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View Full Version : Opinions on: Rog 20 vs. Rog 16/Ftr 4



Yechezkiel
2007-05-11, 10:45 PM
Mechanically, will a straight class Rogue 20 outshine a Rogue with the last four levels as Fighter?

Here are the differences as I see them (combat-wise):

Rog 20
BAB: +15/+10/+5
+2d6 more Sneak Attack
One more (Rogue) Special Ability
(+1 more to Trap Sense, +6 total)
Saves: +6 +12 +6

Rog 16/Ftr 4
BAB: +16/+11/+6/+1
(Latronis was right->)Four Three Bonus (Fighter) Feats, access to Weapon Specialization
Ftr Armor/Weapon Proficiencies
Saves: +9 +11 +6

With Greater Two-Weapon Combat and possibly Speed weapons I'm thinking the +2d6 extra Sneak Attack will surpass the one extra attack and +1 BAB from the Ftr levels.

Ditto
2007-05-11, 10:52 PM
I'm thinking the Fighter guy might have an edge... if the 20 needs those feats and Speed weapons, then that's a weak argument. The F4 can eat those up with his four new feats and still be ahead, yes? Speed weapons are better because they up your iterative attacks, which the F4 also has for free. Add on some mithral medium armor, and the AC is moving up without eating into Dex AC. The +3 Fort isn't bad either, and the 20 having one more Rogue trick isn't that great a boon in a one-on-one situation. They're rather limited in their applications as it is.

Droodle
2007-05-11, 11:09 PM
I like the fighter/rogue build better. For a dex based dual wielder, specialization mimics two extra points of strength. In the grand scheme of things, I'd rather my rogue were inflicting two extra points of damage all the time then an extra 2d6 some of the time. Then there also the more strength based spike chain or Kusari-Gama wielding, improved feinting, tripping rogue with combat reflexes. (My favorite rogue build) Add the spring attack pipeline and whirlwind attack (available at rogue 8/fighter 4 if you're human) and you have yourself one nasty defensive fighter/skillmonkey.

Yechezkiel
2007-05-11, 11:41 PM
For a dex based dual wielder, specialization mimics two extra points of strength. In the grand scheme of things, I'd rather my rogue were inflicting two extra points of damage all the time then an extra 2d6 some of the time.

That's a solid point. I do like the proficiencies Ftr opens up as well.

The average for 8d6 isn't much different then 10d6.

TheSteelRat
2007-05-12, 12:03 AM
If you're looking for Complete Series cheese, there's a few options. At the cost of a single feat and a few other levels (no fighter though...), you can have any of the following:

Daring Outlaw from Complete Scoundrel. For a 2 level dip into Swashbuckler and a feat, you gain a 20th level Swashbuckler's Grace(+3) and Dodge(+4) bonuses, while having your Sneak Attack stack with those levels (Repeat - No Loss of Sneak Attack). If you're going for higher BAB, it's only a 3 level dip into Rogue to get 20th level rogue sneak attack (Sw 17/Rogue 3 = +19/+14/+9/+4). Since you're going mostly rogue though, you might want to consider ne more level than required in Swashbuckler for Insightful Strike, which is definitely handy if you're an Int/Dex Rogue, in exchange for +1 Trap Sense.

Swift Hunter from Complete Scoundrel. For a 3 level dip into Scout (loss of 1d6 sneak attack dice, +2/3 BAB, and a special ability) gives you a 20th level Scout's Skrimish Ability (+5d6, +5 AC). If you wait till 4th level, you even can select the feat as the Scout's Bonus Feat. Not sure on the relationship between Skirmish & Sneak Attack, but if you can't sneak attack, this would at least give you the Skirmish option. +9d6 when you can, +5d6 when you can't, but you'll still be putting people to shame. The Battle Fortitude +1 to initiative & fort saves couldn't hurt either. +10' movement and Trackless Step (equivalent to a permanent 1st lvl Druid spell) can be useful if you do a lot of outside work.

Ascetic Rogue from Complete Adventurer. This one is probably one of the higher cheese levels. For a single level dip, yes, one level of Monk, you can gain the Monk's Unarmed Combat Damage of 2d10 as a Rogue 19/Monk 1. The +2 to all saves is nice too, especially since you'd only get +1 Reflex for that last Rogue level. Sure, you're +1 BAB behind, but you've got Flurry of Blows, Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist, and +Wis to AC when unarmored. Also, it's kind of nice to think about that you can be completely unarmed, and still do 2d10 + 10d6 up to 4 times/round (excluding AoO goodness). Adding Versatile Unarmed Strike or Superior Unarmed Strike adds a good helping of cheese, but is very feat-heavy. Hard to RP though.

Not what you were looking for, but thought you'd like the first one.

Yechezkiel
2007-05-12, 12:10 AM
If you're looking for Complete Series cheese, there's a few options. At the cost of a single feat and a few other levels (no fighter though...), you can have any of the following:

Daring Outlaw from Complete Scoundrel.

Swift Hunter from Complete Scoundrel.

Ascetic Rogue from Complete Adventurer.

Not what you were looking for, but thought you'd like the first one.

No that's a lot of good info. I'm behind on the books outside of core since the 3.5 changes. TY

Latronis
2007-05-12, 12:50 AM
Actually rog16\ftr4 only gets 3 bonus fighter feats :P

Still worth it imo

TheSteelRat
2007-05-12, 12:56 AM
This is just base-class. Overall, Prestige Classes and "combined" classes like those feats have become more common and more powerful. For example, take "Master of Masks" from Complete Scoundrel. With a Rogue 19 / MoM 1, you can either
a) wear a mask for a total +11d6 sneak attack(+10 Rogue 19, +1d6 from mask) and +2 Move Silently / Hide or
b) wear a mask to give you proficiency with ALL marital and ALL exotic weapons, and get +1 Attack/Damage.

I'm sure there are better examples of this sort of optimizing.

What type of Rogue are you going for anyway?
Generalist? Combat(TWF?)?

Yechezkiel
2007-05-12, 01:12 AM
What type of Rogue are you going for anyway?
Generalist? Combat(TWF?)?

Mainly just wanted opinions on the differences. I've been pretty well convinced that between the two, Ftr/Rog has the advantage (in general).

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-05-12, 01:12 AM
I'm not sure I'd ever take that long of a dip at the expense of my precious skillpoints. I mean, a sudden decrease from 8 to 2, limited to a rather shoddy selection during that time to boot, is pretty scarring for a proper skillmonkey. You could get at least one of those desired feats, the full BAB, and a much less noticeable skill drop by using ranger instead. 'Course, my usual mesh these days is with the scout because I'd rather have the special qualities over the better combat capabilities. Especially with the aforementioned Swift Hunter feat so that I can have a rather respectable damage output, and super especially as a human with Able Learner for the ultimate skill milking.

I'm sort of a cheap-ass when it comes to abusing skills, though. My poor DM's have trouble finding creatures that don't consistently fail to find me, think I'm their king, or end up swearing undying allegiance to me. All I seem to fight halfway through a session is giant birds of some sort.

Yechezkiel
2007-05-12, 01:15 AM
I'm not sure I'd ever take that long of a dip at the expense of my precious skillpoints. I mean, a sudden decrease from 8 to 2, limited to a rather shoddy selection during that time to boot, is pretty scarring for a proper skillmonkey.

I love me skills too, my only actual Rogue to 20 was straight Rog 20. I'm just going through different ideas (waiting for a game to pickup here in NYC).

If I went with anything short of full Rogue I'd most likely make sure the last level or two was my main class so I could max out a few things with 23 ranks.

Droodle
2007-05-12, 01:16 AM
I'm not sure I'd ever take that long of a dip at the expense of my precious skillpoints. I mean, a sudden decrease from 8 to 2, limited to a rather shoddy selection during that time to boot, is pretty scarring for a proper skillmonkey.If you intersperse the fighter levels slowly into the build and prioritize the skills that take a hit, the skill point loss is actually quite negligible.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-05-12, 01:20 AM
24 skill points isn't negligible. It's an entire skill that could have been maximized.

Besides, even without the fighter levels, a human at level 20 gets eight feats. You only need three for the entire two-weapon fighting chain, and as a rogue, there really isn't much else better to spend your feats on (outside of those pretty class-crossing feats or my all-time favorite, Able Learner).

Yechezkiel
2007-05-12, 01:41 AM
You only need three for the entire two-weapon fighting chain, and as a rogue, there really isn't much else better to spend your feats on (outside of those pretty class-crossing feats or my all-time favorite, Able Learner).

I always like Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus and (at least) Dodge/Mobility.

Droodle
2007-05-12, 01:44 AM
24 skill points isn't negligible. It's an entire skill that could have been maximized.

Besides, even without the fighter levels, a human at level 20 gets eight feats. You only need three for the entire two-weapon fighting chain, and as a rogue, there really isn't much else better to spend your feats on.Meh. Just dock a couple of skills that don't need to be maximized a couple of points and you'll be fine. Do you really need to maximize appraise or gather information? Drop a few points off each of the skills that aren't matters of life and death and you'll be fine. Maybe you won't find as many neat rumors (but the bard'll probably have that covered anyway), pay a little more for your gear, and skip out on maximizing pick pocketing. No big loss. That said, I can think of lots of things the rogue could use the extra feats for.

An archer or dual wielder really benefits from specialization (which I think is more than a fair trade for 2d6 from your sneak attack, and better than what you'd get from a few Ranger levels) and a reach fighting Rogue would really benefit from the extra feats. Improved Feint coupled with Improved Trip is downright vicious, after all. With the extra attacks of opportunity from fighting at reach, a better strength bonus from using a weapon like the Kusari-Gama two handed, and the ability to whirlwind (and whirlwind trip) at level 12, coupled with not needing the full attack option in order to dish out some real damage, a reach rogue can really get nasty.

Tor the Fallen
2007-05-12, 01:46 AM
I always like Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus and (at least) Dodge/Mobility.

Mobility is more or less useless after about level 8.
The DC for tumbling without provoking AoO is only 15.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-05-12, 02:17 AM
Amongst the skills available to just a rogue, you have bluff, diplomacy, disable device, escape artist, hide, listen, move silently, open lock, search, sense motive, sleight of hand, spot, tumble, and use magic device that are pretty much always good ideas to put high skill ranks into. In total, that's 14 skills. A human rogue at 20 with a 10 in intelligence can only maximize nine. This doesn't include the situationally useful skills that you may want to base a skill monkey around or are just fun to play with, such as balance, climb, craft, disguise, forgery, gather information, intimidate, jump, or swim- you'll probably end up just putting a handful into these to avoid mishaps, but that still hampers the higher tier skill rank totals. Basically, a skillmonkey literally can never have too many skill points, as it's nigh impossible to cap yourself out of useful skills until epics. (also why I tend to play a super intelligent rogue, but this admittedly hampers my combat prowess)

Weapon focus is better for a TWF then the average fighter, but it's actually rather underpowered compared to an extra sneak attack dice. Mobility is likewise not going to pop up so much so long as you have a good tumble. Weapon finesse is a good idea, yeah. Combat reflexes and combat expertise are also nice. Dodge... well, it's good in early levels, but a single point of situation-specific AC isn't really worth the hassle unless it qualifies you for some prestige class. Within eight feats you can still manage most of this and TWF anyway. Don't forget that four levels of fighter at the tail end would also rob you of +2d6 sneak attack and a rogue special ability if you're going pure like that- which you can actually substitute for a feat as well.

Also, a four level dip in fighter only actually advances your BAB by one point. If you're looking to go for a "martial rogue" thing, the rogue with feats variant may be more your style, or perhaps the thug fighter variant.

TheSteelRat
2007-05-12, 02:42 AM
Further 1 Level Insanity - Tome of Battle Edition.

Swordsage - Shadow Hand Discipline
Single level dip gives
+1 to Initiative, Weapon Focus with dagger, sai, short sword, spiked chain, siangham, and unarmed strike.
The maneuvers available can be used for defense or small enhancement bonuses.
The main stance of interest gives you Flanking with against all opponents at least one of your allies is fighting with. This seems too good to pass up with a 19 Rogue / 1 Swordsage (Shadow Hand)

Better yet, if I read this correctly, you can use the Martial Stance Feat will let you select an additional Stance, using 1/2 your rogue levels as martial adpet levels. The one we're looking for is a 3rd level stance called "Assassin's Stance." Simple enough, it gives +2d6 Sneak Attack. So, for trading your 20th Rogue level & 1 feat, you've gained a total of +12d6 to Sneak Attack, OR, the ability to flank regardless of the position of your allies. Plus those Weapon Focuses, etc.

(Note - If I figure this correctly, you'd have to have at least 1 Swordsage level and 8 Rogue Levels to take Martial Stance and select Assassin's Stance)

If you're a Dex monkey, this gives the added benefit of access to Shadow Blade feat, which gives +Dex to damage using the above weapons, instead of +Str. If you'd like to completely ignore Strength, combine with Weapon Finese.

Shadow Blade also is a prereq for a useful Tactical Feat, Gloom's Razor.
A) If missed due to concealment, you become invisible to that attacker for 1 round
B) If you hit someone and have moved 10 ft in your turn, your next turn they're considered Flat-footed (Sneak Attack) for your 1st round.
C) Strike flanked target, make DC 20 Tumble, move as free action around without AoO.

Edit: Someone who's more familiar with the rules of Tome of Battle, but it would seem that the later one takes Swordsage, the better it gets in terms of your initiator level. So, to access the single feat (Martial Stance) for both Island of Blades & Assassin's Stance, it'd be lvl 17 as a Rogue, or you'd select Manevuers up to (17/2 + 1 = 9th lvl initiator = 5th level maneuvers/stances). That's a lot of insane optimizing... or am I totally getting this wrong here?

Edit 2: Rogue 19 / Swordsage 1 Craziness Continued

Shadow Hand Maneuvers of Interest
Cloak of Deception (2nd level maneuver) - Greater Invisibility cast as swift action, lasts till the end of your
turn. Dear lord, they're just asking for Rogue-abuse?
Shadow Garrote (3rd) - Inflict 5d6 damage up to 60' away, and target becomes flat-footed till its next turn.
Shadow Jaunt (2nd) - 50 ft teleport as standard action
Shadow Stride (5th) - Shadow Jaunt, as move action

Besides these, Diamond Mind would probably be the best.
"Wait, I can replace my crappy Will and Fort saves with a Concentration check, a skill I get as class from swordsage and can easily pump up with my 8+ skill points/lvl? Why, thank you dear sir!"

Droodle
2007-05-12, 03:39 AM
Weapon focus is better for a TWF then the average fighter, but it's actually rather underpowered compared to an extra sneak attack dice.

Also, a four level dip in fighter only actually advances your BAB by one point. If you're looking to go for a "martial rogue" thing, the rogue with feats variant may be more your style, or perhaps the thug fighter variant.In my opinion, weapon focus is worthless, but a dual wielder or archer rogue with fighter levels would be taking weapon focus in order to get to specialization...which is (arguably) more than a fair trade for the sneak attack dice (+2 damage all the times versus +2d6 sometimes is a pretty fair trade off, really). If you want a good tripping build, a fighter/rogue will do admirably. They'll hit a little less, but a lot harder, than a straight fighter of similar level when combining improved feint, improved trip, sneak attack, Combat Reflexes, and power attack. But, in order to do it, he's gonna need some extra feats...so adding fighter levels early in the build is really helpful. Usually, the best way to add the fighter levels in is to add a fighter level at level 2, 4, 7, and 9 (in order to minimize the skill point blow from the fighter levels). Sure, you lose a special rogue feat, but it's a fair trade for better fortitude saves and, say, whirlwind attack.

Incidentally, I agree with you about the Thug. When variant rules are allowed, the Thug variant is perfect for this type of build....a few more skill points, better class skills, and urban tracking...all in exchange for a single bonus feat (a fair trade for urban tracking) and medium and heavy armor proficiency (which this build isn't likely going to use, anyway).

PinkysBrain
2007-05-12, 04:17 AM
There is also the epic aspect, you can always get more rogue levels ... but never that extra attack from BAB.

serow
2007-05-12, 09:35 AM
Rogue 16/Ftr 4 is goooood ~

Get your last attack (BAB 16), nice boost to Fort saves, acceptable loss to skills (if you space out your fighter levels), 3 bonus feats.

Curmudgeon
2007-05-12, 10:27 AM
The basic tradeoff question is suspect, because there's no good reason to take Rogue 20; the level offers only +1 BAB and +1 Reflex save, and nothing that's special to Rogues. So the tradeoff should be between Rogue 19/Something Else 1 and Rogue 16/Fighter 4.

With only 1 level, Shadowdancer is the best option among core PrCs. It gives no BAB boost but +2 Reflex, and the awesome Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight ability. This ability lets the Rogue/Shadowdancer make Hide checks on each swing, in combat, right in their enemy's face! Since attacking from hiding lets the Rogue add their sneak attack damage, this is a bigger boost than anything 4 levels of Fighter can provide.

Unless Fighter is the favored class for your race, you've got the option to add different base classes than Fighter. You get a big boost from a single level of Cleric: two domains, each with their granted power (or three domains if you take the Cloistered Cleric variant, which works well because it also offers more skill points). A granted power is the equivalent of a feat (or, frequently, is a feat). Two good saves exactly shore up the Rogue's weak areas, plus Cleric spells can help a lot: Grave Strike allows the Rogue to sneak attack undead. So Rogue 19/Cleric 1 is a good choice, too.

Restate the question based on Rogue 19/Something Else 1 and suddenly Rogue 16/Fighter 4 doesn't look like such an obvious answer.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-05-12, 10:55 AM
Funny you mention the Shadowdancer- that's one of my favorite dips. In my prized all-star rogue build, I end up as a human rogue 1/scout 17/shadowdancer 2. Feats are spent on (in no particular order)- able learner, swift hunter, combat reflexes, dodge, mobility, spring attack, two-weapon fighting, and two-weapon pounce. Due to scout and shadowdancer levels, you can hide in any natural terrain or shadow instantly. Due to spring attack, you can pop out of any of these hiding places and go right back into them at will without being caught. Due to two-weapon pounce, you can use both of your weapons in the attack. Due to the fact that you were hidden before you launched the attack and you ended up moving, you get to apply both sneak attack and skirmish damage. And due to the fact that you're sort of permanently hidden during fights, your chances of being hit (especially since you skillage is phenomenal) are pretty much nil. Just never fight in a brightly lit glass room and always take out anything with scent first, as they've got the best chance of finding you. Plus, your fortitude save in this particular build is very high. Will's your only troublesome save.

Anyway, where was I? Ah, yes. Cleric's a good dip for covering up weak points, certainly. A handful of levels in wizard is actually a smart move for the intelligence-based rogue as well, or sorcerer for the charisma-based rogue (at least until you gain the invisibility spell). Barbarian is better then it looks, too. Full BAB, a speed boost, more uncanny dodge, a significant hit dice increase, rage, etc, plus it isn't as painful of a skillpoint dip as fighter. Heck, paladin can net you some very cool stuff if you don't mind the skill drain and the roleplaying restrictions.

It doesn't seem like a fighter-dipped rogue would be as useful as a skill monkey. Looks more like a higher damage output fighter with some better utility and some weaker staying power and accuracy. You know. A frenzied barbarian.

Legoman
2007-05-12, 01:02 PM
If you wanted to ToB it up and still maintain a rogue, you could always take a 1-level dip in Swordsage - get some nice utility counters and strikes (Like getting yourself a fire-elemental buddy to flank with whenever you want, gaining a throw, and also the ability to make them get a 20% miss chance)

Then, since your initiator level is 1/2 your character level in off-class, as your 9th level feat, you can get martial stance, and grab an extra +2d6 sneak attack dice with Assassin's stance.

It's not optimal, certainly not if you're opening up Tome of Battle, but if you really wanted to play a rogue, then that's a nice way to do it. You lose 1 point of BaB, but gain some nice combat tricks as well as another pair of dice, free weapon focus, and +1 to your initiative.

Take a fighter level for the feat and save bump, and you can even get into the Master of Nine PrC without too much trouble. You still have 13 rogue levels, which means that, since you're in assassin's stance, you only lose one 1d6 sneak attack, +2 trap sense, and two special abilities.

You get, by comparison 7th level maneuvers - +15d6 against flat-footed (Total 24d6), or +10d6 (+19d6) with a stun affect attached.

Which means that you traded two useless special abilities for the ability to jump around the battlefield like a crack-rabbit and behead fools like the vorpal bunny that you're to become.

EDIT: If you're taking Master of 9, you can even lose the feat spent on the stance - you'll get it anyway.

OH! And I almost forgot, since you have access to just about everything, you can get the Chaos Aura out of Devoted Spirit. Since you're rolling all those dice, why not just gain a bonus die for every 6 you roll? Come on, you deserve it!

serow
2007-05-13, 06:57 AM
One issue is that Shadowdancer requires Combat Expertise, Dodge and Mobility as prereqs. Without debating the individual merits of each feat, the issue is that not all rogue players want to take those feats, for various reasons.

TheSteelRat
2007-05-13, 11:02 AM
If your desired feat combination is thus: Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus and (at least) Dodge/Mobility.

I'd suggest

Rogue 12 / Swashbuckler 3 / Fighter 4 / Swordsage 1
Character Statistics
Only need 2 Attributes for combat: INT & DEX


Feats: 7 From Levels + 3 Fighter = 10 Total
Feats from Classes
Weapon Focus: (Multiple, based on Discipline - Shadow Hand Suggested for dagger, sai, short sowrd, spiked chain, siangham, unarmed strike)
(equivalent feat) Dodge: +4 Dodge bonus to AC
Weapon Finese
Build Requires 1)Daring Outlaw, 2) Shadow Blade(Weapon Finese / Shadow Hand weapons use Dex for Damage instead of Strength) , so 8 Feats Remaining
Suggested Feats: Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Mobility, Deft Strike (Com. Adven. = Make Spot Check against target AC, if you win, ignore Armor / Natural Armor bonuses)
Leaves 4 Feats for Freebies. (Enough to make you a Spiked Chain Trip Monkey)

Class Features of Note
All Simple / Martial / Rogue Weapon & Armor / Shield Proficiencies, but Light Armor preferred for Swashbuckler / Rogue,
Insightful Strike: + INT to Damage with Weapon Finese Weapons
Quick to Act: +1 Initiative
Trapfinding & Trapsense: +4
Sneak Attack: +8d6 (or +10d6 if in Assassin's Stance)
Improved Uncanny Dodge
Evasion
1 Rogue Special Ability
BAB = +16/+11/+6/+1
Saves: Fort +11, Reflex + 12 (+3 Grace = 15), Will +8

Honestly, instead of Fighter 4, I'd go with a Prestige Class with full BAB. You lose a feat, but you can gain a feat/level with many prestige classes, or better. For example, Exotic Weapon Master (if Spiked Chain) or Master Thrower (if you're into daggers).

Renx
2007-05-13, 12:35 PM
Someone already mentioned Able Learner. Get it. ^_^

If you're not familiar with this greatest-of-feats, it makes ALL of your skills class skills.

NullAshton
2007-05-13, 12:45 PM
Someone already mentioned Able Learner. Get it. ^_^

If you're not familiar with this greatest-of-feats, it makes ALL of your skills class skills.

For the purposes of the cost of said cross class skills. You're still limited to half the rank of your class skills.

For said rogue/fighter, I might recommend vexing flanker from PHBII(I think) along with a spiked chain? It allows you to flank with yourself, thus providing sneak attack on every attack.

TheSteelRat
2007-05-13, 02:08 PM
Able Learner allows you to spend only 1 skill point on what would be a cross-class skill. If you're multi-classing, like in the case of the Fighter/Rogue, your maximum skill ranks are equal to your character level + 3 for BOTH classes' skills. So, with your 2+INT fighter skill points, you can use it to bump up your vital Rogue skills without spending 2 points. The only skills for a Fighter/Rogue that would still be Cross-Class would be:
Concentration
Heal
Knowledge (excluding Local)
Speak Language
Spellcraft
Survival.

So, yes, it is ESPECIALLY useful for a Multi-class rogue, as you'll never fall behind in your "vital" skills (Hide, Move Silently, etc.) even if they're not on your class list. Better yet, you can use your Rogue skill points to pump up your other class' skills if they're kinda skimpy on the points/lvl. 2 levels of Rogue can make a Fighter's Ride skill go from 0 to 20 if you've got Human + INT 12, albiet at the loss of being 2 ranks behind in all your other skills. If you're a INT Rogue, this is most definitely the feat for you. I highly recommend it. With the above build I suggested for the Swordsage/Rogue combo, it's especially wonderful when you're maxing out your Concentration skill for use in Diamond Mind counters.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-05-13, 08:11 PM
Ah, Serow is right. I consistently confuse combat reflexes with combat expertise. Addendum that to my build.

And yeah, Able Learner is to a rogue what natural spell is to a druid- so mind bogglingly good that it might as well be an essential tennant.

Jack_Simth
2007-05-13, 10:25 PM
Core fun tactic with Rogues:

Two-weapon fighting and touch attacks.

If you cap out the two-weapon Fighting tree, pick up Quick Draw, and keep your UMD check and Initiative up, you can do some fun stuff (Weapon Finess, as always, helps):

Flasks of Acid and Alchemist's Fire are touch attacks, at range. Sneak attack applies with them, if you can catch an opponent flat-footed. If you can do so (which should be usually), you can Full Attack - with two-weapon fighting, you can get six attacks in (at 15th+, admittedly). Tack on those nifty Haste boots, and that's seven attacks - against a flat-footed opponent, Sneak Attack applies. Touch attacks, against most flat-footed opponents are almost nothing - AC 10 usually. So you've got seven touch attacks, at range, in the first round, with full sneak attack damage. At 20th, with your 10d6 sneak attack and the 1d6 base from the flask itself, you're looking at dealing 77d6 damage (in seven 11d6 increments). 77d6 averages 269.5 damage. Unless the target has significant resistance to your chosen attack form (which is why you have two elemental choices - Acid and Fire), or a very large number of hit points, it's pretty much dead if you win inititive. 10 (Acid) or 20 (Fire) gp per attack roll.

For close-up (when Flanking, basically) you want a high caster level Wand of Chill Touch or Produce Flame (or Extended Produce Flame - you want the Druid version, either way). Again, it's all touch attacks. In either case, it's 15 gp per attack (in the Chill Touch case, it's per successfull attack, in the Produce Flame case, it's per attempt). There's an attack roll, so they're both weapon-like spells - and thus valid for Sneak Attack. Your DM might nix two-weapon fighting with this, though, as both spells refference your hand, singular, not your hands, plural.

If you branch outside core, the ideal case is several wands of energy substituted Produce Flame at high caster levels - you target each opponent's weakness (or at least non-resistence). For things with SR, you pull out something a different (Wand of Acid Splash - you gotta love the look on the people's faces when you tell them how much damage you can do with a cantrip - even if it is only once per round) or pricy (Orb spells).