Kineticists Wild Talents: Can they count as spells?

[Xuldarinar]

A stupid question perhaps, but one I wanted to present. I was considering writing out my thoughts on VMC combinations with the occult classes, when it occurred to me that a number of combinations become viable if one counts them as such. So, really it comes down to a few questions.

Do they count?
Should they count?
Is there any harm in having that transparency?



With VMC, suddenly some options open up. VMC Magus, for instance.

[Novawurmson]

Wild talents are typically spell-like abilities (though some are supernatural abilities)

Most relevant text. They have an effective spell level, but they're spell-like or supernatural, as far as I'm reading.

[Xuldarinar]

Most relevant text. They have an effective spell level, but they're spell-like or supernatural, as far as I'm reading.



Given that, then the question is when can spell-like abilities count as spells?

[Psyren]

Generally they don't. In particular, spellstrike is not usable with SLAs, which I assume was the main one being asked about from a VMC Magus standpoint.

A recent FAQ also killed SLAs being used for qualification purposes, except when the specific SLA you're using matches the specific spell being asked for.

[Novawurmson]

On the other hand, you might try talking with your GM about it - what's RAW, what's fun, and what's good for the game can all be different things. From what I understand, the Kineticist is a little on the weak side, so giving it some Magus love might be just the thing it needs.

[N. Jolly]

A stupid question perhaps, but one I wanted to present. I was considering writing out my thoughts on VMC combinations with the occult classes, when it occurred to me that a number of combinations become viable if one counts them as such. So, really it comes down to a few questions.

Do they count?
Should they count?
Is there any harm in having that transparency?



With VMC, suddenly some options open up. VMC Magus, for instance.


Yeah, I'd say no, the entire class is written with a killjoy tone to optimization down to the rather minute features of it, so I wouldn't bet on it myself. SLA/Spell transparency died with the SLA reversal, so another nail in the coffin there.

[Xuldarinar]

Well, that completely and utterly kills most things. I mean, theres no harm in brew and house rules otherwise, but shame theres nothing official that presently allows such things. It could use compatibility at least as a way to raise it up.

Speaking of which, I put together some rules for it entering PrCs and being advanced by them. Its not as good as an official rule, but it opens up some doors for those wanting to bring them to the table. The text is, naturally, modeled after the shadowcaster's text for prestige classes, but thats largely because it was the example I had to work from.

KINETICISTS AND PRESTIGE CLASSES
-Kineticists are apart from traditional spellcasters and as such do not always qualify and advance for those available to more common magic users.
-Levels in kineticist qualfy a character for prestige classes with the following entry requirements.

A caster level requirement, if no type (excluding psychic) is specified.
Ability to cast spells of X level, if no type (aside from psychic) is specified.
Ability to use wild talents of X level, or a specific wild talent. None exist yet, to my knowledge, but here it is.


-Levels in kineticist do not qualify a character for prestige classes with the following requirements:

A caster level requirement where the type is specified, unless that type is psychic.
Ability to cast spells of X level where the type is specified, unless that type is psychic.
Ability to cast spells where the school is specified.
Ability to cast a specific spell, even if a wild talent exists with a similar effect.


-When advancing in a prestige class that states "+1 level of existing spellcasting class," "+1 level of existing psychic spellcasting class," or "+1 level of existing casting class," a kineticist adds those levels to his kineticist class for the purpose of determining his effective kineticist level when using wild talents, and for the purpose of gaining new wild talents.