Aristocrat's kind PC class?

[Rui]

Hello all! :smallsmile:

This is a question for both 3.5 and PF, as I can use both answers.

I understand the NPC class system: warrior is like a weak fighter, adept is like a weak wizard, expert is a sort of weak rogue, and commoner is just weak all the time.

But if one of my players wants to play a more "aristocrat-like" class, which options does he have? A class that fits for a noble. I'm talking about a PC class here.

Thanks ahead,
Rui.

[Red Fel]

I understand the NPC class system: warrior is like a weak fighter, adept is like a weak wizard, expert is a sort of weak rogue, and commoner is just weak all the time.

But if one of my players wants to play a more "aristocrat-like" class, which options does he have? A class that fits for a noble. I'm talking about a PC class here.

That really depends on how you define "noble." I mean, Samurai or Knight can get you "lesser noble" pretty easily.

If you're defining "noble" the way Aristocrat did - slightly less skilled than an Expert, but possessed of station and/or wealth - the former comes of being an NPC class, and the latter is something any PC can acquire over the course of a game.

You'll have to give us more, here. What is it that your player wants, exactly?

[Brova]

The Aristocrat is looking at a space that isn't really covered by PC classes. The guy who is in charge of a country (or smaller or large unit of civilization) is not really something that D&D captures. The one that's conceptually closest might be Marshal, as that captures the "leader of men" aspect. It's a bit on the weak side though, in terms of in game power.

[Thealtruistorc]

I would have to say Path of War's Warlord, as he has many leaderly abilities and the power for others to look up to him. This is to my knowledge the only well-built mundane class that effectively utilizes charisma.

[Grod_The_Giant]

There are knightly classes aplenty-- Knight, Marshal, White Raven-focused Warblade, Cavalier, more prestige classes than you can shake a stick at. There are feats like Landlord and Leadership that grant you land and/or followers, at least to a limited degree. There are classes for manipulative talky people (Bard, Investigator, assorted PrCs). You could argue that something like Factotum works as an idle-younger-son-who-dabbles-but-doesn't-master-a-trade.

[Dondasch]

The Noble from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting is technically a PC class, but it's arguably the single worst PC base class. Things like Truenamer, Monk, and Healer are all better than it. Heck, a Bard with no spells is just about strictly superior.

[Rui]

Thanks for the answers.

What I mean is, my player wants to play a character that spins around the idea of intrigues. He will multiclass for the purpose of battle, of course, but he wants to know if there is some class that gives you special abilities related to intrigue.

I'll check the Noble class and tell my player what you told me. Is there any other feat besides Leadership or Landlord that gives a player these tools?

[TheTeaMustFlow]

I'd actually say an interaction-focused rogue would fit pretty well. Or perhaps a bard with perform (oratory) instead of a musical instrument.

[Elric VIII]

I'd say just be a feat rogue, maybe going into exemplar. You're not as soldier-y as a fighter, but you've got skill points to put into diplomacy and knowledge. Take the educated feat to get K(local), K(history), and K(nobility and royalty) on your class list.

A noble will also be trained in swordsmanship. So Warblade is not an unreasonable class choice, either. If he focuses a bit more on Int for skills, he can use the Iron Heart and Diamond Mind disciplines as his well-trained swordplay without going into the over-the-top stuff and remaining only partially combat focused.

Any class can do reasonably well on the intrigue front with some well placed skill points. In fact, a bard that focuses on perform (oratory) to give tactical commands to his lessers in combat has all of the spells, skills, and skill points to be great at intrigue.

Realistically, this is more of a fluff decision over a mechanics one.

[Pluto!]

Taking Changeling Feat Rogue into the Spymaster prestige class could be pretty reasonable.

EDIT: Or just normal Rogue, if you're into that Sneak Attacking life.

[DrMotives]

With a base like that, you really have the best fluff reason ever to take dips in non-related classes. "Oh sure I dabbled a bit in wizardry, daddy hired the best of tutors. And yes, I did pick up a bit of that nature magic the savages use in my safari in Chult. It's great being a Rockefeller"

[Mando Knight]

I'd actually say an interaction-focused rogue would fit pretty well. Or perhaps a bard with perform (oratory) instead of a musical instrument.

Yeah, a knowledge/socialite-focused Rogue or Bard would fit well: a bit of fencing, a lot of skill with political intrigue, and you've got your blue-blood adventurer.

[The Viscount]

For the devoted dabbler there's always Ardent Dilettante. It's a pretty cool class that essentially requires you multiclass to enter. It has some nice bonuses, but the requirements for higher level require some careful planning.

[Red Fel]

Thanks for the answers.

What I mean is, my player wants to play a character that spins around the idea of intrigues. He will multiclass for the purpose of battle, of course, but he wants to know if there is some class that gives you special abilities related to intrigue.

I'll check the Noble class and tell my player what you told me. Is there any other feat besides Leadership or Landlord that gives a player these tools?

Insidious Corruptor is an option. It's a PrC from Drow of the Underdark. It does require Drow race, an Evil alignment, and the ability to cast Dominate Person, but it's kind of awesome for what you're describing. It's designed around the Claws of Influence class feature, which makes targets vulnerable to your coercion. You can sharpen or impede their senses, detect their thoughts, give them a single command (like "attack" or "move"), or even target them with a Dominate Monster effect. It's great for somebody who wants to manipulate others into doing his bidding.

But really, as others have said, what you're describing is fluff. Any character concept with high enough Charisma, or simply access to spellcasting (because spellcasting > all), can create intrigue and promote backstabbing and climb the ladder of chaos.

http://images.askmen.com/money/career/business-lessons-from-game-of-thrones_1432304420.jpg

Littlefinger isn't a class. It's a way of life.

[Sagetim]

A charisma focused bard is my suggestion, with a healthy dose of spells that boost his ability to lie and manipulate. Suggestion, Glibness, and at higher level Charm Monster and domination spells. Illusions would help too, letting him set up meetings between individuals that don't actually happen just to sow confusion and distrust and paranoia...

It also gets the core nobility skills: Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), Diplomacy, Perform (dance), Bluff, Disguise, Gather Information...you can do a lot with just the skills. And just because he's got bard levels doesn't mean he has to use bardic music abilities or what have you (though there is a feat like DMM for bards). Mix in Sublime Chord at high level and he can even be a high level (if discreet) spellcaster.

[Telonius]

Thanks for the answers.

What I mean is, my player wants to play a character that spins around the idea of intrigues. He will multiclass for the purpose of battle, of course, but he wants to know if there is some class that gives you special abilities related to intrigue.

I'll check the Noble class and tell my player what you told me. Is there any other feat besides Leadership or Landlord that gives a player these tools?

Built around Intrigue? Most of the Skillmonkeys could do this. Bard, Rogue, Factotum, and Beguiler are particularly well-suited. You could make a more magically-focused version with the right spell choices in Sorcerer or Wizard, or a Psionic version with a Telepath Psion. A Cleric with the Trickery domain could even work in certain circumstances.

[Gnaeus]

I'll check the Noble class and tell my player what you told me. Is there any other feat besides Leadership or Landlord that gives a player these tools?

There are feats that interact with the downtime and kingdom builder mini games, both available on the pfsrd. If he wanted to become a count or lead a band of soldiers both of those things can be accomplished that way.

There are also a number of other d20 classes that could be adopted with a little work. Wheel of Time had a noble class. Star Wars d20 had one. I'm sure there are a dozen others.

[Razanir]

I'll check the Noble class and tell my player what you told me.

Yeah... I just used the Site That Must Not Be Named to check it out. It's bad. Like if you really want to play a noble who can influence people, you'd be much better off with a Bard or a Marshall and just fluffing it as a nobleman.

[Segev]

I'm going to back up the idea of a bard with perform: Oratory. They have the knowledge and interaction skills one expects of a noble or socialite in class, and they can bolster allies and give fascinating speeches and even, eventually, move people to do their bidding with naught but their words.

Choose spells known carefully to reflect the aspects you want (glibness will be essential, when you gain second level spells). You can even fluff things like cure light wounds as a combination of basic triage and a rousing "get back in there and fight!" or "don't you die on me!" speech.

Intrigue isn't strongly supported in D&D, but a Bard has most of the tools D&D grants to enable it. A lot of it will be how he chooses to play and what you as DM allow to happen.

[radionausea]

The Pathfinder version of Freeport: City of Adventure has the Noble class. It has a few paths depending on if you want them to be dabblers in magic, more martial or more sneaky/intrigue oriented.

[mostholycerebus]

Frankly, this system doesnt really do much with these possibilities. Pretty much Skill use, and things that buff skill use. The only classes with actual abilities are Bard and Skald, couple those with Oratory and you have some unique things to do socially. Take Leadership for Followers, or you could go Telepath and RP some of the powers as socializing. But there are no auto special abilities like Favor checks, or whatever.

[DMVerdandi]

I have always thought it was kind of a shame that there was no decent noble class.
Yes, you can do it with any class that has a large amount of options, but nothing natively has that sort of feeling of REGNUM on it's own.

If anything can do it then it isn't special at all, and if you have a class based game, that means that every role in some way has something special about it.

I would have absolutely loved to see a base class that was just a way to show off someone who was just...better. Like, if it could have been somewhere in between a cleric, paragon racial class, and the paragon template [Not in raw power, just the fluff], that would have been perfect.
There would have to be some sort of thing that stopped everyone from wanting to be part of the noble class [Maybe a code of conduct], but it would be a cool thing to have.


I think an interesting thing would be, if this noble class existed, would it be a caster[I say yes], and then if so, what would the power source come from? Divine, Arcane, Psionic? New source of power?
What would the powers look like? what would they do?

[Coidzor]

You may find this bit on Leadership Mechanics in D&D (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9963.0) of interest.

[Psyren]

The Noble does indeed suck, but it can be optimized a little. For one, they can get any skill as a class skill, so they're one of the few classes in D&D that can get Iaijutsu Focus, and it fits on them since they have both the time and resources to pursue obscure knowledge. The Favors also allow them to break WBL by "borrowing" magic items - these would be allowed because they allow the Noble to participate in the adventure rather than circumventing it.

[nedz]

But if one of my players wants to play a more "aristocrat-like" class, which options does he have? A class that fits for a noble. I'm talking about a PC class here.


What I mean is, my player wants to play a character that spins around the idea of intrigues. He will multiclass for the purpose of battle, of course, but he wants to know if there is some class that gives you special abilities related to intrigue.

These are slightly different requirements, but then aristocrat is just character background: important RP stuff, but mechanically just fluff.

Intrigue: Skills of the interpersonal kind plus maybe some spells.

Changeling Rogue with the substitution level for Social Intuition (RE p121)
Changeling Rogue 1 / Beguiler 4 / Unseen Seer 10 maybe ?
Add in Knowledge Religion for your free class skill to pick up Arcane Disciple for your House's patron deity and you're set.
5d6 sneak, lots of skill points and level 7 spells by ECL 15

[Rainshine]

There is a PF PrC called Noble Scion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/n-r/noble-scion), but that covers more the rich and influential side of being noble, rather than intriguing.

[Thurbane]

Marshal always seemed to me to be like Aristocrat +.

More mechanically than thematically, I guess.

[Cwymbran-San]

Oriental Adventures - Rokugan has the Courtier base class. Relying on Information, bribery and diplomacy (along with blackmail and an assassination here and there), the Courtier is right at home in the arena of intrigue and wordplay. Littlefingers skillset is most likely a Courtier's.

The class is tailored to Rokugan/Japanese culture, some of its abilities are linked to the idea of honor and manipulating people with the concept of shame, but this could be easily adapted.

Has a ton of skillpoints and a +4 to all CH-related skills at first Level. Bonus feats every five levels. Double Bonus for Skill Focus if based on CHA, WIS or INT. Leadership for free at 9th Level, so you have someone (*cough* BRONN *cough*) to do the dirty work for you.

:smallsmile:

[Nifft]

Given what I know of history, I was tempted to say Thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) Fighter -- but the Thug doesn't get Heavy armor, and lacks the relevant Knowledge skills (esp. Nobility & Royalty).

I guess Aristocrat PCs would be multi-classed.