards can do with a much smaller expenditure of resources".

You could potentially pull off a big 3 focus volley, but it's definitely not something you can spam, and you're going to have to stretch a bit to use it effectively more than once per combat without taking a pretty big hit somewhere, since most builds that use essence are pretty hungry for every point they get, and if you're a single-classed psion deriving essence through feats and/or racial traits, you're putting an awful lot of character resource into an ability that requires pretty careful execution.

Remember, the feat has the same essence cap as all receptacles, and it locks the invested essence for 3 rounds.

[Novawurmson]

Before I say anything else, I suddenly realized that Essence Focus should probably be an [Akashic, Psionic] feat, as should Akashic Augmentation and Body-Bound Mind. But I'm getting sidetracked.

Lemme spell out what I'm thinking in context of the marksman:

Level 8 Sniper Marksman, wielding a +1 flaming composite longbow

Feats

Human Bonus - Essence Focus
Level 1 Bonus - Point Blank Shot
Level 1 - Deadly Aim
Level 3 - Psicrystal Affinity
Level 5 Bonus - Psionic Shot
Level 5 - Psicrystal Containment
Level 7 - Greater Psionic Shot
Level 8 Bonus - Vital Strike

Move action to invest essence, standard action to Vital Strike.

Expend focus for style technique (+Wis to damage)
Expend focus for Augmented Shot (increase weapon damage by 1 die)
Expend focus for Greater Psionic Shot

Damage 2d8+2d8 (Vital Strike+Augmented Shot)+4d6+2 (Greater Psionic Shot)+Wis (style technique)+6 (Deadly Aim)+Str (composite bow)+3 (mantra)+2 (human favored class)+4 (offensive prescience+1d6+1 (weapon enhancements)

Average of 53.5+Wis+Str+weapon modifier damage per hit.

...huh. That's actually pretty underwhelming for what's invested. I still think it's potentially much more abusable by a full manifester, but in context of the marksman, maybe it's not too bad.

[Ssalarn]

Before I say anything else, I suddenly realized that Essence Focus should probably be an [Akashic, Psionic] feat, as should Akashic Augmentation and Body-Bound Mind. But I'm getting sidetracked.

That fix has already been made in the Supplemental release.



Lemme spell out what I'm thinking in context of the marksman:

Level 8 Sniper Marksman, wielding a +1 flaming composite longbow

Feats

Human Bonus - Essence Focus
Level 1 Bonus - Point Blank Shot
Level 1 - Deadly Aim
Level 3 - Psicrystal Affinity
Level 5 Bonus - Psionic Shot
Level 5 - Psicrystal Containment
Level 7 - Greater Psionic Shot
Level 8 Bonus - Vital Strike

Move action to invest essence, standard action to Vital Strike.

Expend focus for style technique (+Wis to damage)
Expend focus for Augmented Shot (increase weapon damage by 1 die)
Expend focus for Greater Psionic Shot

Damage 2d8+2d8 (Vital Strike+Augmented Shot)+4d6+2 (Greater Psionic Shot)+Wis (style technique)+6 (Deadly Aim)+Str (composite bow)+3 (mantra)+2 (human favored class)+4 (offensive prescience+1d6+1 (weapon enhancements)

Average of 53.5+Wis+Str+weapon modifier damage per hit.

...huh. That's actually pretty underwhelming for what's invested. I still think it's potentially much more abusable by a full manifester, but in context of the marksman, maybe it's not too bad.

Yeah, Marksman already is more about options than output. I think if anyone is going to find a way to really crack Essence Focus open, it would be someone like an Amplifier who has enough essence and enough manifesting to really squeeze some juice out of it. Even then, since psionics are so much better balanced than traditional casting, you're going to have a hard time finding something truly game breaking.

[Tulya]

There was a discussion on the old boards about Augmented Shot and oversized weapons that I don't think officially went anywhere.

In short, the rules as written prevent you from going full-on absurd with oversized weapons because they only ever add one die per incrementation. If that weren't the case, Half-Giant with augmented Expansion wielding a Gargantuan Crossbow could shoot 64d8 bolts at 20th level from the Vital Strike/Augmented Shot combo.

However, it has the consequence of making higher damage weapons largely irrelevant - or potentially even worse than smaller ones. For example, a Half-Giant with a Large Longbow (2d6) hits for 20d6 [(2d6 + 3d6)*4], while a Human with a Medium Longbow (1d8) strikes for 16d8 [(1d8+3d8)*4]. That averages out to the half-giant dealing 2 less damage per shot. Not significant, but silly.

[Ssalarn]

There was a discussion on the old boards about Augmented Shot and oversized weapons that I don't think officially went anywhere.

In short, the rules as written prevent you from going full-on absurd with oversized weapons because they only ever add one die per incrementation. If that weren't the case, Half-Giant with augmented Expansion wielding a Gargantuan Crossbow could shoot 64d8 bolts at 20th level from the Vital Strike/Augmented Shot combo.

However, it has the consequence of making higher damage weapons largely irrelevant - or potentially even worse than smaller ones. For example, a Half-Giant with a Large Longbow (2d6) hits for 20d6 [(2d6 + 3d6)*4], while a Human with a Medium Longbow (1d8) strikes for 16d8 [(1d8+3d8)*4]. That averages out to the half-giant dealing 2 less damage per shot. Not significant, but silly.

As I recall, there was some discussion about looking in to potentially fixing that, but it hasn't really arisen as a priority since. I think at the end of the day, you probably just want to grab a short bow for your half giant instead, since that will get you d10's (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9t3f). The math is still close enough between the various weapon options that fixing the "problem", such as it is, is going to be fairly difficult without either adding a fair chunk of verbage to a book that's already using every bit of page space available, or that creates other issues somewhere else.

The closest thing I've come to an equitable fix would be adding the following line to Augmented Shot: "Weapons whose base damage die is comprised of multiple die (such as a Large longbow, which deals 2d6 damage), add an additional 2 points of damage per extra die granted by this ability". That's unofficial and just me spitballing of course, but it gives larger weapons a small boost that should turn things around enough to prevent the silliness of most single die weapons outscaling weapons with multiple damage die without pushing things into crazy town.

[Tulya]

I was thinking something along the lines of, "If the base weapon damage is 2d6 or greater, add 1d12 bonus damage each time instead." You're never penalized for going beyond the d10 mark, but the damage doesn't increase explosively with stacked size increases.

[Ssalarn]

I was thinking something along the lines of, "If the base weapon damage is 2d6 or greater, add 1d12 bonus damage each time instead." You're never penalized for going beyond the d10 mark, but the damage doesn't increase explosively with stacked size increases.

Not a terribly different result mathematically, though mine doesn't discriminate against 1d12 weapons and accounts for weapons that deal 2d4 (which get boned under a system that doesn't offer a boost until you hit 2d6).

It's generally a good idea to avoid arbitrary benchmarks like "2d6" in a system like Pathfinder, where you never know what whacky mechanic or weapon someone might want to combine with your design (or that you might design later).