Being Everything: Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook

[eggynack]

So, after roughly two years of work, it is finally completed. A druid handbook so massive that it could likely contain all of the words of every druid handbook written before it and still have plenty of room. There's almost certainly a bit of room for improvement around the edges, like an entry underwritten, or a syntax error unedited, or some linking between sections that largely doesn't exist yet. But it is, for the most part, coming your way a finished product. So, without further ado, here is the handbook.


The Basics (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YcZrU_D9k8e422LHd9RJ705WJ0-IzFkdES_A-C38_1o/edit#)
Feats (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aS_v_2E-zv0RHbGq7r62o9IyN0UONRHMODF9LrZBbio/edit#)
Magic Items (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1shTP_iyGQN2L43pmQO1wausVD9dtiK97SnLO6hqRRxY/edit#)
Prestige Classes (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qnEHZU5uNSJrEL_X8jOA2UTla7eaFZFcFQnqWa0zrmE/edit#)
Various Variants (https://docs.google.com/document/d/13529Xwb-lRT5TYi3c5LMNOpED8DrUE9GgZGLN9KjU38/edit#)
Spells (0th-4th) (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Geg_EBkDf1yzQN-c7TUIhUS8CUVvAufnxR2suKx_4eA/edit#)
Spells (5th-9th) (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aEDk5GHucfhp8n_rxghsJ9mMlOZvQ1YPFdB0ZIPq4Gc/edit#)
Summons (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ih-sX02HXPAW7NvsK4vuVsGqB0H0sk56dGrpr3Tsjeo/edit#)
Animal Companion (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VFFG89HGky597glps-AXSaqEtPjne1f5pNio9lAFzFk/edit#)
Wild Shape (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pooxPkI-orXC8MaSH7pzJ7D44oOQYwz4JIS6nseML38/edit#)
Alternate Wild Shape Forms (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LUJYY1XBEw0gqsdwhLjTzg33a_fHPaKqmMT36dQ1mfU/edit#)
Shifter and Exalted Druids (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1reo17DEJNw7T2PMrJX8mbZsmmQkzDYAsT9W6lBvRWBg/edit#)
Acknowledgements and FAQ (https://docs.google.com/document/d/128oEiyurmxa7vcWiuZjtX0thUGqCyH6VE4693i5im74/edit#)


Moreover, as an addendum to this handbook, I am coming to you with an entire handbook devoted to planar shepherds, constructed from the ground up by our own Reshy.

Reshy's Planar Shepherd Mini-Handbook (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1maqfzntJ6zAynJ4FQkWkDjJCUtCT0evHKefyBivtAx4/edit#)

[nedz]

This isn't a handbook — it's an encyclopaedia.

You have obviously spent a lot of time on this.

[AvatarVecna]

Your effort is not in vain; this is one of, if not THE, most comprehensive guide I've ever seen or heard of. By the Nine, what a handbook. I know what I'm doing tonight: reading through this until I go cross-eyed. :smallbiggrin:

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

This guide is both beautiful and terrifying, much like its subject matter.

[Hiro Quester]

Yeah. This guide is indispensable for guiding one to Druidic awesomeness and fun.

Thanks for finally putting it out there Eggynack. Now I can recommend it publicly and can direct others to it.

I've been using it (in draft form; thanks again for letting me take an early look, Eggy) for a quite a few weeks. I have kept coming back to it for advice when considering character options for the forest gnome Druid I'm playing.

[Bronk]

I'm glad to see the fully organized guide! Awesome! Would the 'elemental swarm' spell would be good to mention with the 'Rashemi Elemental Summoning' feat?

[eggynack]

I'm glad to see the fully organized guide! Awesome! Would the 'elemental swarm' spell would be good to mention with the 'Rashemi Elemental Summoning' feat?
Eh, I don't even have the spell mentioned in the first place, so I dunno that it's worth mentioning in the context of the feat. 9th's are universally in a weird spot, because there's this absolutely ridiculous spell over here, and then everything else is awful because of that spell. Elemental swarm is in a particularly uncomfortable place because of the existence of the siabrie, meanwhile, which casts the spell really well.

[ranagrande]

This guide is absolutely amazingly fantastic! It will take me quite some time to fully read and appreciate it.

I do have one suggestion for the Skills section though. Use Magic Device is just too good to imply that Druids cannot easily be awesome at it. Perhaps you could mention the Apprentice Spellcaster feat from DMG2 which will let them have UMD as a class skill.

[eggynack]

I do have one suggestion for the Skills section though. Use Magic Device is just too good to imply that Druids cannot easily be awesome at it. Perhaps you could mention the Apprentice Spellcaster feat from DMG2 which will let them have UMD as a class skill.
It's a very good skill, and druids can definitely make use of it if they want, but it's not the end all and be all like it is for some classes. Druids have their own casting, after all, and off of a broad list. And, while some methods of using that sort of item can be viable (say, contemplative dip for the magic domain), eating a feat for it just doesn't seem remotely worthwhile. Hence, the assertion that druids are worse at it, even if they're fine at it.

At the end of the day, just about everything related to druids needs to be judged on an incredibly harsh curve. Things that would be good for others, and that don't get better in druid hands, tend to be worse by sheer force of comparison. So, the druid could spend their feat on apprentice spellcaster, their skill points on UMD, and their money on wands, or they could just spend their feat on, say, gatekeeper initiate, their skill points on spot, and their money on a mantle of the beast. And that's assuming that you're eating into non-essential slots. At some point, that stops being the case, and you end up in a place where you could be spending the feat on rashemi elemental summoning, the points on concentration, and the money on a ring of the beast. The ultimate question, then, isn't really whether druids are good enough at UMD, but rather whether UMD is good enough for druids.

[(Un)Inspired]

It has arrived at last. The promised handbook has come.

[eternal]

Eggy I want to thank you for this awesome guide. Druids are my 2nd fav class next to clerics and this guide is just amazing. I don't think you'll find a better one out there.

[shadowseve]

Eggy you're the reason my dm could never challenge my druid and I didn't even fully optimize the way your guide says to. Thanks for answering all my questions and providing critical feedback.
I've saved this guide and will guide others to use it.

[Threadnaught]

Now we're just waiting on Emperor Wins guide to Wizard.

[Larrx]

Awesome guide eggy. It was well worth the wait.

Should there be a mention that exalted companion gives you access to an intelligent flying horse with 100' telepathy (I forget the name) which can take both VoP and mindsight? That always seemed like a very interesting option to me.

[Bronk]

Eh, I don't even have the spell mentioned in the first place, so I dunno that it's worth mentioning in the context of the feat. 9th's are universally in a weird spot, because there's this absolutely ridiculous spell over here, and then everything else is awful because of that spell. Elemental swarm is in a particularly uncomfortable place because of the existence of the siabrie, meanwhile, which casts the spell really well.

I mentioned elemental swarm's relation to Rashemi Elemental Summoning as much as a reminder to me when I access this link in the future as anything else. I think in the guide's example it mentions SNA VI being able to get a Level 11 druid 48d6 cold damage over three rounds (as of now it says 45 though), and having a L17 druid with some preparation time being able to get up to 351d6 cold damage over three rounds is good to remember, at least.

[eggynack]

Should there be a mention that exalted companion gives you access to an intelligent flying horse with 100' telepathy (I forget the name) which can take both VoP and mindsight? That always seemed like a very interesting option to me.
Yeah, I can buy that as a worthwhile addition. Definitely fills some sorta gap that other companions weren't filling, as a long term and efficient scout. Probably going to be, I dunno, a week until I make relatively non-essential additions though. So much druiding.

Edit: "Essential additions" apparently includes random FAQ stuff, cause that section is woefully underpopulated. I'm just in the habit of writing arbitrary stuff about druids, so, yeah, probably going to have something interesting about the asperi up tonight. One thing I don't like about that creature is that it's not all that stealthy, but it's definitely great at finding and pointing out stealthy enemies, even if it can't really sneak about the enemy lair for tactical insight. Seems good as a high level option.

[Darrin]

Stupefyingly cool. It's great to see this finally posted.

Some things to consider adding:

Planar Touchstone -> Catalogues of Enlightenment to pick up the Dragon Below domain power: Augment Summoning without the Spell Focus Feat Tax. Planar Druid substitution levels can be used to get Knowledge (the Planes) as a class skill (temporarily), or you can use the Sandstorm version of Touchstone.

Dragonborn of Bahamut + Wasteland Druid ACF. The main sticking point here is, does serving Bahamut violate a druid's vow to worship nature? Well, Dragonborn does not require you to worship Bahamut, nor does a druid's oath explicitly forbid them from serving a dragon. Or if your druid regards dragons as creatures that are inherently natural, or protectors of nature to begin with then... well, why not? The Wasteland Druid ACF pairs up nicely because it gives us two bonus feats as part of our class features: Sandskimmer and Heat Endurance. They are also feats we don't really *need* or can be replicated via some low-level spells, so we can use the "Mechanics of Rebirth" to lose Sandskimmer instead of our human bonus feat (as per the text, "any feat can be lost, so long as it is not a prerequisite for another feat you have"). We can also trade away Heat Endurance for Dragon Wings (natural flight in the druid's native form) or Dragon Tail (another natural attack). Since feats tend to stay active in our wild shape forms... hey look, a flying rhino with a tail swipe!

Golden Desert Honey (Complete Mage) for standard action summons. Also, Chaos Flask -> half a pound of Golden Desert Honey.

Also, Fairy Dust (Complete Mage) + creeping cold (or any transmutation spell, really). 100 GP for Extend Spell.

When I have more time, I'll have to dig into this and see if I can throw out some additional suggestions.

[Snowbluff]

Eggy, I haven't told you this, but I do plan to print this guide in it's entirety. When someone wants to play a 3.5 druid or asks me why I like 3.5, I'll drop this tome on them. :smalltongue:

[eggynack]

I think I have most of those, except for planar touchstone, which seems worth adding, and the dragonborn+wasteland thing, which probably doesn't. It does seem to work, but it doesn't look like it gets you all that much, as your ultimate benefit is the ability to have dragonborn applied to human efficiently, and that's not of big benefit. So, yeah, next addition is likely to be the planar touchstone thing.

Edit:
Eggy, I haven't told you this, but I do plan to print this guide in it's entirety. When someone wants to play a 3.5 druid or asks me why I like 3.5, I'll drop this tome on them. :smalltongue:
Cool beans. Gotta say, the fact that there's this much cool stuff related to various things is why I like the system too. It's definitely a like tinged with something negative, cause it's ridiculous that you'd need that much research to use a single feat like aberration wild shape efficiently, but that depth is at least as awesome as it is ridiculous.

Double-edit: So. Planar touchstone. Summoning or miscellaneous? This is the stuff that keeps me up at night. Almost wanna put it in miscellaneous just cause I don't have much stuff there, though I may need to check the scale of summoning to make sure that the difference is that big. That I could probably spend another paragraph talking about this ludicrously minute decision (with the next point being the weight of child of winter, and then maybe something about how sparse animal companions are) is a big part of why this thing ended up as massive as it did.

[TheCrowing1432]

Ive always hated how handbooks would just say

"Hey take these feats/spells, they r good" Without any context or reason, with the same thing on the opposite end "Oh dont take these feats/spells/acf's they r bad"


For what its worth, despite the "badness" I rather like the Druidic Avenger/Deadly Hunter ACF's as I find them very flavorful. Even if it does make Druid weaker.


Interestingly enough, Druidic Avenger gives you access to bear warrior.

[Kraken]

This handbook shall be the standard by which other handbooks are measured. Magnificent work.

[eggynack]

Ive always hated how handbooks would just say

"Hey take these feats/spells, they r good" Without any context or reason, with the same thing on the opposite end "Oh dont take these feats/spells/acf's they r bad"

As I noted in the acknowledgements, I was heavily inspired by Shax's Indispensable Haversack on that point. It doesn't consistently have that kinda density, but just the idea that you could have a whole paragraph about a feather token, swan boat, or a whole pile of information on a collar of perpetual attendance, or just generally a bunch of comparisons between a pile of subtly different things, was really interesting to me. On that note, someone really needs to get to work on a cleric spell handbook. The cleric handbook in existence, which may be the only one of its kind, has something like no information on the topic. I've been considering running at least some initial research on the topic, but first, I know very little about the topic, and second, I'm a bit hand booked out. Also, I have been halfway meaning to make that arguing handbook that popped into my head awhile back.

As a side note, does anyone have an opinion on the entry for totemist gestalt? I was a bit rushed on it, because I don't know the system all that well, so while I fit in what looked like highlights, I could plausibly be quite a bit off base, or otherwise missing something really cool.

[Troacctid]

As a side note, does anyone have an opinion on the entry for totemist gestalt? I was a bit rushed on it, because I don't know the system all that well, so while I fit in what looked like highlights, I could plausibly be quite a bit off base, or otherwise missing something really cool.

Totemist synergizes well with Druid, since soulmelds work while wildshaped. However, you really ought to mention how sweet it is that just about every single buff you get from your soulmelds is also applied to your animal companion. It might be the single best gestalt for an animal companion-focused Druid, I think?

Shedu Crown is a notable soulmeld that you missed. The crown bind gives you telepathy, which is useful for letting you communicate while in animal form.

Incidentally, Incarnate is also very good for a Druid. It doesn't have the same volume of natural weapon-based soulmelds, and you don't get the good Reflex saves, but if you're not focused on wrecking faces with claw-claw-bites, then Incarnate melds offer superior utility for a more casting-oriented Druid, and you get more essentia.

Master of Many Forms is a pretty fantastic gestalt option too. So are psionic classes--you don't even need Natural Spell for them. I'd also put Cloistered Cleric above Wizard, personally.

[justiceforall]

Hah I hate druids :) and I'm still loving the guide. Eggy can you get a time machine, go back to 2010 (lets not get too greedy), post this up so that the other handbooks had something to aspire to?


Ive always hated how handbooks would just say

"Hey take these feats/spells, they r good" Without any context or reason, with the same thing on the opposite end "Oh dont take these feats/spells/acf's they r bad"


Testify. Sadly very common on the Internets. If you ever want to lose brain cells that way try reading the FAQs up for a few RPGer/turn based classics like Silent Storm, Xcom Enemy Within, or even worse, Dawn of War 2.

[eggynack]

Totemist synergizes well with Druid, since soulmelds work while wildshaped. However, you really ought to mention how sweet it is that just about every single buff you get from your soulmelds is also applied to your animal companion. It might be the single best gestalt for an animal companion-focused Druid, I think?

Shedu Crown is a notable soulmeld that you missed. The crown bind gives you telepathy, which is useful for letting you communicate while in animal form.

Incidentally, Incarnate is also very good for a Druid. It doesn't have the same volume of natural weapon-based soulmelds, and you don't get the good Reflex saves, but if you're not focused on wrecking faces with claw-claw-bites, then Incarnate melds offer superior utility for a more casting-oriented Druid, and you get more essentia.
Thanks. That should improve the incarnum thing a bunch, though it's probably going to be a bit until I can stick incarnate in there. Seems like a necessary addition, given that I was mostly focused on the utility end of the totemist anyway.


Master of Many Forms is a pretty fantastic gestalt option too. So are psionic classes--you don't even need Natural Spell for them. I'd also put Cloistered Cleric above Wizard, personally.
Master of many forms is quite good, though I was mostly sticking with the base class stuff. For psionic classes, I was mostly just using psion as a stand-in, because I think variance beyond that is probably outside of the scope of what is synergizing with druid. And, on the cloistered cleric versus wizard comparison, I think that cloistered cleric definitely has more synergy, what with the same base stat and better chassis and abilities, but the wizard just seems like it does the job better. Druids are quite good at filling the cleric gaps without taking actual levels in cleric, but the same cannot necessarily be said for wizard. I guess you could emphasize the passive side of both druid and cleric, using wild shape from the first and DMM from the second, but it doesn't feel like you're in a better place there than you are just augmenting with wizard insanity.

[Troacctid]

Really, you've only scratched the surface of gestalt. There are so many good options, even if you only look at base classes.


Archivist: If you get proper scroll access, you can cast just about whatever spells you want, and your bonus spells are Wisdom-based, so you have stat synergy.
Ardent: The upside of being Wisdom-based is probably outweighed by the more restricted power access compared to a Psion, but it's still a pretty solid option. At level 10 you get to abuse metapsionics like nobody's business (using the Dominant Ideal variant), which can get very silly. Creation, Freedom, Knowledge, and Time are some of the best mantles.
Artificer: Craft whatever items you want, because you're awesome like that. Great passive side for any caster.
Bard: Great skill-monkey class with a lot of out-of-combat utility. You can get into Sublime Chord, too. Divine Bard is a good option to reduce Charisma dependence.
Beguiler: Adds a lot of sneaky and manipulative abilities. Good mix of casting and skills, and doesn't put pressure on your actions in combat.
Binder: Lots of utility. Universally good passive side for just about any gestalt. All your abilities work in animal form.
Cloistered Cleric: Wisdom synergy. Skill points. Domains. Effectively double your spell slots. Always a strong choice. Note that it's just strictly better than the standard Cleric, since you get your BAB and hit die back from the Druid side and you can't wear heavy armor anyway.
Ninja: Monks and Swordsages aren't the only ones who get Wis to AC. Ninjas have that going for them, plus sudden strike and skillmonkey cred.
Psion: Full casting, and has enough action economy abuse and long-duration buffs that it can be passive too.
Psychic Warrior: Wisdom synergy, and fits just fine into a natural weapon strategy.
Rogue: Classic skillmonkey. The most skill points, and lots of class skills. Doesn't pressure your actions in combat. You can take sneak attack or bonus feats, hard to go wrong either way. Not as good as Factotum if you have high Int, but not everyone has high Int.
Scout: Solid choice for skills. Good fit from a thematic perspective too. Okay, some of the class skills are redundant, but you have easy access to pounce, which works pretty well with skirmish.
Warblade: Tends to turn Druid into the passive side, but still very nice if you're looking to brawl in melee.
Warlock: Lots of great passive buffs and at-will utility. (Don't get sucked into eldritch blast, it's basically just a reserve feat. Unless Dragon Magazine is in play, in which case Eldritch Claws works nicely with wild shape.)

[eggynack]

Probably true. I never really built it up beyond its role as a side thing where I put the odd gestalt idea. I'll probably expand it out over some period of time, tossing a thing into it every so often until it is all consuming. Definitely on my list of things to do, next to organizing dragons along the same lines that I did for the lung dragons, adding fancy sections for magic items, maybe revising control winds to reflect how complex it is, thinking more about possible FAQ things, and putting in various suggested additions that've been tossed out. The FAQ thing could probably use some suggesting too, come to think of it, because the entire basis is just stuff that I've argued about in various threads.

[Endarire]

This is just... incredible. Dear WotC: Are you listening? We have someone who could be your new manager!

I would like to have more SLAs mentioned for creatures in the Planar Shepherd section. (See this Planar Shepherd handbook (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1081076) for examples.)

Gestalting Druid? Swordsage2 is a wonderful dip for the WIS bonus to AC while armored. Going more Swordsage should help as well.

For Greenbound summons, please at least link my Greenbound Creature Stats Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8938.0).

[Hiro Quester]

Just a quick suggestion to a great guide that has made my DM request that i tone my Druid down a bit (buff myself and my AC a bit less) to make encounters more balanced for other players.

In the wildshape section you list at 12th level the plant forms. But legendary eagle is buried in the middle of that list.

Would it be useful to separate out the plant forms from non-plant forms, so legendary eagle doesn't get hidden like that?

And I think I have said this before, for those playing in a book-limited game (like me) are there any Core plant forms worth mentioning?

[Darrin]

This is an excerpt for an armor handbook I've been working on and off for a bit. You don't have to include it, but I thought I'd throw it down here, as it's druid-related.

Druid-Friendly Armor

Bark (A&EG p. 14)
Price: 5 GP
If your druid is such a hardcore animal-lover that he objects to skinning animals, then this may be a reasonable alternative to leather... although there may be a few trees that want to have a word with you about this whole "skinning" thing.

Blue Ice (Frostburn p. 80)
Price: +750/3000/7000 GP
Much like darkleaf, this material drops the weight category, increases Max Dex by 1, and reduces ACP by 2 (add masterwork to reduce ACP by 3). However, if the wearer doesn't have some kind of cold resistance/immunity, he takes a -1 penalty on Ref saves and Init checks (add a dragoncraft buckler/shield for cold resistance 5). Sentira is slightly better (increases Max Dex by 2), but blue ice has more "made out of natural materials" flavor.

Bluewood (Unapproachable East p. 58)
Price: +300/600/1200 GP
Crafted by the Volodni (plant people in Faerun), bluewood has the same characteristics as any masterwork armor made out of metal, except it weighs half as much. Basically the same material as darkwood, but can also be used to make armor.

Bondleaf Wrap (A&EG p. 14)
Price: 1000 GP
For those druids who want to get so close to nature, they want their armor bonded to their nether-regions. While this is a very interesting idea, in practice wearing this leaf isn't too terribly different from being naked. Since it takes 24 hours to bond, even mud is easier to apply. If you want an armor bonus without a Max Dex limit, consider the gnome twistcloth.

Bone/Wood (A&EG p. 14)
Price: 20 GP (bone), 15 GP (wood)
These two materials are almost identical, except wood is 5 GP cheaper and 5 lbs lighter. Both are somewhat reasonable choices for a 1st level druid looking for something better than leather, but leather scale (same book) has the same armor bonus with a better Max Dex and ACP. If your Dex bonus is +1 or lower, dhenuka hide is better.

Bronzewood (Eberron Campaign Setting p. 126)
Price: 4000 GP (medium), 9000 GP (heavy)
This is another lighter/stronger wood that can replace metal. Bronzewood weighs 10% less than a similar metal item. The description doesn't mention that it's masterwork, so that can be added to reduce ACP by 1. The only other notable feature is ACP has no effect on Hide checks made in woodland environments. Similar to dragonhide, only certain armors can be made out of bronzewood: breastplate, banded mail, splint mail, half-plate, and full plate. For the same price, though, you can get sentira with all the properties of mithral.

Chameleon Leather (Serpent Kingdoms p. 148)
Price: 360 GP
Made out of color-changing snakeskin, this armor has the same stats as masterwork leather, but provides a +2 circumstance bonus on Hide checks. Circumstance bonuses can be pretty hard to come by, but unless you're a sneaky druid (tree ninja?) trying to max out your Hide check, you'll probably want something better than a +2 armor bonus. Shadow silk hide offers a +2 bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks when in shadowy or dark conditions, or a "Camouflage" pattern (FR Underdark p. 66) can be added to any armor for a +2 circumstance Hide bonus in a particular terrain.

Chitin (A&EG p. 19)
Price: +10000 GP (heavy), +2000 (shield)
There are several varieties of chitin armor that have appeared in a multitude of sourcebooks, and they all have different properties. The AE&G version only offers a 50% weight reduction, and apparently can only be used with heavy armor (although breastplate is mentioned in the text, no price is given for medium armor). This version is too expensive for what it does (even mithral is cheaper), so don't bother with this one.

Chitin (Races of Eberron, Secrets of Xen'drik p. 136)
Price: 20 GP
Ok, so now it's apparently light armor... and only slightly better than leather. If you need a higher Max Dex, Spidersilk or Nightscale (FR Underdark p. 66) are probably a better deal.

Chitin Armor (Races of Faerun p. 157, Stormwrack p. 106)
Price: 75 GP
Now it's medium armor. It has stats similar to scale mail, so it's a little better than hide armor (add masterwork to drop the ACP down to -3), but isn't as good as the various breastplate options. This version was updated in Stormwrack, but the stats are the same as in Races of Faerun.

Chitin (Races of the Dragon p. 121)
Price: Masterwork x2
Comparatively similar to dragonhide (same cost) and now covers both medium and heavy armor, but like dragonhide only for certain types: breastplate, half-plate, full plate, and shields. One notable advantage over dragonhide is it increases Max Dex by +1. Of all the variations on "chitin" armor, this version usually has the best stats.

Chitine Web (FR Underdark p. 66)
Price: 75 GP
You have to find a chitine to weave this for you, and it starts to decay after 3 months if you don't regularly pay a chitine to repair it. Leather scale has roughly the same stats but is only 35 GP. For only 10 GP more, sharkskin has almost the same stats. If you need a higher Max Dex and can afford to pay more, consider masterwork spidersilk.

Coral (AE&G p. 15)
Price: 225 GP
Roughly equivalent to splint or banded mail, and a cheaper alternative to stone plate (Races of Stone). Not a bad deal for the price if you're looking for some heavy armor but can't quite afford dragonhide/darkleaf/sentira full plate. Requires Heavy Armor Proficiency.

Cord (Stormwrack p. 106)
Price: 15 GP
First printed in A&EG as a slightly more expensive alternative to bark, but later updated in Stormwrack, where it’s ASF increased to 15%. Other than that, the rest of the stats are the same as in A&EG.

Darkleaf (A&EG p. 19, Eberron Campaign Setting p. 120)
Price: +750/2250/3000 GP
Properties are very similar to mithral, but much more druid-friendly. Reduces the weight category, increases Max Dex by 1, and reduces ACP by 2. You can also combine this with masterwork quality to reduce ACP further by 1. Sentira has slightly better stats (increases Max Dex by 2), but darkleaf definitely has more "I am made out of trees!" flavor (and isn't tied to a specific campaign world).

Dendritic Crystal (A&EG p. 15, Races of Faerun p. 157)
Price: 2000 GP
This is definitely one of the weirder options, and very similar to heavy plate (Races of Stone p. 155), except it's a lot lighter (60 lbs instead of 100 lbs). I'm not entirely sure if it's druid-safe but it doesn't say anything about being metal. It grows by itself... that's nature-friendly, right? Based on the Earthskin armor (RoF p. 171), it looks like you can add masterwork for the usual cost. Requires Heavy Armor Proficiency.

Dhenuka Hide (Oriental Adventures p. 75)
Price: 30 GP
Rhino hide armor, with a better armor bonus than normal hide armor (comparable to scale mail), but Max Dex and ACP are much worse. At only 30 GP, though, a great bargain for a 1st level druid looking for something better than normal hide.

Dragonhide (PHB)
Price: Masterwork x2
This is one of the cheaper non-metallic options, so an excellent choice for low-level druids. Inside Core/SRD only, it will probably be your best option. Only a few medium/heavy armors can be replaced with dragonhide: hide, breastplate, banded mail, half-plate, and full plate. However, other than masterwork reducing ACP by 1, there isn't much mechanical benefit. Darkleaf (similar to mithral, but cheaper) and sentira (Secrets of Sarlona, same properties as mithral) are going to have much better Max Dex and ACPs and can be applied to more types of armor. However, it can be upgraded as a Dragoncraft item (see below).

Dragoncraft (Draconomicon p. 117)
Price: +3000/6000/11000 GP
Adding the dragoncraft quality to dragonhide armor drops the weight category, reduces ACP by 2, and adds a nonmagical energy resistance 5, energy type based on the dragon's color (if you're looking for sonic or force resistance, it doesn't specifically mention it but doesn't forbid it). Darkleaf and sentira are cheaper and will get you better Max Dex/ACP, but... hmmm, a buckler or shield with force resistance 5, that's pretty tempting (never worry about magic missile again). Like dragonhide, it's only available on certain armors, but they are *not* the same options as dragonhide: breastplate and banded are not available, but scale mail is. Huh, I can't tell if that's a mistake by the designer or intentional. Hide, half-plate, and full plate are the other three armors available. The price for a shield isn't mentioned, either. I assume it's the same as light armor (+3000 GP). If you're looking for energy resistance (particularly force), then you might consider a dragoncraft buckler or light shield. For electricity and sonic resistance 5, take a look at Siege Beetle Chitin (MMV p. 153). Otherwise, stick with darkleaf or sentira.

Dreamhide (Secrets of Xen'drik p. 136)
Price: 700 GP
Made from the skin of dream serpents, dreamhide is a good replacement for a chain shirt. It's a little cheaper than a darkleaf chain shirt, but for the same price you can buy a dragonhide breastplate with a better armor bonus.

Duskwood Breastplate (Magic of Faerun p. 178)
Price: 3200 GP
Another one of those "Yeah, it's darkwood, just called something different" materials. Normally darkwood can't be used to create armor, but there's an exception for duskwood: it can be made into a breastplate with the following stats: masterwork light armor, AB +5, MDB +4, ACP -2, ASF 20%, Speed 30/20, weight 15 lbs. However, there are cheaper materials (darkleaf) with better stats.

Elukian Clay (A&EG p. 19)
Price: +1000/2000/4000 GP
Sculpted from stone that seeps out of the Elemental Plane of Water. This increases the ACP by 1, but you can ignore ACP on Swim checks. I have no idea why you'd pay so much for this kind of material.

Feather Cloak (Sandstorm p. 99)
Price: 1000 GP
This armor has the same stats as leather, but negates a penalty on heatstroke checks in hot environments. You're better off buying something cheaper with a better armor bonus and spend the money you save on scrolls of endure elements or save up for an Enduring Amulet (1500 GP, MIC p. 97, continuous endure elements and negate up to 20 cold/fire damage as an immediate action). Leather scale, sharkskin, dreamhide, spidersilk, or a darkleaf chain shirt all have a better armor bonus and the same or better Max Dex bonus.

Glassteel (Champions of Valor p. 65)
Price: +2000/6000/12000 GP
This glasslike material is harder than iron but completely transparent. However, I'm not entirely sure it's nonmetallic... some people seem to think so, but I couldn't find a definitive ruling either way. The description says it's made with an "alchemical process requiring an extensive knowledge of metallurgy and glassblowing." While the term metallurgy could imply smelting or alloying of metals, it could also refer to adding metal and other chemical powders to glass to change its color or physical properties. Cobalt glass, for example, gets its color from a metal additive, but is still considered glass. On the other hand, even if you conclude that glassteel isn't metal, it sounds like the process for creating it involves a much higher level of technology beyond the more druid-friendly concept of "let's wrap dead animal skins and pieces of wood around my body". The properties and cost of glassteel vary quite a bit depending on which sourcebook it appears in. The last official 3.5 update was in Champions of Valor, which says the properties are almost identical to mithral, except it has the hardness and HP of adamantine. So if you want to use this material, check with your DM first. Fortunately, we have a wide variety of cheaper materials that work just as well, such as darkleaf and sentira.

Gnome Twistcloth (Races of Stone p. 159)
Price: 150 GP
Although only slightly better than a loincloth or a birthday suit, this exotic armor has a couple features that may be of interest to certain builds. The ACP is zero, so while you don't *need* Exotic Armor Proficiency to use this without penalty, if you do take the feat, the twistcloth's armor bonus applies to touch attacks (similar to a deflection bonus). The other advantage is it has no Max Dex limit, so if you've got an insanely high Dex bonus and still want some kind of armor bonus, then the twistcloth might be worth considering.

Leafweave (Races of the Wild p. 168)
Price: 745 GP (padded), 750 GP (leather), 765 GP (studded leather), 755 GP (hide)
The druid-friendly alternative to leather, leafweave increases Max Dex by 1 and reduces ACP by 2 (add masterwork to reduce ACP by 3). However, the higher price puts this well out of the range of 1st level druids, and there are much cheaper alternatives that offer the same or better protection: leather scale, sharkskin, dreamhide, thunderhide, or dhenuka hide.

Leather Scale (A&EG p. 16)
Price: 35 GP
If you're looking for something cheap with the same armor bonus as studded leather, but can't quite afford leafweave studded leather yet, this is a pretty good deal for the price. For 1st level druids, dhenuka hide (Oriental Adventures p. 76) costs 5 GP less and has a better armor bonus (equivalent to a chain shirt), but if you have a Dex bonus higher than +1, leather scale is a better choice.

Living Coral (Stormwrack p. 106)
Price: 16000 GP
This appears to be a reworking of the Moon Ivy armor from A&EG, only now it's made out of living coral instead of ivy, and some attempt was made to clarify some of the more confusing issues with Moon Ivy... although additional confusing issues appear to have been added. Instead of a body suit, living coral grows from a "medallion" (no mention is made if this item still occupies the body slot or the necklace slot). An attempt was made to clarify the dying/regrowth process: the coral dies at sundown and regrows at sunrise, and it says the process takes two hours but doesn't specify if this is for dying or regrowing the coral. There's also a new drawback, apparently the coral also dies if it's in dark conditions, but it isn't clear what this means: dark as in total darkness, or do shadowy conditions (as from a darkness spell) also count? How long does it have to be dark, do you get to keep the +3 armor bonus for 2 hours or does it die off gradually/instantly? It can still be upgraded by spending 500 GP, but the only option now is "Stinging Polyps", which can sting your opponent in a grapple for a chance to paralyze them for 1d4 rounds (Fort save DC 14). I think like the sound of "Explosive Pods" a lot better... I'm not sure I want to put anything on my body called "Stinging Polyps", which sounds a lot like something you need to get removed after a colonoscopy. Stats-wise, living coral is more flexible than the non-living version in A&EG: Max Dex increased by 2, ACP reduced by 3, and ASF reduced by 10%. This puts it about equivalent with darkleaf/sentira banded mail, which is cheaper and still protects you when it's dark.

Mammoth Leather (Races of Stone p. 157)
Price: 45 GP
If this weren't exotic (requiring the Exotic Armor Proficiency feat), this would be a fabulous pick for a 1st level druid: same armor bonus and Max Dex as a chain shirt, lighter weight category than normal hide, and a little "yeah, I killed and skinned a mammoth, punk" flavor. However, better options with higher armor bonuses should be available later, so it's not worth wasting a feat on.

Moon Ivy (A&EG p. 16)
Price: 16000 GP
Another really strange one... like dendritic crystal, this one "grows" around your body overnight. But it dies "at the end of every day", so it apparently doesn't provide any armor bonus during the night, and doesn't specifically state how long it takes to regrow. Do you get the entire +3 armor bonus at sunrise? Or does the armor bonus increase by +1 every 2-3 hours? It's not clear. Moon ivy provides the same armor bonus as a chain shirt, but whoa boy, you'll need one heck of a "Save the Rainforest!" fund to afford this stuff. However, for another 500 GP, how many armors have an upgrade feature called "Explosive Spores"? Grow up to 10 pods, and whenever you get hit by a bludgeoning attack, the adjacent square gets hit with a Fort save DC 14 for 1d6 rounds of nausea. The poison ivy upgrade looks like a great feature for grappler/constrictor builds (Fort save DC 14, 1d3 Con damage). The Pheremones upgrade is also really solid: +3 untyped bonus on any Charisma check (even UMD!), and it goes up to a +6 bonus if the target creature has scent (which almost every animal does), so that's +6 on all your Handle Animal and Wild Empathy rolls.

Mud (Races of Faerun p. 158)
Price: 0 GP
For important state dinners and impressing nobility. Seriously, don't. If you're that desperate, hiding or fleeing in pathetic shame is also free.

Nightscale (FR Underdark p. 66)
Price: 1000 GP
Same armor bonus as leather but with a Max Dex bonus on steroids. The combination of armor/dex bonus is one of the best in the game: +12 total, three points better than full plate and two points better than mechanus gear. The description describes this armor as exotic, meaning you would have to take Exotic Armor Proficiency to avoid any penalties, but since the ACP is already zero, you can wear this armor without the feat and still take no penalties. This is one of the better options for high Dex druids/wildshape forms.

Riverine (Stormwrack p. 128)
Price: +9000/16000/25000 GP
Ok, so this material is water sandwiched between two walls of force... interesting idea, so let's make some armor out of all these overlapping plates of walls of force... why exactly do we need the water at this point? Anyway, definitely nonmetallic, and the big selling point is half of the armor bonus becomes a deflection bonus (rounded down), which is added to touch AC. The description doesn't mention it, but this also effectively gives riverine armor the Ghost Touch enhancement (force effects are always solid to incorporeal creatures). Other than the deflection bonus and the improved ACP from masterwork quality, the mechanical properties of riverine are the same as any other mundane material. However, it is horrendously expensive, so if you really need that deflection bonus, consider a riverine shield or buckler (+4000 GP) rather than armor.

Scorpion Breastplate (Races of Eberron p. 171, Secrets of Xen'drik p. 136)
Price: 300 GP
Another member of the "chitin" armor family, this breastplate is comparable to scale mail, if not a little better. Dreamhide and a darkleaf chain shirt have the same armor bonus and better stats, but the scorpion breastplate is cheaper.

Siege Beetle Chitin (MMV p. 153)
Price: 2000 GP
Probably the most obscure member of the chitin family, tucked away in MMV. It offers about the same protection as scale male (+4 armor bonus), but has slightly better Max Dex, better ACP, weighs only 20 lbs, and is already considered masterwork. The description explicitly says it's druid-friendly. But the best feature is it provides non-magical resistance to electricity 5 and resistance to sonic 5, which is a bit of a bargain for only 2000 GP.

Serpentscale Mail (Serpent Kingdoms p. 148)
Price: 800 GP
Another contender in the "is it as good as a breastplate?" category, and actually one of the better options (same ACP as a masterwork breastplate, but Max Dex is 1 higher). Also, great flavor for those herpetologists/ophidiophiles out there. Chitin breastplate (Races of the Dragon version) has the same stats but only costs 700 GP. A dragonhide breastplate also costs 700 GP, but Max Dex isn't quite as good.

Sentira (Secrets of Sarlona p. 135)
Price: +1000/4000/9000 GP
Properties are identical to mithral. The big question is it non-metallic, and thus okey-dokey for druids to wear without breaking their oath? The description says it's grown from powdered crystal and has an "organic" appearance, "much like horn or shell", and is ideal for making emotional armor (Calming and Dreadful are not worth it... but Vengeful could be good for melee-friendly druids), but doesn't say anything about being metallic. My guess is organic = treehugger-friendly. The only real difference with masterwork darkleaf (other than higher cost) is sentira increases Max Dex by 2 instead of 1. Of all the nonmetallic special materials, this is the best.

Shadow Silk (Tome of Magic p. 155)
Price: 1500 GP (padded), 1750 (leather), 2500 (hide)
I'm not sure what kind of druid would be comfortable wearing something made out of material from the plane of shadow... but hey, at least it's not metal. Shadow silk increases Max Dex by 2, reduces ACP by 2, and reduces weight by 75%. When in shadowy or dark conditions, it grants a +2 untyped bonus to Hide and Move Silenty checks, and also repairs itself (1 HP/round). Compared to leafweave, shadow silk will have a better Max Dex bonus but masterwork leafweave will have a better ACP. Leather scale, leafweave studded leather, sharkskin, dreamhide, or spidersilk offer better protection for a cheaper price.

Shapesand (Sandstorm p. 102)
Price: 100 GP per 12 lbs
Make a DC 16 Wisdom check and you can reshape this psychoreactive sand into any nonmagical item you can imagine and it "serves as a normal item of the same sort". This allows us to reshape it into any kind of mundane armor, including exotic or rare armors such as heavy plate (9 jugs = 900 GP) or mechanus gear (7 jugs = 700 GP). It won't copy the properties of masterwork items or special materials (adamantine/mithral/sentira/etc. aren't "normal items"), but the description is exceedingly vague about what properties shapesand can duplicate (acid? explosives? poison?). The shapesand retains its shape as long as you're within 100' of it, and if you need to reshape it to fit a new form (wildshape, for example), a new suit of armor or barding is just a Wisdom check away. There is a risk someone else might recognize you're using shapesand as armor and attempt to take control of it, but they have to make an opposed Wisdom check against you (good thing druids don't tend to dump Wisdom, eh?).

Sharkskin (Races of Faerun p. 158, Stormwrack p. 106)
Price: 85 GP
This is a good substitute for studded leather, comparable to leather scale but with a better ACP (which you can bring down to zero by making it masterwork). On top of that, it has built-in shark teeth that work as armor spikes *and* give a +6 circumstance bonus on Escape Artist attempts to get out of an entangle effect (even better than Netcutter Spikes from Races of the Wild). Sharkskin was updated in Stormwrack, and while the stats are the same, the +6 circumstance bonus on Escape artist checks was changed to "when the wearer is bound with rope or similar easily cut bindings". While this should still apply to nets, check if your DM will allow it to still apply to other entangle effects.

Shell (A&EG p. 15, Stormwrack p. 106)
Price: 25 GP
This medium armor is the same price as studded leather, but bone/wood is a little cheaper, has about the same stats, and is in a lighter weight category. For a little more gold, leather scale and sharkskin have better stats, and are still in a lighter weight category.

Silk Swathes (Sandstorm p. 99)
Price: 400 GP
Like the feather cloak, these silk swathes negate the -4 penalty when checking for heatstroke in a hot environment, but there are better ways to avoid heatstroke. If you're looking for light armor with a high Max Dex bonus, try gnome twistcloth, nightscale, or spidersilk.

Skin of Ectoplasmic Armor (Magic Item Compendium p. 170)
Price: 6000 GP
If you didn't think the Bondleaf Wrap was strange enough, you can envelope your body in ectoplasm... creepy, but not metal. This skin has the same armor bonus as full plate, but is only considered light armor, can be put on or removed with just a standard action, and has better stats: AB: +8 MDB: +2 ACP: -6 ASF: 25% SPD: 30 WT: 2#. Unfortunately, the description doesn't mention if it's considered masterwork or can be enchanted further. Despite that, compared to an equivalent suit of full plate, this is a great bargain.

Spidersilk (FR Underdark p. 66)
Price: 750 GP
This is one of the best replacements for studded leather, particularly for high-Dex druids. It's listed as an exotic armor, which would require taking the Exotic Armor Proficiency feat to avoid non-proficiency penalties, but since it's not described as masterwork, you can spend 150 GP to add the masterwork quality and reduce the ACP to zero, at which point you don't take any penalties for non-proficiency.

Stonemail (FR Underdark p. 67)
Price: 180 GP
Roughly equivalent to chainmail, but made out of stone and weighs 5 lbs less than chainmail... huh. While this is actually pretty decent armor considering it's made out of *rocks*, serpentscale and dragonhide/chitin breastplates have slightly better stats, and don't require Heavy Armor Proficiency.

Stone Plate (Races of Stone p. 158)
Price: 750 GP
Still lighter than chainmail... huh. Ok, well, this is roughly equivalent to banded mail, but at this price for another 50 GP you can get dragonhide banded mail with an ACP of only -5. If you're pinching pennies, you can get the same stats with Coral armor for about 1/3rd the price (225 GP). Requires Heavy Armor Proficiency.

Stone, Dwarven (A&EG p. 17)
Price: 1750 GP
Now this is more like it... heavy plate, made out of stone. Actually, this has a better ACP (and you can bring it down by another point by adding masterwork) and weighs less than heavy plate. Cheaper, too. Huh. If you're looking for something in the neighborhood of full plate or better, can't afford darkleaf yet, and don't want any of that namby-pamby sentira stuff, then this is a pretty solid choice. Requires Heavy Armor Proficiency.

Tentacled Hide (FR Underdark p. 67)
Exotic hide armor for hentai fetishists. +2 untyped bonus on Strength checks to trip your opponents, but based on the description, I'm having a hard time imagining how they don't trip the owner. It also requires the Exotic Armor Proficiency, which just isn't worth it for a +2 bonus on trip checks.

Thaalud Stone Armor (Anauroch: The Empire of Shade p. 108)
The best heavy armor in the game (even better than Mechanus Gear), tucked away in an obscure sidebar in a lackluster campaign-specific module. It's made out of a rare variety of stone that is very dense and resistant to chips and fractures, which presumably prevents making it out of some other exotic special material, such as mithral. There's one other material detail that must be dealt with before it can be considered completely druid-friendly... the description says this armor is held together by metal rivets, so you'll need to ask your DM if these can be replaced with darkwood/ironwood/bronzewood equivalents.

Thunderhide (Serpent Kingdoms p. 148)
Price: 25 GP
Love the name, dinosaur hide is awesomesauce, but functionally not as good as leather scale or sharkskin armor. Still, not bad for the price and a great 1st-level pick for a druid with a Dex bonus in the +2 to +5 range.

Vine (Secrets of Xen'drik p. 136)
Price: 80 GP
You can't "go green" much more than this (ok, well, Moss Ivy may beg to differ). It has roughly the same stats as leather and offers a +2 circumstance bonus to Hide checks in a jungle environment, but if you don't water it, it dies and the circumstance bonus goes away... which is kinda annoying, but probably not much of a concern for somebody with create water as a cantrip. If you really want the Hide bonus, try Chameleon Leather (it doesn't need to be watered), or you can buy a much better armor and add a "Camouflage" pattern (FR Underdark p. 66) for +300 GP.

War Chitin (Secrets of Xen'drik p. 136)
Price: 1500 GP
A heavier upgrade to the Scorpion Breastplate. Same price and same armor bonus as dragonhide half-plate or chitin half-plate (Races of the Dragon version), but has a better Max Dex bonus and ACP. Masterwork isn't mentioned in the description, so you can also add that to reduce ACP by 1. This is the best option if you're looking for something better than coral or stone plate but can't quite afford dwarven stone or heavier darkleaf/sentira plate armor. Requires Heavy Armor Proficiency.

Wicker (A&EG p. 17)
Price: 1 GP
Hey, we have a competitor for mud... the description calls it a "poor soldier's last resort", but hiding or fleeing in pathetic shame is even cheaper. On the plus side, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on Hide checks while inside a Pier One Imports store.

Wildwood (Races of the Wild p. 169)
Price: Masterwork x2
Why would you reduce your armor bonus by 1 when there are so many other non-metal materials that don't reduce your armor bonus? Dragonhide, darkleaf, and sentira are all better options than this. Wildwood = Fail.

Shields and Other Additions

Dastana (A&EG p. 15, Oriental Adventures p. 75):
These large metal bracers are worn over the upper arms and can be added to certain types of light armor: padded, leather, or chain shirt. They provide an additional armor bonus that *stacks* with your existing armor and shield bonus. Dastanas are usually paired up with a chahar-aina (mentioned next) on top of a chain shirt to get a +6 armor bonus while only wearing light armor (and you can still add a shield bonus on top of that). Check with your DM to see if these items are available and how he thinks they should work. Some DMs think dastanas should occupy the bracers slot, while others may ban dastanas/chahar-ainas outright. Pricing dastanas made out of special materials can be a little tricky, since it's not clear if dastanas are considered shields (as they are listed on the tables in OA and A&EG) or light armor (they require light armor proficiency, not shield proficiency). Since dastanas are worn over a chain shirt that already includes an undercoat, steel cap, and other armor-related accoutrements, I'm going to assume that dastanas count as a shield for pricing purposes. Here are a couple non-metallic options for dastanas:

Bluewood Dastana (Unapproachable East p. 83)
AB: +1 MDB: -- ACP: 0 ASF: 5% SPD: -- WT: 2.5#
Price: 325 GP

Sentira Dastana (Secrets of Sarlona p. 136)
AB: +1 MDB: -- ACP: 0 ASF: 0% SPD: -- WT: 2.5#
Price: 1025 GP

Chahar-Aina (Oriental Adventures p. 75)
Like the dastana, this "four mirror armor" (actually more of an oriental version of a breastplate) can be worn over certain types of light armor to provide an additional armor bonus that stacks with your existing armor and shield bonus. It can be worn over padded, leather, or a chain shirt, but requires medium armor proficiency rather than light. This isn't a problem for a druid, but the ACP -1 is easy enough to get rid of by making it masterwork. Again, some DMs don't like this and may not allow chahar-ainas, particularly if they don't have any Oriental/Eastern-Asian-style cultures in their campaign worlds. The chahar-aina may be harder to clear with the DM, since it only appears in Oriental Adventures, while the dastana is also in the somewhat culturally-neutral Arms & Equipment Guide. Like the dastana, pricing for special materials can be tricky (they are listed as shields on the table, but are worn on the body and require medium armor proficiency). Since breastplate armor normally includes an undercoat, greaves, helmet, etc., and a chahar-aina is worn over a chain shirt that would already include a similar undercoat and other armor-related accoutrements, I'm going to assume that a chahar-aina counts as a shield for pricing purposes. The non-metallic options for chahar-ainas are the same as for dastanas:

Bluewood Dastana (Unapproachable East p. 83)
AB: +1 MDB: -- ACP: 0 ASF: 5% SPD: -- WT: 5#
Price: 375 GP

Sentira Dastana (Secrets of Sarlona p. 136)
AB: +1 MDB: -- ACP: 0 ASF: 0% SPD: -- WT: 5#
Price: 1075 GP

Extreme Shield (Races of Stone p. 157)
Exotic armor/shields are almost never worth blowing a feat on, but if we use the right combination of material/template, we can get the ACP down to zero, at which point there is no penalty for non-proficiency. The ACP on an extreme shield is -4, so we have to use sentira (or glassteel) with the Hellforged template (DMGII p. 277). How exactly a druid would find a Chosen, Inspired, or kalashtar that is also a native of the Nine Hells, I have no idea... but I suppose a kalashtar with a fiendish/half-fiendish template might be possible. The stats for such a shield would be:

Hellforged Sentira Extreme Shield
AB: +3 MDB: -- ACP: 0 ASF: 10% SPD: -- WT: 12.5#
Price: 2030 GP

Grafts

While some druids may object to grafts as unnatural, there are several elemental/plant/nature-related grafts that might be considered more druid-friendly. In any case, they're not metal, so they don't break your druid oath. Grafts have several advantages to armor: no Max Dex or Armor Check Penalties, can't be stolen/sundered, and aren't considered magic items, so they can't be dispelled and continue to work inside an AMF. There are a couple disadvantages: you have to find someone with the proper feat to create one for you, find a creature to donate the parts, and there's always a sacrifice of some sort (usually a HP reduction) that has to be paid in addition to the GP cost.

Complicating things somewhat are two different versions of the graft rules. The earlier grafts introduced in the Fiend Folio, Libris Mortis, and Lords of Madness can be combined with different types: beholder, fiendish, illithid, silthilar, and undead grafts can be added to the same creature, and there is no maximum limit to the number of grafts. However, Races of the Dragon and Magic of Eberron introduced several new types of grafts, and added some new rules: you cannot combine multiple types of grafts on the same creature, and the maximum number of grafts you can have is five. However, some people argue that the new rules apply *only* to the grafts introduced in Races of the Dragon and Magic of Eberron, and you can stack those on top of the older grafts (beholder, fiendish, illithid, silthilar, and undead). So... if you want to mix-and-match, check with your DM.

Bone Plating [Deathless] (Magic of Eberron p. 128)
Price: 9000 GP, -4 HP
Improves your natural armor bonus by +1, and grants cold resistance 5. Pairs up nicely with Blue Ice armor/shield.

Stony Plating [Elemental, Earth] (Magic of Eberron p. 133)
Price: 2800 GP, -4 HP
Improves natural armor bonus by +1, and... that's it.

Treebark Carapace [Plant] (Magic of Eberron p. 136)
Price: 3200 GP, -4 HP
Improves your natural armor bonus by +1, and gives a +4 bonus on saves against polymorph effects.

[eggynack]

I would like to have more SLAs mentioned for creatures in the Planar Shepherd section. (See this Planar Shepherd handbook (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1081076) for examples.)
That stuff is all up to Reshy, at least right now. I'd considered doing a butt load of editing and reconfiguring, but in the end I was unable to justify doing all of that and holding up the handbook in the process. So, I may at some point come back to it with some big revisions, but that's way down the line.


For Greenbound summons, please at least link my Greenbound Creature Stats Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8938.0).
Maybe. Not sure how necessary it is, and that majig still really wants a completed list, as well as my noted note that rashemi doesn't necessarily do that.


In the wildshape section you list at 12th level the plant forms. But legendary eagle is buried in the middle of that list.y

Would it be useful to separate out the plant forms from non-plant forms, so legendary eagle doesn't get hidden like that?
As is, those labels mostly indicate what's changing at a given level, rather than what every form in that section must be. The plant aspect is strictly a parenthetical thing.

And I think I have said this before, for those playing in a book-limited game (like me) are there any Core plant forms worth mentioning?
You have said, and I am still inclined to think that there aren't. Or, there are, but you need enhance wild shape to make them worth anything. There are only seven core plant forms, so there's not all that much room for good stuff. You have the assassin vine, which is mostly a vehicle for enhance stuff, the phantom fungus, which is disappointingly absent of anything valuable, the shambling mound, which is just kinda mediocre without that weird immunity to electricity, the shrieker and purple fungus, which are just total do nothings, and then the tendriculos and treant aren't even available at that level. Out of those, I'm inclined to think that the tendriculos is the only creature that could justify presence which isn't there yet, but it'd be a thing heavily dependent on getting that regeneration, which isn't the best deal.

Snip
Yeah, I remember seeing that one awhile back. Might take a bit to do the comparative viability stuff for it, particularly relative to what I already have.

[Norin]

Im excited to see this posted. I had access to one of your earlier drafts through google docs and im looking forward to reading this complete hanbook.

Thanks for your long and studiuos work eggy.

[Dread_Head]

This is an amazing handbook, very thorough and well written. Well done on all your hard work.

A race which might bear mentioning is Changeling as with the Racial Emulation feat they can take any combination of racial ACFs and enter racial PrC's when you might not want that race (Seeker of the Misty Isle for example).

Edit: Also maybe mention Shifter Braids in the Shifter section. They are from Races of Eberron and the most interesting one is probably the Braid of Spellstrike which for 500gp lets you cast a third level spell or lower on yourself as s swift action when you activate your shifter ability. It can be really handy in a tough spot to cheaply quicken a low level spell.

[Optimator]

Fantastic!!

[Elkad]

Rejuvenation Cocoon. You write it off as a non-combat heal.

Besides the 90-150hp healed, it also gives the target a force field with hardness 10 and CL*10 hp of it's own (uncapped). And allows the creature inside to take 2 rounds of uninterrupted actions of their own (more buffs, etc).
Touch a big guy blocking a hallway, and he buys you even more time (or makes the enemy squeeze past him).
Touch a friend in a nasty grapple, and he's safe for up to 2 rounds.
Touch yourself, and then use the 2 rounds to turn into a different color of bear and cast another buff.

That's a pretty decent defensive effect.

[Aerris]

I've been seeing (hearing?) so much talk about eggynack's druid handbook, and for a such long time, I started thinking of it as a sort of an Atlantis. But whaddya know, Atlantis is real and its as amazing as everyone thought it would be. Internets for you sir, all of 'em.

[Fizban]

Time for some criticism:

Under the Initiate of Pelor feat, you say that +2 turning damage doesn't do anything in this edition: turning damage is the number of hit dice worth of undead you turn, starting at 2d6+level+cha. I think there was another minor error I saw when reading but I forgot it since last night.

I'd like to see a source list (source: contains x/y/z), or some sort of common bans list or something. Each individual entry has the info of course, but considering the number of times you say "this from dragon magazine is better," it'd be nice if there was a section that said, "this is all the stuff from dragon magazine so if you can't use it here's your alternatives." Personally I put Assume Supernatural Ability and Enhance Wild Shape straight on the ban list because "everyone knows" you're not supposed to get that stuff that easily, and I'm sure plenty of other DMs would agree, so a list of either the forms still worth it or those made useless (depending on ease) would be nice.

I also can't say I'm enamored of the format. Large text in a narrow band with page breaks is very hard to binge on or quickly scroll around, especially adding the lag on google docs. I can't argue with it being easier for saving and editing and such, but I find it much harder to use than forum based content.

Agree with Darrin that a mundane equipment section would be nice, or rather is necessary.* "Magic items" needs some serious organization, right now it's just a list of everything and that's not very helpful. Alphabetic order isn't needed when you can ctrl+f, and if you're familiar you'll remember things by categories of usefulness anyway. Why not list the power components together, and the wild shape items together, and the spellcasting items together, and so on, ordered by price? I was also expecting more cross-referencing, like the wild shape section including the list of wild shape items and what forms they combo with when appropriate, maybe a short list of buff spells, stuff like that.

I was gonna suggest some serious wild shape tables, but I checked around a bit and the wild shape section isn't that long. Which actually strikes me as a bit of a problem: again, assuming maximum permissiveness is not very conductive to a useful handbook in my opinion. At level 5: you mention the Desmodu Hunting Bat, but what if the DM says that's just plain ridiculous, for any good or bad reason? No mention of the alternatives. There's dinosaurs, but no mention of cheetahs or leopards for games without dinosaurs. I always like to have at least two answers: the strongest answer, and the one I think I can actually use. I think at least the animal section is suffering severely from the desire to only list the most powerful of options. I saw no mention of the Dire Wolf, which is quite confusing when you intend to summon them in packs, so is it good or bad? What about Dire Hawks/Eagles/Vultures, are those better or worse than bats? What about t-rex's and triceratops? I'm guessing the spell, summon, and alternate wild shape sections are all much larger, but animals are more accessible (especially if you have some sort of familiarity restrictions) and many animals I expect to see commentary on are missing here.

*My desire to avoid assuming maximum permissions applies here too, I'd never heard of Sentira before today (and I go cross eyed whenever someone cites Expedition to Castle Ravenloft as a source :smallfurious:). I'd also point out that XPH crystal materials count as metal for druids, so I'd expect any psionic related crystal to do the same.

[KingSmitty]

perfect! Just as I start a new druid a new handbook comes to town! Huzzah!

[eggynack]

Under the Initiate of Pelor feat, you say that +2 turning damage doesn't do anything in this edition: turning damage is the number of hit dice worth of undead you turn, starting at 2d6+level+cha. I think there was another minor error I saw when reading but I forgot it since last night.
True enough. Fixed.


I'd like to see a source list (source: contains x/y/z), or some sort of common bans list or something. Each individual entry has the info of course, but considering the number of times you say "this from dragon magazine is better," it'd be nice if there was a section that said, "this is all the stuff from dragon magazine so if you can't use it here's your alternatives." Personally I put Assume Supernatural Ability and Enhance Wild Shape straight on the ban list because "everyone knows" you're not supposed to get that stuff that easily, and I'm sure plenty of other DMs would agree, so a list of either the forms still worth it or those made useless (depending on ease) would be nice.
I don't think a source list is all that feasible, at least in the short term, and I dunno that it'd be that useful. After all, if there's no information next to the list of game objects, then knowing they're there is rather pointless, and any quantity of information would basically make the source list the length of a handbook. For the ban list, anything more granular than book is just about pointless because of how much it varies from game to game. Had I some strange data set that could tell me what sorts of non-book bans were or were not common, then that'd be one thing, but just hazarding guesses into the wind isn't all that great a plan.


I also can't say I'm enamored of the format. Large text in a narrow band with page breaks is very hard to binge on or quickly scroll around, especially adding the lag on google docs. I can't argue with it being easier for saving and editing and such, but I find it much harder to use than forum based content.

Unfortunately, doing it otherwise turned out to be quite implausible. I was originally planning to construct it in site, but it turned out that that killed all my formatting, and would have required something like 50 separate forum posts. Would've taken like a month, I think, and the end result would have had every section split across a number of posts, with some of the larger subsections (say a given spell level) requiring multiple posts in and of itself.


"Magic items" needs some serious organization, right now it's just a list of everything and that's not very helpful. Alphabetic order isn't needed when you can ctrl+f, and if you're familiar you'll remember things by categories of usefulness anyway. Why not list the power components together, and the wild shape items together, and the spellcasting items together, and so on, ordered by price? I was also expecting more cross-referencing, like the wild shape section including the list of wild shape items and what forms they combo with when appropriate, maybe a short list of buff spells, stuff like that.
Organization of that section is definitely in the cards. My current plan is to make it consistent with the feat section, breaking it across groups and keeping the alphabetical order within those groups, but making the suborder price has always been a consideration. One big issue along those lines are those two item sets, because their constituent items vary in ability. Might have to toss those in a miscellaneous section, or otherwise double list. Meanwhile, I don't think that there's sufficient specificity of pairings between, to use your example, forms and items, to make such a thing logical. Only thing I can think of that fits the bill is the pectoral of maneuverability. Any existing breakdown is largely across broad types, with offensive buffs working better on offensive creatures, and defensive buffs working better on defensive creatures.


I was gonna suggest some serious wild shape tables, but I checked around a bit and the wild shape section isn't that long. Which actually strikes me as a bit of a problem: again, assuming maximum permissiveness is not very conductive to a useful handbook in my opinion. At level 5: you mention the Desmodu Hunting Bat, but what if the DM says that's just plain ridiculous, for any good or bad reason? No mention of the alternatives. There's dinosaurs, but no mention of cheetahs or leopards for games without dinosaurs. I always like to have at least two answers: the strongest answer, and the one I think I can actually use. I think at least the animal section is suffering severely from the desire to only list the most powerful of options.
While it makes sense to have some layering, anticipating the specific ban list of arbitrary DM's, beyond a simple split between core and non-core, is as impossible as I noted above. After all, one could just as easily claim that there should be an entry for, say, badger, because the DM has decided to ban all forms that aren't badgers or similar to badgers. Thus, I have fleshraker as the clear best combat option, and deinonychus as a fancy alternative, and including leopard/cheetah when the deinonychus is right there doesn't make massive sense to me. I mean, it's justifiable, because adding that awful grappling/tripping isn't a non-object, but the deinonychus is so much better. I guess my point is, my list of 5th level forms has the best option (fleshraker), the best option if books that far out are banned (deinonychus), the probable next best option after that (black bear, which, though I suspect leopard is advantaged, has the benefit of being something I really wanted to talk about anyway), and then the weird options (sailsnake, swindlespitter, and so on). Not sure how much deeper I have to go here.


I saw no mention of the Dire Wolf, which is quite confusing when you intend to summon them in packs, so is it good or bad?
The dire wolf is, in point of fact, both. It is good when you're summoning it, which is why it's on the summons list, and mediocre when you're becoming it, which is why it's not on the wild shape list. The important thing is context.


What about Dire Hawks/Eagles/Vultures, are those better or worse than bats?
What you're primarily after, in a flying casting form, is good maneuverability, as this improves your ability to cast spells a great deal. What you're secondarily after is good defenses, and also high initiative, because those are the important stats when you're going that route. All of these creatures fail the first test, and they do somewhat worse at the second. Which is why I didn't list them.


What about t-rex's and triceratops? I'm guessing the spell, summon, and alternate wild shape sections are all much larger, but animals are more accessible (especially if you have some sort of familiarity restrictions) and many animals I expect to see commentary on are missing here.
I'm not much of a fan of tyrannosaurus. Its big asset is that it can swallow whole with decent efficiency, but given that you can only hit medium creatures with that, you're not actually that efficient with it at all. It is a decent summons, however, because in the narrower context of summonable creatures, its damage is quite good, and the situationality of its swallow whole is less of an issue. Meanwhile, I do have triceratops as a wild shape form, because the combination of trample and powerful charge is useful when you expect to be attacking over a few turns, but it's a creature rather overshadowed by same level options at its direct combat shtick. I think the thing I am missing, however, is dire tiger, which seems to be the main competition with triceratops as a summons.

[eggynack]

Just taking a bit to assess this list of gestalt things, because now that I have planar touchstone down (albeit in a way that could easily be expanded upon, because even just that one touchstone offers a lot of possibilities), I think that's the next thing on the list.


Totemist synergizes well with Druid, since soulmelds work while wildshaped. However, you really ought to mention how sweet it is that just about every single buff you get from your soulmelds is also applied to your animal companion. It might be the single best gestalt for an animal companion-focused Druid, I think?
I'm not all that sure where the soulmelds applying to animal companions thing is coming from. Share soulmeld is a thing, but that doesn't seem all that reliable.


Shedu Crown is a notable soulmeld that you missed. The crown bind gives you telepathy, which is useful for letting you communicate while in animal form.
Noted and added.


Incidentally, Incarnate is also very good for a Druid. It doesn't have the same volume of natural weapon-based soulmelds, and you don't get the good Reflex saves, but if you're not focused on wrecking faces with claw-claw-bites, then Incarnate melds offer superior utility for a more casting-oriented Druid, and you get more essentia.
I can probably run research in the same fashion as I did for totemist, but what soulmelds do you think merit inclusion for incarnate?


Master of Many Forms is a pretty fantastic gestalt option too. So are psionic classes--you don't even need Natural Spell for them. I'd also put Cloistered Cleric above Wizard, personally.[/QUOTE]



Archivist: If you get proper scroll access, you can cast just about whatever spells you want, and your bonus spells are Wisdom-based, so you have stat synergy.
Maybe. You do hit up more spells than for cleric, but honestly, it feels like a lot of what the druid brings to the table is already being covered by the archivist. Like, you're getting wild shape and the animal companion, which is nice, but on the spell end you're only really adding spells/day. I think you'd be better off running archivist with something else, or druid with something else.


Ardent: The upside of being Wisdom-based is probably outweighed by the more restricted power access compared to a Psion, but it's still a pretty solid option. At level 10 you get to abuse metapsionics like nobody's business (using the Dominant Ideal variant), which can get very silly. Creation, Freedom, Knowledge, and Time are some of the best mantles.
Makes sense, I think, though I do always hate it when the thing I want to use as the baseline, in this case being psion, is listed after the thing I want to use as the incoming game object. I mean, I do it all the time in the handbook, because I didn't write it in order at all, and because I don't like going back and rewriting whole descriptions to make the order work, but it's always annoying.


Artificer: Craft whatever items you want, because you're awesome like that. Great passive side for any caster.
Maybe, yeah, though it'd probably need to go on the research pile rather than the "Add it right now" pile.


Bard: Great skill-monkey class with a lot of out-of-combat utility. You can get into Sublime Chord, too. Divine Bard is a good option to reduce Charisma dependence.
I don't think this adds all that much. In particular, it feels like bard is a pretty active class, pulling actions for its features and giving little in the way of extra actions. What bard does out of combat doesn't seem worth it on its own.


Beguiler: Adds a lot of sneaky and manipulative abilities. Good mix of casting and skills, and doesn't put pressure on your actions in combat.
This doesn't seem to get much over a wizard. Some, sure, but not enough to nearly make up for the difference.


Binder: Lots of utility. Universally good passive side for just about any gestalt. All your abilities work in animal form.
This one would also have to go on the research list, though I suspect it'd be easier than incarnate and artificier.

Cloistered Cleric: Wisdom synergy. Skill points. Domains. Effectively double your spell slots. Always a strong choice. Note that it's just strictly better than the standard Cleric, since you get your BAB and hit die back from the Druid side and you can't wear heavy armor anyway.
Added, though a lot of emphasis was placed on DMM, cause that seems really essential to having a double casting build.


Ninja: Monks and Swordsages aren't the only ones who get Wis to AC. Ninjas have that going for them, plus sudden strike and skillmonkey cred.
Should be simple enough, so it's worth adding despite not being massively impactful.

Psion: Full casting, and has enough action economy abuse and long-duration buffs that it can be passive too.
That is really weird. I thought I had this one already, but I guess I just mentioned psion gestalt in that one weird psionic wild shape form.

Psychic Warrior: Wisdom synergy, and fits just fine into a natural weapon strategy.
It's decent, but I'm not sure I see the point over a psion in the vast majority of cases. It doesn't even look like the SAD setup is getting you more power points, which would be the main incentive.

Rogue: Classic skillmonkey. The most skill points, and lots of class skills. Doesn't pressure your actions in combat. You can take sneak attack or bonus feats, hard to go wrong either way. Not as good as Factotum if you have high Int, but not everyone has high Int.
Scout: Solid choice for skills. Good fit from a thematic perspective too. Okay, some of the class skills are redundant, but you have easy access to pounce, which works pretty well with skirmish.
These both seem kinda similarly mediocre. Factotum is cool because of the whole action thing, and skillmonkeying on its own just doesn't seem like enough incentive.

Warblade: Tends to turn Druid into the passive side, but still very nice if you're looking to brawl in melee.
Turning druid into a passive side for warblade seems like the kinda thing that would be very bad from an optimization perspective.

Warlock: Lots of great passive buffs and at-will utility. (Don't get sucked into eldritch blast, it's basically just a reserve feat. Unless Dragon Magazine is in play, in which case Eldritch Claws works nicely with wild shape.)
Makes sense. Probably on the binder level of necessary research.

[Troacctid]

I'm not all that sure where the soulmelds applying to animal companions thing is coming from. Share soulmeld is a thing, but that doesn't seem all that reliable.
It doesn't have any use limits or anything. You just need to be within 5 feet of your animal companion, which is easy enough to do. I mean, if you're giving it soulmelds to buff its melee combat, you'll have to go into melee with it, but since you probably shaped those soulmelds to give yourself the same buffs, I assume that's something you're okay with.


I can probably run research in the same fashion as I did for totemist, but what soulmelds do you think merit inclusion for incarnate?
Cerulean Sandals for teleports. (You'd think it would be just worse than the Blink Shirt until you read it and realize that it's not self-only, meaning, among other things, that Share Soulmeld allows your animal companion to teleport you using its action instead of your own.)
Necrocarnum Circlet for zombie minions.
Vitality Belt for tons o' HP (and +4 to Concentration).
Strongheart Vest to protect against ability damage.
Astral Vambraces for DR/magic (broken at low levels).
Dissolving Spittle for a handy ranged touch attack (mainly at low levels, before you have access to better options). Also works great as an attack option for your familiar if you use the Urban Companion variant.
Fellmist Robe for concealment against ranged attacks.
Impulse Boots for Uncanny Dodge and Evasion.
Bluesteel Bracers for extra initiative.
Lucky Dice for (essentially) +1 to everything you do, and, with a chakra bind, everything your allies do.
Various soulmelds that give bonuses to various skills, saves, or AC.


Maybe. You do hit up more spells than for cleric, but honestly, it feels like a lot of what the druid brings to the table is already being covered by the archivist. Like, you're getting wild shape and the animal companion, which is nice, but on the spell end you're only really adding spells/day. I think you'd be better off running archivist with something else, or druid with something else.
Maybe, but that's not necessarily more true for Archivist than it is for Wizard.


I don't think this adds all that much. In particular, it feels like bard is a pretty active class, pulling actions for its features and giving little in the way of extra actions. What bard does out of combat doesn't seem worth it on its own.
Most Bard features don't pull actions. Don't overestimate the importance of Inspire Courage. It's a nice ability, but you don't need to spend actions on it if you have better things to do. (Or you can take Song of the White Raven and make it a swift action so it doesn't compete with your Druid stuff.) The Bard's noncombat abilities are the main draw. The spell list has a lot of stuff Druids don't normally get--in fact, there's not even a whole lot of overlap between them--and the skills open up new roles for you as a trickster or diplomat or whatever.


This doesn't seem to get much over a wizard. Some, sure, but not enough to nearly make up for the difference.

These both seem kinda similarly mediocre. Factotum is cool because of the whole action thing, and skillmonkeying on its own just doesn't seem like enough incentive.
Skills are nice.


This one would also have to go on the research list, though I suspect it'd be easier than incarnate and artificier.
Crake's vestige list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?358392-The-new-quick-vestige-list) should be helpful here.


It's decent, but I'm not sure I see the point over a psion in the vast majority of cases. It doesn't even look like the SAD setup is getting you more power points, which would be the main incentive.
Main incentive is more support for a Druid who wants to get into melee combat. You get Fighter bonus feats, and there are some Psychic Warrior powers that synergize with natural weapons that you don't get as a Psion. I agree that Psion is better though.


Turning druid into a passive side for warblade seems like the kinda thing that would be very bad from an optimization perspective.
Or very good, if you're starting from the Warblade side. :smallwink:

It's a good lead-in for prestige classes like Warshaper and War Mind, it upgrades your chassis to full BAB and a d12 hit die, and if you're starting at a low enough level, then Warblade is arguably the most powerful class in the game anyway. Sure, it drops off later on, but you're a god in the early game, and by the time your maneuvers start to lose effectiveness, your spells have picked up.

[Venger]

Thanks for posting this. It's a masterpiece. Now I can link people to it when they ask how to druid.

[eggynack]

It doesn't have any use limits or anything. You just need to be within 5 feet of your animal companion, which is easy enough to do. I mean, if you're giving it soulmelds to buff its melee combat, you'll have to go into melee with it, but since you probably shaped those soulmelds to give yourself the same buffs, I assume that's something you're okay with.
Yeah, you're right. I was reading it as though it were share spells, which is unreliable due to the fact that spells go away when you break the radius, when you actually get the benefits as long as they're in the radius.



Cerulean Sandals for teleports. (You'd think it would be just worse than the Blink Shirt until you read it and realize that it's not self-only, meaning, among other things, that Share Soulmeld allows your animal companion to teleport you using its action instead of your own.)
Necrocarnum Circlet for zombie minions.
Vitality Belt for tons o' HP (and +4 to Concentration).
Strongheart Vest to protect against ability damage.
Astral Vambraces for DR/magic (broken at low levels).
Dissolving Spittle for a handy ranged touch attack (mainly at low levels, before you have access to better options). Also works great as an attack option for your familiar if you use the Urban Companion variant.
Fellmist Robe for concealment against ranged attacks.
Impulse Boots for Uncanny Dodge and Evasion.
Bluesteel Bracers for extra initiative.
Lucky Dice for (essentially) +1 to everything you do, and, with a chakra bind, everything your allies do.
Various soulmelds that give bonuses to various skills, saves, or AC.
Nice. That should speed things up quite a bit.


Maybe, but that's not necessarily more true for Archivist than it is for Wizard.
It's somewhat more true. The archivist list covers the druid list entirely, while the wizard list covers it partially, and wizard tends to have stronger access to action economy manipulation.


Most Bard features don't pull actions. Don't overestimate the importance of Inspire Courage. It's a nice ability, but you don't need to spend actions on it if you have better things to do. (Or you can take Song of the White Raven and make it a swift action so it doesn't compete with your Druid stuff.) The Bard's noncombat abilities are the main draw. The spell list has a lot of stuff Druids don't normally get--in fact, there's not even a whole lot of overlap between them--and the skills open up new roles for you as a trickster or diplomat or whatever.
I get that the non-combat abilities are good, but if that's all that's on the table, then other classes fill the role better. Like, again, wizard. Meanwhile, inspire courage isn't massively resource intensive, but it does eat up your initial spell volley, or otherwise a bunch of critical feats. There's definitely a lot of non-overlap, but I think that you can get that same non-overlap better elsewhere. I mean, realistically, wizard would be better at filling this non-combat role even if they pulled only from the bard list, based only on how great prepared casting is at non-combat.



Skills are nice.
They're nice, sure, but I don't think they can be the primary draw, especially when the druid is doing pretty well for skills already. From a point perspective, you're getting a maximum of four extra skills per level (assuming you distribute maximally, because alternatives are occasionally better but not enough to change evaluation much). From a list perspective, I think you usually have more skills than you have points to put them in.


Crake's vestige list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?358392-The-new-quick-vestige-list) should be helpful here.
Fancy.


Main incentive is more support for a Druid who wants to get into melee combat. You get Fighter bonus feats, and there are some Psychic Warrior powers that synergize with natural weapons that you don't get as a Psion. I agree that Psion is better though.
The feats are only going to be decent, ranking at some pretty low fractional level of a real druid feat. The powers are more interesting, but the usual main incentive, expansion, probably doesn't stack with wild shape.


Or very good, if you're starting from the Warblade side. :smallwink:
True, I suppose, though I think the handbook is naturally going to be inclined the other way.


It's a good lead-in for prestige classes like Warshaper and War Mind, it upgrades your chassis to full BAB and a d12 hit die, and if you're starting at a low enough level, then Warblade is arguably the most powerful class in the game anyway. Sure, it drops off later on, but you're a god in the early game, and by the time your maneuvers start to lose effectiveness, your spells have picked up.
Yeah, the chassis is decent. Dunno if it's good enough yet, but it could wind up there. It doesn't help that I have a low opinion of warshaper.

In any case, there's definitely some scale of list that's being added to the one I have, which is neat. Gotta say, one annoying thing about having the handbook published is that I can't really just stick a blank entry up and fill it in months down the line. I suppose this thread is my blank entries at this point.

[Troacctid]

I get that the non-combat abilities are good, but if that's all that's on the table, then other classes fill the role better. Like, again, wizard. Meanwhile, inspire courage isn't massively resource intensive, but it does eat up your initial spell volley, or otherwise a bunch of critical feats. There's definitely a lot of non-overlap, but I think that you can get that same non-overlap better elsewhere. I mean, realistically, wizard would be better at filling this non-combat role even if they pulled only from the bard list, based only on how great prepared casting is at non-combat.

They're nice, sure, but I don't think they can be the primary draw, especially when the druid is doing pretty well for skills already. From a point perspective, you're getting a maximum of four extra skills per level (assuming you distribute maximally, because alternatives are occasionally better but not enough to change evaluation much). From a list perspective, I think you usually have more skills than you have points to put them in.

You've got to figure in that we're talking about stuff that's pretty much entirely passive. No, Rogue and Scout aren't powerful classes. But then again, neither is Monk. Put Monk side by side next to Rogue. You can get the Monk's most attractive class feature for 13,000 gp. How much would it cost to get full sneak attack (or Fighter bonus feat) progression and 4 extra skill points per level?

Bard and Beguiler are similar, except with fewer skill points in exchange for spells, which is a pretty solid trade.

It's also just generally good when you can upgrade your chassis, so getting more skill points and a good Reflex save out of your other side is something I tend to value.

[eggynack]

You've got to figure in that we're talking about stuff that's pretty much entirely passive. No, Rogue and Scout aren't powerful classes. But then again, neither is Monk. Put Monk side by side next to Rogue. You can get the Monk's most attractive class feature for 13,000 gp. How much would it cost to get full sneak attack (or Fighter bonus feat) progression and 4 extra skill points per level?
The monk is good because you get all this stuff in one level, two levels max. In the same time frame of rogue, you don't get full sneak attack, but rather 1d6 sneak attack, and yes, those few skill points. You seem to be asserting the rogue as a long term gestalt option, and that just doesn't seem all that viable.


Bard and Beguiler are similar, except with fewer skill points in exchange for spells, which is a pretty solid trade.
Maybe in that context, but it doesn't seem all that solid in the broader context of all gestalt options.


It's also just generally good when you can upgrade your chassis, so getting more skill points and a good Reflex save out of your other side is something I tend to value.
Maybe. I just tend to think of druids in terms of higher order things. Granted, you can't exactly double down on druid awesomeness, but you're still getting minor BAB bonuses on top of ridiculous spell stuff. Going back to the monk versus rogue comparison, one really good thing about monk in that comparison is that it's defensive, and doesn't really dictate the course of your actions. It thus works a lot better with my preference for shooting spells all over the place.

[Fizban]

Unfortunately, doing it otherwise turned out to be quite implausible.
Ah well.

Organization of that section is definitely in the cards. My current plan is to make it consistent with the feat section, breaking it across groups and keeping the alphabetical order within those groups, but making the suborder price has always been a consideration.
Sounds good.

While it makes sense to have some layering, anticipating the specific ban list of arbitrary DM's, beyond a simple split between core and non-core, is as impossible as I noted above.
We'll just have to disagree then. I find the core/non-core split to be a far more arbitrary assumption than banning known issues, and don't see a problem with making some guesses. Threads about the PHB2 Shapeshift often include posters that have made it the only druid in their games. Some people like historical settings without weird races or dinosaurs even if there's ridiculous magic. Some people (at least myself and people I've played with) will occasionally look as the strongest option and say "No, that's too strong, show me second-best," just because.

The dire wolf is, in point of fact, both. It is good when you're summoning it, which is why it's on the summons list, and mediocre when you're becoming it, which is why it's not on the wild shape list. The important thing is context. . .
All of these creatures fail the first test, and they do somewhat worse at the second. Which is why I didn't list them.
I get that you'd want to only cover the best with how much stuff there is, but I can't call that comprehensive in my book. Or at least change from thinking "all the guides in one" to "max power choices for all the main abilities in one place." I want a guide to list not only the best, but also the traps, and the "that sounds like a good idea but this is better." Again I haven't read the spells or summoning sections, but if the whole guide is written assuming max permission/core-only split and only noting the most powerful options, I expect I'll continue to disagree on some points.

I could also be making a faulty assumption: I assume most people use guide/handbook/whatever interchangeably. If a handbook is meant to be shorter and limited to only the best then that's understandable, the naming convention being "comprehensive" for hitting all the abilities and "handbook" for fast access to the best stuff.

[eggynack]

We'll just have to disagree then. I find the core/non-core split to be a far more arbitrary assumption than banning known issues, and don't see a problem with making some guesses. Threads about the PHB2 Shapeshift often include posters that have made it the only druid in their games. Some people like historical settings without weird races or dinosaurs even if there's ridiculous magic. Some people (at least myself and people I've played with) will occasionally look as the strongest option and say "No, that's too strong, show me second-best," just because.
The advantage of core/non-core is that it's clearly labeled, and whether book restrictions are more arbitrary or not, I think they're more common. The running theme of this post, for I wrote this sentence and the rest of these sentences here at the very end, is that you gotta draw the line somewhere. I think I have a pretty good variety here, if not a perfect one. If you think a given thing that's not here should be here, then it's entirely possible that you're right, but there really has to be justification beyond possible banning in most cases, because that can justify anything.

Because, I gotta say, I think I do have the second best options. And the third best options. Usually within subcategories of subcategories. I even have a write up of the shapeshift ACF. Right now, you're criticizing me for not having, say, the fifth or sixth best option in some category, and while that's a valid criticism, it's definitely not the same criticism. I don't think there's much danger of a given DM banning you down beyond your ability to play effectively using only options listed in the handbook, even if there may be a danger of them banning you down to a level where you'd be more effective using the full range of options.


I get that you'd want to only cover the best with how much stuff there is, but I can't call that comprehensive in my book. Or at least change from thinking "all the guides in one" to "max power choices for all the main abilities in one place." I want a guide to list not only the best, but also the traps, and the "that sounds like a good idea but this is better." Again I haven't read the spells or summoning sections, but if the whole guide is written assuming max permission/core-only split and only noting the most powerful options, I expect I'll continue to disagree on some points.

I could also be making a faulty assumption: I assume most people use guide/handbook/whatever interchangeably. If a handbook is meant to be shorter and limited to only the best then that's understandable, the naming convention being "comprehensive" for hitting all the abilities and "handbook" for fast access to the best stuff.
I just don't see much point in listing everything, and beyond that, listing literally everything would take crazy time. My general operating procedure is to list options that have some sort of unique impact on what you can do. Not just best, but anything viable that can be said to not be strictly worse than already present options, or if there's at least some book separation. I also, as I noted in the rating guide, list things that I hear folks speaking well of that I think are crappy. Also weird or amusing things, because I can be only what I am. If I were just listing the most powerful options, then this handbook would be a whole hell of a lot shorter than it is. I don't see much point, however, in listing stuff that's just kinda mediocre and uninteresting. I may be wrong, but I think that the dire wolf, with its low damage, low AC, and only a single halfway decent trip as a unique feature, falls into that mediocre and uninteresting category.

[Fizban]

The point of doing everything is so it's all done, to have all the information in one place. To be fully comprehensive one must include everything. I wouldn't say that's a reasonable goal, but it's what I think when I hear the word.

Uninteresting is subjective, some people think wolves are awesome and bats are dumb. I see no difference between "things that people have spoken well of" and "things other people like," and other people can like a lot of stuff. So if things that are spoken well of get rebuttals, why doesn't everything get rebuttals? Mediocrity is determined by the rules of the game, which could be altered based on sourcebooks or individual bans. You say you left off the dire wolf because it's uninteresting and mediocre, but all I see is that a fairly obvious wild shape option is completely unaddressed, especially puzzling when the same animal is mentioned in other places.

If we're focusing on core/non-core then fine. What flying form should I use at 5th level in core? Are there any core animals worth wildshaping into after 8th besides giant squid and triceratops? I see no mention of Treants, which have a fairly unique double damage against objects and are one of the few core plants. Are brown bears and dire bears really mediocre and uninteresting for wild shape? Because I hear people talking about those all the time.

If by the writeup for the shapeshift ACF you mean the one under variants, all I see is reasons why it's bad. No consideration that it gives you a form of shapeshifting at 1st level if that's what you're looking for, or suggestions on how to make the best of it. One of the big points you made at the start of the guide was that you can hand a good player a druid with nothing but toughness and a pony who is currently a pony and they'd break the game next turn, it was quite exciting. What if you hand the same player a shapeshift druid, can they make some use of it or do they just resign in protest?

A feat that might be worth adding: Wild Cohort. If one animal companion is good then two should be better. This also gives you a way to replace both spontaneous summoning and animal companion (mostly) with feats, should you desire variants that remove both of them.

Because, I gotta say, I think I do have the second best options. And the third best options. Usually within subcategories of subcategories. I even have a write up of the shapeshift ACF. Right now, you're criticizing me for not having, say, the fifth or sixth best option in some category
I've read the feats and variants and skimmed back and forth over the normal wildshape section. The first two felt like they had every option listed, it's only the wildshape that felt lacking. In comparison, the wild shape section has big blank spots over forms I'd expect analyzed and levels where I know there are upgrades not mentioned (Dire Bears at 12th for example).

And like I said above, I'm being a bit pedantic. You've titled your work Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook but there's tons of stuff not covered, ignoring the mediocre isn't being comprehensive. And your pony example set my expectations pretty high, like you were gonna take every variant and restriction and show how to bend past them. If you'd just called it Eggnyack's Druid Handbook I could brush it off as personal preference, but I've been set up I tell you!

[eggynack]

The point of doing everything is so it's all done, to have all the information in one place. To be fully comprehensive one must include everything. I wouldn't say that's a reasonable goal, but it's what I think when I hear the word.
It's one way of looking at it. My way of thinking is that the guide contains just about everything you need to play a druid at maximum effectiveness, with a lot of the best stuff from every source available. Moreover, the information on any given game object displayed is about as comprehensive as exists.


Uninteresting is subjective, some people think wolves are awesome and bats are dumb. I see no difference between "things that people have spoken well of" and "things other people like," and other people can like a lot of stuff. So if things that are spoken well of get rebuttals, why doesn't everything get rebuttals? Mediocrity is determined by the rules of the game, which could be altered based on sourcebooks or individual bans. You say you left off the dire wolf because it's uninteresting and mediocre, but all I see is that a fairly obvious wild shape option is completely unaddressed, especially puzzling when the same animal is mentioned in other places.

I don't think I've actually seen much mention of the dire wolf as a wild shape form, and definitely not a really good one. Let's be realistic here. If I wrote up dire wolf, it'd probably look something like this:


Dire Wolf: This creature has rather low damage, with only a single attack dealing 1d8+10, rather weak defenses, and no real utility that doesn't apply directly to hitting enemies in the face. However, it does have one asset of note, which is its ability to trip. With a +11 on the trip check, and an above average 25 strength making your bite attack relatively accurate, you wind up with better odds of tripping than most options of this level. Still, knocking someone prone only gets you so far, especially with the limited reach and single attack that the dire wolf provides, so this form isn't great at controlling the battlefield. If you just want to trip folks, then dire wolf is a reasonable option, but in the broader context of combat capabilities, the weak chassis and only alright combat maneuver means that it's not especially high on the list.


So, yeah. I guess I could just copy and paste that in, if ya want. Seems decent enough as an entry, but whether it winds up included or not, I think it serves as a good explanation of why I find some of these forms uninteresting.


If we're focusing on core/non-core then fine. What flying form should I use at 5th level in core?
I don't think there's anything of note. Or, to be more accurate, the answer is eagle. It's the only option that fit that category at all. Might be worth inclusion on that basis.
Are there any core animals worth wildshaping into after 8th besides giant squid and triceratops?

I see no mention of Treants, which have a fairly unique double damage against objects and are one of the few core plants.
Double damage against objects is certainly somewhat unique, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily interesting. You're hitting them for more damage than most options, but taking up a wild shape use for that, and presumably a second to change back, and likely eating up a round of object punching in the process, seems counterproductive. And, as I implied in my response to hiro quester, being a plant isn't an intrinsically valuable thing.

Are brown bears and dire bears really mediocre and uninteresting for wild shape? Because I hear people talking about those all the time.
Brown bear is incredibly uninteresting for wild shape, solely because the strictly superior polar bear is sitting right there. Dire bear, that one may deserve a slot.


If by the writeup for the shapeshift ACF you mean the one under variants, all I see is reasons why it's bad. No consideration that it gives you a form of shapeshifting at 1st level if that's what you're looking for, or suggestions on how to make the best of it. One of the big points you made at the start of the guide was that you can hand a good player a druid with nothing but toughness and a pony who is currently a pony and they'd break the game next turn, it was quite exciting. What if you hand the same player a shapeshift druid, can they make some use of it or do they just resign in protest?
It's certainly not as good, but unless you traded it away also, then you can still spontaneously toss out creatures of various types. If you did trade that away also, then you've lost most or all of the things that let a crappily built druid spontaneously break the game, which means that you probably can't spontaneously break the game. The use an experienced player would get out of it would likely be derived entirely from spell preparation, and they would still be able to claim that tier one caster power that way. Not as awesome, certainly, but resigning need not be in the cards.

The problem with shapeshift is that it's mostly just not good. They designed it really well, from the ground up, to be not good. There aren't really any cool tricks, or ways to bypass the drawbacks, or even things you can do that are substantially different from what wild shape provides. That you get it early is mostly meaningless, because it's at the cost of the action economy breaking companion in terms of combat, and you can't even cast spells with it on, and it's this great big tragedy of an ACF. Or the opposite, cause it was probably designed to be like that.



A feat that might be worth adding: Wild Cohort. If one animal companion is good then two should be better. This also gives you a way to replace both spontaneous summoning and animal companion (mostly) with feats, should you desire variants that remove both of them.
I'm inclined to think of wild cohort as something of the opposite of a druid feat. In other words, going from zero to one companions is way better than going from one to two, which causes the feat to be better in the hands of literally anyone else. It's cool, because animal companion friendship party, but it doesn't seem all that good.

I've read the feats and variants and skimmed back and forth over the normal wildshape section. The first two felt like they had every option listed, it's only the wildshape that felt lacking. In comparison, the wild shape section has big blank spots over forms I'd expect analyzed and levels where I know there are upgrades not mentioned (Dire Bears at 12th for example).
Quite plausible. To be honest, the big issue I had with wild shape section construction was that there's so much strict superiority. Unlike with feats, where the second best wild shape feat, dragon wild shape, offers a completely different and interesting set of abilities compared to the best option, the second best wild shape option tends to just be like the best option with one less AC. So you have to write, "You should obviously pick that one over there, with the better AC, if it's available," and it ends up feeling really dumb. And, even when there's no strict superiority, you still face gaps like that between the dire tortoise and most other things of that level, because at that point it's less like aberration wild shape and dragon wild shape, and more like aberration wild shape and vermin wild shape. Animal companions had similar problems, but at least there you had a set list. Same with 9th level spells, actually.



And like I said above, I'm being a bit pedantic. You've titled your work Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook but there's tons of stuff not covered, ignoring the mediocre isn't being comprehensive. And your pony example set my expectations pretty high, like you were gonna take every variant and restriction and show how to bend past them. If you'd just called it Eggnyack's Druid Handbook I could brush it off as personal preference, but I've been set up I tell you!
I can buy that the wild shape section is more sparse than it should be, and my next set of edits will probably be adding stuff to that and gestalt. I doubt I can provide you with the strange variant and restriction bending handbook you've been seeking, but the version of the handbook that has dire bears in it is a lot more plausible.

Edit: I do think I have to note, however, that being mentioned in other sections outside of wild shape has only limited bearing on being mentioned within wild shape. Summons are different from wild shape forms in a lot of ways. First, where you use all the stats and abilities on a summoned creature, you use only a few as a form. So, while the summoned dire wolf has the highest HP of any summons at that level, providing it with great defense, that factor doesn't translate into the form at all, leaving it with only a crappy 14 AC for a defense that's mediocre at best. Second, the context is completely different. The summoned dire wolf only needs to be on par with a few specific creatures, while the form needs to compete with anything within the size limitations. Third, you care way less about the survival of a summoned creature than you do about your own life, so offense is heavily emphasized with summons and relatively downplayed on forms. Finally, while it's not relevant in this particular case, summons with a good number of attacks and no pounce are significantly better than the same creature as a wild shape form, because tossing out a summons allows you to place the creature right next to the opponent.

[Bullet06320]

Awesome, great job eggy!!!!
I learned a few new things about druids after delving into you work

one thing I did notice missing, unless I missed it too, lol, is no mention on of the dead levels article
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a
not great but free stuff is free stuff, and your opinion on those 2 abilities if the original ability is traded away for an ACF, and you no longer have them

[Troacctid]

The monk is good because you get all this stuff in one level, two levels max. In the same time frame of rogue, you don't get full sneak attack, but rather 1d6 sneak attack, and yes, those few skill points. You seem to be asserting the rogue as a long term gestalt option, and that just doesn't seem all that viable.


Maybe in that context, but it doesn't seem all that solid in the broader context of all gestalt options.


Maybe. I just tend to think of druids in terms of higher order things. Granted, you can't exactly double down on druid awesomeness, but you're still getting minor BAB bonuses on top of ridiculous spell stuff. Going back to the monk versus rogue comparison, one really good thing about monk in that comparison is that it's defensive, and doesn't really dictate the course of your actions. It thus works a lot better with my preference for shooting spells all over the place.
They're decent options because they're decent options with just about any active class. You get new niches to fill, solid stats to back it up, and almost all the abilities are passive. They're very much like Incarnate in a lot of ways. And, yes, Monk as well, I suppose. (I wouldn't discount the long-term viability of Monk either; the 7th level Dark Moon substitution is gas of a pretty high-octane variety, and you can follow up with a prestige class like Psionic Fist to stay relevant later on.)

Regarding Warlock, if you're using it as a passive side, invocations you might be interested in include:
Least
All-Seeing Eyes: Perception is always good.
Baleful Utterance: Solid utility invocation, if you're creative with it.
Beguiling Influence: If you want to be the face.
Call of the Beast: Speak with animals. More useful on a Druid than it usually would be, since you obviously interact with animals a lot. Also gives redundant Wild Empathy, so you can trade it for an ACF on the Druid side.
Darkness: 20% miss chance. Very nice defensively, although some enemies see through it, and it can be awkward if you're on the front lines and accidentally give your enemies concealment. (If that happens, you can just cover up the object you cast it on to toggle it off.) Notably enables several feats in DotU, including one that lets you hide in plain sight.
Otherworldly Whispers: Not as good as the Dragonfire Adept version, but +6 in three Knowledge skills plus Spellcraft is still not too shabby.
Spiderwalk: Useful in low-level dungeon crawls before you have easy access to flight. Trade it out later.
Summon Swarm: Game-breaking at level 1 with unstoppable AoE damage plus multiple debuffs. Falls off quickly, so swap it out ASAP.

Lesser
Charm: Not as good if you're not pumping Cha, but still good, and qualifies you for Mindbender.
The Dead Walk: You can solve a lot of problems with enough disposable zombie minions.
Fell Flight: Better than you'd think, since it essentially turns every form into bat form.
Flee the Scene: At-will teleportation. It's short range, but it still has amazing utility. And you can even bring people with you.
Relentless Dispelling: Dispelling gets a lot better when you can spam it to effectively take 20. Getting two shots makes it more reliable in combat, but losing the area and counterspell modes hurts its versatility somewhat.
Voracious Dispelling: The other one. The little bit of damage you deal is mostly irrelevant; the main reason you'd take it over Relentless Dispelling is to get the other two modes. I prefer Voracious Dispelling, but both are solid.
Walk Unseen: Hard to go wrong with at-will invisibility.

Greater
Chilling Tentacles: The premier battlefield control option for Warlocks. Significantly less impressive if you're also a Druid, but hey.
Devil's Whispers: It's basically Greater Charm. Decent.
Endless Slumber: The nice thing about having a spammable save-or-lose with no visible manifestation is you can sit in a tree in squirrel form and spam it at anyone walking by and they'll have no idea what's going on. This is the first one that's not language-dependent. I don't know how likely that is to come up in a game, but it sounds hilarious, doesn't it?
Vitriolic Blast: The premier blast essence, in case you want to actually use Eldritch Blast.
Warlock's Call: Sending isn't a super exciting spell, but it does get better when you can use it at will for free, and Druids don't normally get it.

Dark
Dark Foresight: It's not the best 9th level spell, and it's one that you can already get from Druid, but it is a 9th level spell at will. Foresight is a very nice defensive option at these high levels when it's so important to avoid getting jumped on, and this is like a mass version of it that includes telepathy. Best dark invocation not close.
Impenetrable Barrier: Wall of Force is a giant "NO" button to a lot of encounters. Comes online a little late, but eh.
Path of Shadow: Eh. Shadow Walk. It's okay I guess. Potentially upgrades to Greater Teleport + Greater Plane Shift in Epic levels via Dark Transient.
Retributive Invisibility: Upgrading to Greater Invisibility is nice, although by the time you're at 9th level spells, it feels a little late.

It dries up a bit after lessers, since by that point you can do most of the same stuff with Druid spells, and you have no shortage of spell slots. On the upside, the low-level utility is very real, and you get some great mid-game power spikes.

Also, on the topic of invocations, Spellthief is probably a viable gestalt if (and I assume only if) someone else in your party is a Warlock.


If we're focusing on core/non-core then fine. What flying form should I use at 5th level in core?
You mean between eagle and literally nothing else? I'd go with eagle. :smalltongue:

[eggynack]

one thing I did notice missing, unless I missed it too, lol, is no mention on of the dead levels article
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a
not great but free stuff is free stuff, and your opinion on those 2 abilities if the original ability is traded away for an ACF, and you no longer have them
Yeah, definitely missing that stuff. Woodland stride seems good, if overleveled, and I dislike repel nature's lure about as much as I disliked resist nature's lure. The interaction with trading the originals away is actually kinda weird, because I don't think you lose the new versions, and you wind up able to ignore only magical thorns, briars, and overgrown areas, still falling to the mundane version, and the other ability just works in a straightforward way. I guess I'll toss that in, I dunno, the ACF section? Slotting them under class features seems wrong somehow.

[Bullet06320]

its not exactly ACF, so class features would be where I would put them, and attach the link
it is an odd ball tho

[Fizban]

Quite plausible. To be honest, the big issue I had with wild shape section construction was that there's so much strict superiority. . . you have to write, "You should obviously pick that one over there, with the better AC, if it's available," and it ends up feeling really dumb.
Trying to avoid dumbness is understandable.

Polar Bear is only superior in it's swim speed and snow hiding bonus, while it's inferior in that you stick out even more than normal, and of course the DM could be using stricter availability. They're basically the same creature but the conspicuous absence of the less exotic brown bear again seems disorienting.

I think Treant could be useful for budget building destruction. Earthquake only does 100 damage to buildings in an 80' radius and costs an 8th level spell, but a treant can put out 50 or so per round all day. I suppose the normal response is that the fighter should be dealing more than that but treant is how a druid would do it.

Edit: I do think I have to note, however, that being mentioned in other sections outside of wild shape has only limited bearing on being mentioned within wild shape. Summons are different from wild shape forms in a lot of ways.
Is that called out strongly in the handbook though? (I could have missed it). Maybe it's a straw argument or condescending, but I expect anyone who's not already up on their optimization to follow simple paths. If it's good for summoning it ought to be good enough for wild shape right? But it's not, so you gotta tell them.

[Hiro Quester]

Trying to avoid dumbness is understandable.

Polar Bear is only superior in it's swim speed and snow hiding bonus, while it's inferior in that you stick out even more than normal, and of course the DM could be using stricter availability. They're basically the same creature but the conspicuous absence of the less exotic brown bear again seems disorienting.


Availability, by the way, is my issue. I'm using big cat for combat wildshape, because the DM ruled that since my PC has lived in tropical climates all his life he can't know enough about Polar bears, but might have a small chance of one day learning about Brown bears.

Sometimes it might be worth mentioning the almost but not quite as awesome options, if there is a geographical/availability/book difference that might make the more awesome option inaccessible.

[eggynack]

They're decent options because they're decent options with just about any active class. You get new niches to fill, solid stats to back it up, and almost all the abilities are passive. They're very much like Incarnate in a lot of ways. And, yes, Monk as well, I suppose. (I wouldn't discount the long-term viability of Monk either; the 7th level Dark Moon substitution is gas of a pretty high-octane variety, and you can follow up with a prestige class like Psionic Fist to stay relevant later on.)
I mean, sure, it's an edge over standard druid, this skill stuff. But it's such a minor edge. Whether it's a passive side that adds benefit is mostly irrelevant, because the core question is whether it's a passive side that adds benefit that's worthwhile when other options are on the table. And it's possible that they are, but it's by a tiny enough quantity that these things are way far down on my list of potential gestalts, and maybe off it entirely. I dunno. I'll see how the gestalt section looks when I'm done adding the things definitely worth adding, and figure out how these edge cases play out at that point.

Regarding Warlock, if you're using it as a passive side, invocations you might be interested in include:
Least
All-Seeing Eyes: Perception is always good.
Baleful Utterance: Solid utility invocation, if you're creative with it.
Beguiling Influence: If you want to be the face.
Call of the Beast: Speak with animals. More useful on a Druid than it usually would be, since you obviously interact with animals a lot. Also gives redundant Wild Empathy, so you can trade it for an ACF on the Druid side.
Darkness: 20% miss chance. Very nice defensively, although some enemies see through it, and it can be awkward if you're on the front lines and accidentally give your enemies concealment. (If that happens, you can just cover up the object you cast it on to toggle it off.) Notably enables several feats in DotU, including one that lets you hide in plain sight.
Otherworldly Whispers: Not as good as the Dragonfire Adept version, but +6 in three Knowledge skills plus Spellcraft is still not too shabby.
Spiderwalk: Useful in low-level dungeon crawls before you have easy access to flight. Trade it out later.
Summon Swarm: Game-breaking at level 1 with unstoppable AoE damage plus multiple debuffs. Falls off quickly, so swap it out ASAP.

Lesser
Charm: Not as good if you're not pumping Cha, but still good, and qualifies you for Mindbender.
The Dead Walk: You can solve a lot of problems with enough disposable zombie minions.
Fell Flight: Better than you'd think, since it essentially turns every form into bat form.
Flee the Scene: At-will teleportation. It's short range, but it still has amazing utility. And you can even bring people with you.
Relentless Dispelling: Dispelling gets a lot better when you can spam it to effectively take 20. Getting two shots makes it more reliable in combat, but losing the area and counterspell modes hurts its versatility somewhat.
Voracious Dispelling: The other one. The little bit of damage you deal is mostly irrelevant; the main reason you'd take it over Relentless Dispelling is to get the other two modes. I prefer Voracious Dispelling, but both are solid.
Walk Unseen: Hard to go wrong with at-will invisibility.

Greater
Chilling Tentacles: The premier battlefield control option for Warlocks. Significantly less impressive if you're also a Druid, but hey.
Devil's Whispers: It's basically Greater Charm. Decent.
Endless Slumber: The nice thing about having a spammable save-or-lose with no visible manifestation is you can sit in a tree in squirrel form and spam it at anyone walking by and they'll have no idea what's going on. This is the first one that's not language-dependent. I don't know how likely that is to come up in a game, but it sounds hilarious, doesn't it?
Vitriolic Blast: The premier blast essence, in case you want to actually use Eldritch Blast.
Warlock's Call: Sending isn't a super exciting spell, but it does get better when you can use it at will for free, and Druids don't normally get it.

Dark
Dark Foresight: It's not the best 9th level spell, and it's one that you can already get from Druid, but it is a 9th level spell at will. Foresight is a very nice defensive option at these high levels when it's so important to avoid getting jumped on, and this is like a mass version of it that includes telepathy. Best dark invocation not close.
Impenetrable Barrier: Wall of Force is a giant "NO" button to a lot of encounters. Comes online a little late, but eh.
Path of Shadow: Eh. Shadow Walk. It's okay I guess. Potentially upgrades to Greater Teleport + Greater Plane Shift in Epic levels via Dark Transient.
Retributive Invisibility: Upgrading to Greater Invisibility is nice, although by the time you're at 9th level spells, it feels a little late.

It dries up a bit after lessers, since by that point you can do most of the same stuff with Druid spells, and you have no shortage of spell slots. On the upside, the low-level utility is very real, and you get some great mid-game power spikes.
Well, that's gonna take some doing to boil down. Should be workable though.



its not exactly ACF, so class features would be where I would put them, and attach the link
it is an odd ball tho
Maybe. But, the issue is that it's not just a class feature. It's a variant class feature. Just sticking this in the druid progression seems ridiculous with that in mind. My suspicion is that the ideal option is to create a new tiny section under class features in the intro, or maybe a little header like I have for enhance wild shape in the wild shape section, but that's far from ideal.

Trying to avoid dumbness is understandable.

Polar Bear is only superior in it's swim speed and snow hiding bonus, while it's inferior in that you stick out even more than normal, and of course the DM could be using stricter availability. They're basically the same creature but the conspicuous absence of the less exotic brown bear again seems disorienting.
The only plausible way to avoid the absence is to just attach brown bear to the polar bear entry somehow. The problem is that the polar bear isn't just better than the brown bear. It's strictly better. The wolf versus riding dog animal companion comparison at least has a marginal edge on the wolf's part, but here, any brown bear entry would just read, "Is a polar bear except worse." I don't think I'm ever going to write the, "Brown bears are awesome because they're way more inconspicuous than polar bears somehow," entry, because down that path lies madness.


I think Treant could be useful for budget building destruction. Earthquake only does 100 damage to buildings in an 80' radius and costs an 8th level spell, but a treant can put out 50 or so per round all day. I suppose the normal response is that the fighter should be dealing more than that but treant is how a druid would do it.
But, if you have the kinda time necessary to destroy a building, then you can probably just do marginally worse with a different form. It's not like this is the only form that can punch an object, and spending my noted resources to do that marginally better doesn't seem worth it.


Is that called out strongly in the handbook though? (I could have missed it). Maybe it's a straw argument or condescending, but I expect anyone who's not already up on their optimization to follow simple paths. If it's good for summoning it ought to be good enough for wild shape right? But it's not, so you gotta tell them.
It's definitely not called out explicitly, but I think it's implied within individual entries. So, for example, a dire wolf summons entry says that the creature's defenses are great, while the theoretical dire wolf wild shape entry says that they're bad, and reasons are given in both cases. Maybe I'm crazy to think this, but I just think of the sections as entirely separate. If a thing is in the wild shape section, then it's a good wild shape form unless stated otherwise, and if something isn't in the wild shape section, then it's probably not a good wild shape form, at least compared to existing options. Same goes for summons. I'm inclined to think that most people won't notice the contradiction here to the extent that they'll need an entry telling them why there's not a contradiction.


Availability, by the way, is my issue. I'm using big cat for combat wildshape, because the DM ruled that since my PC has lived in tropical climates all his life he can't know enough about Polar bears, but might have a small chance of one day learning about Brown bears.

Sometimes it might be worth mentioning the almost but not quite as awesome options, if there is a geographical/availability/book difference that might make the more awesome option inaccessible.
I guess, but, y'know, they are still the same creature. I'ma just do the thing where I put the creatures in the same slot and be done with it. Polar bear can be content with having to share an entry.

Edit: And done. Slightly awkward, because I had originally referred to the creature with "polar bear", and because brown bear/polar bear would be annoying, but just calling it a bear seems reasonable enough. Might add the dire wolf thing too. I mean, the entry is right there, fully constructed.

Double-edit: Turns out that this site's default color is slightly gray. Or, I think it is. Weird.

[Tvtyrant]

Impressive work! Good work Eggynack.

[Bullet06320]

Maybe. But, the issue is that it's not just a class feature. It's a variant class feature. Just sticking this in the druid progression seems ridiculous with that in mind. My suspicion is that the ideal option is to create a new tiny section under class features in the intro, or maybe a little header like I have for enhance wild shape in the wild shape section, but that's far from ideal.

like I said, it is an oddball, while its not in the PHB, I think variant class feature fits best, hopefully you can fit it in nicely and not with the heading of "FREE STUFF"

[eggynack]

like I said, it is an oddball, while its not in the PHB, I think variant class feature fits best, hopefully you can fit it in nicely and not with the heading of "FREE STUFF"
Yeah, I added it in last night under the class feature section. Seems to fit in well enough there.

[Bullet06320]

ah, very nice, well done I think, glad I could contribute in some small way

[eggynack]

A race which might bear mentioning is Changeling as with the Racial Emulation feat they can take any combination of racial ACFs and enter racial PrC's when you might not want that race (Seeker of the Misty Isle for example).
I don't think this works the way you'd really want it to. You can only emulate one race at a time, so you wouldn't be able to make use of several separate long term abilities, where those are the ones I think you're usually interested in. You need some benefit over and above just going the base race, or else you're basically just spending a feat to not play an elf.


Edit: Also maybe mention Shifter Braids in the Shifter section. They are from Races of Eberron and the most interesting one is probably the Braid of Spellstrike which for 500gp lets you cast a third level spell or lower on yourself as s swift action when you activate your shifter ability. It can be really handy in a tough spot to cheaply quicken a low level spell.
Maybe so. I have been wanting to expand out that miscellaneous section, because it's really awkwardly short. It is just alright, however, especially when you consider the fact that it's replicating utility a shifter druid already has, in the form of the prepare spell ability. My suspicion is that this item is a bit expensive before that point, and a bit redundant after it, but there might be a sweet spot for it.

ah, very nice, well done I think, glad I could contribute in some small way
Yeah, I'm surprised I forgot about that one. Or, more likely, I just kept on not putting it in because I had no idea where to put it. Anyway, still just plodding along through suggested stuff, approximately maintaining my old rate of one or so entries a day (and I don't think it's dropped below that since I started fielding these). Current problem is figuring out how to categorize magic items, because they don't fall as neatly as the feats did.

[Dread_Head]

I don't think this works the way you'd really want it to. You can only emulate one race at a time, so you wouldn't be able to make use of several separate long term abilities, where those are the ones I think you're usually interested in. You need some benefit over and above just going the base race, or else you're basically just spending a feat to not play an elf.

Maybe so. I have been wanting to expand out that miscellaneous section, because it's really awkwardly short. It is just alright, however, especially when you consider the fact that it's replicating utility a shifter druid already has, in the form of the prepare spell ability. My suspicion is that this item is a bit expensive before that point, and a bit redundant after it, but there might be a sweet spot for it.

You choose whether to take a racial substitution level at the point you level up though. Once you've taken that level there aren't any rules for reverting to normal druid if you no longer qualify so you keep the substitution level. So you can choose either of the half orc and shifter subs at 1 and 4 and take the half orc one at 6th for Augment Summoning (which if you were planning on taking it anyway makes up for the feat spent on racial emulation). Then later if you want to enter Seeker of the Misty Isle you emulate an elf until you level up (note that as you lose PrC benefits if you lose the prereqs you would have to stay an elf to retain the abilities). It's not the most amazing choice but it lets you pick and choose racial subs and can make qualifying for some things easier.

They are a bit expensive for a one use item but can be useful if you really need them. Same as with the others. If your looking at fleshing out the miscellany section then they are probably at least worth mentioning.

[eggynack]

You choose whether to take a racial substitution level at the point you level up though. Once you've taken that level there aren't any rules for reverting to normal druid if you no longer qualify so you keep the substitution level. So you can choose either of the half orc and shifter subs at 1 and 4 and take the half orc one at 6th for Augment Summoning (which if you were planning on taking it anyway makes up for the feat spent on racial emulation). Then later if you want to enter Seeker of the Misty Isle you emulate an elf until you level up (note that as you lose PrC benefits if you lose the prereqs you would have to stay an elf to retain the abilities). It's not the most amazing choice but it lets you pick and choose racial subs and can make qualifying for some things easier.
True. Still, the race itself does very little otherwise, so you'd need to pick up roughly two feats worth of value, maybe more, from these abilities. It looks like you get at least a good amount of the way there though, so it's at least worth consideration.


They are a bit expensive for a one use item but can be useful if you really need them. Same as with the others. If your looking at fleshing out the miscellany section then they are probably at least worth mentioning.

Maybe. The limit on spell type is somewhat... limiting though, as swift castings go. What're you actually casting here? My list under the substitution levels has the bite of the were X spells of the right levels, resist energy, the +4's to ability scores, and vigor. It's not necessarily a list that's massively worth making swift. I could always be missing something from both lists, a spell that's in that level range, self targeting, and which benefits from a swift casting.

[Dread_Head]

True. Still, the race itself does very little otherwise, so you'd need to pick up roughly two feats worth of value, maybe more, from these abilities. It looks like you get at least a good amount of the way there though, so it's at least worth consideration.


Maybe. The limit on spell type is somewhat... limiting though, as swift castings go. What're you actually casting here? My list under the substitution levels has the bite of the were X spells of the right levels, resist energy, the +4's to ability scores, and vigor. It's not necessarily a list that's massively worth making swift. I could always be missing something from both lists, a spell that's in that level range, self targeting, and which benefits from a swift casting.

It's just a suggestion, you mentioned the value of the various racial subs so I thought it was worth suggesting the one ability to combine them. It's not the most optimal choice but it might be a nice option. It also adds some reasonable face abilities for the very earliest levels.

The Bite of the Were-X spells are probably the best options as they are strong defensive spells giving a good bonus to AC amidst other self buffs. Dropping a defensive spell whilst also doing something offensive when you really need both urgently is useful in tough situations. I wouldn't use it regularly but if you have no item in the head slot and some gp to burn it's a useful back up.

[eggynack]

It's just a suggestion, you mentioned the value of the various racial subs so I thought it was worth suggesting the one ability to combine them. It's not the most optimal choice but it might be a nice option. It also adds some reasonable face abilities for the very earliest levels.
Yeah, I can definitely see it. It's a complicated maneuver though, and the challenge is constructing a series of trades that net you a level of value not obtainable otherwise. As you said, shifter and half-orc substitution levels are probably the starting point here, though you are definitely losing some value by not just being a half-orc or shifter. It's a racial choice that's really straddling the line of viability.

The Bite of the Were-X spells are probably the best options as they are strong defensive spells giving a good bonus to AC amidst other self buffs. Dropping a defensive spell whilst also doing something offensive when you really need both urgently is useful in tough situations. I wouldn't use it regularly but if you have no item in the head slot and some gp to burn it's a useful back up.
I suppose wererat does benefit from fast casting. I'll probably just add it under the core assumption that it's not eating much handbook real estate. Can't be as bad as aspect of the werebeast. Been considering adding wild instincts there too, despite its presence among normal spells.

[Troacctid]

Don't forget the 13th level Halfling substitution, as long as we're talking freebies.

[eggynack]

Don't forget the 13th level Halfling substitution, as long as we're talking freebies.
Yeah, makes sense in context. In any case, slowly getting through the stack of suggestions. Added leopard and that shifter item since, I dunno, yesterday.

Edit: Just did the binder gestalt entry. That one took forever. There could probably be more there, like crazy write ups of all the vestiges and how they interact with the druid, but it's a thin line between a binder entry in the gestalt section of a druid handbook, and a vaguely druid oriented mini-handbook on this one gestalt. I think it came out well though. Not sure what's up next, but there's a good amount to choose from.

Double-edit: And that's changeling done. Today was a productive day.

[eggynack]

I added the eagle today, and with that, I think I've cleared away the list of wild shape forms that have been noted. Well, not treants, but I still don't think they're all that good. I suppose that section is open for requests, if there's still anything standing between me and that most elusive thing known as "comprehensiveness". I also edited the warbeast entry to reflect the ambiguity, with input from urpriest, though I may poke at it a bit more when I get a look at the 3.0 PHB. Beyond that, the big things still missing are the entries in the gestalt section, which will probably start with warlock and move up from there in terms of complexity (incarnate and psion being the two big ones), the magic item section reorganization (which is being stymied by the fact that those things remain really tricky to categorize, with a feat-like organization likely having a vast miscellaneous section), the dragon reorganization (because there are a lot of weird passive ability sets on those things, as opposed to my current kinda inaccurate setup), and maybe the addition of the dragonhawk to the animal companion setup.

I think that's pretty much it for stuff that I put on my brain list to address, though there may be some future time where I update the FAQ section, and poke at that kinda unedited planar shepherd mini-handbook. And then, I think I'm basically done. I mean, I'm still adding by suggestion, albeit with the occasional back and forth regarding whether the suggestion merits inclusion, but it's not like there's a massive amount of stuff that I was hoping to include and didn't get a chance to.

[Troacctid]

How about Water Halflings? It's like Strongheart Halfling, except instead of one 1st-level feat, you get two epic feats! (Provided that both of them are Great Constitution.)

[eggynack]

How about Water Halflings? It's like Strongheart Halfling, except instead of one 1st-level feat, you get two epic feats! (Provided that both of them are Great Constitution.)
Y'know, I've often found myself in situations where I had cause to post arbitrary horrible epic feats that I found in the moment, but I haven't given all that much thought to the ability score boosters as members of that group. Ya gotta wonder why they went with +1 instead of +2 on those, but I guess that's just to make it balanced with all of the other awful epic feats.

[eggynack]

I think I'm getting really close to giving up on coming up with any sort of fancy categorization for magic items. I might just toss the things into some provisional cheap/moderate/expensive categories, with some kinda separated money brackets for single use versus permanent items (like, a pearl of speech is cheap for 600 GP, but a use of golden desert honey is either moderate or expensive). I think I'll just use the same old alphabet sort for things within categories, but I guess the main goal is that readers will head to the section that fits their stage of the game, presumably also picking up items from lower stages as well if starting at a high level. Only real problem is the two item collections. I think the trappings of the beast mostly fall into the same category, whatever that category is, but the raiment is kinda split between moderate for the ring and expensive for everything else. I guess I could just toss the ring in moderate, and have the entry in the collection point to that, and do the same for the trappings if I end up grouping the armor higher up.

Should work out well enough, and it might actually end up more reflective of normal play patterns than some more interesting or descriptive categorization would be. After all, you don't necessarily buy the thing that fits your exact plan. You buy what makes sense relative to your wealth on hand, because the cost is probably a bigger factor than whatever synergy bonus you'd pick up otherwise. So, yeah. I'll probably have that up by tomorrow night. Today was an unproductive day, because pretty much everything on my to do list calls for a ridiculous amount of thinking time. Figuring out that I wanted the break off for binder to happen really late took some doing, after all. Also, I forgot that revising the entry for control winds is on my list of possible future things. That spell is so damn complicated.

[Darrin]

I think I'm getting really close to giving up on coming up with any sort of fancy categorization for magic items.

My preference: By slot, ranked by lowest price to highest price. When I'm equipping a character, I start with a couple "must haves" that help reinforce what I want the character to do, and then it's mostly "Fill That Slot! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?149464)" with whatever GP I have left.

[Troacctid]

My preference: By slot, ranked by lowest price to highest price. When I'm equipping a character, I start with a couple "must haves" that help reinforce what I want the character to do, and then it's mostly "Fill That Slot! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?149464)" with whatever GP I have left.

This is my preference as well. I suspect it's a lot of players' preferences, if the Magic Item Compendium's tables are any indication.

[eggynack]

My preference: By slot, ranked by lowest price to highest price. When I'm equipping a character, I start with a couple "must haves" that help reinforce what I want the character to do, and then it's mostly "Fill That Slot! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?149464)" with whatever GP I have left.
My problem with slot organization is that it doesn't necessarily make sense on a druid. Wilding clasps mean that you're often better off, or at least not nearly as bad off as you would be normally, putting multiple abilities on a single item. And, even if that's not in the cards for whatever reason, you still want to minimize slots filled, as opposed to typical maximization strategies, because of that same inconvenience. So, instead of picking up a +2 periapt of wisdom and a ring of counterspells, you may instead go for a +4 periapt or a ring of spell-battle. One counterargument is that a slot organization reflects common play patterns, but I dunno that it's a play pattern that I should be implicitly advocating.

[Troacctid]

But if you're combining items, it's still useful, because you want to combine items that go in the same slot in order to avoid a cost multiplier.

[eggynack]

But if you're combining items, it's still useful, because you want to combine items that go in the same slot in order to avoid a cost multiplier.
I guess, but it still mostly doesn't matter. The savings tend to be pretty close to the additional cost, I think, sometimes going over and sometimes under. The end result is that the incentives are just generally significantly weaker where body slots are concerned, as it's not like the new group slotting incentive fully replaces the old variety incentive. Consider one of my favorite examples where single slotting is concerned, which is a ring of counterspells/ring of the beast. If the ring of counterspells were placed in a separate slot, then you'd end up paying an additional 2,000 GP compared to the same slot version. But, even in that strongest case, you're mostly buying those two items because they're incredibly powerful, even if you have an extra incentive because they're good together. Swap the ring of counterspells with the ring of spell-battle, and suddenly you're paying a 2,000 GP surplus, meaning that that one example's weight in one direction is completely obviated by a weight in the other direction.

All that to say that I don't know that this organization tells you better how to play a druid. Sure, it's probably not harmful, and it may just be a factor that should be considered in both directions at once, but what you're really looking at here is an incredibly simple 4,000 GP counterweight that sometimes pushes setups differently than how they'd normally go. There's also another factor, perhaps an even bigger one, that this plan would wind up splitting a 26 page section into a ton of tiny subsections. I think some of those sections would have something like one item in them too, making said section pointless in every sense. That the likely biggest section, rings, would mostly be grouped together anyway in an alphabetical system, rendering the biggest element in favor of slot categorization meaningless (they're also grouped pretty close cost-wise, so they'd probably hang out together no matter what).

There might be a compromise, however. Basically, it would be the same organization already proposed, cost then alphabet, except with fancy spell-style brackets indicating both cost and slot. Such a system would include the same information in a readable way, without orienting the entire handbook section towards that end goal. Another benefit to this would be that I could ditch the kinda samey intro sentences to items, or at least the part indicating cost and slot, giving some room to maneuver in that sense. Also, I'd get to fit in those fancy little header paragraphs, because a cost organization really gives leave to some broad discussion of the type I already have with spell sections. Makes sense to me, at least.

Edit: I'ma do the bracketing first and then the reorganizing, so don't be struck with sudden alarm/agony when things look substantially different without being all cool with sections and junk.

Double-edit: Arbitrary thought: a section in the introduction about theming, and how different themes pull from different resources, making combination themes especially effective. Main example would probably be the aberration/necromancy druid, with aberration theming pulling from long term feat resources, and necromancy pulling from short term spell and wild shape resources. Might include some other theme combos. Dunno if it's a thing I'm gonna wind up doing, but it sounds cool, cause such combinations are a thing I sometimes advise. The main running idea of it would be that druids have so many resources that devoting yourself to a particular thing often doesn't demand anything like full allocation. Might look up some of my old posts on the topic as reference, cause I remember pulling out some massive multi-paragraph posts about this. Could also have something about specific builds, and if I do, this could maybe slot into the end of the handbook. After all, it makes a lot of sense to read about how to put all this stuff together when you already know about the stuff.

[eggynack]

Well, it took way longer than I thought I would, but magic items now have fancy labels, and should be significantly easier to categorize when I take that step (probably tomorrow). Notably, there were also some changes of various size made to the section. The most minor of these was splitting the amulet of health and the periapt of wisdom, because fitting together all the details of both was getting wildly out of hand, and was probably unnecessary in the first place (and the items each have somewhat revised write ups as a result, which I think are superior to the originals). The biggest was probably the fact that I hadn't actually written the entry for proof against transmutation completely, so now that's no longer the case. My favorite change, fitting my personality, was that I got to fix up the openings of each item to make them less wonky.

Also notable is the fact that the categorization is probably going to get rid of the ioun stones header, because first, it turns out that each of the three listed would almost certainly have a different category, and second, because I don't think the information about these being core whatevers is all that useful outside of the ability score bonus ones. Anyway, don't know what the exact breakdown will be, but my suspicion is that it'll reflect the way items are categorized in the lists of necessary magic items, though I don't know for sure. Should make the whole section a lot more readable, in any case, which I think it is already with this first wave of changes.

[Threadnaught]

Arbitrary thought: a section in the introduction about theming, and how different themes pull from different resources, making combination themes especially effective. Main example would probably be the aberration/necromancy druid, with aberration theming pulling from long term feat resources, and necromancy pulling from short term spell and wild shape resources. Might include some other theme combos.

Thanks for the reminder, Aberrations may help with the theme.


Don't forget to mention that a lot of choices that go towards following a theme are sub-optimal.

[Myou]

This is marvellous work, Eggynack.
I wish we had handbooks this good for the other classes.

[eggynack]

Just finished categorizing all the items. I was going to stick the general pricing underneath each section, but it got really wonky with stuff like the wand of lesser vigor, the item collections, and the periapt of wisdom. Now I just need those little blurby majigs, and I'll finally have a magic item section with meaningful divisions. It's not a perfect setup, but I can modify it a bit if I find that some other organization would work better.



Don't forget to mention that a lot of choices that go towards following a theme are sub-optimal.
Eh, maybe. I dunno that I necessarily want to discourage particular themes, beyond the extent to which I do that already by rating particular aspects of those themes poorly. Like, I may not discourage people from playing a vermin druid, but I'll encourage them to pair vermin up with something, because vermin theming is pretty sporadic where the spell list is concerned.

Edit: Write ups are done and the new entries have been added to all of the tables of contents, so I think that magic items are done for now. Now, maybe back to gestalt, because I've been putting that off.

[Threadnaught]

Eh, maybe. I dunno that I necessarily want to discourage particular themes, beyond the extent to which I do that already by rating particular aspects of those themes poorly. Like, I may not discourage people from playing a vermin druid, but I'll encourage them to pair vermin up with something, because vermin theming is pretty sporadic where the spell list is concerned.

That's exactly what I'm referring to.

It's not that you should encourage people not to create characters based on certain themes, but do tell them that by focusing on one area enough, they'd lose some versatility and it's the versatility that makes the Druid so powerful.

[eggynack]

That's exactly what I'm referring to.

It's not that you should encourage people not to create characters based on certain themes, but do tell them that by focusing on one area enough, they'd lose some versatility and it's the versatility that makes the Druid so powerful.
That search for versatility wouldn't really be the point though. The problem isn't that this vermin character will prepare nothing but summon swarm and giant vermin in all of their slots, converting every first level slot into child of winter summons. The problem is that they'll prepare something completely unrelated in their spell slots, because the options just aren't there. Because there's support for the concept in one of the areas of a druid, but with so many areas to work with, something's inevitably not supported by the books.

The goal in every other section of the handbook is to tell you how to increase versatility. It's right there in the title. If this section were produced, the goal would be to artificially reduce versatility by telling people how to theme in the best way possible. You can get your feats, forms, and even kinda your animal companion to fit your fancy aberration theme (I really like the fhorge as an aberration themed companion), but even with the aid of gatekeeper initiate you're not going to get full theming where spells and summons are concerned. The goal in the aberration theme, after all, was essentially to restrict your build around these guidelines, and restricting in these areas is just about impossible without really broad definitions.

So, you widen the restrictions through the addition of either broadening or an extra theme, and in so doing enable your entire build to fit the restrictions placed before you. Now, all of your long term resources are going towards the aberration stuff, and your short term resources are going towards necromancy stuff as much as possible where they would otherwise just be going towards, I dunno, heart of water. It's a piece of advice that comes up quite a bit, actually, because even though a druid can often devote what would be the full resources of another class to snake theming (which is one that's come up in the past), you're tending to leave the full resources of yet another class with nothing to do but crazy druid stuff.

[Endarire]

What about Martial Stance and Martial Study for your animal companion?

It'd help to spell it as Five Nations so people know it's a sourcebook.

[eggynack]

What about Martial Stance and Martial Study for your animal companion?
Maybe. The big problem is that it's not clear how much volition an animal companion, or at least a normal animal companion, has with regards to the use of their feats. Power attack actually feels a bit on the line to me, but it seems instinctual enough to fit, where maneuvers would be more complex in terms of timing. Stances are more consistent, and thus more logical, but the requirement of the possibly not so useful martial study reduces the viability so much. Still, if I included those, which ones in particular do you think would be worth mention? The other factor limiting the inclusion, after all, is relatively low quantities of knowledge about that system.


It'd help to spell it as Five Nations so people know it's a sourcebook.
Isn't that pretty clear from the context, as it's in the same slot as all the other source books? I think my abbreviations, including that one, are consistent with the Common Acronyms, Abbreviations, and Terms (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?18512-Common-Acronyms-Abbreviations-and-Terms).

Edit: Wrote up the psion. This is another of those classes that I have limited familiarity with (realistically, my knowledge gets significantly less dense the further you get from druid), but my main goal was noting the udoroot, cause that's a really weird combo. Could easily be missing something worth mentioning, but I doubt I mentioned anything I shouldn't have.

[Troacctid]

Anticipatory Strike is another key action economy manipulation power: basically Celerity without the daze. Don't forget Detect Hostile Intent (AKA "Foresight as a 2nd level power") either. Psionic Dimension Door (make sure to use the augmentations from Complete Psionic) and Psionic Teleport are great too. And Telepaths have a noteworthy ACF that grants telepathy.

Oh, and I just noticed, regarding Ninja vs. Monk, while Ninjas get the ability to turn invisible as a swift action, Monks get it as an immediate action, or continuously if you take Dark Moon Disciple 7, so, eh.

[eggynack]

Anticipatory Strike is another key action economy manipulation power: basically Celerity without the daze. Don't forget Detect Hostile Intent (AKA "Foresight as a 2nd level power") either. Psionic Dimension Door (make sure to use the augmentations from Complete Psionic) and Psionic Teleport are great too. And Telepaths have a noteworthy ACF that grants telepathy.
I kinda have the teleports under a teleportation umbrella, though it's possible I shouldn't. Detect hostile intent is some admittedly cool beans. It's a really interesting facet of this sorta gestalt that you can invest into more situational or resource intensive thing, because you have so much versatility and so many resources as a baseline.


Oh, and I just noticed, regarding Ninja vs. Monk, while Ninjas get the ability to turn invisible as a swift action, Monks get it as an immediate action, or continuously if you take Dark Moon Disciple 7, so, eh.
Yeah, should probably include that. Knew I was missing some sorta ACF gestalt thing somewhere. Gotta say, this is just about the most troublesome section of anything ever, with the need to condense ludicrous amounts of information into an ideally tiny amount of space coming second to the need for large quantities of research into unfamiliar things in terms of difficulty. At least I have most of these things done. Once I get warlock and incarnate down, and maybe warblade, I think that any subsequent additions are going to be relatively easy.

One interesting thing about the process underlying this handbook was that there was a good chunk of entries constructed out of nothing but the desire to not write some other troublesome entry. I'd be staring down the barrel of, say, the planar binding entry under nightbringer intiate (crazy troublesome cross referencing the list of mabar creatures with a bunch of separate books that actually contain those creatures), and would have to put something out that day, and would just go into arbitrary research mode, or write up something somewhat frivolous and easy like the courtier's obi. Point being, I'm half inclined to just run away from this stuff for a bit and do that weird treant write up, because it'd be really frigging easy to do that treant write up. Less of a thing now, cause I stopped doing the strict daily entry thing after I submitted, but the urge to treant remains.

[eggynack]

Well, that was a headache and a half, but the monk section is now three times as long to reflect the broad array of ACF's available. There are other ACF's, of course, but I think those are the highlights. I suspect, incidentally, that I need to revise my ratings on that section a bit. It feels off that I have psion at black and both factotum and unarmed swordsage at blue. Might take some thinking. Section's getting respectably lengthy at this point, at least.

[Endarire]

Martial Stance/Martial Study: Mentioning these feats as "Ask your GM" territory seems reasonable. If a dog can be trained to carry a rider, or to trip, it seems like a logical extension that such an animal companion can be trained to use maneuver X or stance Y when doing so seems wise.

Martial Stance: Martial Spirit is a favorite, granting HP per hit to an ally within 30' including the user.

Martial Study: White Raven Tactics is a standout here. Pretty much any maneuver (offensive, defensive, or utility) good for a melee attacker that doesn't rely on a skill check would work well on an animal companion.

[eggynack]

Martial Stance/Martial Study: Mentioning these feats as "Ask your GM" territory seems reasonable. If a dog can be trained to carry a rider, or to trip, it seems like a logical extension that such an animal companion can be trained to use maneuver X or stance Y when doing so seems wise.
I think there's a definite difference between being a mount or tripper and using maneuvers. The animal version of tripping tends to be that you just attack and get an automatic trip attempt, compared to the more active improved trip version, and acting as a mount also involves essentially no decision making. That's the key difference between maneuvers and those things, that you necessarily have to make a decision. You can't even make a decision the same way every time, because the maneuver gets used up, which is as opposed to power attack which can be set at the same number every time if you want.

There's definitely no way to call on your companion to do this, either, so you'd presumably be setting it up so that, I dunno, they use a maneuver as their first attack action in any given combat? Even that seems problematic, and it turns off a lot of potential utility. Like, you mention WRT below, and I agree that it's a good maneuver, but is it still good if used without any sort of thought? Setting an arbitrary ally to a rather arbitrary slot in the initiative doesn't do much for you. It's a weird one, in any case, and probably lies somewhere between, "No, this just doesn't work," and your cited, "Ask your DM," and I'd think inclusion would rely on it falling more into asking range.


Martial Stance: Martial Spirit is a favorite, granting HP per hit to an ally within 30' including the user.

Martial Study: White Raven Tactics is a standout here. Pretty much any maneuver (offensive, defensive, or utility) good for a melee attacker that doesn't rely on a skill check would work well on an animal companion.
Yeah, those are pretty good, WRT especially (though dependent on it working in a way different from how I've noted above).

[Troacctid]

Celestial companions are intelligent, though, so they could unambiguously initiate maneuvers.

Bolstering Voice is another good stance. Gives everyone a bonus to Will saves and fills the prerequisite for White Raven Tactics.

[eggynack]

Celestial companions are intelligent, though, so they could unambiguously initiate maneuvers.
Definitely the case. Might include it and put down the assumption that you're gaining companion intelligence by some method.

[Svata]

This is nothing short of a work of art. Also, with the title, I keep having a Highlander reference of a conversation going through my head.

Wizard: I know everything!
Druid: I am everything!

[Deophaun]

Great resource!

Quick trick that's missing: Because fast healing works exactly like natural healing, healthful rest doubles it as well. Couple that with Aberration Wild Shape, enhance wild shape, and the proper form, and the druid can become a ridiculous damage sponge.

[Troacctid]

For items, Circlet of Mages (MIC) is 5000 gp and allows you to retain spell slots by expending charges (1 spell level per charge, 3 charges/day). You also get +2 to Concentration. It's kind of like a better version of a Pearl of Power III at half the price. Downside is you have to use it at the time of casting, whereas a Pearl of Power can be used later.

I'm curious, are there any relics that are any good? Druids can power them, after all.

[eggynack]

For items, Circlet of Mages (MIC) is 5000 gp and allows you to retain spell slots by expending charges (1 spell level per charge, 3 charges/day). You also get +2 to Concentration. It's kind of like a better version of a Pearl of Power III at half the price. Downside is you have to use it at the time of casting, whereas a Pearl of Power can be used later.
Seems interesting. There doesn't seem to be much utility to any other mode compared to the pearl, and I tend to think the first level pearl is the most cost efficient (cause it's cheap as hell), but I think there're some 3rd's you'd wanna double cast.


I'm curious, are there any relics that are any good? Druids can power them, after all.
I haven't seen any, but they could plausibly exist. To be honest, while I think my item section covers most of the ground it should, I've never done a book by book survey of every item option like I did for spells and forms.

[Troacctid]

I think Abolisher may be a notable prestige class for giving you back wild shape if you traded it away for something else. The "swift and deadly hunter" UA variant would be the prime example, as not only do you trade away wild shape, you also gain Track, so you don't need to worry about the feat tax. And due to the wording of the ability, Druid levels count towards your wild shape HD cap even if they weren't actually granting you wild shape, so you're not even behind, aside from having to delay Natural Spell until 9th level.

[eggynack]

I think Abolisher may be a notable prestige class for giving you back wild shape if you traded it away for something else. The "swift and deadly hunter" UA variant would be the prime example, as not only do you trade away wild shape, you also gain Track, so you don't need to worry about the feat tax. And due to the wording of the ability, Druid levels count towards your wild shape HD cap even if they weren't actually granting you wild shape, so you're not even behind, aside from having to delay Natural Spell until 9th level.
It seems doubtful that this setup would be worth a caster level. If the question were strictly one of wild shape gained for caster level lost, then that'd be one thing, but what you're really getting here is some rather mediocre ACF. Then you account for the feat loss, which is annoying, and the medium animal limit on forms, which is bonus annoying, and you enter into a situation where what you're losing may be better than the ACF, even if you ignore the CL loss. I'm also not entirely sure that the PrC interacts with druid as you've described. You're adding one to your effective druid level for this purpose, but it seems to me that your effective druid level for this purpose is zero if you've traded away wild shape.

So, I don't think it's a plausible addition, especially when you consider the obvious comparison point, lion of talisid. You enter the classes at the same time, and lose a feat in both cases, but where abolisher ditches a caster level and form variety, lion of talisid merely delays picking up wild shape for two levels, and gives nearly full wild shape power for your trouble. Seems like the superior option in the vast majority of cases.

[Troacctid]

Hey, how come you don't have the level marked down for some of the aberration forms? It's pretty relevant that if you're 5th level, you can turn into a Grell, but not a Mimic. Some builds do take the feat at 5th or 6th.

[eggynack]

Hey, how come you don't have the level marked down for some of the aberration forms? It's pretty relevant that if you're 5th level, you can turn into a Grell, but not a Mimic. Some builds do take the feat at 5th or 6th.
I mostly just assumed 9th as the entry point, cause natural spell is a thing, and one vital to the workings of aberration wild shape. I suppose I could do up the missing entries though.

[Deophaun]

I mostly just assumed 9th as the entry point, cause natural spell is a thing, and one vital to the workings of aberration wild shape.

I'm not sure if it is vital. If you're content with a Grell (which is a good candidate to always be in), I believe RAW you can cast without issue. After all, the Grell Philsopher in LoM casts spells just fine without anything special. Well, maybe Grell Alchemy, fluff-wise.

[eggynack]

I'm not sure if it is vital. If you're content with a Grell (which is a good candidate to always be in), I believe RAW you can cast without issue. After all, the Grell Philsopher in LoM casts spells just fine without anything special. Well, maybe Grell Alchemy, fluff-wise.
I guess it's halfway plausible that you could get the odd form, but I figure there's going to be at least some discrepancy in terms of what DM's allow casting on which forms. I don't think it's enough for the form to be capable of casting intrinsically, as, to quote alternate form, "It must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components." It leaves you with a tricky pool of usable forms, and, of course, that pool is going to be a lot less viable than the broader aberration pool. Also notable is the fact that, in the end, it doesn't make much difference whether grell is available at 5th or 6th, because it's only viable at 7th, when you get enhance wild shape, a thing true for most aberration forms.

Still, despite that, your point is well taken. Aberration wild shape, while perhaps even more reliant on casting for usefulness than traditional wild shape, has a somewhat reduced need for natural spell. Not a significantly reduced one, because I'm not all that convinced that aberration wild shape without natural spell is better than natural spell without aberration wild shape, but it at least makes that timing halfway viable. I'll probably do that at some point, though to be honest, my editing rate has slowed down a lot.

[Troacctid]

There are definitely characters that would want to take Aberration Wild Shape before Druid 9.


If you multiclass at all, even just for a dip into Divine Oracle or Holt Warden or whatever, you could take Aberration Wild Shape at 9th but have a lower effective level for wild shape.
If you become a dragonborn at 5th level or higher, some builds can swap out feats in order to get both Natural Spell and Aberration Wild Shape at the same time.
3.PF games may use the Pathfinder feat progression, resulting in you getting Natural Spell at 5th and Aberration Wild Shape at 7th.
Some DMs ban Natural Spell (I've seen such a ban talked about on these forums before), which would mean it doesn't eat up your feat slot at 6th.

Also, speaking of dragonborn, it actually is still pretty good for a human or strongheart halfling because of the Wasteland Druid thing. Dragonborn human is probably better than silverbrow human, for example, since you get favorable ability score adjustments and the dragonborn abilities seem better than the feather fall SLA. And if you didn't start as a human or strongheart halfling, it seems worth noting that the transformation allows you to swap out Sandskimmer for Dragon Wings or Dragon Tail--pretty solid as trades go.

It's also a really good choice for the half-orc builds. A frostblood half-orc can take Strong Stomach at 1st level, grab a bonus feat of their choice via the Iron Constitution ACF at 4th (due to having Strong Stomach already), and then become a dragonborn later, losing the prerequisite for Strong Stomach and allowing them to swap it for any other feat. End result, you got to bank your 1st level feat for later (allowing you to get both Natural Spell and another wild shape feat at 6th, for instance), and you traded Resist Nature's Lure for a bonus feat of your choice (which is a great trade). And if flaws are allowed, you can use them to pick up Diehard or something to bank those feat slots for later, too.

[eggynack]

Just did up the level labeling on aberrations over 5th. Not all that sure on the dragonborn setup though. You're not getting heat endurance for free, as it requires both pushing yourself into the marginally downgrade inducing wasteland druid, and resist nature's lure isn't nothing (especially if you were going to trade it for another thing that's better than heat endurance otherwise). It's not just a straight across trade of feather fall for dragonborn stuff as a result. Meanwhile, the half-orc thing is kinda interesting, especially given the presence of the substitution levels. Might be worth some thinkery.

[Troacctid]

With Wasteland Druid, you're presumably trading out Sandskimmer, not Heat Endurance, since it's a lower-value feature. Although you could trade out Resist Nature's Lure via Strong Stomach, if you prefer.

[eggynack]

With Wasteland Druid, you're presumably trading out Sandskimmer, not Heat Endurance, since it's a lower-value feature. Although you could trade out Resist Nature's Lure via Strong Stomach, if you prefer.
True. Still, the overall impact isn't too far off. After all, you actually can't trade resist nature's lure, because you have heat endurance instead, due to the fact that the trades are all or nothing. In the context of that all or nothing nature, the strong stomach thing seems a bit closer to viability.

[Troacctid]

To be clear, I meant that if all-or-nothing is a concern, a non-Wasteland Druid can trade out the Strong Stomach feat instead of taking the Wasteland variant. That way it's only Resist Nature's Lure that you're swapping out (and you even keep the +2 to saves against disease).

I'm pretty sure the Wasteland Druid can still trade out Heat Endurance by taking Fangshields or Planar substitution levels, FWIW.

[Tundralord]

Well, I have finished reading your guide. Uff! What a encyclopedia!

However, there are little absences here and there along the sections. I'm equally surprised for finding no citation to the spell coral growth (Shining South), that is a shapeable and incredible wall for his level, and is permanent; or the five spells per round casting of the nagahydra in the aberration wild shape section; or for the great evil PrCs that are Durthan (UE), certainly bad than Hathran, but likely with place magic, or Tainted sorcerer (UA), specially with the synergy of the later with the wild reaper variant. The Beastfriend collar (Dragon Mag. #356 p. 68), one of my favorite druidic magic items, may deserve a mention in his section, both for his extended share spells effect or for the immediate action thing. Also there are little mistakes, like the dispelling chord, that is a "torso" item, not "shoulders".

Having said this, what remains is little discrepancies in opinion: for example, I love the sidhe scholar variant for having empty the two final levels like the 3.0 druid, wich is and invitation for almost-free multiclassing for the common little price of a point or two of BAB. I also find of utility the Planar familiar spell (spellbook archive web enhancement) as a method, not without ambiguity, for giving to animal companions some intelligence, and maybe a bit of cheese. How works the linked minds effect of the axiomatic creatures (Planar Handbook) with a dire tortoise's lightning strike? I don't know, I don't know... :smallbiggrin: (Other two spells in the same page, elemental familiar and animate dead familiar, can be interesting for a Druid with the Cityscape urban companion class feature, but the XP cost hurts).

Finally, I Propose you to make two mini-sections in your guide:

First, one section explaining how to equip an animal companions/wild shaped druids, including all the options in dragon 349, but also claw extenders (dragon 334), mouthpick weapons (LoM), the relative (in)utility of the wild armor and beatskin armor, maybe fanged rings in any of his two versions, the mandatory versus between Amulet of Mighty fists and necklace of natural weapons and, to follow with savage species, the incredible brokenness of the arms of the naga.

Second, a brief text listing the (almost-all ambiguous) ways for obtaining intelligent companions, and the limits of the animal intelligence. It’s not credible that a fleshraker shapechanged into a hive mother can hover and make ray attacks without feeling uncomfortable, and if you have reach shapechange, you will want to share it with your companion.

The common point among the two previous recommendations is that always they have been mechanically ambiguous or problematic, but at the same time they have been always a common place in discussions about the druids too, and reappear over and over. They are the kind of things that really needs a FAQ.

[eggynack]

However, there are little absences here and there along the sections. I'm equally surprised for finding no citation to the spell coral growth (Shining South), that is a shapeable and incredible wall for his level, and is permanent;
That spell requires that the coral be living and submerged, which makes the spell heavily environmentally limited. I could buy it as a situational but powerful aquatic spell, though I'm not sure what the distribution of coral underwater is offhand. I guess you could carry around some weird coral container that has living and submerged coral, such that you can use the spell on land, but I don't know what the feasibility of that looks like.


Or the five spells per round casting of the nagahydra in the aberration wild shape section;
That's a thing specific to their personal casting. I don't think it's an ability you get, or that you can get, through wild shape.


Or for the great evil PrCs that are Durthan (UE), certainly bad than Hathran, but likely with place magic
I don't really like that you need two types of casting for that one, especially cause you only advance one. Losing CL is a problematic thing.


or Tainted sorcerer (UA)
It seems worse for druids than for most, cause the nature of the class is that you're risking the loss of class features, but it's probably strong enough in spite of that to warrant mention.

The Beastfriend collar (Dragon Mag. #356 p. 68), one of my favorite druidic magic items, may deserve a mention in his section, both for his extended share spells effect or for the immediate action thing.
Yeah, that one is really cool. Reads a lot like an item version of companion spellbond, at least at higher levels, and the fact that you get repeated immediate action teleportation, even with narrow focus, is quite useful. Probably tossing that in, though the price is very high.

Also there are little mistakes, like the dispelling chord, that is a "torso" item, not "shoulders".
Yep. Don't know how that happened.

Having said this, what remains is little discrepancies in opinion: for example, I love the sidhe scholar variant for having empty the two final levels like the 3.0 druid, wich is and invitation for almost-free multiclassing for the common little price of a point or two of BAB.
I kinda think the standard druid is like that too. You're not losing much at all by skipping huge elemental forms. Druid mostly ends at 17 or so, but optimization becomes quite a bit less relevant once you have 9th's.


I also find of utility the Planar familiar spell (spellbook archive web enhancement) as a method, not without ambiguity, for giving to animal companions some intelligence, and maybe a bit of cheese. How works the linked minds effect of the axiomatic creatures (Planar Handbook) with a dire tortoise's lightning strike? I don't know, I don't know... :smallbiggrin: (Other two spells in the same page, elemental familiar and animate dead familiar, can be interesting for a Druid with the Cityscape urban companion class feature, but the XP cost hurts).
Guess it could see some mention somewhere, but it not being on the druid list limits where that somewhere could be. I suppose you'd want contemplative or something.


First, one section explaining how to equip an animal companions/wild shaped druids, including all the options in dragon 349, but also claw extenders (dragon 334), mouthpick weapons (LoM), the relative (in)utility of the wild armor and beatskin armor, maybe fanged rings in any of his two versions, the mandatory versus between Amulet of Mighty fists and necklace of natural weapons and, to follow with savage species, the incredible brokenness of the arms of the naga.
My thoughts on those sorts of items for wild shape'd druids are pretty similar to my thoughts on melee feats for druids, in that I don't think they're all that useful. Could be worth mentioning in the context of the animal companion though, as you said. Druids already have an item section, and it's the item section. However, there could feasibly be a section that corresponds to the already existent animal companion feat section.

Second, a brief text listing the (almost-all ambiguous) ways for obtaining intelligent companions, and the limits of the animal intelligence. It’s not credible that a fleshraker shapechanged into a hive mother can hover and make ray attacks without feeling uncomfortable, and if you have reach shapechange, you will want to share it with your companion.
It's an interesting idea, more because it'd give more room to discussing the potential advantages of intelligent companions, like the whole ToB thing that came up which I still haven't used. Worth thinking about, at least.


The common point among the two previous recommendations is that always they have been mechanically ambiguous or problematic, but at the same time they have been always a common place in discussions about the druids too, and reappear over and over. They are the kind of things that really needs a FAQ.
I actually disagree that my listed methods for companion intelligence are ambiguous. The closest to ambiguous is the watchspider, but even that doesn't seem to have any sort of rules gap.

[Leon]

Eh, like every other "handbook" out there, possibly useful along as you take it all with a pinch of salt.

[rrwoods]

You have Power Attack as a "red" feat for Animal Companions and a reasonable explanation: That the 1-to-1 ratio the animal gets is often actively bad because the damage output would be higher if it didn't power attack.

However, some attacks arguably should get the 1-to-2 ratio. If you check a Dire Wolf's bite attack, for example, the damage bonus is +10 -- with a strength score of 25 which makes a bonus of +7. The extra +3 is because the attack is "two-handed" (+7 times 1.5 rounded down = +10).

[Troacctid]

You have Power Attack as a "red" feat for Animal Companions and a reasonable explanation: That the 1-to-1 ratio the animal gets is often actively bad because the damage output would be higher if it didn't power attack.

However, some attacks arguably should get the 1-to-2 ratio. If you check a Dire Wolf's bite attack, for example, the damage bonus is +10 -- with a strength score of 25 which makes a bonus of +7. The extra +3 is because the attack is "two-handed" (+7 times 1.5 rounded down = +10).

I don't think that's arguable. The Strength modifier doesn't matter for Power Attack; that clause is only in Pathfinder. In 3.5, you get the 2-to-1 ratio with two-handed weapons or one-handed weapons wielded in both hands. Natural weapons are neither.

[eggynack]

You have Power Attack as a "red" feat for Animal Companions and a reasonable explanation: That the 1-to-1 ratio the animal gets is often actively bad because the damage output would be higher if it didn't power attack.

However, some attacks arguably should get the 1-to-2 ratio. If you check a Dire Wolf's bite attack, for example, the damage bonus is +10 -- with a strength score of 25 which makes a bonus of +7. The extra +3 is because the attack is "two-handed" (+7 times 1.5 rounded down = +10).
Some attacks do have strength bonuses inconsistent with standard one-handed attacks. However, I don't think that strictly implies that they get a better power attack ratio, or indeed implies that at all. Power attack has a static behavior under most circumstances, the 1:1, and then an exception based behavior under specific circumstances, that being a weapon wielded in two hands. A weapon that kinda acts like a two handed weapon in this one sense isn't necessarily a two handed weapon, and in this case we can clearly see that it is not one because it's being wielded in no hands. It would theoretically make sense for power attack to operate in the way you've described, but I don't think the reading reflects the rules as they exist.

[Troacctid]

Although speaking of animal companion feats, Draconic Aura should be worth a mention as a good way to spread the animal companion's feats around the whole party. Combine with Dragontouched to improve the bonus.

[rrwoods]

Some attacks do have strength bonuses inconsistent with standard one-handed attacks. However, I don't think that strictly implies that they get a better power attack ratio, or indeed implies that at all. Power attack has a static behavior under most circumstances, the 1:1, and then an exception based behavior under specific circumstances, that being a weapon wielded in two hands. A weapon that kinda acts like a two handed weapon in this one sense isn't necessarily a two handed weapon, and in this case we can clearly see that it is not one because it's being wielded in no hands. It would theoretically make sense for power attack to operate in the way you've described, but I don't think the reading reflects the rules as they exist.
Under a strict reading you're right, and I did have to do the math to figure out how the damage bonus might be calculated. There's nothing in the monster entry explicitly saying to treat the attack as two handed.

However I will note that it's not simply "inconsistent with standard one-handed attacks". Every monster damage bonus I've seen has either been .5 times strength, 1 times strength, or 1.5 times strength. What that implies or doesn't imply is up to the group playing -- I do suspect most will say it implies nothing. Still think it's worth pointing out.

[eggynack]

Although speaking of animal companion feats, Draconic Aura should be worth a mention as a good way to spread the animal companion's feats around the whole party. Combine with Dragontouched to improve the bonus.
I do enjoy a good animal companion aura, and it might be low choice enough to make sense with a low intelligence creature.

Under a strict reading you're right, and I did have to do the math to figure out how the damage bonus might be calculated. There's nothing in the monster entry explicitly saying to treat the attack as two handed.

However I will note that it's not simply "inconsistent with standard one-handed attacks". Every monster damage bonus I've seen has either been .5 times strength, 1 times strength, or 1.5 times strength. What that implies or doesn't imply is up to the group playing -- I do suspect most will say it implies nothing. Still think it's worth pointing out.
Monsters are sometimes kinda weird, I gotta admit. Like, why does the smilodon have the sorts of iteratives granted by multiattack without the feat or something like it? Or, alternatively, where does that AC bonus on the will-o'-wisp come from, and is that a thing you get with wild shape? Weird stuff.

[Deophaun]

I went and I looked through MMIII, and I found the Mivilorn, which has a bite attack and Power Attack, and the description states that it takes a -15 penalty through PA for an additional +15 damage. The damage it deals only works if it also gets 1.5x Str on its bite.

So, it seems RAI natural attacks that get 1.5x Str are not supposed to get double PA damage.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I went and I looked through MMIII, and I found the Mivilorn, which has a bite attack and Power Attack, and the description states that it takes a -15 penalty through PA for an additional +15 damage. The damage it deals only works if it also gets 1.5x Str on its bite.

So, it seems RAI natural attacks that get 1.5x Str are not supposed to get double PA damage.

Just because monsters with a single bite attack get 1.5x Str doesn't mean they wield their natural weapons with two hands. If you want that get the Fangshields sub level that lets you wildshape hands and wield a two handed weapon.

One thing i'm a bit fuzzy on are Mouthpick weapons. The example weapons are all twohanded. So does a Mouthpick weapon always get 1,5x Str? Only when the monster has no other attacks? What about PA and combat maneuvers? What about monsters with more than one bite attack? Can you wield 3 Mouthpick Greatswords and get 1,5x Str and 2x PA damage on all of them?

You can get a similar bonus to PA on your natural attacks with the Dread Carapace soulmeld. It does add +2 to bite attacks per essentia, but it's sadly limited by your essentia capacity. Obviously only worth spending a feat on if you have essentia from somewhere.

[Darrin]

That spell requires that the coral be living and submerged, which makes the spell heavily environmentally limited. I could buy it as a situational but powerful aquatic spell, though I'm not sure what the distribution of coral underwater is offhand. I guess you could carry around some weird coral container that has living and submerged coral, such that you can use the spell on land, but I don't know what the feasibility of that looks like.


I've looked at this spell before, and fiddled around with circumventing the environmental requirement. The spell description is explicit that the amount of coral to start with can be very small. "Submerged" is not a defined game term, so going just by the dictionary definition any living coral "below the surface of an area of water" should suffice. Thus, glass vials filled with seawater and a small quantity of coral should work, and these essentially become an additional material component for the spell. Hopefully you'll get a DM handwave there to treat it as an actual material component, so it's still a free action to grab it, otherwise then you may be trying to figure out how to get an extra move action to draw the vial from your pack or manipulate an object.

The other sticking point would be after a few days, without a reliable source of food, the coral would no longer be living. Preserving living organisms is a bit tricky... Unguent of Timelessness only works on once-living material, as does Angriz's Chest. Shrink item or Glove of Storing/Master Strategist would work, but that's not a spell druids have easy access to, and using the glove to carry around one spell component would interfere with using it for anything else. Storing the coral with some air plants (Stormwrack) would help keep the water oxygenated, but presumably the coral would still need to eat something (maybe grind up a goodberry and drop it in?), and then the air plants need to be "well lit", so toss in a liquid sunlight capsule (Complete Scoundrel), but now you're trying to keep an entire aquatic ecosystem alive (how is it we have owl bears, sea lions, and duck bunnies in D&D but no sea monkeys?).

Two other examples of "living coral" as magic items:

Living Coral armor (16,000 GP, Stormwrack), a reskinned version of the Moon Ivy armor from A&EG, but the designers didn't bother to fix any of the stupidity issues of the original. I'm not sure if you can break off pieces of this, so using coral growth probably means you're attached to the coral structure until nightfall, which doesn't sound like a popular combat strategy.

Dukar Hand Coral (1,600 GP, Champions of Valor), which lives under your skin. Which means the coral growth bursts out from... ugh. Yes, presumably you'd regenerate the damage but the mental image is decidedly unpleasant. On the other hand... 25 cubic feet per spell level of magic regeneration coral that sells for 1600 GP for less than an ounce would be an interesting experiment in economics.

The easiest solution: carry around some Chaos Flasks (100 GP, Planar Handbook). These can be explicitly used to create living creatures, which would include coral. It's a free action to use, and requires a DC 13 Wisdom check (which isn't exactly a dump stat for druids).

[Deophaun]

Just because monsters with a single bite attack get 1.5x Str doesn't mean they wield their natural weapons with two hands.
Very good. You have divined the reason why I bothered to look at a monster stat block to see how the designers implemented PA in those situations.

[Flickerdart]

Eggy: is there any part of this that would be useful for my transmogrifist handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?450678-Be-the-Wizard-Who-Did-It-Master-Transmogrifist-Handbook)? I'm assuming that the wildshape part makes reference to useful Ex qualities thanks to enhance wild shape, and there are critters with insane natural weapon routines hidden somewhere. Is there anything else that might be useful, in that document or others?

[eggynack]

Eggy: is there any part of this that would be useful for my transmogrifist handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?450678-Be-the-Wizard-Who-Did-It-Master-Transmogrifist-Handbook)? I'm assuming that the wildshape part makes reference to useful Ex qualities thanks to enhance wild shape, and there are critters with insane natural weapon routines hidden somewhere. Is there anything else that might be useful, in that document or others?
Most of my good research along those lines pop up in relation to aberrations, and maybe plants. Animals are kinda boring, both in terms of enhance and massed natural weapons. Can't say as I know what specifically would be useful in non-druidic contexts, but there's certainly a wide swath of stuff covered, so such things are plausible.

[Endarire]

For Wild Shape purposes, what about Monster Manual III's topiary guardians?

For Aberration Wild Shape forms, what about these?

-Choker (dual actions as a Supernatural ability)

-Beholder (uber Supernatural abilities)

[Troacctid]

Also teamwork benefits (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4862.0;msg=68838) are probably at least a little useful in regards to animal companion optimization.

[Snowbluff]

I suggest for Dragon Wild Shape the Oceanus Dragon, since their alternative breath weapon is a Dazing breath. Good for getting around immunities.

Also, the DCs of your breath weapons are based on your stats, not fixed. :smalltongue:

[eggynack]

For Wild Shape purposes, what about Monster Manual III's topiary guardians?
It's not strictly stated, but topiary guardian seems to be a template to me, given that you have these strictly followed construction guidelines.


-Choker (dual actions as a Supernatural ability)

-Beholder (uber Supernatural abilities)
I've been tending away from the Su stuff, cause I don't feel it's necessary when Ex abilities are right there. For these two in particular, choker feels a lot like a more expensive nilshai, and the beholder actually is mentioned in the context of assume supernatural ability.

Also teamwork benefits (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4862.0;msg=68838) are probably at least a little useful in regards to animal companion optimization.
Yeah, those seem kinda interesting. Not especially high in scale, but at least a couple seem like freebies.

Edit:
I suggest for Dragon Wild Shape the Oceanus Dragon, since their alternative breath weapon is a Dazing breath. Good for getting around immunities.

Also, the DCs of your breath weapons are based on your stats, not fixed. :smalltongue:
On the latter point, I think that may actually be a broader problem. Notably, I think the only relevant altered stat is HD, because the stat in question is held to the form, but the HD thing is indeed an important point. Oceanus is interesting, meanwhile, but figuring out where it falls on the big comparison test could take a bit. Still do need to figure out the overall organization of that section, cause I've been super lazy on that point.

[Snowbluff]

Edit:
On the latter point, I think that may actually be a broader problem. Notably, I think the only relevant altered stat is HD, because the stat in question is held to the form, but the HD thing is indeed an important point. Oceanus is interesting, meanwhile, but figuring out where it falls on the big comparison test could take a bit. Still do need to figure out the overall organization of that section, cause I've been super lazy on that point.

Yeah, I would strong suggest getting a wilding clasp for a Constitution and maybe Ability focus: Breath Weapon if you're really in love with dragon forms.

As for the handbook layout, maybe it would be helpful to lay out the abilities of the weird forms like so:

Oceanus Dragon
Breath Weapon: Lightning or Daze
Abilities: Swim speed, waterbreathing/Amphibious, Smite Evil,

[eggynack]

As for the handbook layout, maybe it would be helpful to lay out the abilities of the weird forms like so:

Oceanus Dragon
Breath Weapon: Lightning or Daze
Abilities: Swim speed, waterbreathing/Amphibious, Smite Evil,
Not really what I mean. Dragons come in these clumps with static ability sets, and I think my current organization has some things as true dragons that really aren't, and which instead have different abilities, sometimes better ones. Think that little lung dragon section, except also with planar dragons, and maybe gem dragons (though I think sapphire is by far the best), and maybe a couple others.

[Snowbluff]

Not really what I mean. Dragons come in these clumps with static ability sets, and I think my current organization has some things as true dragons that really aren't, and which instead have different abilities, sometimes better ones. Think that little lung dragon section, except also with planar dragons, and maybe gem dragons (though I think sapphire is by far the best), and maybe a couple others.

Oh okay.

I'd like to point out crystal dragons. They blind on a reflex save. That's nice, since a lot of monsters are far worse reflex saves than others.

[eggynack]

Oh okay.

I'd like to point out crystal dragons. They blind on a reflex save. That's nice, since a lot of monsters are far worse reflex saves than others.
Y'know, I would say that that's irrelevant compared to all the stuff a sapphire dragon has, but just the fact that two is enough to make a fancy category might be enough to justify it. The other possibility is just tossing sapphire dragons into the miscellaneous category, where the abilities are defined within the creature itself.

[Snowbluff]

Y'know, I would say that that's irrelevant compared to all the stuff a sapphire dragon has, but just the fact that two is enough to make a fancy category might be enough to justify it. The other possibility is just tossing sapphire dragons into the miscellaneous category, where the abilities are defined within the creature itself.

I'll have to check what sapphire dragon has again.

[eggynack]

I'll have to check what sapphire dragon has again.
Sense psychoportation mostly. 24 AC doesn't hurt either.

[Endarire]

"Dragon" 319, page 34 (May, 2004) has Dark Sun animal companions. None seem better than the Fleshraker, but they may be worth considering if you're a no-go on Fleshy the Raker.

[eggynack]

"Dragon" 319, page 34 (May, 2004) has Dark Sun animal companions. None seem better than the Fleshraker, but they may be worth considering if you're a no-go on Fleshy the Raker.
Oh, wow, that's like a full on variant rather than a new set of companions, given that it looks like you have to choose between that list and the other one. Time for some weird dragon/dungeon cross-referencing.

Separately, as long as I'm here, I've added the spell wind at back and altered ethergaunt form to reflect the potential ambiguity regarding its vision ability.

Edit: Few arbitrary notes, reflective of the beginnings of my variant read through. First, what's the legality/acceptance of dungeon stuff, and critically, what's the acceptance of dungeon stuff when a source you're presumably using directly references it? Second, any opinions on what this variant should be called? I'm thinking dark sun druid or dark sun companion. Third, holy crap the kank seems insane. Yeah, you lose the riding dog's trip, but that poison's either about as good or better, and the rest just seems way better. Fourth, where the hell is the yallix? Can't see it anywhere. So, yeah, that's where I am after starting companions. Hopefully the rest will be as interesting.

Double-edit: Can't seem to find a ton of these creatures.

Final-edit: Found them. They're in Dungeon 111. Weird that they wouldn't put that info in dragon.

[Endarire]

Dark Sun Companions are definitely accurate descriptions.

[eggynack]

Well, that took awhile. Dark Sun companion is now hanging out in the variant section, being all long and junk. That's one weird variant right there.

[Norin]

Any info on plant companion and how to best utilize them?

(dragon magazine #357)

If you already have a section on it, i must have missed it.

[eggynack]

Any info on plant companion and how to best utilize them?

(dragon magazine #357)

If you already have a section on it, i must have missed it.
Haven't done it yet, no. Not really sure what it's good for, if anything, though I've considered including it a few times.

Separately, I now have an entry for draconic aura. Also considering doing some editing to urban companion, to reflect its higher level utility, and don't be too surprised if phynxkin companion and draconic aura get edited to reflect the interaction. Thinking more, might skip that whole phynxkin thing and just include dragontouched. Seems like a great way to give the whole party spell penetration, and it turns out that the fleshraker is totally qualified, presumably along with some other notable companions.

[Cosi]

From this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?480560-Aberration-Wildshape&p=20503744#post20503744) thread.


Seems plausible. Cost is a bit prohibitive, but the impact is high.

Should probably note that it's 3.0 content, so you do have to convert it (AFAIK, partial actions are the equivalent of 3.5 Standard actions). But yes, Multitasking is very good. Particularly with shapechange, as you can turn into a Chronotyryn (pocketing Dual Action), Wild Shape into an Octopus, and get eight standards a round.


It's a complicated spell. There's some interesting utility that wasn't previously available, and it wouldn't necessarily be awful if not for broader scale availability of effects that deny bombardment's SoL nature. The question of whether a spell is overleveled seems like it'd be relatively easy on the surface, but it becomes a lot more complex when dealing with high leveled druid spells because of the general weakness of those spells. Simply saying, "Yeah, this isn't much better than the 5th level version," isn't enough, because it still might be better than other available options. The fact of the matter is that some rather small changes to the spell would make it quite usable, if not necessarily good.

But the spell actually is bad. The question of how you would make it good is an interesting design question, and being able to answer that question is a valuable trait in someone who wants to write a D&D Handbook (as it signals a strong knowledge of the rules), but it's neither here nor there when it comes down to the brass tacks of playing a Druid.


I think I have most of that information in a general sense in the first section of each entry. It's not perfect, but I think you wind up knowing about what you need to know.

Honestly, I think the header for each entry should have the physical stats, as well as some combination of movement modes, natural attacks, and natural armor. That's information that people want, and it's a summary that makes skimming the guide much easier.


I agree in part. The reason it wound up that way is because that's the order that I wrote the entries, and I acknowledge that the way the comparison ordering worked out isn't ideal. However, in that case and many like it, the creature that comes later is decidedly the more iconic creature of the type. Using the obscure barracuda as the base creature tells you significantly less than using the well known shark.

Then put core stuff first. That lets all your citations be to things people know, and ensures that nothing is citing to a later entry.


Might be worth looking into, I suppose. Still, my entry on shapechange is necessarily pretty much the opposite of all encompassing. I don't know if there's much point to optimizing the thing when you're already past the singularity.

Possibly. My opinion on the matter is that any guide should have a "cheese" section, for stuff that is legal, but "broken" in whatever sense. So shapechange (both stacking and awaken tricks), the Octopus Druid, and Planar Shepherd shenanigans.


I'm not really sure where you're getting iterative attacks here, but even if you have them, they don't work on iteratives, cause iteratives work only with your bite attack. I don't think there's a way to get two bite attacks. I think there're ways to get some unarmed strikes in there, but those aren't all that great, and are kinda independent of your natural weapon stack.

So you change into some animal, right? That animal has natural attacks, which you can either use with your normal attack routine (which allows you to make iterative attacks with natural weapons, making the bite of the Wolf or 3e T-Rex OP) or with the animal's attack routine (which makes stacking damage buffs really good). They're both ways of fighting with Wild Shape, but they use totally different strategies. You should probably talk about that (and find some rules quotes which lean one way or the other).

[eggynack]

Should probably note that it's 3.0 content, so you do have to convert it (AFAIK, partial actions are the equivalent of 3.5 Standard actions). But yes, Multitasking is very good. Particularly with shapechange, as you can turn into a Chronotyryn (pocketing Dual Action), Wild Shape into an Octopus, and get eight standards a round.
3.0 isn't really an issue in itself, and the partial action thing seems workable given the feat's wording.




But the spell actually is bad. The question of how you would make it good is an interesting design question, and being able to answer that question is a valuable trait in someone who wants to write a D&D Handbook (as it signals a strong knowledge of the rules), but it's neither here nor there when it comes down to the brass tacks o playing a Druid.
What could make it good is indeed irrelevant. What's important is that the line between bombardment and good is a lot thinner and blurrier than you give it credit for. I wouldn't be surprised if the spell started black, and if a spell essentially fools me then that's enough trap for my book.




Honestly, I think the header for each entry should have the physical stats, as well as some combination of movement modes, natural attacks, and natural armor. That's information that people want, and it's a summary that makes skimming the guide much easier.
Can't say I haven't thought about it, but it's a tricky thing. I'll consider it further.




Then put core stuff first. That lets all your citations be to things people know, and ensures that nothing is citing to a later entry.
I don't like to source discriminate to that extent, and I don't even think all iconic forms are core.




Possibly. My opinion on the matter is that any guide should have a "cheese" section, for stuff that is legal, but "broken" in whatever sense. So shapechange (both stacking and awaken tricks), the Octopus Druid, and Planar Shepherd shenanigans.
The problem isn't that it's cheese, but that it's unimpactful. You're essentially as adding a couple points of add strength to the ability to use infinite wishes.




So you change into some animal, pright? That animal has natural attacks, which you can either use with your normal attack routine (which allows you to make iterative attacks with natural weapons, making the bite of the Wolf or 3e T-Rex OP) or with the animal's attack routine (which makesstacking damage buffs really good). They're both ways of fighting with Wild Shape, but they use totally different strategies. You should probably talk about that (and find some rules quotes which lean one way or the other).
That's just not how natural weapons work. They don't have iteratives ever. I'd give the citation, but I'm on a phone. The special ability entry is where the quote is though.

[Cosi]

What could make or good is indeed irrelevant. What's important is that the line between bombardment and good is a lot thinner and blurrier than you give it credit for. I wouldn't be surprised if the spell started black, and if a spell essentially fools me then that's enough trap for my book.

It's a blasting spell. When was the last time one of those was worth it at 15th level? Yes, it has a minor lockdown option attached, but targets get a save and subsequently can get out with a STR check or teleport SLA. Of SRD monsters, you can get the Mummy Lord (which is not all that dangerous, being a CR 5 monster stapled to a level 10 Cleric), and maybe the Dragons if your DCs are good.


I don't like to source discriminate to that extent, and I don't even think all iconic forms are core.

Isn't citing to the core form (medium shark) from the splat form (barracuda) because people are familiar with core, the exact same type of source discrimination, except that it makes things harder to parse?


The problem isn't that it's cheese, but that it's unimpactful. You'really essentially as adding a couple points of add strength to the ability to use infinite wishes.

Well, shapechange itself belongs in a cheese section, but there are certainly degrees. wish cheese probably counts as its own thing, distinct from using shapechange to stack immunities like "bludgeoning damage" and "non-bludgeoning damage".


That's just not how natural weapons work. They don't have iteratives ever. I'd give the citation, but I'm on a phone. The special ability entry is where the quote is though.

That's possible. I have heard the argument made the other way, but you may be correct. In any case, the idea of grabbing a bunch of natural attacks, stacking damage buffs, and shredding people deserves to at least be mentioned.

[eggynack]

It's a blasting spell. When was the last time one of those was worth it at 15th level? Yes, it has a minor lockdown option attached, but targets get a save and subsequently can get out with a STR check or teleport SLA. Of SRD monsters, you can get the Mummy Lord (which is not all that dangerous, being a CR 5 monster stapled to a level 10 Cleric), and maybe the Dragons if your DCs are good.
Have you looked at the list of 8th's I have? So many blasting spells with upside. Druid 8th's are quite bad.




Isn't citing to the core form (medium shark) from the splat form (barracuda) because people are familiar with core, the exact same type of source discrimination, except that it makes things harder to parse?
Not really, because the iconic creature isn't necessarily core. It could be a fleshraker or something. In any case, the general design of the handbook emphasizes ease of finding a given thing, rather than utility from reading in order.




Well, shapechange itself belongs in a cheese section, but there are ce rtainly degrees. wish cheese probably counts as its own thing, distinct from using shapechange to stack immunities like "bludgeoning damage" and "non-bludgeoning damage".
Maybe, but the main problem is that there're so many degrees of cheese between wishes and wild shape stacking. By the time I get to the latter, I have a shapechange handbook, and that's really not something I wanna do. Better, I thought, to make a bare bones proof that anything plausible pre-epic can be done with shapechange. From there, it's really up to the player what subset of everything they want.



That's possible. I have heard the argument made the other way, but you may be correct. In any case, the idea of grabbing a bunch of natural attacks, stacking damage buffs, and shredding people deserves to at least be mentioned.
I'm not all that sure what that plan looks like in optimal form though. Druids typically aren't about stacking dice onto attacks. The best damage buffs are like bite and greater magic fang, where they work about as well on a wolf as on an octopus. I guess there're item methods, but I'm not sure they'reworth it, and it's far more likely that the couple of items would reference the pile of forms rather than putting that information in a weird paragraph thing.

Edit: I can do the citation on natural weapons now, so, "Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons." (MM I, 312) The text is actually strict enough that it may preclude other sources of extra attacks. Like, you may only get one unarmed strike if you have access to those.

[Cosi]

Have you looked at the list of 8th's I have? So many blasting spells with upside. Druid 8th's are quite bad.

I still don't understand how that justifies a paragraph that is longer than the spell's description explaining exactly how it is bad. Yes, Druid 8ths aren't the best in the world, but it's not like there aren't good spells on the list.


Not really, because the iconic creature isn't necessarily core. It could be a fleshraker or something. In any case, the general design of the handbook emphasizes ease of finding a given thing, rather than utility from reading in order.

Be that as it may, the citation of something being like a subsequent thing seems like an unacceptably poor layout choice to me.


Maybe, but the main problem is that there're so many degrees of cheese between wishes and wild shape stacking. By the time I get to the latter, I have a shapechange handbook, and that's really not something I wanna do. Better, I thought, to make a bare bones proof that anything plausible pre-epic can be done with shapechange. From there, it's really up to the player what subset of everything they want.

Sure. But that seems like a compelling reason to make the description short and link to someone talking about shapechange or cool supernatural abilities.


I'm not all that sure what that plan looks like in optimal form though. Druids typically aren't about stacking dice onto attacks. The best damage buffs are like bite and greater magic fang, where they work about as well on a wolf as on an octopus. I guess there're item methods, but I'm not sure they'reworth it, and it's far more likely that the couple of items would reference the pile of forms rather than putting that information in a weird paragraph thing.

I mean, you are getting eight times whatever the normal value is out of buffs, which at least makes Octopus far and away the best combat form. The big thing that I would look for is some means of making your attacks poison, which would combine with venomfire to do amounts of damage which are very large.

[nyjastul69]

I still don't understand how that justifies a paragraph that is longer than the spell's description explaining exactly how it is bad. Yes, Druid 8ths aren't the best in the world, but it's not like there aren't good spells on the list.



Be that as it may, the citation of something being like a subsequent thing seems like an unacceptably poor layout choice to me.



Sure. But that seems like a compelling reason to make the description short and link to someone talking about shapechange or cool supernatural abilities.



I mean, you are getting eight times whatever the normal value is out of buffs, which at least makes Octopus far and away the best combat form. The big thing that I would look for is some means of making your attacks poison, which would combine with venomfire to do amounts of damage which are very large.

Octopuses are great when in water. As a combat form you gotta spend resources on being able to survive out of water though. It's a small hurdle, but it still uses resources.

[eggynack]

I still don't understand how that justifies a paragraph that is longer than the spell's description explaining exactly how it is bad. Yes, Druid 8ths aren't the best in the world, but it's not like there aren't good spells on the list.
But the description isn't about how bad it is. It's about how it's close but not quite there. This is just pretty close to what 8th level combat druid spells look like. Piles of damage that's hard to resist, in a wide area, with a fancy rider effect that ranges from save or such to save or die. The only reason bombardment's on the low end of that type of effect is because the specific type of rider happens to work poorly on the basis of the metagame at that level. It's about complicated extrinsic factors, not easily visible intrinsic ones. Point is, I think you're coming to the conclusion you're coming to because you rate the spell lower than I do. Also, gotta say, even if the spell were just awful, it might still be worth having the writing because people love reading about why bad stuff is bad. At least I do. Might be worth putting in a massive entry about dinosaur stampede on that basis. Now that spell is awful.



Be that as it may, the citation of something being like a subsequent thing seems like an unacceptably poor layout choice to me.

I don't see why it's necessarily unacceptable to have to go to a different entry. And, because the shark is a well known creature, a reader wouldn't necessarily have to do that anyway. It might be worth doing your cited inversions, rewriting everything that references shark to instead reference barracuda, and reconstruct all of those entries to match the new setup, but that takes bunches of time.


Sure. But that seems like a compelling reason to make the description short and link to someone talking about shapechange or cool supernatural abilities.
I basically did, except the quote was from Tippy, and was pretty short itself. I figure that his quotes are as good as anything else you could put together on the topic. I don't think anyone's done really extensive work on shapechange, but if they have, I'd be happy to link to it. I guess that's ultimately the limiting factor to basically linking to someone else's handbook about shapechange, that there might not be one.



I mean, you are getting eight times whatever the normal value is out of buffs, which at least makes Octopus far and away the best combat form. The big thing that I would look for is some means of making your attacks poison, which would combine with venomfire to do amounts of damage which are very large.
Not really on the first part. Those bonuses I mentioned are about accuracy to a large extent, and accuracy helps single big attacks as much as or more than a bunch of smaller ones. To the second part, I guess, but venomfire doesn't care that much about attack quantity, cause it just kills stuff. Finally, a bunch of this stuff seems kinda trivial. You're basically telling me that you want something up top of wild shape saying, "If you have lots of attacks, then boosting damage is better." That's not a matter of style, but simply one of math. It could be worth putting that somewhere, but are you sure it's not too trivial to merit inclusion, especially given how few such effects are represented in the overall handbook?

[Mr Adventurer]

Octopuses are great when in water. As a combat form you gotta spend resources on being able to survive out of water though. It's a small hurdle, but it still uses resources.

A Druid once ruined my dungeon crawl by Wild Shaping into an octopus (for 8 attacks), casting Speed of the Raptor (for 60' land speed) and a slew of other buffs to become Chicken-legged scuttling mutoid octopus of Doom.

[Beheld]

Edit: I can do the citation on natural weapons now, so, "Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons." (MM I, 312) The text is actually strict enough that it may preclude other sources of extra attacks. Like, you may only get one unarmed strike if you have access to those.

The problem is that if you look at the FAQs and Sage articles, literally both ways or using iterative attacks are described as the correct way. Now, it's almost certainly only one, but depending on who you ask, different people will tell you different things is how it works.

[eggynack]

The problem is that if you look at the FAQs and Sage articles, literally both ways or using iterative attacks are described as the correct way. Now, it's almost certainly only one, but depending on who you ask, different people will tell you different things is how it works.
That stuff doesn't really qualify as rules, by my understanding. Moreover, these only plausibly RAI sources are competing against a direct core citation, possibly the RAWest source there is. I don't see much room for ambiguity on the basis of what you're citing, as a result. Something out of an actual source book would be more interesting, but would still lose to the all consuming power of core, and you actually get to ambiguous status when you bring up something from a different core source, though even then there are ways to remove the contradiction. I suppose the rules compendium could plausibly be strong enough, but I just checked and it says, "Creatures don’t receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons," just as in the monster manual.

[Cosi]

Is there a way to get something that functions like the Warshaper's Multimorph (change form repeatedly without costing extra Wild Shape uses) ability without losing caster levels?

[eggynack]

Haven't seen anything like that. There'd definitely be some cool things possible with such an ability.

[eggynack]

I've updated urban companion to reflect the fact that it's actually pretty sweet at high levels, and put in a little note about wand use. I feel lIke it's an ACF worth taking a non-trivial fraction of the time, and while the color of the entry remains black, it's definitely higher in that grade. Also, first handbook thing done on a phone, so that’s neat.

[Snowbluff]

I've updated urban companion to reflect the fact that it's actually pretty sweet at high levels, and put in a little note about wand use. I feel lIke it's an ACF worth taking a non-trivial fraction of the time, and while the color of the entry remains black, it's definitely higher in that grade. Also, first handbook thing done on a phone, so that’s neat.
I do like the urban companion, especially in the weird cases where an AnC isn't appropriate or isn't being progressed by the build.

[Troacctid]

Urban Companion is great. I love it. It's like a familiar, only way better. And familiars are already really good. Did I ever share my mini-guide to familiars?

Bat (+3 to Listen)
Bats are most notable for their blindsense, which allows them to automatically detect and pinpoint enemies within 20 feet. That's a pretty excellent ability. The range may be short, but the ability to just say "No" to your enemies' Hide checks without even having to roll is a pretty substantial advantage, and automatically knowing the location of invisible or concealed enemies is definitely helpful, especially if you have access to area attacks that don't care about concealment. Other familiars have scent, which can fill a similar role (and occasionally offers additional utility, e.g. for penetrating disguises or tracking), but the additional precision of blindsense makes it an upgrade in combat scenarios, which are, of course, the most common scenarios.

Besides that, they have a fly speed with good maneuverability, so, unlike birds, they have the ability to hover in place and fly straight up. They also have a +14 on Hide and a +8 on Spot and Listen before any skill ranks. All in all, pretty good scouts.

The main drawback of the bat is probably its carrying capacity, or lack thereof. With 1 Strength and diminutive size, it takes less than a single pound of weight to encumber a bat. But considering their lack of opposable thumbs, they probably weren't handling a lot of items anyway.

Bottom line: Bats are one of the best standard familiars, with probably the best perception and mobility of all of them, and decent stealth to boot.

Cat (+3 to Move Silently)
The most notable feature of the cat is its three natural attacks (claw-claw-bite), which is more attacks than any of the other standard familiars. Unfortunately, being Tiny size, they can't really take advantage of them, since they have a 0-foot reach. Also, three attacks is less impressive when you consider that they're only dealing the minimum 1 damage.

Cats also have decent stealth (+16 Hide and +8 Move Silently before skill ranks) and scent, so they can scout a little, but since their Spot and Listen aren't very good and they don't have a fly speed or even a climb speed, you can do better.

There is one special advantage that cats have: the ability to take Feline feats (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c). Of course, since familiars don't gain feats, this is mostly irrelevant, unless you want to use Psychic Reformation to swap your cat's Stealthy feat for Flop, which has decent comedy value if nothing else.

Bottom line: I don't recommend a cat familiar unless you really want that +3 to Move Silently; even then, I'd recommend a snowy owl instead.

Hawk (+3 to Spot checks in bright light)
Hawks are the fastest of the standard familiars, with a 60-foot flight speed (although only average maneuverability). They also have decent AC and Dexterity, and a good Spot check (+16). Other than that, there's nothing really worth noting. Low-light vision, but no darkvision. Worst stealth of any standard familiar. No scent or anything like that.

Basically, they're like owls, except instead of having +17 to Move Silently, they have an extra 20 feet of speed. Most of the time, I expect the Move Silently is going to be more important.

Also, note that hawks are strictly worse than gyrfalcons, which have all the same statistics, but offer the +3 Spot to their master in all lighting conditions.

Bottom line: Hawks are a solid bird-type familiar, but nothing special, and there's little reason to choose them over an owl.

Lizard (+3 to Climb)
Lizards are underwhelming. Their stats are weak, their skills are weak, and they give you a +3 to Climb, which is completely useless. Sure, they're good climbers, but considering that they're competing with familiars that can fly, that's not really an advantage.

It does let you speak with lizards, I guess. Including dinosaurs. So that's something.

Bottom line: With weak stats across the board and no useful abilities, it's a poor choice overall.

Owl (+3 to Spot checks in shadows)
Owls are like hawks, except they have Listen instead of Spot, and a +17 to Move Silently instead of a faster flight speed. If you're in dim light, the owl's +8 racial bonus to Spot checks in shadowy illumination kicks in, bringing its Spot up to only 2 points below the hawk's.

Listen tends to be more reliable than Spot, since poor visual conditions are more common than strong winds or magical silence, and a decent portion of the time, the owl will have a great Spot check too. Furthermore, the extra stealth is a pretty big deal for scouting; +17 is a lot of Move Silently. So I'd definitely rank owls above hawks.

Take note that snowy owls have the same stats, but give you a +3 to Move Silently instead of +3 to Spot checks in shadows.

Bottom line: Swift, stealthy, and perceptive, owls are essentially a better version of hawks, and a solid choice overall.

Rat (+2 to Fortitude)
Rats have pretty good stealth, with +16 Hide and +10 Move Silently before skill ranks. They're not very fast, with a speed of only 15 feet, and they don't fly, but they have climb and swim speeds, so that's not too bad. They don't have Spot or Listen, but they do have scent, which does a good job making up for it. Overall, their stats are definitely passable.

The main reason you'd want a rat, though, is to shore up your saves. The +2 to Fortitude is in the running for the best bonus you can get from a familiar. Considering that rats have pretty reasonable stats and abilities on top of that, they're a pretty good deal.

Bottom line: The +2 to Fort is great, and the rat itself has decent stealth and movement modes, plus scent for perception. A strong choice.

Raven (+3 to Appraise)
If you look at the numbers on the raven, it comes out behind owls and hawks across the board. Crummy skills, weak stats, slower flight speed, and... Appraise? Who even uses Appraise, seriously? Come on.

What makes ravens (and parrots) worth taking is their ability to speak. Unlike other standard familiars, ravens speak one language of their master's choice as a supernatural ability. This allows them to communicate with other party members and NPCs, but more importantly, it allows them to activate magic items that require a command word or a spell trigger. So if your build has Use Magic Device ranks to share with the raven (or parrot), it can use wands and stuff, which is pretty nice.

Bottom line: Ravens are good because they can talk and talking lets them say command words.

Snake (+3 to Bluff)
Snakes have okay stats, with good AC and Dexterity, climb and swim speeds, and scent. They've got a decent Hide mod (+15), but no Move Silently.

Mainly, snakes have two features that might make you want one. The first is the +3 Bluff. Bluff is a pretty decent skill, and if you care about it at all, you probably want it as high as possible. The second is their poison, which deals 1d6 Constitution damage on a failed save. Unfortunately, the save DC is pitifully low, and immunity to poison is common, so odds are good that you will never deal any actual Constitution damage to anyone with your snake. I mean, maybe you might get someone at low levels, if your snake can get a hit in without dying to an attack of opportunity. (Remember, 0-foot reach.) Or maybe you can milk the venom and apply it to your weapon before combat, or during combat with an alchemical capsule retainer (see Complete Adventurer p122), but honestly, as cool as that strategy might sound, it's just not very practical. Remember, you still need to follow the crafting rules—if you don't invest any ranks in Craft (poisonmaking), you're looking at maybe two-ish doses for a week's worth of crafting, and you still have to pay 1/6 of the market price for them.

Ultimately, it's not as good as other familiars, but at least it's not the worst, and it has gimmick value. I'd mainly look to take it as a thematic choice for a character who likes snakes and/or poison. See also the sea snake, which trades away some general utility for an improved poison DC.

Bottom line: Meh. Poison is a cute gimmick, but you can do better. At least they have scent.

Toad (+3 hit points)
Toads are kind of terrible. They have no mobility, with only a 5-foot land speed (not even a swim speed). No scent, no skills besides Hide, no useful abilities, crummy stats...they're just generally not-good.

The main circumstance where you'd select a toad would be if you're a 1st level Sorcerer or Wizard and you desperately need those +3 hit points in order to not fall over in a stiff breeze. Even then, you're not really happy about it. There's a reason Neville Longbottom is the only kid at Hogwarts with a pet toad, and it's not because he's a trend-setter who's ahead of the curve.

Bottom line: Do you have 10 or more HP already? Then you have no reason to pick a toad.

Weasel (+2 to Reflex)
Weasels are essentially rats, but with Reflex instead of Fortitude. Their stats and abilities are roughly comparable--rats are a little stealthier, weasels are a little faster, rats can swim, weasels have that weird (mostly useless) attach ability.

On the whole, though, I'd say rats are a little better. The extra Hide bonus is relevant, and unless you have really low HP, Fortitude tends to be a slightly more important save to shore up than Reflex. Still, it's close, and there are definitely characters who might want a weasel.

Bottom line: Better saves are always going to be good, so weasels are a fine choice.
Drakken Familiar
Sorcerers, Wizards, and Hexblades can gain a drakken version of any normal familiar. It's the same as the base creature, except instead of gaining the ability to deliver touch spells, it gains a breath weapon (15-foot cone, usable once per hour, that deals 1d6 + twice your level in fire damage, Reflex half), and instead of speaking with other animals of its kind, it can speak with dragons.

This is a fine deal, considering that a lot of casters don't even use their familiars for delivering touch spells. It's not a ton of damage, but it's not costing you an action, so you might as well take it and use it.

Speaking with dragons is a downgrade, though, since most dragons can just speak actual languages.

Bottom line: If you aren't delivering touch spells through your familiar, it's solid value.

Huitzil (+3 to Sleight of Hand)
Huitzils are like tiny potbellied draconic kleptomaniacs. They have a flight speed of 60 feet with slightly-better-than-average maneuverability thanks to the Hover feat. They also have a +4 racial bonus to Search and Sleight of Hand. Oh, and they have a Distract ability, which allows the huitzil to make a touch attack against an enemy whose space it shares in order to give said enemy a -2 to attack rolls for 1 round...pretty useless.

The main reason why you might want a huitzil is if you too are a kleptomaniac, and you want a familiar who shares your love of pickpocketing. Problem is, they're not very good at anything else, at least not compared to a hawk or an owl. Yeah, they're fast, and they can hover, but their stealth and perception skills are low and they have no special senses, making them subpar scouts, and they certainly don't have any combat chops worth mentioning.

Bottom line: They've got a decent fly speed, so you could do worse, but the stats and abilities just aren't there.
Arctic Fox (+3 to Move Silently)
The most interesting thing about arctic foxes is that they're Small-sized rather than Tiny, which means unlike most familiars, they actually threaten adjacent squares. That means they can be your flanking buddy, and even make actual attacks!

Of course, their bite only deals 1d4-2 damage, so they're probably more likely to use their standard action to aid another character's attack. That's still pretty decent. They can also deliver touch spells without provoking opportunity attacks, if you're into that kind of thing.

Aside from threatening adjacent squares, they also have scent, a 40-foot land speed, a so-so Hide check, and that's about it.

Arctic foxes are best when paired with characters who want someone to flank with and can make use of the +3 to Move Silently—so, sneak attackers, mainly. Their closest competitor is the Albatross, which is also small-size and can fly, but has worse combat stats and no scent.

Bottom line: If you need a flanking buddy and you don't have Improved Familiar, an arctic fox is definitely an option.

Gyrfalcon (+3 to Spot)
Same stats as the hawk, except the Spot bonus applies in any light. Obviously an upgrade. Otherwise, see hawk.

Lemming (+2 to Listen and Spot)
Uses the same stats as the rat, but with a bonus to perception instead of Fortitude. Perception is cool and all, but the bonus to Fortitude is waaay better, so there's no reason to take this over a rat.

Bottom line: Did you know that, contrary to what popular culture might suggest, lemmings don't actually commit mass suicide? It's a common misconception. Oh, and also, they suck as familiars.

Snowy Owl (+3 to Move Silently)
Same stats as the owl, but with a bonus to Move Silently. See owl.

Penguin (+2 to Fortitude)
Penguins are slightly faster swimmers than rats, but are worse in every other way. Since swimming faster is useless most of the time, there's no compelling reason to take a penguin over a rat, unless you just really like penguins.

Bottom line: They may be cute, but their stats suck, and you should just get a rat instead.

Puffin (+2 to Swim and Survival)
Same stats as the raven, except they don't talk. Which is like the entire point of the raven, so...I mean...yeah...

Bottom line: Like penguins and lemmings, they're cute, but they suck as familiars.
Horned Lizard (+2 to Will)
Horned lizards don't have impressive stats—good Hide, above-average AC, so-so Spot and Listen, and that's about it—but they have three good things going for them.

First off, +2 to Will saves! That's an excellent bonus, and nearly enough on its own to make them worthwhile.

Second, they're the only standard familiar with a burrow speed. The ability to tunnel through dirt can definitely come in handy, even if it's too slow to be of any tactical use in combat.

Third, they have the nifty ability to squirt blood out of their eyes, which is really gross, but more importantly renders your enemies shaken for 1 round (with a DC 11 Will save to negate). Note that, while the horned lizard can only squirt blood to a distance of 5 feet, the ability affects any opponent who sees the display, so it actually has quite a significant range. Now, granted, the save DC is pretty paltry, and a lot of monsters are immune to fear. But it can be used at will, and the horned lizard can spam it every round, hitting every enemy simultaneously. They're bound to fail their saves some of the time, and when they do...value! This is especially good if you have other ways of rendering your enemies shaken, because the fear will stack and make them frightened instead. In particular, a Bard with Inspire Awe (see Dragon Magic p13) could get good use out of this ability.

Bottom line: Its stats are nothing special, and it doesn't make a great scout, but it has an easier time contributing to combat than most standard familiars, and +2 Will is great. A strong choice.
Albatross (+1 to Spot)
Stat-wise, the albatross is worse than the hawk across the board. Speed is worse, ability scores are worse, skills are worse, AC is worse, granted ability is worse, even the feats are worse. (Endurance? Yuck.)

The main reason you'd take an albatross is for their small size, which lets them threaten adjacent squares, so they can attack, flank, aid another, deliver touch spells, or what-have-you, without provoking attacks of opportunity.

Now, they have worse combat stats than the arctic fox, and since you're planning to take it into combat, that is a very relevant concern. Still, flight is pretty good, and the albatross is definitely a better scout because of it, at least in environments where it has enough room to spread its wings.

Bottom line: If you need your familiar to threaten adjacent squares and you don't have Improved Familiar, an albatross is a good choice. If you're not too concerned about threatening adjacent squares, it's not a good choice.

Eel (+3 to Escape Artist)
Eels are notable as the only Medium-size standard familiar! The notability ends there, though, since they are strictly aquatic and, unless your entire adventure takes place exclusively underwater, they will suffocate and die within the first five minutes, making them somewhat impractical.

Bottom line: Yeah, you probably want a familiar that can survive on land.

Fish Owl (+3 to Spot checks in shadows)
Identical to the owl. See owl.

Octopus (+3 to grapple)
Like the eel, the octopus has the rather damning flaw of not being able to, y'know, breathe. Unlike the eel, the octopus actually has some sweet abilities. The ink cloud provides total concealment, which is great, and...well, okay, that's pretty much the only sweet ability, since improved grab isn't really what you're looking for on a Small-size creature with 12 Strength. But notice that the ink cloud can be used even when the octopus is not underwater. I mean, that's kind of weird and doesn't make much sense, but if you're willing to hook the octopus up with some manner of Air Breathing spell, it could do something for you.

Also, improved grab isn't completely irrelevant. I mean, the octopus does share your BAB, and unlike a lot of creatures' improved grab abilities, it isn't restricted by size, so if you're, like, a Duskblade, it could actually have a decent enough grapple mod to maybe grab some stuff? Who knows.

Bottom line: Probably not worth the effort, but it's different, at least.

Parrot (+3 to Appraise)
Identical to the raven (but with prettier colors, so it's better, obviously). See raven.

Sea Snake (+3 to Bluff)
Sea snakes are identical to the standard vipers, except their land speed is decreased to 10 feet, their swim speed is increased to 30 feet, their climb speed is removed, and the save DC of their poison is increased by 2. Also, all their racial skill bonuses are removed except for the +8 to Swim for having a swim speed.

This is not a great trade unless you're really interested in the poison. Now, to be fair, if your build does want a source of poison, and you're not worried about using your familiar as a scout, then it is a legitimately good trade. Tiny sea snake venom is identical to black adder venom: 120 gp/dose and a Craft (poisonmaking) DC of 15, according to Complete Adventurer. With a direct source of venom, you can craft the poison at 1/6 the base price, so 20 gp/dose.

Poison is a generally weak effect due to the low DCs and the ubiquity of poison immunity. I'm not a fan of giving up utility for it. I can imagine specialty builds that might be interested in the cheap poison, but unless you have a very specific plan in mind, I'd stay away.

Bottom line: Only worth taking if you're milking it for poison.

[eggynack]

Just added dinosaur stampede. Mostly cause dinosaur stampede is hilarious, and awful, and hilariously awful. Partially because I wanted a spell that's way worse than bombardment with a longer entry. But, y'know, mostly the first thing. It's so bad.

[SnugUndies]

Wow! A couple years ago, I took the Druid Handbook from Brilliant Gameologists and then added tips, tricks and ideas from anywhere else I found them on the Internet. Seems my efforts were in vain while this behemoth exists, though, ha ha.

[Endarire]

Smug, you helped by adding another perspective. Thankee!

[greyknight666]

Just curious whats the verdict on Dragonlance's Holy Order of Stars Wild Fury of Chislev, one prestige class that I dont see a mention of, unless i missed it within the thread.

[nyjastul69]

Just curious whats the verdict on Dragonlance's Holy Order of Stars Wild Fury of Chislev, one prestige class that I dont see a mention of, unless i missed it within the thread.

I speak for no one other than myself, least of all, Eggynack. My assumption as to the lack of that PrC's inclusion is based on the fact that the source material is not from a D&D book. It's from an officially licensed d20 product that is compatible with the world's most popular RPG.

[eggynack]

Is it even officially licensed? I thought that only dragonlance campaign setting had that status. In any case, it's not a bad class, but it doesn't seem all that good either, assuming I'm looking at the right one. You spend two feats, and lose the animal companion and minor class features alike, and in return you get those bestial feats, magic fang stuff, and a speed bonus. The feats are mostly awful, except for natural spell which is so good that it's hard to justify waiting on it for multiple levels, and the magic fang, well, casting greater magic fang isn't exactly a big deal. The speed bonus is decent but marginal. Point being, it looks like you lose more than you gain, and what you gain isn't all that much fun.

[greyknight666]

Thanks for the verdict on it. The whole dragonlance setting is little wonky, love the novels but the rpg setting meh. Its Wild Fury sort of had the same idea from me. I just didn't know if i was missing anything. Its one of those hidden prestige classes that doesn't see much attention because of well being from Dragonlance. It sort of works for me i have a bad habit of forgetting about companions and familiars so i tend to use variants or flaws to get something i'd remember about. Unless the character is built around that.

[eggynack]

Just added two new FAQ entries, both associated with advanced animals.

[eggynack]

Here's a fancy new entry about incarnum dragons. Kinda ambiguous stuff, but now there's yet another way to pull off druidic necromancy, which is the best thing.

Edit: Decided to ditch it.

[eggynack]

Just did an entry on resize, which is an orison from dragon. Didn't think it'd be worth making a post about when I started, but then it turned out to be super complicated, to the point that it needed two paragraphs. Also turned out to be a pretty good spell, so that's another reason an arbitrary and obscure zeroth is getting a big ol' post. Ya gotta love when you can halve the cost for the mundane part of expensive armor on any small creature, and do so in a manner that's permanent if not dispelled.

[eggynack]

Couple minor updates. I checked through the forgotten realms update materials. Downside was that it turns out the night hunter deep bat is a magical beast, rather than an animal. Upside was that the ghaunadan, a rather cool looking aberration, is an aberration, rather than a shapechanger or whatever. The former was tossed right away, and the latter may or may not be added, pending a closer look. Also, as was noticed by Hiro Quester, the spell entry for blizzard was erroneously listed as 100 ft., rather than 100 ft./level. Weird mistake, that. Anyways, I'ma check silver marches, cause I have the vague feeling that I missed something there.

Edit: Nope to that thing, but I'm just generally looking through monster update stuff now. Turns out that adding some delineation between dragons beyond what I have is kinda pointless, because most dragons just happen to be true dragons, and have all that stuff included, including, say, gem dragons.

Double-edit: Decided to add the fancy new aberration. It's not the best, but it has its share of neat abilities. Might be a bit influenced here by the dual facts that I had to ditch a different entry, and that the unclear typing makes the ghaunadan hard to find.

[eggynack]

Added traveler's mount to spells, and, far far more important, the fabulous cats feat weight focus. Who knew that that weird web enhancement had a reasonably powerful grappling feat for animal companions? There's some consideration towards adding other feats from there, like flop, for the most ridiculous daze lock ever, or healing chi, to help out with casting sanctified spells. Also, are there any cool things that only monstrous humanoids can use? I don't remember if I've researched wild runner for weird applications, and it could be worth looking into.

Edit: Added absorb mind too, Cool spell, that.

[eggynack]

Lotta updates today. I added some paragraphs to plant forms to note that some or all of them can give you plant traits with enhance, and boneleaf and the corruption eater have been added to aberration forms.

[Cavir]

Ever considered a Dark Sun section for the handbook?

Has *nothing* to do with me playing my first druid in such a world. Nope, none at all :D

[eggynack]

Ever considered a Dark Sun section for the handbook?

Isn't that rather far from first party? I think it's further out than things in dragon magazine. If it's full on third, then I dunno that It's justifiable, cause there's roughly infinite other third party. I mean, it's very unlikely that it'd get a section rather than just getting integrated in like any other source.

[Troacctid]

I know there's some Dark Sun stuff in Dragon Magazine.

[eggynack]

I know there's some Dark Sun stuff in Dragon Magazine.
I think that stuff is already in the handbook, if it's druid relevant. I recall seeing that source when I was going through dragon stuff.

[Cavir]

Isn't that rather far from first party?
Good point.
Wonder if there are many DS games out there (not just on GITP).

[eggynack]

Good point.
Wonder if there are many DS games out there (not just on GITP).
Checked it out, incidentally, and it seems like straight up third party. Done purely under OGL and whatnot. It's a more interesting source than most third party sources, especially because it seems like the setting was once wizards supported, and inclusion in Dragon feels like tacit endorsement, but that more increases the likelihood rather than making inclusion actually likely.

Anyways, separate thing which served as the major impetus to posting, I updated greater dispel to include the curse removal. I had no idea that was even part of the spell, and it's more relevant than usual due to the druid's lack of remove curse. It doesn't look like even heal fully (or even partially? I'm not super familiar with the minutiae of what cures what) deals with the issue.

[Wacky89]

Just noticed a minor mistake in your guide under your 3rd level spells you have Cone of Euphoria listed.
It's a 4th level druid spell, it's only 3rd for Bard's

[eggynack]

Just noticed a minor mistake in your guide under your 3rd level spells you have Cone of Euphoria listed.
It's a 4th level druid spell, it's only 3rd for Bard's
True enough. Dunno whether or not that informed the description of it, but said description doesn't make reference to spells of other levels, so I'ma leave that aspect unchanged.

Separately, I edited phantom stag to note the nifty fact that it keys off of caster level.

Edit: Added The Frog God's Fane. Knowledge (nature) is nice. Also, considering editing MoMF to address the fact that it looks like you can get some casting through it.

[Godofallu]

I'm starting to really get into DnD 3.5 and this forum has a ton of great guides and such to really dig in and learn the complexities of the game.

My only real question is why the guide (and other guides) avoids/lacks a build section. Like why isn't there a section somewhere with a pre-made build for each type of Druid? Like Summoner, Shifter, General, Ect?

Isn't the entire point of a guide to obtain information that you will then use towards making a Druid? Wouldn't it be beneficial to get a nice outline for how a completed Druid might actually look? If I see the author picked certain feats then it's kind of obvious that these feats are good. Instead of reading through 30+ pages on feats you can just get the gist with a simple snapshot.

Druid has got to be one of the most complex classes and frankly I can't pretend to do it as good as others on my first try. Just following (mostly) a pre-made build would probably be better for me than making something up by scratch.

[eggynack]

I'm starting to really get into DnD 3.5 and this forum has a ton of great guides and such to really dig in and learn the complexities of the game.

My only real question is why the guide (and other guides) avoids/lacks a build section. Like why isn't there a section somewhere with a pre-made build for each type of Druid? Like Summoner, Shifter, General, Ect?

Isn't the entire point of a guide to obtain information that you will then use towards making a Druid? Wouldn't it be beneficial to get a nice outline for how a completed Druid might actually look? If I see the author picked certain feats then it's kind of obvious that these feats are good. Instead of reading through 30+ pages on feats you can just get the gist with a simple snapshot.

Druid has got to be one of the most complex classes and frankly I can't pretend to do it as good as others on my first try. Just following (mostly) a pre-made build would probably be better for me than making something up by scratch.
I've definitely considered it, but honestly, druids aren't that crazy complicated on the build end. Most of it is just taking stuff that's good. So, like, you take aberration wild shape, because that's really good, but what does that have to tell you about the rest of your build? Sure, you can theoretically try to match the theming from those feats, but it's not even all that plausible to do so, cause there aren't other worthwhile aberration feats (aside from maybe gatekeeper initiate, which hits things from the other endd). Things are similar on the class side. You take the holt warden/contemplative dip combo, and that's a useful thing, but it doesn't really speak to the way the rest of the build should look. Hell, even if you're going all in on a shifter summoner, you shouldn't really be spending all your feats on summoning, because of diminishing returns, and you shouldn't be spending any feats on shifting. The whole plan boils down to two substitution levels, the four moonspeaker levels, and then a couple of feats, and that's about as intensive as a plan gets.

It all speaks to a central concept with druids, that they just don't specialize all that much. You can specialize if you really want to, but it's frequently more downside than upside, something you're doing because you like the concept than something you're doing because it increases your power. A wizard might pile up on metamagic to buff a single spell, and a cleric might go deep on DMM, and both classes will prestige out as much as possible, but druids really want all of these crazy and semi-unrelated feats. The same tends to apply to non-casters, with fighters and their AoO tripping strategies, and factotums with their piles of FoI, and rogues with their stealth/sneak attack focus. Druids don't like prestiging out too much, and they don't like getting tied down too much for feat selection, and neither spells nor the animal companion have too much in the way of synergies that you'd want to exploit (y'know, something that'd inform your whole list, cause there're definitely some setups that use a couple of spells). The end result is that any druid build I'd construct would be a bit arbitrary, optimization-wise. They'd make a few basic choices, greenbound or rashemi, aberration, dragon, or exalted, yes or no on contemplative, and then there'd be a build.

However, as I indicated above, that doesn't necessarily mean there's no point to it, just perhaps less point than you'd think. That stuff I just talked about might not be insanely complicated, but that doesn't mean it's trivial by any means, and there's likely some intrinsic value to seeing things laid out cleanly. Also, while builds need not necessarily be themed, I do have some more theme inclined stuff that's interesting to look at. Mostly the aberration/undead druid and the exalted half-orc. Another benefit to it is that I could have a fancy "On Theming" entry, which would go into the nature of broadening themes, and using different aspects of the theme, and different themes altogether, to touch different aspects of the build. It's the way that, if you claim to be all about aberrations, you're going to wind up with a lot of spells that have nothing to do with them. So, yeah, might end up doing that, though I suspect properly formatting the whole thing will be a bit of a chore.

[Darrin]

My only real question is why the guide (and other guides) avoids/lacks a build section. Like why isn't there a section somewhere with a pre-made build for each type of Druid? Like Summoner, Shifter, General, Ect?


Hmmm... gimme a few days and maybe I can post some examples. Off the top of my head, some builds to consider:

Core Summoner
Core Druidzilla
Core Bearzilla
DMMzilla
Drunkey Kong
Arcane Hydrophant
Fochlucan Lyrist
Holt Wardenzilla
Optimized Summoner
Optimized Craftzilla
Cryohydrazilla
Planetcracker (Planar Shepherd)

[eggynack]

Started thinking on the build section thing. Kinda iffy on what it should look like. I mean, traditionally, you have the class listing as the main thing, but that's pretty open ended on a druid. I guess my big problem here is that what a build means on a druid is super inconsistent. Like, the moonspeaker incorporates race, levels, ACF's, and a bit in the way of feats, but doesn't care much about thematic spells at all beyond using SNA and maybe a couple of those shifter spells. By contrast, the aberration/necromancy druid, as I usually consider it, takes something close to the exact opposite approach. It's all about a few major feats, combined with really interesting spell selection and wild shape use (even beyond the typical aberration stuff, cause the plant zombies would factor in), but there's nothing super solid with regards to race, levels, or ACF's. The problem extends beyond that too. I mean, Darrin, just look at what some of the stuff on that list would actually mean. Core summoner might as well just read, "Take augment summoning." The holt warden might as well just be that, plus contemplative. And the hydra thing is mostly just frozen wild shape.

So, came up with a new approach that makes some sense to me, while writing this post. Instead of discussing cool builds, which could be an interesting topic of discussion in and of itself, it might make more sense to just mostly build a druid. Y'know, lay out a specific build, and include some justification for various choices along the way. The listing would presumably only stop at places where a choice is made, like a feat selection or a prestige class. The build in question will likely just be that aberration thing, cause I like it, and it gives me an opportunity to talk up spell theming, like I've mentioned in the past. Speaking of that, I think it makes sense to eschew a complete list, and just have some suggested spells that fit the theme, maybe on a per level basis if I get sufficiently into it, but I'm also liable to do the opposite, mushing the spells and the other cool in-game stuff you can do that fits the theme. Either way, it should be cool if I ever get around to it.

Arbitrary question time: First, does that seem to be the optimal layout for such a section? I do like the Treantmonk style where he lays out a bunch of big builds, but that doesn't seem to fit the druid as well, because a lot of that section is about synergies between prestige classes, and it also might not fit the tone of this handbook as well. Second, What do I title this thing? Making a druid? Maybe that. Finally, I know what most of those builds are, cause it's obvious, but what's Drunkey Kong and Arcane Hydrophant? I'm half inclined to think the latter is a typo, but I prefer to imagine a world where there exist some synergies between theurging and water magic, and with the former, I guess there's it could be referring to the whole thumb'd creature with a quarterstaff plan, but that seems entirely spell focused, and if drunkness actually comes in anywhere that that excites me.

Edit: Finally decided to add a gas spore entry. Not great, but it's at least interesting.

[Endarire]

White Dragons are unique in that they have Icewalking (spider climb continuously on ice), burrowing, swimming, and flying! They're not much good for anything else considering other Dragon Wild Shape options, but, again, it's these abilities in combination that makes them interesting. And they're [Cold] subtype.

[eggynack]

White Dragons are unique in that they have Icewalking (spider climb continuously on ice), burrowing, swimming, and flying! They're not much good for anything else considering other Dragon Wild Shape options, but, again, it's these abilities in combination that makes them interesting. And they're [Cold] subtype.
I think I had it popping around there at some point. A big problem with the form is that you're basically in it just for the icewalking, because otherwise there are totally other forms that have a pile of different movement modes, and in better ways at that. And icewalking just isn't that good, given that you're getting a much more situational version of a just alright second level spell. On some level, you're always going to be better off on that front with, say, the lower end mercury dragon with its perfect fly speed. I think the bigger issue, however, is that this isn't really a form you want to just be in. Your selling point is essentially that you're getting a bunch of movement modes in one, but that means that, to gain an advantage, you need to take this form and stick with it, hitting a swim situation, and then a burrowing situation, and then maybe a flight situation, all while being a white dragon. And white dragons kinda suck. Their immunity is super mediocre and comes with a downside, their breath weapon is similarly boring, and it just doesn't seem to have that much going for it. Also, I'm sure there was another dragon form somewhere that also have that all modes in one trick, but I can't seem to place it. I'ma check some sources.

Edit: Pyroclastic dragon. That's the one I was thinking of, maybe. Loses the ice walking thing, gets a climb speed, and also gets better immunities/breath weapon. I'll check some more.

Double-edit: Li lung might actually be the one, cause it's actually in the handbook. Sweet form, that.

Triple-edit: Deep dragon also. I'm on a dragon-finding roll right now.

[eggynack]

I've officially started writing up the fancy aberration build. My goal is kinda a mix of creating a classically strong druid, and hitting as many druid optimization notes as possible. To that end, I'm working in some ACF's, and hopefully some dips. The holt warden aspect of holt warden/contemplative isn't perfectly themed for maximum weird-druidness, but the contemplative aspect probably can be. Or I could do something else there. On a separate note, I'm not sure exactly what cool aberration/undead/weirdness themed items are also relatively high optimization. Maybe the skin of kaletor, the item of boosting wild shape that also makes you super smelly. Maybe combine that with a shadow cloak, both to emphasize the darker elements of the character, and to show off item combination rules. Yeah, that sounds cool.

[Darrin]

I mean, Darrin, just look at what some of the stuff on that list would actually mean. Core summoner might as well just read, "Take augment summoning."


Yes, that covers feats at 1st/3rd/6th, but what do you do with 9th/12th/15th/18th? It doesn't have to be extensive, but you can just list the most effective feat loadouts for the typical roles.



The holt warden might as well just be that, plus contemplative. And the hydra thing is mostly just frozen wild shape.


Indeed. But I'd still want to know which feat selections beyond that make me the best possible cryohydra. IUS? Spring Attack? Shape Soulmeld/Open Least Chakra: Worg Pelt + Improved Trip + Knock-Down?



Arbitrary question time: First, does that seem to be the optimal layout for such a section?


I think there should still room for a "quick pick" section where I could say, "Show me a Core Druid 20 with the best feat picks", or "Show me the UberSummoner 20 with all the bells and whistles". Maybe just list the feat selections. Something where if I have a pickup game in 10 minutes, I can take a build stub and scribble out a character sheet really quickly, and worry about personalizing it later.



Finally, I know what most of those builds are, cause it's obvious, but what's Drunkey Kong and Arcane Hydrophant? I'm half inclined to think the latter is a typo, but I prefer to imagine a world where there exist some synergies between theurging and water magic, and with the former, I guess there's it could be referring to the whole thumb'd creature with a quarterstaff plan, but that seems entirely spell focused, and if drunkness actually comes in anywhere that that excites me.


I was trying to come up with a clever name for Monk 1/Druid 19. Originally I put down Monkeyzilla, then Dronkey Kong, then that became Drunkey Kong. And now that I think about it... I am intrigued. How about:

Race: Human, Azurin, Hadozee, or Strongheart Halfling
Stub: Monk 1/Druid 5/Drunken Master 2/Druid +12
Feats: Great Fortitude (1st), Dodge (1st), IUS (1st), Power Attack (1st), Shape Soulmeld: Impulse Boots (3rd), Open Least Chakra: Feat (6th), Natural Spell (9th), Improved Bull Rush (12th), Shock Trooper (15th), Leap Attack (18th)

In Legendary Ape form, you can wield a two-handed weapon... maybe a banana tree or a big wooden barrel full of rum. Add some alchemical capsules to the wooden barrel so you can light it on fire. Needs some Pounce, so maybe a add wild/beastskin buckler of some sort with a wand of lion's charge in there. With the "Stagger" ability, you can charge every round as you don't have to move in a straight line. Add a large necktie and you should be ready to go bananas.

This might work better with one of the dinosaur forms... is there any rule anywhere that says a T-rex can't wield a greatclub?

And yes, the Arcane Hydrophant was a typo, but now that I'm thinking about it... I am intrigued. Maybe do something with a water elemental companion/familiar? I will have to do noodle this around a bit more.

I forgot to mention my Jellobomber build... that's mostly Druid. Hmm. If I reworked it without the Incarnate levels, could probably still get 9th level spells out of it. Hmm... Worshipping Zargon (Elder Evil) gets me Willing Deformity, so put Shape Soulmeld: Elder Spirit, take Open Least Chakra: Crown at 12th. Shape Soulmeld: Planar Chasuble at 15th. Still need flight, though... fire wings doesn't allow anything heavier than a light load. Master air works, but the duration is awfully short. Cloud-walkers should work, 60' (perfect) for 10 min/CL. So that's somewhat functional by ECL 16ish.

Race: Silverbrow Human
Stub: Druid 9/Thrall of Juiblix 3/Druid +8
ACFs: Rootwalker
Feats: Aberrant Blood (1st), Natural Heavyweight (1st), Shape Soulmeld: Planar Chasuble (3rd), Aberrant Wild Shape (6th), Willing Deformity (Zargon), Thrall of Juiblex (9th), Shape Soulmeld: Elder Spirit (12th), Open Least Chakra: Crown (15th), Eagle's Wings (18th)

[eggynack]

Yes, that covers feats at 1st/3rd/6th, but what do you do with 9th/12th/15th/18th? It doesn't have to be extensive, but you can just list the most effective feat loadouts for the typical roles.
Yeah, but the overall impact of that is that there'd be one core druid, rather than three. Which seems possible. The only difference between the core summoner and some core melee thing would probably be when exactly you take multiattack.


Indeed. But I'd still want to know which feat selections beyond that make me the best possible cryohydra. IUS? Spring Attack? Shape Soulmeld/Open Least Chakra: Worg Pelt + Improved Trip + Knock-Down?

The problem with that is that none of those things is liable to actually go on a "best" cryohydra. Cryohydras are really really good at hitting things hard. You don't need a bunch of feats to improve that. So, the best cryohydra build is probably a completely standard druid of some other type that happens to have frozen wild shape at 15th. Also, a druid build that only comes into itself at 15th is kinda weird. Come to think of it, a lot of the emphasis here would probably be on simply accelerating out the cryohydra, rather than trying to improve what's there. I dunno if that qualifies as a "build" though.


I think there should still room for a "quick pick" section where I could say, "Show me a Core Druid 20 with the best feat picks", or "Show me the UberSummoner 20 with all the bells and whistles". Maybe just list the feat selections. Something where if I have a pickup game in 10 minutes, I can take a build stub and scribble out a character sheet really quickly, and worry about personalizing it later.

That sounds plausible. In any case, any progress on this kinda stuff would probably have to wait until I'm done with the bigger fancy build. The notion of optimizing a build for maximum educational value is a pretty interesting one.


I was trying to come up with a clever name for Monk 1/Druid 19. Originally I put down Monkeyzilla, then Dronkey Kong, then that became Drunkey Kong. And now that I think about it... I am intrigued. How about:

Race: Human, Azurin, Hadozee, or Strongheart Halfling
Stub: Monk 1/Druid 5/Drunken Master 2/Druid +12
Feats: Great Fortitude (1st), Dodge (1st), IUS (1st), Power Attack (1st), Shape Soulmeld: Impulse Boots (3rd), Open Least Chakra: Feat (6th), Natural Spell (9th), Improved Bull Rush (12th), Shock Trooper (15th), Leap Attack (18th)

In Legendary Ape form, you can wield a two-handed weapon... maybe a banana tree or a big wooden barrel full of rum. Add some alchemical capsules to the wooden barrel so you can light it on fire. Needs some Pounce, so maybe a add wild/beastskin buckler of some sort with a wand of lion's charge in there. With the "Stagger" ability, you can charge every round as you don't have to move in a straight line. Add a large necktie and you should be ready to go bananas.
Yeah, that's quite a bit like what I'd thought it'd look like. Dunno how good it is, but it's certainly cool.


This might work better with one of the dinosaur forms... is there any rule anywhere that says a T-rex can't wield a greatclub?
I'd be surprised if claws could manage it, but you could always run it with fangshields druid subsitution levels to get hands.


And yes, the Arcane Hydrophant was a typo, but now that I'm thinking about it... I am intrigued. Maybe do something with a water elemental companion/familiar? I will have to do noodle this around a bit more.
Maybe. The ideal would be something particularly optimal that comes from using water stuff in combination with hierophant stuff. Dunno that such a thing exists, but the name could make looking worth it. The cheap solution, just cramming as much water theming as possible into a hierophant build, is always available, but it almost seems like a disservice to the concept.



I forgot to mention my Jellobomber build... that's mostly Druid. Hmm. If I reworked it without the Incarnate levels, could probably still get 9th level spells out of it. Hmm... Worshipping Zargon (Elder Evil) gets me Willing Deformity, so put Shape Soulmeld: Elder Spirit, take Open Least Chakra: Crown at 12th. Shape Soulmeld: Planar Chasuble at 15th. Still need flight, though... fire wings doesn't allow anything heavier than a light load. Master air works, but the duration is awfully short. Cloud-walkers should work, 60' (perfect) for 10 min/CL. So that's somewhat functional by ECL 16ish.
Race: Silverbrow Human
Stub: Druid 9/Thrall of Juiblix 3/Druid +8
ACFs: Rootwalker
Feats: Aberrant Blood (1st), Natural Heavyweight (1st), Shape Soulmeld: Planar Chasuble (3rd), Aberrant Wild Shape (6th), Willing Deformity (Zargon), Thrall of Juiblex (9th), Shape Soulmeld: Elder Spirit (12th), Open Least Chakra: Crown (15th), Eagle's Wings (18th)
That's an interesting one; might be worth looking into. Ultimately though, there's probably some kinda upward limit on how many builds would be ditching caster levels, lest the build section fall too far out of phase with the rest of the handbook. Even if I wind up with a buncha builds, the set'd probably go one MoMF, one hierophant, and then maybe a melee oriented build like this one or one of the ones mentioned above.

[Endarire]

What about a Druid build focused on shillelagh + brambles + spikes + quarterstaff/club? Best form is probably Legendary Ape.

[eggynack]

What about a Druid build focused on shillelagh + brambles + spikes + quarterstaff/club? Best form is probably Legendary Ape.
Problem with something like that is that there's virtually nothing on the build end, and I probably don't want to venture into the day to day stuff outside of the one big build I'm developing. Not even that much worth talking about on the daily side, especially cause I don't much like brambles or spikes. Only thing that'd be halfway interesting to note is fangshields druid substitution levels to allow for normally unhanded forms. Speaking of, status update on what I'm now terming "The Unnatural Druid", I have the feats up to 12th level, and the introduction and a bit of animal companion stuff for the daily side. So, decent amount complete, but it's a ways away from being done given that I'm making use of most elements of a druid.

[AnachroNinja]

I noticed the animal companion section of your guide doesn't include dire wolves. Just thought I'd mention it, also curious about your thoughts on them. They seem to be strictly inferior to brown bears unfortunately.

[eggynack]

I noticed the animal companion section of your guide doesn't include dire wolves. Just thought I'd mention it, also curious about your thoughts on them. They seem to be strictly inferior to brown bears unfortunately.
That seems like a pretty good justification for non-inclusion right there, given that brown bears aren't that crazy. Hadn't thought about it too much, to be honest, but a really quick and easy metric is the fact that using a dire wolf takes you all the way from SNA IV to SNA III, where SNA IV isn't even the top of the curve. And, as you note, that separation is a justified one. Really, the only thing making the dire wolf interesting is the most obvious aspect, tripping, but I don't think they have enough attacks, reach, or general AoO ability to make that any amount more interesting than grapple. That comparison between tripping and grapple on non-PC's might be an interesting one in and of itself, which may in turn justify an entry. The thing that possibly makes that not worth it is that I don't know that it generalizes well. If I'm using the platform of dire wolves to talk about nothing but dire wolves, because there's very little tripping otherwise, then that's probably not worth inclusion where a broader claim about some other not intrinsically potent animal companions with trip would be possibly inclusion-worthy.

Edit: Separate note, probably going to put in craft contingent and maybe the ripper from cityscape in there at some point. The former seems like a pretty clear gap in feat inclusion, and the latter is kinda interesting.

Double-edit: Just finished craft contingent spell. Not sure when the other entry will happen, but craft seemed pretty important.

[eggynack]

Not much to report on the unnatural druid, but I just updated the MoMF entry to include the fact that the hobgoblin warsoul and the kuo-toa exalted whip grant 9th level wizard casting and 8th level cleric casting respectively. If you really push it, going druid 7/MoMF 3, you can pretty much pretend to be a mystic theurge for a couple of levels, before you fall behind even that level of casting power. Also, mentioned this in the entry, but should probably mention it here too. Hobgoblin warsouls also get that weird ability that keeps popping up where you just always have a set of minions that support you fanatically. It's really weird ability templating, because why is there no mechanism by which these creatures get these follower creatures (it's because they're built as encounters, not forms, of course, but it's weird), and, as is so often the case, somewhat exploitable templating.

Anyway, for anyone interested, next up is probably something out of a list of possible entries I built up. Specifically, a pile of mostly corrupt BoVD spells, which are consume likeness, claws of the savage, evil weather, forbidden speech, preserve organ, and seething eyebane, and also the ripper, which is a creature from cityscape. Consume likeness seems to me like the most interesting of those, because it's this weird permanent disguise self that happens to have this secondary ability to get wings or gills, and then if I add that then I have two preserve organ targets, so that'll pop in around the same time. Claws of the savage is notably better than I'd previously given credit for, because I'd thought of it as, y'know, a way to get claw attacks, when it now strikes me more like shillelagh for claws, which is interesting. So, yeah, that's the stuff I have listed out, which is all hanging out on a doc alongside some research I was doing on planar touchstone, and that druid build. Could always do something completely unrelated to any of that stuff, but some of this stuff is interesting. Consume likeness especially. That spell is super weird.

[Bullet06320]

https://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/fx20011025a
Create Frenzy Dog
here's something for evil druids I noticed, that haven't seen mentioned yet

[eggynack]

https://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/fx20011025a
Create Frenzy Dog
here's something for evil druids I noticed, that haven't seen mentioned yet
Not sure that's actually useful, but it's pretty interesting. There are basically three modes here, and none of them work all that well. The first is hitting your animal companion, which doesn't work because swapping a companion into a magical beast makes it not a companion. Second mode would be hitting yourself with it, which is funny apart from the part where you're ditching all your feats, and also that HD thing. I do find it amusing that you can totally do that if you want, because aspect of the wolf happens to make you a wolf in addition to making you an animal. Third mode is the intended mode, hitting random creatures of the forest, but how much utility is there to arbitrary vicious creatures? They're not apparently under your control, so they're not that effective as minions or guardians, and they're not that strong, so you're not making the area much more dangerous. One could justify it as doing evil, but, honestly, it's not that much evil. You could just tornado or blizzard the area repeatedly and get better results. I do love anything instantaneous though. I feel like there's some potential to this thing that I'm missing.

[Bullet06320]

the web archives are an interesting place and have all sorts of stuff buried in there, that years later we are still looking at and discussing

and besides your guide wouldn't be complete without at least a mention of it, even if its subpar. lol

[eggynack]

the web archives are an interesting place and have all sorts of stuff buried in there, that years later we are still looking at and discussing
I certainly agree with that. Tons of great handbook stuff has web sources. In fact, I added some material from the fabulous cats web article pretty recently.


and besides your guide wouldn't be complete without at least a mention of it, even if its subpar. lol
The heuristic I follow for thing addition is that a thing added should be either useful in some sense, or useless despite clear claims to the contrary. There's obviously some room for stuff that doesn't fit in those categories, but I don't think that things should be added by the sole criteria that they're there and accessible to druids. There has to be a reason, even if that reason is something stupid like a funny name. Create frenzy dog is kinda weird and amusing, so it could pick up a weird and amusing slot, but my problem with that is that it's such a weirdly passive spell. You just say, "Here, have some vicious dogs, nature," and you get no apparent benefit, as even the benefit of arbitrary chaos will likely be lost in the noise of usual violence. So, if I were to add it now, I guess it'd be for how strangely useless it is,

[daremetoidareyo]

Child of Winter: Apply frenzy dog to vermin? Check my vermin guide: in sig!

Frenzy dog gives you survival as a class skill and extra HD! Check my survival guide: in sig

Check my animal guide: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19Xxes06ND55Jvd-cMtIAAhQze4Kb_TcABMCKe7Lb1ZQ/pubhtml

[eggynack]

Child of Winter: Apply frenzy dog to vermin?
That still doesn't get past the main problem with this spell, which is that it doesn't do all that much. If it did something, that'd be worth optimizing, but it doesn't seem to do anything.


Frenzy dog gives you survival as a class skill and extra HD!
Does "you" refer to the druid? Because a druid would be down HD, because they get shrunk to 5 HD, and they'd lose skills, because the spell allows a total of four skills, and you lose feats, because such is the spell. It seems like really heavy downside. One could imagine really heavy melee builds that could take advantage of the bonuses here, but that plan is stymied by the really high level of the spell and the seemingly fixed HD.

[daremetoidareyo]

That still doesn't get past the main problem with this spell, which is that it doesn't do all that much. If it did something, that'd be worth optimizing, but it doesn't seem to do anything.

Does "you" refer to the druid? Because a druid would be down HD, because they get shrunk to 5 HD, and they'd lose skills, because the spell allows a total of four skills, and you lose feats, because such is the spell. It seems like really heavy downside. One could imagine really heavy melee builds that could take advantage of the bonuses here, but that plan is stymied by the really high level of the spell and the seemingly fixed HD.

No, of course it doesn't apply to the druid. It applies to all the little critters of the forest. Which now all have ranks in survival. (So few animals have ranks in that!) These animals can now apply mud armor to themselves with a DC 10 survival check. And that armor can have all sorts of attachments added to it. With the proper application of spells and survival skill, start feeding people with in urban settings or otherwise. With the right handle animal checks and training, Animals with track can be assisted with animals that have scent.

Further, for snakes, they are now 5HD. Now they are eligible for teamwork feats. One of those teamwork feats, superior team effort, and the teamwork benefit animal trick can be combined with epic skill level feats (balance)! Now train a few teams of medium vipers in the teamwork benefit, Cast mass reduce animal, strap on a body suit full of size medium snakes and have them skill assist you on your balance check to walk on air.

Further, the template boosts animal charisma way up for some reason. Maybe there is a sorcery feat that can be dark chaos shuffled in?

[eggynack]

No, of course it doesn't apply to the druid. It applies to all the little critters of the forest. Which now all have ranks in survival. (So few animals have ranks in that!) These animals can now apply mud armor to themselves with a DC 10 survival check. And that armor can have all sorts of attachments added to it. With the proper application of spells and survival skill, start feeding people with in urban settings or otherwise. With the right handle animal checks and training, Animals with track can be assisted with animals that have scent.

Further, for snakes, they are now 5HD. Now they are eligible for teamwork feats. One of those teamwork feats, superior team effort, and the teamwork benefit animal trick can be combined with epic skill level feats (balance)! Now train a few teams of medium vipers in the teamwork benefit, Cast mass reduce animal, strap on a body suit full of size medium snakes and have them skill assist you on your balance check to walk on air.
The real problem here isn't about their strict power level. It's that create frenzy dog originally had the premise that you were going to use it on your animal friendship'd animals, and thus have a friendly vicious attacker, but that's not really a spell anymore, so the vicious attacker mostly just attacks viciously. What you'd want to do, I suppose, is make use of charm animal, but that doesn't seem to be as strong of a connection. It might work, however.

[Bullet06320]

No, of course it doesn't apply to the druid. It applies to all the little critters of the forest. Which now all have ranks in survival. (So few animals have ranks in that!) These animals can now apply mud armor to themselves with a DC 10 survival check. And that armor can have all sorts of attachments added to it. With the proper application of spells and survival skill, start feeding people with in urban settings or otherwise. With the right handle animal checks and training, Animals with track can be assisted with animals that have scent.

Further, for snakes, they are now 5HD. Now they are eligible for teamwork feats. One of those teamwork feats, superior team effort, and the teamwork benefit animal trick can be combined with epic skill level feats (balance)! Now train a few teams of medium vipers in the teamwork benefit, Cast mass reduce animal, strap on a body suit full of size medium snakes and have them skill assist you on your balance check to walk on air.

Further, the template boosts animal charisma way up for some reason. Maybe there is a sorcery feat that can be dark chaos shuffled in?

lol, I love it

all the weird things we can dream up

@ eggynack maybe Create Frenzy Dog is not a great option, or the most optimized option, but it is an option that a creative Dm or player can use to make their game more fun and interesting. IMO all options should be included, allowing others to choose for them self the best course of things at their table

[eggynack]

@ eggynack maybe Create Frenzy Dog is not a great option, or the most optimized option, but it is an option that a creative Dm or player can use to make their game more fun and interesting. IMO all options should be included, allowing others to choose for them self the best course of things at their table
My initial impression was based on the text of the spell and template. If, as the initial text of the monsters implies, you can get these things friendly to you, then they're perfectly serviceable minionmancy, if a bit weak for the level and reliant on finding low HD animals. If you can't control them, because animal friendship doesn't exist and dominate animal has a stupidly short duration, then I don't see how it's fun or interesting to set arbitrary creatures loose into nature where they'll attack stuff that you have little to no way of knowing about. There might be vague satisfaction to that, but you're just so far removed from it.

Separately, a point on handbook philosophy. I don't think all options should be included. At all. Including all options would create a handbook as long as or longer than the books it's referencing. There's just no point to it. The resource that allows people to choose for themselves the best course of action for their druid without hand holding already exists. It's called the game's source books. To that end, my handbook is missing an absolute ton of spells and options, totally on purpose. As a telling example, my handbook has twelve 9th level spells in it, and there are ten 9th's in core alone. What value would I truly add by having cure critical wounds, mass? Or the vast majority of HP healing spells, actually. This isn't a question of laziness or lack of spell-knowledge. I simply think that a handbook with spells that I think people should know about is more useful than one with all spells indiscriminately. I make a few exceptions in small categories, like initiate feats or ACF's, because just about all of those have some theoretical value-add for a druid, and because I find them interesting, but I think elimination, whittling things down to the best form, is a primary goal in handbook construction.

All this to say, I may add this spell, or I may not, but if I do it will be because it is worth adding. Not because it's a spell that can be cast by a druid.

[Vizzerdrix]

Ive been toying around with the watch spider. Found it makes a good mount for small druids, and does well with the feats that let a critter spit their venom.

Are you interested in Dragon mag stuff? I have issues that contain the plant companion and monsterous companions.

[eggynack]

Ive been toying around with the watch spider. Found it makes a good mount for small druids, and does well with the feats that let a critter spit their venom.
Yeah, it's kinda weak for anything resembling combat, but there's some utility there.


Are you interested in Dragon mag stuff? I have issues that contain the plant companion and monsterous companions.
I've gone through those sources, yeah. I'm aware of plant companion, but it seems a bit weak and has like a billion moving pieces. If there's a combination that makes it good, it'd be worth knowing about. Tricky part of it is that I'd probably have to rate each ability individually. Not that that strictly precludes inclusion, but it's a lot of work and handbook space for something that's probably weaker than normal companions. As for monstrous, I wasn't sure if I'd seen it, but now that I've looked I'm pretty sure I have. It's appealing on the surface, but the creatures you're getting aren't that exciting, and the fact that you have to wine and dine your companion reduces the utility by a whole lot. I'll take another look at the possible creatures though.

[eggynack]

Added a bunch of stuff. Evil weather, consume likeness, and preserve organ as planned. I also added some information to singer of concordance, because that class apparently gifts you with a nearly private demiplane that you get a bunch of benefits from. You need ten levels to get easy transportation there, but you only need one to know where the demiplane is hanging out and get a connection with it.

[Blackhawk748]

I don't see a section on Druids and Divination. I mean i know its usually the purview of the other full casters but i would be interested to see how Druids go about being a Diviner. I point this out as im currently making an Arcane Hierophant focused on Divining and i cant really find any info on Druids and how they do it, so this would be very helpful.

[eggynack]

I don't see a section on Druids and Divination. I mean i know its usually the purview of the other full casters but i would be interested to see how Druids go about being a Diviner. I point this out as im currently making an Arcane Hierophant focused on Divining and i can't really find any info on Druids and how they do it, so this would be very helpful.
There's actually a mini-section on that hanging out in the basics, particularly the sage entry under filling roles. I think I have most of the interesting options there, though it's possible there's something I forgot to put there. Y'know, some fey accessible through fey ring that happens to have some divination, with a siabrie obviously having something at the very least. Actually, the neutral mode of fey ring has a question asking component, so that's vaguely interesting. Not, like, actually useful levels of interesting, but it's a thing. A thing that might really merit inclusion in that entry is inquisition, which is like a better zone of truth. There's a bit of area where the druid's offerings don't perfectly overlap with the wizard's, like commune with nature/earth, but the wizard half is going to be pulling a lot of the weight here.

[Blackhawk748]

There's actually a mini-section on that hanging out in the basics, particularly the sage entry under filling roles. I think I have most of the interesting options there, though it's possible there's something I forgot to put there. Y'know, some fey accessible through fey ring that happens to have some divination, with a siabrie obviously having something at the very least. Actually, the neutral mode of fey ring has a question asking component, so that's vaguely interesting. Not, like, actually useful levels of interesting, but it's a thing. A thing that might really merit inclusion in that entry is inquisition, which is like a better zone of truth. There's a bit of area where the druid's offerings don't perfectly overlap with the wizard's, like commune with nature/earth, but the wizard half is going to be pulling a lot of the weight here.

Ah neat. I apparently missed that, so ill go and poke around there. Probably gonna have to add Fey Ring to the list of spells to use.

[eggynack]

Ah neat. I apparently missed that, so ill go and poke around there. Probably gonna have to add Fey Ring to the list of spells to use.
Was gonna say that that was just an arbitrary guess, but it looks like you can get divination at least from fey ring, and probably others. Minionmancy is neat. This has some commonalities with the situation I was in with my last post, where I thought talking about druid divinations was a nifty idea that'd be hard to find a place for, before I remembered that such an entry already existed. Life is odd sometimes.

[taut]

Wow, this guide is phenomenal. In fact, I finally joined this site simply to say that. Thank you!


A couple questions, one more of a suggestion, the other more of a critique:

1) Doesn't Rapid Spell deserve a little verbiage of at least the black variety?

I used it on my last summoner (a spirit shaman so different but in the ballpark-ish) and I think I would also recommend it on a druid based summoner. It doesn't work with spontaneous summoning of course, but it synergizes well with Ring of the Beast and Rod of Metamagic Quicken as long as you prepare a slot or three for that purpose. Combined with Ra-cheesi Elemental summoning you can leave a 45d6 shaped hole in your opponents as a swift appetizer before you serve up your standard action. Also, this can work well with Versatile Spell caster (see my next question) to give you an extra high level slot or two as fuel for the madness. The lack of facility with spontaneous summons is a drag, but if you've built around a strong summoning concept then you are surely going to be using summons as a means to solve your adventuring problems on a pretty regular basis, so it's not a big loss to have a few of them prepared.

2) Versatile Spellcaster - I don't think that feat means what you think it does...

...but opinions do vary.

As I read (and have usually played) this feat, the effect on spellcasters who normally prepare spells (but qualify through the cleric/druid loophole) is that you can lose two slots in order to generate an empty prepared-spell slot which can then be filled in the usual fashion for prepared-spell slots.

The RAW interpretation I use relies on the fact (opinion) that "Benefit: You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher" does NOT grant you spontaneous casting abilities. It assumes that you already have such an ability for obvious reasons, but the benefit granted by the feat does not specifically grant such a thing. In other words, it gives you a higher-level slot, but it does not grant you a new means by which to use slots. The confusion is created by the fact that the feat was intended to apply to spontaneous slots, but that doesn't give you license to grab a new means of casting spells that is not explicitly granted.

So, one could presumably use the feat to drop two slots and spontaneously cast a higher level spell that you could already spontaneously cast...e.g. a Summon Natures Ally spell, or you could do this sort of thing during spell preparation and use the newly created higher level slot to prepare a higher level spell.

I suspect most people either play it the way you specify in the guide, or simply don't allow it at all...but if you think it through carefully you might find yourself agreeing that the above is both more technically correct by RAW, and more balanced.

Or you might tell me to shut up and go write my own damn guide :P

Thanks again for this impressive piece of work!

[Troacctid]

Well, the real reason why you don't use Versatile Spellcaster on druids is cuz they don't have spells known, so they can't normally cast spells off it. But it's pretty stellar on a spontaneous druid.

[eggynack]

Wow, this guide is phenomenal. In fact, I finally joined this site simply to say that. Thank you!

Glad ya liked it.


1) Doesn't Rapid Spell deserve a little verbiage of at least the black variety?

I used it on my last summoner (a spirit shaman so different but in the ballpark-ish) and I think I would also recommend it on a druid based summoner. It doesn't work with spontaneous summoning of course, but it synergizes well with Ring of the Beast and Rod of Metamagic Quicken as long as you prepare a slot or three for that purpose. Combined with Ra-cheesi Elemental summoning you can leave a 45d6 shaped hole in your opponents as a swift appetizer before you serve up your standard action. Also, this can work well with Versatile Spell caster (see my next question) to give you an extra high level slot or two as fuel for the madness.

I think there're just too many costs associated. You're losing a feat, the versatility of a spell slot, and a spell level. The impact of the second two things is that you shouldn't necessarily be using the feat if you have it, and that makes the feat cost really harsh. Basic summoning math dictates that a summoning of one level higher is about twice as powerful, due to the fact that any higher level summons you use can become an average of two summons of a lower level, and you're getting standard action use in exchange. The ability to just not prepare these things is so huge too, it seems wrong in some fashion to not take advantage of it. I'm inclined to think that such a trade isn't worth it, especially because alternatives exist. Golden desert honey and the chronocharm of the uncaring archmage are two of the better ones, doing the job in a way that's probably better. The former is rather expensive, but it does exactly what you want as opposed to some substitute, and the latter is level limited, but it's super cheap and efficient. There's also the shifter method, if you want to really invest. All in all, rapid spell just seems like the worst way to accomplish this goal, one that doesn't really have the outcome you want out of such a thing.


2) Versatile Spellcaster - I don't think that feat means what you think it does...

...but opinions do vary.

As I read (and have usually played) this feat, the effect on spellcasters who normally prepare spells (but qualify through the cleric/druid loophole) is that you can lose two slots in order to generate an empty prepared-spell slot which can then be filled in the usual fashion for prepared-spell slots.

The RAW interpretation I use relies on the fact (opinion) that "Benefit: You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher" does NOT grant you spontaneous casting abilities. It assumes that you already have such an ability for obvious reasons, but the benefit granted by the feat does not specifically grant such a thing. In other words, it gives you a higher-level slot, but it does not grant you a new means to use slots.

So, one could presumably use the feat to drop two slots and spontaneously cast a spell that you could already spontaneously cast...e.g. a Summon Natures Ally spell, or you could do this sort of thing during spell preparation and use the newly created higher level slot to prepare a higher level spell.

I suspect most people either play it the way you specify in the guide, or simply don't allow it all...but if you think it through carefully you might find yourself agreeing that the above is both more technically correct by RAW, and more balanced.
I don't really see how that reading is parsimonious with the text as it exists. You're casting the new spell through the feat. You don't need some sort of weird other casting to use it, because the feat is providing the method. I mean, if we're getting technical here, the thing granted by versatile spellcaster isn't actually spontaneous casting. You're just happening to do something that acts akin to that ability in most relevant respects. A more convincing argument I've seen against the feat's working is that a druid may not "know" any spells, but I don't think there's all that much evidence to support the idea of "know" as a term defined that rigorously.

Edit:
Well, the real reason why you don't use Versatile Spellcaster on druids is cuz they don't have spells known, so they can't normally cast spells off it. But it's pretty stellar on a spontaneous druid.
Wizards actually have the notion of "knowing" a spell ingrained into their operation too, so it's definitely not just a spontaneity thing. The real questions, then, are whether a wizard's knowledge of their spells is substantially different from how a druid does spell stuff, and whether the absence of the "know" text on druids has absolute rules implications on whether they do, in fact, know spells.

[taut]

I disagree about Rapid Spell's utility

Well, I won't argue with the expert (too much), but if you really disagree then shouldn't you put it there in RED to warn people off? Seriously though, I've played with the feat and never had the regrets you're expressing. Like I said, if you built a summoning Druid and have the appropriate support for the feat, it's actually pretty strong. If you just toss it into a build with no plan around it, then yeah, it sort of sucks. Of course that's true with the majority of feats.


I disagree about Versatile Spellcaster.

Yeah, figured you would but thought I would throw it out there. Agree to disagree.

[Troacctid]

Divine casters like clerics, druids, and paladins don't have spells known. They can just prepare any spell from their class spell list. See the definition of a known spell (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_knownspell).

[eggynack]

Well, I won't argue with the expert (too much), but if you really disagree then shouldn't you put it there in RED to warn people off? Seriously though, I've played with the feat and never had the regrets you're expressing. Like I said, if you built a summoning Druid and have the appropriate support for the feat, it's actually pretty strong. If you just toss it into a build with no plan around it, then yeah, it sort of sucks. Of course that's true with the majority of feats.
I mean, if you were spirit shamaning, then you'd be losing the spontaneity loss downside, and spirit shaman feats are way less interesting, so you'd be losing a lot of that downside too. You even get a bit more room for the item use stuff you were talking about, because wild shape items can be pretty sweet. It's a lot of things. If it does have a genuine appeal though, you may be correct about putting it in with a bad rating. Really, it's just kinda okay. It's doing this halfway decent thing in a halfway decent way, and while it's not putting you too far behind, the associated opportunity costs are annoying. It feels a lot like imbued summoning to me, in a lot of separate respects, though definitely at least somewhat better. I might get around to it at some point. Y'know what might actually make an interesting combination with it is blizzard. Now that spell is sweet business.

Edit:
Divine casters like clerics, druids, and paladins don't have spells known. They can just prepare any spell from their class spell list. See the definition of a known spell (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_knownspell).
Fair enough. Didn't know there was a fancy glossary entry for that one.

Double-edit: Is it weird that I now want to put in the rapid spell thing, not because it would necessarily make sense or because I'm in the mood to organize my thoughts from that rapid spell post I just made, but because I arbitrarily want to maintain parity with the handbook's old length? Did the same thing pretty recently, taking out some wild shape thing and putting in that weird aberration ooze form. I like that form and all, cause it's oozy and interesting, but there's a decent chance I would have put more consideration into whether or not it's worth adding at any other time. Maybe it's just that I don't want folks to have less content or something. I'd probably add something like seething eyebane first though. That spell is cool. It's how druids do permanent blindness and such. Doesn't look like remove blindness works on it, cause you're exploding the eyes. Could this be that fabled purpose for the spell regeneration?

[taut]

Talkin bout Rapid Spell

I'd never take Augment Elemental or Beckon the Frozen as those feats offer an incremental increase in something you're already doing (summon beat-stick) and it's a low value increment at that. But I'm glad they're in the guide, nonetheless.

Rapid Spell on the other hand, in at least some fairly viable context for a reasonable Druid, can allow you to multiply your power through gains in action economy. (Quickenening a summons, then casting another summon on the same round is way more powerful than either of the two feats mentioned above).

If you have Greenbound Summon and Ra-cheesi summon already, then casting summon spells is something your good at. So making it possible to do the thing you're good at twice per round is actually a big jump in power.

Meh, whatever floats your boat.

[eggynack]

I'd never take Augment Elemental or Beckon the Frozen as those feats offer an incremental increase in something you're already doing (summon beat-stick) and it's a low value increment at that. But I'm glad they're in the guide, nonetheless.
True, but they're relatively cheap, at least. They work well with what druids like to do, which is spontaneous summoning. The core question for rapid spell, then, is whether it's actually an upgrade at all. If it's not, then augment elemental obviously deserves the spot over it. That you can just pile all of these decently sized bonuses onto this ability you always have in the background is a neat thing.


Rapid Spell on the other hand, in at least some fairly viable context for a reasonable Druid, can allow you to multiply your power through gains in action economy. (Quickenening a summons, then casting another summon on the same round is way more powerful than either of the two feats mentioned above).
The feat isn't exactly multiplying power here. The really expensive rod is, and we know this to be the case because you could still be doubling down on spells per turn. They just wouldn't be summoning spells. It's not like summoning is all that much more powerful than other things you're doing. In fact, it may well be less powerful in a lot of cases. What summoning brings to the table is versatility and ready access, as well as sheer face beating ability, and using rapid spell is sacrificing all three for this other benefit. In a weird sense, the disadvantage of rapid spell is that it turns SNA into all your other spells. Summoning has this list of advantages over here, and other spells have this other list of advantages over there, and rapid spell trades out SNA advantages for other spell advantages.



If you have Greenbound Summon and Ra-cheesi summon already, then casting summon spells is something your good at. So making it possible to do the thing you're good at twice per round is actually a big jump in power.
But, again, you can already do that otherwise if you need to. Golden desert honey is expensive, but not insanely so, and it's a thing you can bust out in moments where you need such an effect. And however good you get at summoning, it's not going to outvalue normal spells by that wide a margin.

[taut]

True, but they're relatively cheap, at least. They work well with what druids like to do, which is spontaneous summoning. The core question for rapid spell, then, is whether it's actually an upgrade at all. If it's not, then augment elemental obviously deserves the spot over it. That you can just pile all of these decently sized bonuses onto this ability you always have in the background is a neat thing.

The feat isn't exactly multiplying power here. The really expensive rod is, and we know this to be the case because you could still be doubling down on spells per turn. They just wouldn't be summoning spells. It's not like summoning is all that much more powerful than other things you're doing. In fact, it may well be less powerful in a lot of cases. What summoning brings to the table is versatility and ready access, as well as sheer face beating ability, and using rapid spell is sacrificing all three for this other benefit. In a weird sense, the disadvantage of rapid spell is that it turns SNA into all your other spells. Summoning has this list of advantages over here, and other spells have this other list of advantages over there, and rapid spell trades out SNA advantages for other spell advantages.


But, again, you can already do that otherwise if you need to. Golden desert honey is expensive, but not insanely so, and it's a thing you can bust out in moments where you need such an effect. And however good you get at summoning, it's not going to outvalue normal spells by that wide a margin.


I always forget about Golden Desert Honey because the group we play with doesn't use the Optional Material component rules...yeah, if you have that then the feat is a lot less compelling. I see what you mean in that case, I doubt I would take the feat if I could use the honey.

[eggynack]

I always forget about Golden Desert Honey because the group we play with doesn't use the Optional Material component rules...yeah, if you have that then the feat is a lot less compelling. I see what you mean in that case, I doubt I would take the feat if I could use the honey.
For what it's worth, I don't think that the optional components are optional in the sense that you choose whether they exist or not. I think they're optional in the sense that a caster can choose whether or not to use them, as opposed to standard components which are mandatory. As a result, they should be about as common as any other alchemical item.

[eggynack]

First thing, seething eyebane. That spell is very strong for its level, though, as is so frequently the case with corrupt spells, the cost is very high as well. My entry on this one came out maybe too long, but it's probably fine. Second, raptor's sight, from races of the wild. Why wasn't it in the handbook before? I have no idea. It's very good, maybe edging towards blue. Great duration, great effect, great level. Not like I haven't looked through the source. So it goes. Third thing, big error correction. Golden desert honey is 300 GP rather than 600 GP, but pushing in the exact opposite direction is the fact that you need one unit/spell level. So, more expensive than I thought in most cases, but not really enough to make it not good. Both issues have been rectified in the price thing for golden desert honey, and the latter issue also for angel dust.

[Darrin]

Golden desert honey is 300 GP rather than 600 GP, but pushing in the exact opposite direction is the fact that you need one unit/spell level. So, more expensive than I thought in most cases, but not really enough to make it not good. Both issues have been rectified in the price thing for golden desert honey, and the latter issue also for angel dust.

You can cut the cost by using a Chaos Flask for only 100 GP. I'm a little fuzzy on how many doses it makes, but if we assume a dose is one ounce, then half a pound would be 8 doses. That should be more than enough for one battle.

[eggynack]

You can cut the cost by using a Chaos Flask for only 100 GP. I'm a little fuzzy on how many doses it makes, but if we assume a dose is one ounce, then half a pound would be 8 doses. That should be more than enough for one battle.
That does seem like a good method. Even if you needed to use one flask per component, and then failed the check half the time, it'd still be cheaper than doing it normally. And those are two really harsh assumptions.

Edit: Golden desert honey is of negligible weight, so if that's the only limiting factor then it works for any number of doses. The big problem is that it looks like a chaos flask can only make a single object, and golden desert honey is actually a solid, so you may be limited to a single dose per flask. I'm not sure what it means, meanwhile, that you can only shape the matter once each round. If you can carry like 20 of them and apply the wisdom check down the line sequentially in a single round despite that, then it works fine, but if not then it seems this plan won't work in battle (unless you can predict the timing on that battle ridiculously well, or otherwise need only a first level summoning spell). So, on further analysis, I'm not sure on this one.

[eggynack]

Yet another three additions, all from complete champion, all of them power components. First two are the aurial sapphire, for 215 GP and the pearl of the waves, for 225 GP. These components let you quicken air and water spells respectively. And it doesn't even look like you need multiples. Utterly insane. You can just quicken a control winds or mudslide from out of nowhere, for, considering the effect, peanuts. Both get a blue rating, though I'm iffy on the pearl. My reasoning is that the pearl would definitely get blue if not for the superior sapphire (again, control winds), and it's not too overlapped in terms of spell type. Can't stress enough how amazing these items seem to be. The third is doppelganger's bile. To put it bluntly, it lets you extend shapechange for 95 GP. And that's about it. Really strong effect that I think any druid would really like at that level, but it's obviously super narrow due to the high level requirement. As a note for the future, I'm planning to maybe add divine presence, also from complete champion, which grants most likely a +5 to intimidate, and sometimes a +10, for 10 minutes/level. Face effects like that are pretty rare on a druid. I think it's alright for most druids, as a way to diversify your face portfolio a bit, and quite good on a half-orc druid, because you sometimes get intimidate as a class skill.

Edit: Added divine presence. Seems really important to the entire concept of druid facery, because it gives you an edge in a whole other face skill. The "You get diplomacy, some animal interaction capacity, and really rare enchantment," argument for druid face tactics always feels a bit wanting. I'ma add a mention of this spell to the face entry for filling roles as a result.

[namo]

Great handbook!

1) Feat-wise:
- alongside Reserves of Strength, I'd mention Elder Giant Magic (Secrets of Xendrik 135) whose prerequisites are somewhat easier to meet and which is also useful for pre-buffing.

- I'm surprised you didn't mention Rapid Spell (Complete Divine). While it's not a must-have, it mitigates the biggest downside of summons: that you're a sitting duck and risk losing the spell if attacked.
The Ring of the Beast compensates the level increase, and you can apply it spontaneously: casting a summon becomes a full-round action, worse than standard but much better than 1-round since you won't be interrupted.
Since you can apply it spontaneously, you get to decide when you're in danger and need it.
And of course your summons can act right away, so it's a win in action economy too.
edit: I see there's some discussion it of it above. But the fact that you can use it spontaneously is key.

2) Regarding Desmodu Bats, their entry in the MM2 states:
"A silence spell negates this ability and forces the bat to rely on its weak vision, which has a range of 10 feet."
I fear that if the DM were to keep that text, it would be crippling in many situations.
But perhaps it's a 3E-ism that went away in 3.5E? I didn't see this canceled in the MM2 update, though. I didn't check the 3E MM bat and compare it to the 3.5 one.

3) Regarding mental actions (Thoon Elder Brain): see the paralyzed condition. You can take a mental action while paralyzed, but you can't cast spells (unless you make them Stilled and Silent and they don't need material components).
Some items require only mental activation (in the MIC in particular). In a gestalt game, you could use it to manifest powers. But in most games the extra mental action is likely to get be wasted on a druid.

A question/request for more regarding summons: do you recommend to always take 1 animal from the level list? When/which creatures would you consider using with the "1d3 creatures from the N-1 spell" option?

[eggynack]

1) Feat-wise:
- alongside Reserves of Strength, I'd mention Elder Giant Magic (Secrets of Xendrik 135) whose prerequisites are somewhat easier to meet and which is also useful for pre-buffing.
Maybe. I really like the cap breaking element of reserves though, and the prerequisite on reserves is pretty trivial.


- I'm surprised you didn't mention Rapid Spell (Complete Divine). While it's not a must-have, it mitigates the biggest downside of summons: that you're a sitting duck and risk losing the spell if attacked.
The Ring of the Beast compensates the level increase, and you can apply it spontaneously: casting a summon becomes a full-round action, worse than standard but much better than 1-round since you won't be interrupted.
Since you can apply it spontaneously, you get to decide when you're in danger and need it.
And of course your summons can act right away, so it's a win in action economy too.
You can only apply it spontaneously on spells with a greater than one round casting time. SNA doesn't fall into that category. I am considering including it now for a completely separate reason, however. Before, one of my main arguments against this was that quickening some SNA is about as interesting as quickening any other spell. With those power components I just found, any air or water spell is a better quickening target than anything outside those categories, and that makes rapid quickened air elementals really interesting and viable. Granted, even that small subset of spells has some things that are great to quicken, but the find definitely ups the interest level of rapid spell.


2) Regarding Desmodu Bats, their entry in the MM2 states:
"A silence spell negates this ability and forces the bat to rely on its weak vision, which has a range of 10 feet."
I fear that if the DM were to keep that text, it would be crippling in many situations.
But perhaps it's a 3E-ism that went away in 3.5E? I didn't see this canceled in the MM2 update, though. I didn't check the 3E MM bat and compare it to the 3.5 one.
The text is definitely there. Still, the underlying operation there is somewhat weird. The ability to see normal-style, after all, is something you have in your normal form. Nothing indicates that you lose that when adopting a new form. Taking on the blindsense ability with enhance might mean you inherit the crappy vision, but you might still have your normally ranged vision. Also, here's a weird aspect. What if you're not silenced? Do you then not have to rely on that weak vision, meaning you maintain your solid normal vision? It's all kinda weird.


3) Regarding mental actions (Thoon Elder Brain): see the paralyzed condition. You can take a mental action while paralyzed, but you can't cast spells (unless you make them Stilled and Silent and they don't need material components).
Some items require only mental activation (in the MIC in particular). In a gestalt game, you could use it to manifest powers. But in most games the extra mental action is likely to get be wasted on a druid.
Paralyzed specifies that you are bound to purely mental actions. Thoon elder brain doesn't have that "pure" aspect, aside from an example of what you can do which is not binding regarding the ability as a whole.


A question/request for more regarding summons: do you recommend to always take 1 animal from the level list? When/which creatures would you consider using with the "1d3 creatures from the N-1 spell" option?
I'd tend towards higher level with everything being equal, with consideration paid to a few mitigating circumstances. Particularly, if the low level creatures have some unique capability, like a unicorn's healing, if you need to deal with things in more places at once than a single creature would be able to handle (or, rather, that single creature plus whatever resources are already available), and, notably, if you plan to make use of group buffs following the casting. Animal growth on two lower level creatures is usually better than it is on one higher level creature.

[namo]

- Spontaneous Rapid Spell: wow, I somehow managed to miss the text all these years. Nevermind then, I agree it's not worth it most of the time.

- Desmodu Bats: I'd add a warning that some of it is subejct to DM interpretation, then (the bane of optimization!)


- Regarding multiple summons: at some point, someone should probably look at this in a very mathematical way, comparing the chances of either summon hits (and delivers a payload like grappling) with their lower starting to-hit chance vs the single higher to-hit chance....

- I disagree with you regarding mental actions. They may not have a glossary entry, but it's a big stretch to allow spellcasting IMO.
Other references:
(XPH) Psi-like abilities have no verbal, somatic, or material components, nor do they require a focus or have an XP cost (even if the equivalent power has an XP cost). The user activates them mentally.
Manifesting a power is an arduous mental task.
Again, it's not like it's laid out clearly, but it approaches the problem from the other end: defining that some things are mental actions - which helps to see that most things cannot be done as mental actions.
But I don't have the time to skim books looking for more references, so I'll leave it at that.

(MIC) [Action Type] (mental): This type of item merely requires that you will it to function. Activating the item is a purely mental action. You can use the item in the area of a silence spell, while grappled, while paralyzed, and so on, as long as you have control of your own thoughts.
Whiel the text says "purely", the title is just "mental".

[Troacctid]

The desmodu bat's vision range is part of its blindsight ability. You don't gain a creature's extraordinary special qualities when you wild shape into it. It's a good reason not to use enhance wild shape with the form, but other than that, it shouldn't pose any hindrance.

[eggynack]

- Desmodu Bats: I'd add a warning that some of it is subejct to DM interpretation, then (the bane of optimization!)
I'ma just put in Troacctid's note that enhance wild shape might give you partial blindness in addition to blindsense.


- Regarding multiple summons: at some point, someone should probably look at this in a very mathematical way, comparing the chances of either summon hits (and delivers a payload like grappling) with their lower starting to-hit chance vs the single higher to-hit chance....
I dunno. Maybe. It just seems like which one to choose is so situationally dependent. A giant constrictor is probably the better choice against a single big enemy just as 1d3 giant crocodiles are better against a few separate enemies. Notably, one of the big advantages of big creature summoning is that you're not left up to the whims of chance and variance. 1d3 is probably worse than 2, at least when you, as a druid, will do well when things proceed in an average manner.

- I disagree with you regarding mental actions. They may not have a glossary entry, but it's a big stretch to allow spellcasting IMO.
Other references:
(XPH) Psi-like abilities have no verbal, somatic, or material components, nor do they require a focus or have an XP cost (even if the equivalent power has an XP cost). The user activates them mentally.
Manifesting a power is an arduous mental task.
Again, it's not like it's laid out clearly, but it approaches the problem from the other end: defining that some things are mental actions - which helps to see that most things cannot be done as mental actions.
But I don't have the time to skim books looking for more references, so I'll leave it at that.

(MIC) [Action Type] (mental): This type of item merely requires that you will it to function. Activating the item is a purely mental action. You can use the item in the area of a silence spell, while grappled, while paralyzed, and so on, as long as you have control of your own thoughts.
Whiel the text says "purely", the title is just "mental".
Well, consider the inverted argument, for a moment. In particular, if a mental action is one that can only involve the mind, then what can a physical action be than one that does not involve the mind? However, as the mind is necessary for bodily motion, this would preclude the use of such motion during your physical action round. But, because the thoon elder brain explicitly can take some action during this time span, I posit that there is produced a contradiction. Especially because, if you do allow mind use during a physical action, then what is stopping you from using your mind to produce psionic effects? This, in turn, would mean that the thoon elder brain gets to use two powers a turn, which is super weird.

I think, therefore, that a physical action is one where the primary tool used is the physical body, and a mental action is one that primarily uses the mind. Some mind use during a physical action is inevitable, and some body use during a mental action is possible, though not inevitable. I think it's a reasonable reading, if perhaps not the only one possible.

Edit: Basically, I think that mental and physical actions act as something of a partition for actions. Any given action is either mental or physical, so casting, which is clearly not physical, is mental. I don't think the alternative even fits the intent of the creature, as the idea that the thoon elder brain just wouldn't be able to cast spells at all seems weird.

[jdizzlean]

Holy crap,

I just read that entire thing. That is a work of total commitment, tyvm for doing that, i have a much better grasp on my druiding options.

[jdizzlean]

update for your booK:

in researching summon fey, a lvl 1 spell, you have it listed as saying you can summon anything w/ HD equal to or lower than the spell level used to cast it, but the source states it is CR rating, not HD, so summoning a 1HD pixie is actually a CR of 4 or 5 depending on abilities so you wouldn't be able to do that at lvl 1




http://www.kenzerco.com/Orpg/kalamar/KPG11_spells.pdf

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Pixie

sad day for the cheese meter

[eggynack]

update for your booK:

in researching summon fey, a lvl 1 spell, you have it listed as saying you can summon anything w/ HD equal to or lower than the spell level used to cast it, but the source states it is CR rating, not HD, so summoning a 1HD pixie is actually a CR of 4 or 5 depending on abilities so you wouldn't be able to do that at lvl 1

Not sure how valid that is as a source, because KoK is super weird, and the original source does in fact list it as HD, but it has some potential value add. You lose pixies, mostly, but you get more efficiency on stuff like dryad, shadar-kai, satyr, and the spriggan. Also, grig and nixie are still around and doing nice stuff.

Edit: To be clear on why it's weird, here's my understanding of the situation. Kenzer Co is not, in the general case, a first party resource for 3.5. It was only in the context of this one weird book that they happened to get the kinda licensing they need to act as a first party resource. It's thus like dragonlance, in that you're only really allowed to reference this one book, and anything else in kalamar is strictly off the table. So, the question at hand is whether an update to the book is considered first party, because it exists strictly in conjunction with a legal book, or third party, because it is not under the same sort of license that the base book is under. I feel like the strict rules answer might be that it doesn't count, while a more reasonable analysis would say that it does count. I might put in something at the top like, "If you're using the possibly not legal update..." and then have some optimization advice given that premise below what I already have. Because, again, KoK is super weird.

[Rebel7284]

I have been thinking about Druid and gestalt, and I am fairly convinced that some of the best gestalts for a druid involves making a bunch of dips.

For example:
Chaotic Neutral
Druid 20 //
Cloistered Cleric 1/Spiritual Lion Totem City Brawler Barbarian 1/Hit and Run Fighter 1/Totemist 2/Fist of the Forest 1/Shiba Protector 1/Warshaper 5/Unarmed Swordsage 2/Chameleon 2/Hierophant 4

So yeah, 10 classes. While there are a bunch of prerequisite feats here, most of those are common feat taxes that can easily be granted by items or magical locations.

Feats:
1. Able Learner
H. Persistent Spell
C. Cleric 1: Knowledge Devotion, Extend Spell(Planning Domain), +1 Free domain
Barb Bonus: Improved Unarmed Strike, Two-Weapon Fighting(Unarmed only...)
Fighter 1: Power Attack
3. Combat Expertese
Otyugh Hole: Iron Will
Belt of Endurance: Great Fortitude
6. Natural Spell
Ioun Stone - Dark Blue Rhomboid: Alertness
9. Divine Metamagic[Persistent Spell]
12. Free
15. Free
Chameleon Floating Feat
18. Free

What you get on top of druid:
- Pounce in all forms
- Arms in all forms and two additional claw attacks
- IUS and TWF with at least 1d8 base damage
- +2 Initiative
- Dex to damage against flat footed opponents
- Wis (assuming Swordsage is made to work sanely) and Con to AC
- Wis to attack and damage
- All Warshaper goodies
- The amazing flexibility of the floating feat
- Hierophant choices including the ability to share wildshape with your party

Some other possible dips:
Wizard 1: Abrupt Jaunt or Summoning as a standard action, Bonus Fighter Feat
Sacred Exorcist/Contemplative/Holt Warden: the usual
Fighter 2: another bonus Fighter Feat
Monk 2: Invisible Fist, more bonus feats, replaces swordsage/barbarian

[eggynack]

Yeah, that's pretty close to the conclusion I came to, though I never took the time putting it together into a cohesive build. A lot of my entries in that section read like that. It makes sense, given how top heavy things tend to be on the melee side of things, and given also that a solid method is putting together a set of passive bonuses like that. One thing I have been meaning to add, on that account, is prestige classes akin to the ones you've listed. Listing something like, say, fist of the forest doesn't make sense in the prestige classes section, but it doesn't make too much sense to not list it as an arbitrary gestalt option. So, yeah, it's a good philosophy as applies to druid gestalting, and I think that what I have is consistent with that, if not necessarily complete.

Still, while it's a good route, I'm not all that convinced that it's just the best route. All those benefits you mentioned are quite strong, but can they compare with anything that'll consistently allow you to screw with the action economy, thus maximizing the utility of your spells? The thing you seem to be angling towards to compete with that is the cleric dip for DMM persist, but I contend that the feat actually isn't as strong on a druid. It's good, but it's not the same as really direct supreme active capability. Hitting really hard can only get you so far. Also, pretty sure the wizard rapid summoning ACF doesn't cover SNA.

So, yeah. Might get around to listing some of those gestalt dip options, because it's a good idea. Unlikely to say something in the opening like, "If you're going to gestalt, what you really want on your secondary side is as many melee dips as possible, and anything else you'd do with those levels is somewhat inferior to such a plan." Pretty unlikely also to list stuff like contemplative. That's stuff you could easily be doing on your druid side, so why aren't you just doing that? You're basically giving up a fancy level of whatever for some wild shape and animal companion advancement. Really gotta think a gestalt level has to be around or above that level.

[sleepyphoenixx]

There's lots of different ways to approach gestalting on a druid.

Melee is certainly one option, if not the one i'd choose. IMO druids already do fine in melee, given the right choice of form. Or summon. Or animal companion. Or all three together most likely.
Sure, it looks good on paper. Big numbers. But do you actually need more melee damage? The good melee forms already come with big numbers built in.
There's also the fact to consider that melee is the dumb option in d&d.
Why would i take my considerable spellcasting might and then use half my build to turn it into hitting things when i could summon tornadoes/tsunamis/volcanos/Orglash Storm Elementals instead?
And even if you go that route (be it fear of AMF or whatever) i'd say that going for a ToB build would be more effective than just dumping some more numbers on your WS forms. Because as i said, WS forms already do fine in melee even on a pure druid, and i'd take maneuvers over pounce and some extra damage any day.

You could also go for action economy shenanigans.
Psionics is undisputed king for that (Synchronicity, Anticipatory Strike, Schism and Temporal Acceleration) and also grants access to Metamorphic Transfer, which is especially interesting for Aberration WS users.
Or you could go with Swiftblade for the extra action every round and massive defensive bonuses, with wizard spells like the Celerity line, Mind Blank etc. as the cherry on top.

The third options is going for defensive and utility dips.
How about 2 levels of Witch Slayer (which is near effortless to qualify for) for Mettle? 2 levels of Heir of Syberis so you qualify for Mark of the Dauntless and Mark of the Stars?
Get some rogue levels for better ref saves and Evasion (and skillpoints). Pick up some stealth skills and Hide in Plain Sight.
Get some Earth Dreamer for Earth Glide and the ability to see through earth and stone. Pick up a level of Mindbender and Mindsight.

[eggynack]

Melee is certainly one option, if not the one i'd choose. IMO druids already do fine in melee, given the right choice of form. Or summon. Or animal companion. Or all three together most likely.
Sure, it looks good on paper. Big numbers. But do you actually need more melee damage? The good melee forms already come with big numbers built in.
There's also the fact to consider that melee is the dumb option in d&d.
Why would i take my considerable spellcasting might and then use half my build to turn it into hitting things when i could summon tornadoes/tsunamis/volcanos/Orglash Storm Elementals instead?
And even if you go that route (be it fear of AMF or whatever) i'd say that going for a ToB build would be more effective than just dumping some more numbers on your WS forms. Because as i said, WS forms already do fine in melee even on a pure druid, and i'd take maneuvers over pounce and some extra damage any day.
To be fair to dips, those dip oriented builds offer a bunch of more utility and defense oriented stuff. Totemist, swordsage, cleric, and chameleon clearly have some inclination towards interesting abilities that a non-melee druid would be interested in. On the other side, a barbarian dip might be dense enough to be worth it even if going solid ToB, and warshaper has some meaningful combat advantages over ToB. The more direct combat and less insane options are more iffy.



The third options is going for defensive and utility dips.
How about 2 levels of Witch Slayer (which is near effortless to qualify for) for Mettle? 2 levels of Heir of Syberis so you qualify for Mark of the Dauntless and Mark of the Stars?
Get some rogue levels for better ref saves and Evasion (and skillpoints). Pick up some stealth skills and Hide in Plain Sight.
Get some Earth Dreamer for Earth Glide and the ability to see through earth and stone. Pick up a level of Mindbender and Mindsight.
Not a big fan of rogue. Seems like a mostly worse version of monk at the evasion thing, worse than factotum at the skills plus snazzy benefits thing, and only useful in this weird intersection of the two qualities. Witch slayer is interesting though. Mettle lines up really well with a druid's saves. Cha focus isn't great, cause I'd otherwise be vaguely interested in the momentary disjunction thing and the smite thing would be slightly better, but yeah, mettle is nice. Heir is also somewhat interesting. The caster level or bonus feat thing is super weird when gestalting with a caster though, cause you seem to get nothing, and, along those lines, it's a pretty feat heavy plan in general. There's a lot to like about it though. The SLA is nifty, and, while I'm not super familiar with dragonmarks, it looks like this would allow access to dragonmark spells, particularly dragonblood beast, as well as fully charged mark of the wild. Earth dreamer doesn't seem all that much better in a gestalt than it does on a standard druid, so if I were to include it, it'd likely be as a standard prestige class (and it's a kinda mediocre one, I think). Mindbender has an arcane caster level requirement. It'd probably already be in the prestige class section if it weren't.

So, that'd be a maybe to probably on including witch slayer and heir when/if I get around to expanding the gestalt section. Witch slayer is an easy write, so it may pop up before some others.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Not a big fan of rogue. Seems like a mostly worse version of monk at the evasion thing, worse than factotum at the skills plus snazzy benefits thing, and only useful in this weird intersection of the two qualities. Witch slayer is interesting though. Mettle lines up really well with a druid's saves. Cha focus isn't great, cause I'd otherwise be vaguely interested in the momentary disjunction thing and the smite thing would be slightly better, but yeah, mettle is nice. Heir is also somewhat interesting. The caster level or bonus feat thing is super weird when gestalting with a caster though, cause you seem to get nothing, and, along those lines, it's a pretty feat heavy plan in general. There's a lot to like about it though. The SLA is nifty, and, while I'm not super familiar with dragonmarks, it looks like this would allow access to dragonmark spells, particularly dragonblood beast, as well as fully charged mark of the wild. Earth dreamer doesn't seem all that much better in a gestalt than it does on a standard druid, so if I were to include it, it'd likely be as a standard prestige class (and it's a kinda mediocre one, I think). Mindbender has an arcane caster level requirement. It'd probably already be in the prestige class section if it weren't.


On Heir of Syberis, another thing apart from the spells to consider is that it gives you access to quite a few unique magic items.
Of particular interest is Dragonmark Rod (which will let you use the powers of the lesser versions of your dragonmark) with the combo of Collar of Wild Bond (which makes the Dominate Animal power of the lesser Mark of Handling permanent) and the Scepter of Wild Dominion (which lets your dragonmark abilities affect magical beasts).

Want to have a pet Tarrasque? Now you can, for 2 levels in Heir of Syberis and 47,000gp. Or you could just use it on the animals you've awakened for free with the power of the Greater Mark of Handling.
Additional pets come at 5,000gp each for an extra collar, which is quite affordable at higher levels.

[Troacctid]

Want to have a pet Tarrasque? Now you can, for 2 levels in Heir of Syberis and 47,000gp.
The Tarrasque also has loads of spell resistance and a high Will save, so good luck getting the spell to stick with your piddly dragonmark caster level and save DC keyed off a dump stat.

[eggynack]

On Heir of Syberis, another thing apart from the spells to consider is that it gives you access to quite a few unique magic items.
Of particular interest is Dragonmark Rod (which will let you use the powers of the lesser versions of your dragonmark) with the combo of Collar of Wild Bond (which makes the Dominate Animal power of the lesser Mark of Handling permanent) and the Scepter of Wild Dominion (which lets your dragonmark abilities affect magical beasts).

Want to have a pet Tarrasque? Now you can, for 2 levels in Heir of Syberis and 47,000gp. Or you could just use it on the animals you've awakened for free with the power of the Greater Mark of Handling.
Additional pets come at 5,000gp each for an extra collar, which is quite affordable at higher levels.
It's definitely kinda worth looking into (kinda cause there's only so much attention I can pay to wide spanning gestalt optimization). I tended to ignore dragonmark stuff, cause it seemed somewhat inaccessible. Gotta say though, if I'm going heir of syberis, the mark of handling is pretty far from where I'd end up, cause the SLA's kinda suck. Passage, sentinel, maybe detection, it reads a bit like an initiate feat you take at really high level. Maybe this 50k GP tarrasque plan makes it worth it, but as Troacctid notes, anything seriously worth having is going to be hard to collar. But yeah, dragonmarks ahoy.

[eggynack]

I'm three updates deep now in edit form, which is usually my cut off for just making the updates a post, so I'ma do that. I added witch slayer, warshaper, and hierophant, because they're all pretty easy to write and all seem to belong there. I'm probably not going to add shiba protector, because it feels like you get most of what you're spending a feat, a level, and some other resources for with intuitive attack, and that's not even a feat typically worth taking. It's plausibly I'd add it as a thing particularly to point out that I think it's mediocre, because the whole ability mod stacking thing is vaguely appealing, but I tend to be a bit hesitant to add things for that purpose. Undecided on barbarian. It's a dense dip, no doubt about it, but the things it's dense with aren't that exciting. Heir is prolly gonna take awhile, because it's complicated and junk. Kinda reminds me of the binder entry, where I wound up doing some relatively intensive research for such an out of the way topic. Gotta say, gestalt has been perhaps the most troublesome section to write.

[Rebel7284]

I'm probably not going to add shiba protector, because it feels like you get most of what you're spending a feat, a level, and some other resources for with intuitive attack, and that's not even a feat typically worth taking.

Adding Wisdom to attack AND damage (and not only weapon damage either) vs. replacing Strength with Wisdom for only weapon attacks is a pretty big difference. With that said, I agree that the feat tax does make it a difficult class to slot in.

[eggynack]

Adding Wisdom to attack AND damage (and not only weapon damage either) vs. replacing Strength with Wisdom for only weapon attacks is a pretty big difference. With that said, I agree that the feat tax does make it a difficult class to slot in.
Fair argument. Makes it somewhat more worth consideration, though I'm still not a fan of the whole spending feats for decent additional punching power thing, and even less of a fan of that plus the level.

[daremetoidareyo]

Found something that my cursory searching didn't unearth:

A 5th level druid spell from the standing stone Adventure page 32

Level: Drd 5
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: One day
Range: Touch
Target: Tiny or Small animal touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

You transform a Tiny or Small animal into a sentient humanoid resembling a halfling or human, respectively. To succeed, you must make a Will save (DC 10 + the target's HD). The newly created faux human has 3d6 Intelligence, +ld3 Charisma, and becomes a 1st-level commoner, expert, or warrior (your choice). Faux humans can speak Common but do not have the ability to communicate with other animals. Faux humans (or faux halflings) are of the humanoid type. Spells that affect animals do not affect animals transformed into faux humans. Faux humans appear identical to humans (or halflings), though they sometimes exhibit behavior reminiscent of their original form.

Note: This spell must be cast within a ring of the standing stones that surround Ossington.

[Troacctid]

Note: This spell must be cast within a ring of the standing stones that surround Ossington.
That probably puts a bit of a damper on it.

[sleepyphoenixx]

That probably puts a bit of a damper on it.
Where the hell is Ossington?
Is the adventure set in a specific world or is it standalone?

If Ossington exists in your campaign world you could use Acorn of Far Travel.
Or just plant a Feather Token:Tree there as a target for Transport via Plants.

But that still leaves the question what you're going to do with a bunch of level 1 NPC classes that you apparently have no particular control over.
It's a nice curiosity but i can't really see a way to abuse the spell.

[eggynack]

That probably puts a bit of a damper on it.
Yeah, that mirrors my thinking on it. I've never been sure how much to care about these really game specific options. Also, doesn't look like you have control of the faux-human, so the utility may be limited eitherror way.

[DogBoy]

Hey, I was just reading through your guide while preparing spells for my upcoming druid and I noticed that you had wall of water labeled as the Spell Compendium version, but the wall of water you were actually talking about was the original Sandstorm version. Was just wondering what was up.

[eggynack]

Hey, I was just reading through your guide while preparing spells for my upcoming druid and I noticed that you had wall of water labeled as the Spell Compendium version, but the wall of water you were actually talking about was the original Sandstorm version. Was just wondering what was up.
Probably just assumed they were the same, cause honestly, they're super similar. Unfortunately, the way they're different is that the SpC version removes a lot of the utility of the sandstorm version, in that you can walk through it where the original forced swim checks. Also the lack of save. Duration's nice, but that tends to be relatively irrelevant on this kind of spell, as is the increased durability. So, in summary, looks like I'ma drop it. Nice catch.

Edit: A decently likely reason is that I had the entry set up, cause I've heard the spell talked about, and I kept not adding it because it seems kinda like crap. Then there was a not-crap version, and obviously that's a thing worthy of more enthusiasm, so I used that sweet spell as the basis for the description.

[Troacctid]

Here's a interesting 5th level spell: Ice Dragon (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20020125a). It creates 1 medium animated object per 5 levels and lasts for 1 hour/level. Not the strongest minions in the world, but the duration is pretty nice.

[eggynack]

Here's a interesting 5th level spell: Ice Dragon (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20020125a). It creates 1 medium animated object per 5 levels and lasts for 1 hour/level. Not the strongest minions in the world, but the duration is pretty nice.
Yeah, that's decent. I do always love me some long duration creature having. Prolly gonna add that at some point.

[daremetoidareyo]

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030428a

Behold, crazy unbalanced thing from the archive!!!

Tainted Druid [General]

Your druidic powers are tainted by fiendish influences.

Prerequisite: You must forsake all that is good and peaceful in the natural world. Typically, this means you must be an outsider with the Evil subtype, possess the Fiendish template, or be undead. Other unique qualifiers could apply, based on the DM's discretion.

Benefit: All of your spells and abilities that normally apply to animals now apply only to animals, vermin, or beasts that have the fiendish template. You can gain a fiendish animal/beast companion with the animal friendship spell (but not fiendish vermin, since they are immune to mind-affecting magic), can summon fiendish animals/beasts/vermin with summon nature's ally spells, can awaken fiendish animals/beasts/vermin, and can increase the size of fiendish animals/beasts/vermin with the animal growth spell. You can also assume the form of a fiendish animal/beast/vermin with wild shape, although this feat does not allow you to gain any of the new form's supernatural abilities.

[eggynack]

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030428a

Behold, crazy unbalanced thing from the archive!!!

Tainted Druid [General]

Your druidic powers are tainted by fiendish influences.

Prerequisite: You must forsake all that is good and peaceful in the natural world. Typically, this means you must be an outsider with the Evil subtype, possess the Fiendish template, or be undead. Other unique qualifiers could apply, based on the DM's discretion.

Benefit: All of your spells and abilities that normally apply to animals now apply only to animals, vermin, or beasts that have the fiendish template. You can gain a fiendish animal/beast companion with the animal friendship spell (but not fiendish vermin, since they are immune to mind-affecting magic), can summon fiendish animals/beasts/vermin with summon nature's ally spells, can awaken fiendish animals/beasts/vermin, and can increase the size of fiendish animals/beasts/vermin with the animal growth spell. You can also assume the form of a fiendish animal/beast/vermin with wild shape, although this feat does not allow you to gain any of the new form's supernatural abilities.


It looks like the only thing you're really getting out of this is the wild shape forms, and that means it's a weird vermin wild shape. The spells and abilities part, the awakening part, and the animal growth part are all kinda marginal. The SNA part is weirdly undefined, with the animal companion part doubly undefined (both in that you have no idea what you're becoming and in that animal friendship isn't a thing anymore). I'm not entirely sure what this is doing that's so crazy. I could definitely be missing something though, because it's a really weird feat. Prerequisite isn't that bad though, because of necropolitan. i guess it's somewhere around the cheapest sources of vermin forms, with the extra fiendish upside?

[daremetoidareyo]

It looks like the only thing you're really getting out of this is the wild shape forms, and that means it's a weird vermin wild shape. The spells and abilities part, the awakening part, and the animal growth part are all kinda marginal. The SNA part is weirdly undefined, with the animal companion part doubly undefined (both in that you have no idea what you're becoming and in that animal friendship isn't a thing anymore). I'm not entirely sure what this is doing that's so crazy. I could definitely be missing something though, because it's a really weird feat. Prerequisite isn't that bad though, because of necropolitan. i guess it's somewhere around the cheapest sources of vermin forms, with the extra fiendish upside?

1. all of your SNA spells now summon critters with DR and SR with the fiendish template, also int 3? At int 3, they can take verbal commands and get rid of the handle animal checks.

2. Alienist? Fiendish summoning specialist to add fiends to the sna list?

3. A work around for the necessary outsider type on Brand of the 9 hells feat? This gives mark of maladomini an offswitch (just exit fiendish wildshape).

4. Actually, any ability that usually applies to animals or vermin is affected...even those that aren't druidic. Drow Judicator and lolth's boon come to mind.

Regardless, it will eventually make its way to the optimize this feat contest, which I'm sure will unearth some amazing stuff.

[Troacctid]

3. A work around for the necessary outsider type on Brand of the 9 hells feat? This gives mark of maladomini an offswitch (just exit fiendish wildshape).
How so? The fiendish template doesn't make you a devil. It doesn't even change your type or subtype.

[daremetoidareyo]

How so? The fiendish template doesn't make you a devil. It doesn't even change your type or subtype.

It grants the extraplanar subtype to those on the material planes...which sort of implies that you're an outsider.

[Troacctid]

Not really. Every creature, regardless of type, has the extraplanar subtype when it's not on its home plane.